I never owned a Mac before but I wouldn't mind getting away from microsoft.... That new powerMac G4 system looks great, but I hear the new OS X is having problems, and the system accually ships with the earlier version of the OS and it accually duel boots between them. Can anyone comment on the Mac OS problems and there general experience owning a Mac? That windows XP product activation sounds like a pain in the ass, and I'm about due for a new system... I do play games a lot, and I guess I would be kinda shafted on compatibility, but my 800mhz p3 with a geforce 3 seems to play the latest games just fine, the new G4 has a 800 also. So it seems like a good buy.
Mac is coming out with a second version of OS X. It's supposed to be way better and faster. Just wait for it.
Anyway, I feel mac is priced a little high and would wait for prices to drop some. Other then that they are great systems and I like the new look of OS X.
In my vast experience I would suggest that if you are leaving the PC platform because of Microsoft, don't waste your time. I've never had the pleasure of speaking to you before so I don't know too much about you, but if your into gaming, whats the sense? Your going to find that there just arent the same games released for OSX and your going to need to buy Virtual PC and run Windows. I currently use both platforms and have nothing but praise for both. Depending on what your using it for, both are great. I really wouldn't say OSX is better or worse then Windows Me. I've never had any real problems with either. Personally I really don't understand the whole bias that Microsoft gets. I can't think of a single program that works on so many different machines and works well as Windows. Sure it crashes. Find me a program that doesn't crash.
Of course if your also interested in web/graphic design purchasing a mac with Virtual PC isn't such a bad idea, although it could get real expensive, real fast.
Jestah! Good write up. That was exactly what I was looking for, a user opinion. Windows 2000 does run really good, It doesn't crash. I have everything set up perfect.... As MalFunkShun sugested, they are priced too high. About a grand over a simularly equiped PC. Windows XP does seem like a pain though when I upgrade, but I guess I can get over that. Great replys, thanks a lot.
You've already outlayed for a Geforce 3 and now you want to switch to a MAC??? Odd person you are.
Stick with the PC, espically if your a gamer. Firstly, there's a larger userbase for the PC and if you stick to well known hardware and you ever run into peoblems, chances are a thousand and one others have too, which means any problems are likely to be fixed quicker. Many Games are first released for Windows and if they are successful then a MAC port is made, meaning you could have to wait a while for new games on a MAC.
Also, for some obsurd reason MAC hardware is on average about 25% more expansive that PC hardware. And no, I'm not comparing CUP speeds when I say this, I refering to the general RAM and Hard Disk prices. The general reason for MAC's being more stable and more bug-free is because there are fewer companies making MAC hardware. Which means the OS doesn't have to support 1001 different variations of X card or whatever. This also maens that the companies that do make MAC hardware don't have the same kind of competion that PC hardware makers do, so the price wars are never as severe.
Furthermore, if your the kind of gamer that's big on playing game Mod's then I'd say stick with the PC. Many Mod's are OS release dependant and only get ported if they reach a rather popular state.
That being said, MAC are good. Their fast and more and more compaines are supporting MAC's in the Hardware stakes these days. MAC's are slowly being seen as good gaming machines as they are fast and recently have quite good support for 3D Accelerator Hardware. They look darn cool but it will cost you extra, and it's not just for the good looks.
But, if you have money to burn I say why the hell not! The only better thing you could do is give that money to me! heh, or spend it on some seriously insane hardware for your PC. Like an Athlon 1.4Ghz some nice fat DDR ram and a twin 21" monitor setup while your at it. Hell, may as well throw in a 9x12 Wacom and one of those Arcade at Home rigs for all your simulator games!
Wow drac! you have it all figuired out. I do want a wacom hehe, who doesn't? That was a good write up too. I bet that last system you describe would of cost about 500 less then an Apple set up... with all the extras.
Let's clarify something first, 400mhz on a PC does not equal 400mhz on a Mac, the Apple will be significantly faster. The 800mhz Mac would blow the doors off your 800mhz PC.
I've actually become a Mac user over the last two weeks, I'm now working at a Mac-based design firm and have made the switch. The machine I'm currently on is running OS 9.1 and is about as stable as my home PC with Win98. It's also an old machine that hasn't been upgraded in a while so it's a bit buggy. In a week or so I'm getting a new 867mhz G4 with 512 MBs of RAM (and twin 21's Drac, hehe) so I'll be able to tell you a bit more about speed comparisons after I play with that for a bit.
