Topic awaiting preservation: I was just thinking....

Is it murder if I smash a bug?



'Me no here. Me go bye. Leave me message. Me reply.'

Wolfen's Sig Site

that depends, are you a christian?

definitely bugacide.
how about smashing a beetle with driver and passengers?

Wolfen, if your a christian its murder and you'll burn in hell for it.

Why would it matter if you were a Christian, because if you were, then it would give you even more justification to because they don't have souls...

lol look at those post times hehehe...

Lutheran to be exact... ummm, does it help my case if it attacked me first?



'Me no here. Me go bye. Leave me message. Me reply.'

Wolfen's Sig Site

If it attacked you first then smashing it would be considered self defense

InSiDeR: I'm going to assume you're joking. The only way I could see you would get in trouble for squashing a bug is if your were a Jainist, but I'm not sure if they have a hell. In fact, I don't know very much about Jainism except that they hold all forms of life to be sacred, and I heard once that Jainist priests have people sweep the ground in front of them as they walk, lest they accidentally step on a bug. Don't know if that's actually true, but it's the kind of thing that you don't forget. At least I don't.

Suho I am not joking...

THAL SHALT NOT KILL

I think it depends on the "bug" in question...

~he said looking a bit worried and ready to scurry into a crack at first sign of danger~

. . : slicePuzzle

I think if you smashed a bug it is ok, as long as you let the bug know the reason. I just think it is wrong to kill things if it is for no reason. It's not like you walk around at parks with a fly swatter and go around chasing bugs all day. This would be wrong, but to just kill a bug that attacks you, or is biting you, well that is Ok. Hopefully.

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Does being buzz bombed by a bee count?



'Me no here. Me go bye. Leave me message. Me reply.'

Wolfen's Sig Site

kill 'em.
there are millions more.

said the human as a race of alien bugs wipes us out for colonization....

If you got my joke... (I don't believe in god remember), obviosly.

I was joking about burning in hell, I couldn't care any less about weather you killed a bug or not, its not murder but I don't think you should just kill a bug for no reason.



___________________
tri-eye

Why not? They'd kill you if they could. Same with chickens.

-Jestah
Cell 277

*Tries to imagine being killed by chickens, pictures Dodo scene in Ice Age, falls out of chair laughing*

My people don't believe in hell, so...and as for killing a bug, well...as long as it is not Bugimus...why not? I hate flies...

quote:

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Suho I am not joking...

THAL SHALT NOT KILL

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Hehe, that's pretty funny InSiDeR. I find it really hard to believe that you're not pulling my leg here. You do know that that refers to humans, right, and not to animals? You're pulling my leg, right?

hehe...maybe pulling your chain? *grasps lever, pulls it* Bye-bye suho...*waves as suho goes shooting down the halls...*



Man, that's more fun than shouting for the Nurse!!!

Any Oingo Boingo fans here? Remember this line? "And though they'll rule the world someday, they bite and sting me anyway... they bite and sting and suck... they bite and sting and suck Suck SUCK!!!"

"Thou shalt not kill" refers to *murdering* humans. The command to put murderers to death was the only command that was repeated for each of the 5 books of the Pentateuch.

. . : slicePuzzle

I make people who kill bugs feel guilty for doing it. After they kill one, I'll step in and say, "You know, it probably had a family. In fact, somewhere out there, a little bug is going 'Daddy? Are you coming home Daddy? Why did you leave us?'"

I too hate bugs ... err, insects, rather. Bees and little gnats irritate me beyond belief.

njuice42
icq 957255

By dictionary definition, killing a bug is not murder.

I do believe, however, killing a bug for personal amusement or unjustified malice is...well, it's not right.

Oh, and "thal" is not a word.

I dont think any court would fine you... unless it was in some extreme form of protest...

as for sin? well... IF you had a conviction that killing bugs was a sin and you killed bugs... that could be a sin... never thunked about it before.

by-the-way... Did you eat a pear today?

Izzay

Yes I have, yes I have. It had a bug in it. So I killed it.

Pear was tastey though.

njuice42
icq 957255

[This message has been edited by njuice42 (edited 06-11-2002).]

no suho, im not pulling your leg, I am pulling yours and bugimus' body into the world of SNL,

heh, bugs how do you know what THAL SHALT NOT KILL specifies and targets, are you moses? i certainly hope not, then ill have to kidnap you so you can part a few, uhh, nevermind.


___________________
tri-eye

Once again, "thal" is not a word.

See if you can get it right and get a cookie.

sorry, "thalt"

Oh my... lol

"Thou"

njuice42
icq 957255

[This message has been edited by njuice42 (edited 06-11-2002).]

sarcasm is fun to play with dont u think

thats rhetorical by the way

Sarcasm usually involves some sort of wit.

