Topic: The 51st State (Page 2 of 2)

I am not worried about others taking me (wrongly) as an offensive, ignorant, vile, racist, unwanted, drug dealer, pitiful, victimized, martyrized, nazi - did I miss something? - south american guy. I said once, in another thread, I'm going to say again: I don't care about what others think of me, specially as a reason of an electronic conversation with people that barely know me (and vice-versa).

I was worried about others taking me as an offensive ... etc. ... guy by a misuse of the "the Jews" English connotation.

And history has many facets. You hear a Jew talk about Israel, you hear one side. You hear a Palestinian, you hear a different interpretation. So far, I am more convinced that the other side has better reasoning than the USA/Israel side.

[EDIT] Oops, before someone call me terrorist, let me make clear that I absolutely condemn any kind of terrorism, including policital/economic terrorism, be that said.

[This message has been edited by viol (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

---

And history has many facets. You hear a Jew talk about Israel, you hear one side. You hear a Palestinian, you hear a different interpretation. So far, I am more convinced that the other side has better reasoning than the USA/Israel side.

---

Well....that's certainly a well reasoned response. I'm glad to see that you have given so much consideration to the total situation and taken all of the posts above into consideration....

(yes, more sarcasm - so sue me....)


{{edit -

ok, to expand a little on the meaning behind my sarcasm -

If you have commited yourself to judging the situation in Israel based narrowing all of this expansive tumultuous ancient chaos down to the current political leader's "sides" and the bullshit rhetoric created by each side, then you've already relegated yourself to a position if ignorance from which it is impossible to objectively gauge the actual situation.


The things that I spoke about in my last post are niether from a "us/israel" or a "palesitnian" point of view. They are (very simplified, obviously) the general way things happened - and as they are not very flattering to anyone involved, you can't use the argument that "they wrote the history they wanted to" bullshit.

I didn't sit and listen to a jew speak about history to get my information.

Without giving some thought to the issues of the actual history of the region, you can't fairly judge the siutation as a whole.

And despite anything else, the things you said in your prior posts are still ridiculously racist (and not because of any particular word(s) used).



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

---

the things you said in your prior posts are still ridiculously racist

---

If you said they are ridiculous, I could accept (as an opinion). But by saying they are racist, you're taking one side, you get biased. Simply because I don't see my opinions and comments as racist. Certainly, we have different opinions concerning the meaning of the word "racist" and that has to do with the paranoid American culture of racism where everything seems racist, versus my South American culture where certainly what I have said would not be called as racist by most of my peers. If my generalization makes you sad again, then assume it has to do with you and me being very different persons.

Hmm, to bring a new twist to this already completely fucked-up thread:

Someone (I don´t remember who) said that the state of Israel should have been created from a part of formerly german territory after WW2 - would have made sense, wouldn´t it? Why take their homeland away from the Palestinians when it was the Germans who commited the biggest of all crimes against the Jews?

viol, what you said was racist. You clearly have a very poor understanding of the history of the Middle East. I have seen some very strong words spoken against you in this thread from people who are normally the nicest people you will ever meet. It's a rare day indeed when you hear mobrul refer to anyone as a neo-nazi f*ck. That should be an indication of just how hateful and wrong your initial comments were. I am not angry at you, I am not emotional right now, I just would ask that you please apologize for the racist things you said.

quote:

---

why America was the first country to recognize Israel as a country and why Palestine is not recognized up to now?

---

"The General Assembly of the United Nations," the broadcaster read, "by a vote of thirty-three in favor, thirteen against and ten abstentions, has voted to partition Palestine." The US favored a positive vote, but so did a majority of the United Nations at the time.

It's difficult to recognize Palestine as a state when the inhabitants of the region have not recognized it. The reason the Palestinians haven't officially recognized a Palestinian state is that by doing so, they would officially declare war on Israel. Why is that? Because the Palestinian state includes 100% the entire West Bank, Gaza, and everything that is now what we call Israel.

But that being said, the US has called for a two state solution. We favor a Jewish state and an Arab state living side by side. C*****n favored it and so does Bush.

quote:

---

why in the first place Israel was created?

---

A multitude of reasons several of which DL-44 has mentioned above. But allow me to take a different approach. Where do Italians come from? Where do the French come from? What exactly is so offensive about Jewish people having a country they call their own?

quote:

---

why the Jews, after the war, deserved a new country? Because they lost too many lives in the war and a new country would avoid such horrible events to repeat in history and because the way they lost their lives was an absurdity? One absurdity can justify another?

---

Deserved a country? What does that have to do with anything? Why not the Jews? Why shouldn't they have a place to call their own? I want to know why you think they are undeserving of a homeland.

quote:

---

why choose a piece of land that was highly prone to conflicts? The arabs never accepted the idea of Israel there, never.

---

Ummm... perhaps because it is their ancestral homeland? And did you know that a Jewish population has existed in what we call Palestine ever since there have been Jews? It's not like they just popped up out of nowhere.

quote:

---

is having the ownership of a land 2000 years ago a good reason for wanting to be the owner now?