Also, as far as virtual PC, yes, buying new software is expensive, but running non-native apps on a fast machine is just dumb IMO, defeats the purpose of trying to buy a fast machine...
Well, I'm sure everyone in here knows that the two processors are very different and that Mhz (or Ghz) is not a very accurate way of measuring a processor. For more information on this, check out the Megahertz Myth over at apple.com. You might also want to check out AMDs website too.
That page from Apple's web site is plain crap. Adobe is the one that should be blamed for those results (if they are correct, but I doubt that they are), because they are not utilizing new technologies like Intel SSE and AMD 3DNOW! in their products (they only use MMX and that doesn't even work on ASUS BX chipset motherboards). Oh, and last but not least, the best PC platform for use with adobe is AMD (full story here).
DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Stockholm, Sweden Insane since: Mar 1994
posted 08-19-2001 13:20
Well, from what I understood, Gix, you seem to be thinking about buying a Mac, but nothing was mentioned about throwing away your PC, correct? I've been running both Mac and PC for years now, it's a *way* sensible way to work, especially if you're planning on being anything like a web designer. (My 2 cents, at least!)
For raw processing power, I use the RC5-65 cracking challenge software at http://www.distributed.net/ - it's a fun way to show off your idle CPU power, and a great way to benchmark your systems, one simple well-written app to take all of your CPU and crunch numbers with it. By this measurement, my 450Mhz Mac is about 60% faster than my 850Mhz PIII, go figure. I've been thinking about maybe setting up a special Asylum team for cracking RC5-64, anyone interested? It'd be a fun way to show off our processing might, heh.
OK; I just set up a new team, the Ozone Asylum. FWIW, I'm crunching keys at a sustained rate of 15,090 KKeys/sec between all of my machines, go beat that, hah! If you want to join, sign up as a single user, and run the app on all of your machines as that user. Once your stats get into the database, you'll be able to join the team (after you've logged in) by following this link... http://stats.distributed.net/pjointeam.php3?team=885184470 - and once the stats get recorded tomorrow you can check your ranking at http://stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tmsummary.php3?team=885184470 (Note! These urls probably won't work yet, they need a day to register the team.)
PS: My 2 macintoshes account for 80% of my keys cracked. I love my Mac!
I'm not sure how accurate the page I've listed is, but I can vouch from my own personal experience that my 733Mhz G4 destryoys my 1.4Ghz Pentium 4 processor. From what I gather though, Gix isn't looking to run Photoshop but play games. I could be a 100% wrong though, I don't really know Gix and I've never had the actual pleasure of conversing with him (or maybe her) other then in this thread. If he's interested in doing both, I would suggest getting the mac and keeping the PC specifically for games if he wants to. I know theres a few people who run both platforms at the same time.
Jay
[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 08-19-2001).]
From: The northeast portion of the 30th star Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 08-19-2001 19:47
Cool Doc.. I'm in. Downloaded the app and am trying to figure out the configuration stuff now.. I'm clueless bout scripting and such. Benchmarked my machine.. Had IE, OE, PS and IR running at the time, prolly shoulda shut them down for this.
better than mine (amd k6-II 500)
í got 17 secs or so...
DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Stockholm, Sweden Insane since: Mar 1994
posted 08-20-2001 00:00
Whoa, cyoung, that's an impressive score! My Celeron 850Mhz is getting about 2.3 million keys/sec, you must have some machine! Do this now, go to the configuration (text) window and choose #2). Now take choice #9) Load-work precedence ==> RC5,OGR=0,DES=0,CSC=0
"RC5,OGR=0,DES=0,CSC=0", that's the ordering it should work in. This makes it do the current RC5, but ignore all the others. (Why spread ourselves too thin? ) I've got this running in the background on a whole bunch of my machines, and I just use the same email for all of them. I can generate about 15 million/sec with most of the machines thinking about it. It's kind of neat figuring just how much horsepower you can generate, fun!