If a 20 stone roach appeared in your living room you'd try to kill it. It's only because they are so small and 'defenceless' that people say you shouldn't kill them. Nothing more satisfiying than hearing the crunch underfoot.


~We're not here for long, we're here for fun~

Wes, that was great. The perfect response, a definition and an example all in one.

DigitalUbiquity

Nice one, Wes. Very nice.

InSiDeR: please at least try to make sense...

SNL = Saturday Night Live?


Cell 270

yes suho,

there was a skit where john goodman played moses and darrel hammond played c*****n back when moses brought the 10 commandments out, and the OLD OLD bill c*****n would ask, "now, when you say thou shalt not covet thou wife, that doesn't mean the wife can't say, do the pleasure to you. I mean what if shes the one shining up the end and its just happening?"

heh, watch more american tv

edit: lol c-l-i-n-t-o-n was cencored hehe


___________________
tri-eye

Yeah Suho, watch more American TV over there in Korea... you do, after all, need to know what Insider's talking about

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

quote:

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bugs how do you know what THAL SHALT NOT KILL specifies and targets

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InSiDeR, I would do what I do when I want to find out more about a word in English... I would look it up in the dictionary. But since you and I don't read Hebrew, I would look up what Hebrew word is used in that verse and see how and when it is used. Of course, you have to take into account that verse was written a few thousand years ago so you would need to use the appropriate reference materials. We also have the benefit of centuries of commentary and teaching on that very passage to draw upon. It's hardly a mystery as to what, or rather who, "Thou shalt not kill" refers to if you're willing to take a serious look.

I could have just said to "open a book" but that might sound mean, so I decided to tell you to "open a book" with a few more words

. . : slicePuzzle

Ok on the theory that there is a god, it was probably writtin in another language and then translated into english.

Of course thats IF there is a god

InSiDeR: You don't know how much it pains me not to know what you are talking about all the time. In fact, since I have absolutely nothing to do with my life I have decided to devote myself to the study of the Gospel According to InSiDeR. I truly believe that this is the way God has chosen for me.

In fact, God appeared to me in a dream last night and said, "Suho, you're not watching enough American TV. How do you expect to follow me if you don't listen to My Word?"

Thank you. I have seen the light.

ROTFLMAO!!!

*gasps for breath*

quote:

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In fact, God appeared to me in a dream last night and said, "Suho, you're not watching enough American TV. How do you expect to follow me if you don't listen to My Word?"

Thank you. I have seen the light.

---

You're killing me, suho.

See? First a fat guy in a mumu, then God himself. Dude, you need more American TV.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

Lol!!!

Oh man, that's killing me, too!!! Stop it, just stop it...before I aphyxiate....*gasps for breath*

I totally agree. In fact, I think we should start the Suho1004 American TV fund, where people can donate toward my very own satellite feed. What do you think?

I got your satellite feed right here buddy! Just give me a moment to get it hooked up...

You forgot your [Brooklyn Accent] tags!

Is this thread about killing bugs or American TV?

Both are questionable you know...

Spiritual beliefs are very personal... It's not truly spiritually healing if you aren't secure enough in your belief system to have to ask someone else if your beliefs are correct. If you feel that killing the bug is not spiritually damaging to your immortal soul - squash that sucker! If you feel concern for how the bug might feel about it, perhaps you should rethink the squashing... No one else can tell you what is right for you to believe... They can only tell you what they believe.... Christian or not -

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who sticks around in this world to show others the way to enlightenment.

Good point Bodhi,

But what about murder? Should we be allowed to tell others that it is wrong to murder something? Shouldn't we try and help things, whether they are bugs or humans, from being murdered?

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*hands Suho a $20 bill...*

Check channel 564 at about 2 in the morning. Nurses, oh my!

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

Human laws apply to humans, not other creatures. The original question concerned a bug...

As human civilization has progressed, we have found it increasingley necessary to create laws so that we can co-exist in the society we've created for ourselves... Making laws against murder was necessary because one person shouldn't be able to force non-existence on another person. The animal kingdom has its own laws... The animals seem to have no trouble abiding by them...