---

It was and it is to them, yes. But if not where they are from, then where would you suggest they go? I am dying to hear the answer to that one.

The desire that the Jews return to their homeland is nothing new. Zionism is a very real movement and there were some extremely dedicated people that adhered to that view. So much so that you should keep in mind had the UN vote gone the other direction... well, just listen to how Yitzhak Sadeh put it just before the vote was read over the radio that I quoted above. He was very active in fighting for a Jewish state in the years leading up to 1947.

quote:

---

Now someone asked Sadey what he thought the result of the vote just beginning would be.
He was solemn and unsmiling. "I do not care," he said. "If the vote is positive, the Arabs will make war on us. Their war, " he said, his eyes sweeping the faces of his young officers, "will cost us five thousand lives."
In the hush that followed he added, "And if the vote is negative, then it is we who shall make war on the Arabs."

---

So just after the vote was read, Syria's UN delegate Fares el Khoury declared,

quote:

---

The Holy Places are going to pass through long years of war, and peace will not prevail there for generations.

---

I am pointing this out to show you that unrest was already in place before the UN vote to partition Palestine and there would have been war regardless of how the vote came out. If you think that the creation of the Isreali state caused this mess, then you are simply wrong and have not studied the situation.

quote:

---

if so, why don't USA give the american natives back their land?

---

What makes you think that won't ever happen? History is young.

quote:

---

why thinking as I think means that I am playing victim?

---

Because you said something incredibly racist and now you are complaining that people are attacking you for something other than that. As far as I can tell, people here like you but it seems no one knew you would say such ugly things about a group of people like you did. Criticizing the actions of the US and Israel is one thing, condemning a group of people like you did is quite another.


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

---

The difference is that in the USA the power of the Jews is so blatant that it's impossible not to notice.

you should know, specially if you are a Jew...

Individually speaking, they are fine ....But when I think not individually, I really don't like what they are and how they act.

Yeah yeah yeah, talk to Jews what they don't want to hear, and get their anger, they will start telling you that you are ignorant, blah blah.

It's part of the way Jews are.

in the US, Jews, decide the fate of a country made of 300 million people.

---

If these statements don't *define* racism.....I don't know what does.

I am one of the least 'PC' people you'll ever meet. I don't use the term racism lightly.

To actually try to deny that what said is blatantly racist is bewildering and disturning. Is it a language issue? Are you in denial? I don't get it...


I sincerely wish you would understand one point in particular:

I agree with you about the US and Israel's political dealings. I agree that Israel has acted very wrongly, and the US should not support Israel.

So stop trying to make this about people disagreeing with your stance on the Israel/Palestine situation, and wake up to the facts that we are talking about here....

Viol, you have to remember, being in America is like living in a tossed salad (cultures exist side by side)....there is no such a thing as an "American" .

American is a British, Russian, Scottish, Latin, native A., Indian, Asian blah blah etc. (you are not an idiot...at least I believe so...and I believe you know that)

Of course you wont be judged for what you said now, in Brazil...everyone(well majority) share same cultural characteristics, are all pretty much Lating folks who speak same language and uphold similar values....

Believe me, I know shitloads of Russians who are just like you. They come to America ( Or never been there)
and simply blable about it whatever comes to their mind...just like you...like if you just had nonsense running out of your mouth like daeriah

Yadda Yadda Yadda...Jew are that, Americans are that, but we Brazilians are so and so humble yadda yadda( I know you never meantioned the last part, but its pretty much how you sound)

you are just closing your eyes to a nation that welcomes you just as anybody else regardless of their race or religion for an oportunity to succeed...

What you said here was prejudice

lets look at the definition
Prejudice: An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

You judge the entire race/nationality/religion for the action of few or without knowing what the hell is going on...

I have a solution! First stop being such a cry baby. Second Pull your head out of your ass. Third apologize...

and if you want the forth...well, ignore my rant



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-27-2004).]

Sorry but I am not going to apologize.

If I am to be considered a racist, as most of you seem to agree, so be it, although I still disagree with the assertion. For me, it just happens that I am in the wrong place for exposing my views.

If you didn't like what I've already said, you'd like less what I could add to it. I really don't share the same views as you. I will return to my previous state of brainwashly measuring my words and avoiding "racist" messages. That I can do now that I learned the meaning of racist as understood here.

Are you sure you don't want to learn something? How about responding to the answers I gave to some of the questions above?


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

OK, let's examine this purely on the basis of definitions:

prej·u·dice (prj-ds)
n.

1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
2. A preconceived preference or idea.
3. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
4. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
5. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

rac·ism (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
1. One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

The definitions which appear to apply to this situation are in bold. Based on what I have just read here, this thread should have been closed a while ago...so that's what I'm going to do now. Reason being: this has escalated far beyond the point of rationality, and there are a number of racist comments being made here which are severly against the policies of this board.

This thread is dead.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 03-27-2004).]