Dam, I should of check on this post earlier. Okay Jestah, here is what I plan on doing with a new machine. I'm getting older, and I hardly play games any more. I'm very interested in art. I use photoshop almost every night to learn it, and create more art. My p3 system is starting to show its age, and I began shopping around for a new computer. The G4 Mac caught my attention. I am going to keep my current PC. I accually have a monitor that works with 2 computers at the same time, so that will work out great. I picked up an old version of 3ds Max, which looks awesome, hopefully that will run on a Mac also, but I doubt it. Doc that benchmarking system looks cool, I'm going to check that out. FIG you must let me know about your experience with your new mac! I'm extremely interested. But, I think I'm going to wait till the OS X is ready to go...
From: The northeast portion of the 30th star Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 08-20-2001 03:03
Doc- It's the 466 G4 (digital audio version) single processor w/640 RAM etc. I put it to work on only the RC5 a while ago. Probably done 60 or 80 packets so far (haven't looked in a while)... It runs in the background nicely, don't even know its there. I'll try to figure out how to download enough to keep it busy while I sleep at night/ work in the day since I'm on a dial up and kinda need a phone line too. Can't see my stats yet but I'll sign up for the team as soon as I do.
Cheers-
-cyoung
edit: just a thought.. maybe this should be its own topic so folks that aren't interested in the whole Mac vs. PC thing might look too. More asylumites=more power!
[This message has been edited by cyoung (edited 08-20-2001).]
From: Seatte, Warshington, USA Insane since: Dec 2000
posted 08-20-2001 22:03
A little off the topic, but I've been reading a lot of mobo reviews lately and ran across the Shuttle AK-31. Now if you are interested in an AMD, this is the board baby! Not to mention it's very affordable and easy to overclock. If you plan on spending over 2Gs on a computer, you'll probably get the most out of your money with a PC. Don't get me wrong, Macs are awesome machines, but the software for them are mostly design based, not so much games.
On the other hand, I've read a TON of articles about how the new OS X is just a ramp up for games on the mac, supposedly they are going to hit the gaming industry hard for mac OS support. Something to think about.
From: Seatte, Warshington, USA Insane since: Dec 2000
posted 08-22-2001 00:44
Max, normally I would agree, but Shuttle has definatly stepped up to the plate with this one. There is no doubt they have made a board that will give Asus, Abit, FIC, etc... a run for their money.
Shuttle is not the only one that can give ASUS & Abit a run for their money... There are also a lot of other companies (some are even better than Shuttle), like MSI, Gigabyte, Acorp, EPOX, AOpen, Soyo, etc. Anyway, if I was buying a new & already expensive computer, I would go with the ASUS, the real deal, because why settle with some other entry-level/cheaper motherboard? And last, but not least, not all reviews are accurate (some of them are paid to look good).
From: Seatte, Warshington, USA Insane since: Dec 2000
posted 08-22-2001 21:27
Max, come on. Those are pretty week arguments By the way, how many Shuttle boards have you owned? And do you really think all the AK31 reviews are paid off? Did you read any of those reviews? Just razzin' ya. Seriously, I've done a lot of research (not just reviews) on this board and it's components (the curse of an electronics engineer), it's well planned, well layed out (unlike a lot of boards), and very well implemented. You can dis shuttle all you want for their past performance, but this board is a solid competitor. This isn't an entry level board by the way, we're talking VIA VT8366/8233 chipset, ATA100 support, the standard VIA AC97 sound chip, 6 pci + 1 agp + 4!!! DDR DIMM slots (up to 4GB of RAM), and support for Duron/Athlon/MP CPUs from 900MHz up. Hardly entry level. Even if it were, it's the fastest AMD mobo that I've seen to date!
Well, like I said in the original post, it's a little off topic anyway, just trying to give the guy some options to stretch the value of his buck. It just happens this board is the best I've seen for the money, for what he's looking for (gaming).
To answer your first question, I owned two Shuttle boards in the past
Anyway, all AMD motherboards are based on the same VIA chips (north/south bridges, main chipset, etc.), but not all manufacturers use the same electric components (bigger electrolytes, etc.) And that's where manufacturers can save a few bucks (to make the board cheaper, but lowering the quality). I experienced this a long time ago when I bought Chaintech 6BTA board (BX chipset), just because it was much cheaper than ASUS P2B-F, but it died after one year of use and since then I only use ASUS products. I can go forever like this, but let's get to the point...
--- start copy/paste from conclusion page ---
This highly comprehensive test at our lab spanned a period of almost two weeks and shows us the following: For users who are looking for a fast but stable board, we recommend the MSI (MS-6380) and Soltek (SL-75DRV). The Asus A7V266 isn't a bad choice either - by already supporting the AMD Athlon with the Palomino core, it is well equipped for upcoming technology.