My comment about spirituality was directed towards a couple of comments in the thread that insinuated that killing bugs was on par with killing humans - I don't believe it is. My point is that the moral justification of an act has to be thought out within yourself. Certainly you can listen to another's opinion on the subject, but the truth of what it means to you has to come from inside yourself. If Wolfen honestly wants to smash a bug, it's entirely his perogative to do so. The spiritual consequences he'll have to figure out for himself. At this point in human society, it's not against our human laws to kill bugs. (Unless you're Hindi, and then it could be an ancestor - ) From the bug's perspective, it might be murder, but since when do we ask bugs what they think? (And if we did, would they understand us enough to give an answer, and would we understand that answer?) That opens up a whole new can of worms.
Personally, most organized religious groups, while well-intentioned, are much less spiritually oriented than secularly oriented. People have to get along together, and when in groups, we tend to force everyone into a particularly shaped mold... Whoever doesn't fit - is wrong. I've been to a lot of different gatherings of people in different religious events, Christian and non-Christian alike. It happens everywhere here... I'm speaking of American society, in general... Though, certainly there are many *individuals* who don't think that way...
It could be, that Wolfen's initial question was simply along the lines of "What is the sound of one hand clapping" in order to spark of a discussion of the morality of killing, which it seems to have done. For the most part, I was simply putting in my 2 cents....

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who sticks around in this world to show others the way to enlightenment.

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 06-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 06-14-2002).]

most impressive. of course the question "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" is about as relevant as using your hand to grab itself.

quote:

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Human laws apply to humans, not other creatures.

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Are you very sure about that...what about dogs and cats and horses and ducks and rhinos and elephants and eagles and birds and squirrels and...well, you get the picture, you get in trouble for skinning an animal (I DO NOT know this from experience) just like you get in trouble for skinning a human.

I hate bugs, but I always try not to kill them. I usually catch them in a glass or something like that and then throw them out of the window.

Sasha »

I think the thing that most people aren't seeing is that a majority of these things are simply pests, as in we have entirely too many of them around, and they interfere with our lives negatively...

Don't follow? A mosquito bites you, you get an itchy lump. It annoys you. This is affecting you negatively.

Flies in the house, buzzing around your food and whatnot. This fly is affecting you negatively.

Of course, I'm not saying that if a person affect another one in this way is subject to die. Insects are plentiful, and won't be going anywhere anytime soon, as such, they are but mere pests, rather than "personal creatures".

At least this is the way it is percieved by everyone else. Not actual fact, mind you.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

Suho, lol i have to say that made me laugh. Well I know your joking but heres some eh, reading matirial for you here and look for my REALLY long post....

I don't believe in god . But I believe in the possibility of god... Just read that eheh...

By the way get a satelite dish.


___________________
tri-eye

quote:

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By the way get a satelite dish.

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So does this mean you're donating to the Suho1004 American TV fund?

Seriously, though, there's very little chance I'll ever get a satellite dish. It's just not one of my top priorities. So I guess you're going to have to keep me updated on all the latest crap.

Suho, little question.

Have you ever heard of something called the internet?

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 06-16-2002).]

InSiDeR, little question.

Have you ever heard of something called a life? I suggest you get one.

Let me spell this out for you: I could really care less about most of American TV, since it is largely crap. And I do not lose sleep at night over not seeing more American TV. So you can make your little wise-ass comments all you want, and it's not going to affect me either way. Is that clear enough for you?

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 06-16-2002).]

*gives the kid some candy* There ya are, now go play.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

You are extremely right, Suho, I could do without 80-90% of all the TV shown here in America. I mean seriously, they have over 15 dating shows boradvast in our area in the corse of a week on non-cable TV.

Suho: My Word is actually a british comedy radio show, hosted by Frank Muir and Dennis Norden. How does that pertain to american TV?

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

Are you serious? Figures there would be a program out there named that...

Skaarjj: Suho posted this:

quote:

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Let me spell this out for you: I could really care less about most of American TV, since it is largely crap. And I do not lose sleep at night over not seeing more American TV. So you can make your little wise-ass comments all you want, and it's not going to affect me either way. Is that clear enough for you?

---

Oh my God, cfb... it was a joke! Skaarjj read what I posted, he was just kidding!

Those slimies ( etc.) generally indicate that someone might be joking. I know it's sometimes hard to tell...

Just in case you missed it, he was referring to this post of mine:

quote:

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In fact, God appeared to me in a dream last night and said, "Suho, you're not watching enough American TV. How do you expect to follow me if you don't listen to My Word?"

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His comment fits perfectly, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 06-17-2002).]

Suho...quit playing with the kiddies...don't you have something better to do?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do... so I'd better get cracking.

Dokuzetsu: The relevance of the "one hand clapping" bit was in the rhetorical sense. It's a tool to make one think. That's all. It's a Zen thing.

CFB: Human laws apply to humans and their actions, whether or no they apply to the animal kingdom... Of course the animal rights people probably have a thing or two to say about all that... As the species with the most population and the most obvious mental capacity (note the key word: OBVIOUS) we have taken it upon ourselves to make decisions about how we think the world ought to be run. Of course you get in trouble for skinning a horse/cat/dog/hamster/etc... The larger more complex organisms that exist on this planet are creatures we have decided we have stewardship over. I haven't noticed any of these animal friendly organizations as being too terribly concerned about the insects on the planet... In the Hindu religion, it is forbidden to kill any life form - period. As you never know when some long dead ancestor might show up in the form of a bug. Or, when Vishnu might decide to give you a visit in the form of a dung beetle... But last I checked, that law didn't apply specifically to any of the other mainstream organized religions on the planet. I'm not encouraging wholesale destruction of bugs, just saying that it isn't anywhere in the same ballpark as killing humans.

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who sticks around in this world to show others the way to enlightenment.

Hopefully none of my ancestors have come to visit me as a mosquito or a flea, besides these two I really don't kill any bugs, only chickens, cows and fish. Wish I actually don't kill but I eat up there dead and tasty bodies.

bodhi23 - I was wondering, since we are apart of the of the animal kingdom. If it was not against societal standards to end a person's life without giving them free will over that descion (if murder was and had always been legal), do you think it would also be legal in religious beliefs? I mean, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did religion set up political standards, or the other way around. I mean, is it really wrong to murder someone? Why do different laws apply to us then to the other animals. Do you think a deer is very happy to die when a mountain lion comes tearing over the hill and bites into it's throat? Does that make the mountain lion a sinner? I guess not, since they must kill to eat. I guess I am answering my own question here, so bear with me.
But what I am saying is that murder or killing of anything that you do not consume, wear, or that is going to kill or harm you is wrong.

So to kill for food, clothing, or defense is Ok.
To kill for power, pride, revenge, money, or fun is bad.
So squashing a bug that is not going to bite you is bad. But mosquito's and flea's could kill you. Imagine if 500 mosquitos all bit you at once. Or perhaps 10,000 fleas..

Yikes.

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Gilbert -
If you want to go all technical on me, then you're right... As members of the animal kingdom, those laws should also apply to us. Though, you will notice that most predatory animals don't kill for the sheer pleasure of it. (let's leave the story line of Ghosts in the Darkness out of this one) However, humans have made a separate set of laws necessary for themselves by their creation of the human society, which involves changing nature to suit ourselves.

If you look at the issue anthropologically, human society started in a pack or herd animal mentality. I would interpret that to mean the political crap started first, and the religion came second. But it truly is a matter of historical interpretation. Going back to the first civilizations, it appears that both aspects of society evolved together, though not necessarily in harmony. I would have to say that if murder were not outlawed by one, it probably would not be outlawed by the other.

quote:
"So to kill for food, clothing, or defense is Ok.
To kill for power, pride, revenge, money, or fun is bad.
So squashing a bug that is not going to bite you is bad. But mosquito's and flea's could kill you. Imagine if 500 mosquitos all bit you at once. Or perhaps 10,000 fleas.."


I heartily agree with this statement. In the nature of the animal kingdom, it makes perfect sense. What we squabble over is what constitutes defense!

So Wolfen - I think we've determined that if the bug has got it in for you, it is not murder to kill it.


Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who sticks around in this world to show others the way to enlightenment.

"Evil has no existence per se and is but the absence of good and exists but for him who is made its victim. It proceeds from two causes, and no more than good is it an independent cause in nature. Nature is destitute of goodness or malice; she follows only immutable laws, when she either gives life and joy or sends suffering and death and destroys what she has created. Nature has an antidote for every poison and her laws a reward for every suffering. The butterfly devoured by a bird becomes that bird, and the little bird killed by an animal goes into a higher form. It is the blind law of necessity and the eternal fitness of things, and hence cannot be called evil in Nature. The real evil proceeds from human intelligence and its origin rests entirely with reasoning man who dissociates himself from Nature. Humanity then alone is the true source of evil. Evil is the exaggeration of good, the progeny of human selfishness and greediness. Think profoundly and you will find that save death---which is no evil but a necessary law, and accidents which will always find their reward in a future life---the origin of every evil, whether small or great, is in human action, in man whose intelligence makes him the one free agent in Nature. It is not Nature that creates diseases, but man. . . . Food, sexual relations, drink, are all natural necessities of life; yet excess in them brings on disease, misery, suffering, mental and physical. . . . Become a glutton, a debauchee, a tyrant, and you become the originator of diseases, of human suffering and misery. Therefore it is neither Nature nor an imaginary Deity that has to be blamed, but human nature made vile by selfishness." - Koot Hoomi

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Exactly.

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who sticks around in this world to show others the way to enlightenment.