--- end copy/paste from conclusion page ---
--- start copy/paste from conclusion page ---
So, if you need high performance and the price doesn't matter much for you it's better to pay attention to the ASUS A7V266, but if you want a solution with an ideal price/quality ratio, than look at the Soltek 75DRV and EPOX 8KHA.
--- end copy/paste from conclusion page ---
I rest my case - ASUS - the best there was, the best there is and the best there ever will be. They have been very long on this market and they really deserved their reputations with tons of high quality hardware...
DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Stockholm, Sweden Insane since: Mar 1994
posted 08-22-2001 23:29
To get the subject back a drift or two, I can respect anybody who decides that one OS is just ... not enough. To re-drift, I'm still waiting for some more members for the Asylum cracking team, join at http://stats.distributed.net/pjointeam.php3?team=885184470 once you've got some individual stats in the DB!
Your pal, -doc-
OZONE Asylum completed 5,802 blocks yesterday at a sustained rate of 18,026 Kkeys/second!
OZONE Asylum is ranked #832 for yesterday!
The odds are 1 in 8,915 that this team will find the key before anyone else does.
[This message has been edited by DocOzone (edited 08-22-2001).]
From: Seatte, Warshington, USA Insane since: Dec 2000
posted 08-23-2001 00:50
Thanks for the links Max, very informitive, however you forgot to add the next line after your first quote...
quote:However, the Asus A7V266 only achieves its solid performance because it has a higher factory-set clock rate than its rivals.
Anyone can up the clock rate and get better performance. And you forgot to mention that the ASUS board is TWICE the price! And that it bairly beat out the AK31 in some of the benchmark ratings. Given the price difference I don't even know how you can compair the two.
Forget that though, you seem to think I'm bashing Asus or something. Not the case, Asus is definatly without a doubt a leader in mobos and shuttle is not. But you can't discredit all of their boards based on a bad experience you had with another oem. I've personally never had problems with shuttle boards.
By the way, do you know why your chaintech board died on you? Are you sure it was the cheaper electrolitic caps? Do you know the root cause? I repair comuters all day and have often found the cause of problems with the motherboard to be linked with one of two things... the power supply, or a connection to the outside world (com, lpt, RJ11, etc). Just a thought.
-D
Anyone can up the clock rate, but not anyone can achieve stability. And as far as price is concerned, at the top of this thread, there was small discussion about high end / quality computer system (and that Gix, who started this thread should buy such computer instead), and as I've said if I was going to buy a new & already expensive computer (i.e. gigantic monitor, tons of RAM, GeForce 3 with all extra gadgets, two extremely large HDDs, etc.), why cut corners and buy cheaper motherboard?
Oh, and I'm not discrediting other manufacturers, as I've said above there are also some good ones (like Abit, MSI, EPOX, FIC), but my personal favorite will always be ASUS. And one more thing, recently in computer magazines from my country, authorized Shuttle dealer for Serbia (PAKOM) started an ad campaign that looked very childish to me and not very professional (it was a bunch of fake testimonials with text like, "I can play Quake 3 much better now with my new Shuttle motherboard that was much cheaper than the rest of motherboards"). I know that this is probably a problem with that dealer and their marketing department, but Shuttle needs to have at least some level of control over dealers.
My Chaintech board didn't die completely, it simply doesn't work at FSBs >= 100 MHz anymore (and therefore is useless to me). I have tried everything, I even wanted to install Linux, but it refused to install with the famous "Signal 11" error message, which means that motherboard bus doesn't work. And there were not problems with power supply, since it was made by well known manufacturer MACASE.
From: Seatte, Warshington, USA Insane since: Dec 2000
posted 08-23-2001 18:19
Max, you are so stuborn That's fine though, that's why we love you :P I'm gonna drop it because I think we've both presented our sides well enough. That ad you are talking about sounds like the Geiko ads they are playing here!
quote:I'm here today with So and So, a satisfied Geiko customer to get a testimonial. So and so, can you give us a testimonial? "I think peaches canned in heavy syrup are the best" There you have it folks, a real life testimonial from a satisfied Geiko customer!
posted 08-18-2001 23:25
Max, you are so stuborn