Topic awaiting preservation: Peanut Gallery for "Does God Exist?" IV

All righty then ... it's high time to get a new thread going here. Would an admin be so kind as to lock up the previous one ... thanks.

Bugimus, How is your answer coming for the formal debate? I know earlier you had said you were pretty busy. Could you just give us an estimate as to when you will be posting it. No pressure or nothin' ... just curious.

Fig, the formal debate is a little farther down the thread list and is called "Formal Debate for "Does God Exist?" " Can't miss it!

Man o man ... look at all these peanut shells! Anyone got a broom?

Cell Number: 494

Well, yes it is serious... I may not be able to post in the Philo forum again.

InSiDeR, we're here for you so just let us know if we can help.

BeeKay, I have been very busy and I feel bummed about holding things up here. I have been working on my reply though. I should have my reply up by Thursday night, hopefully sooner. I really appreciate everyone's patience on this but sometimes things come up and that's just the way it is.

. . : slicePuzzle

Ok, I guess I can reveal some of this personal problem...

My mom thinks this forum is satanic because of its "disbelief of god" ambience that is going around in the debate. So she called my dad here in florida to tell him that while on my computer she found this site... My dad told me that she was putting in some kind of program that somehow tracks down the sites I go to or blocks them I don't know... My mom doesn't know I know about the program she is installing, so I need to know how to get it out when I go back home to my precious computer in Kentucky on August 5'th.


_____________________
I'd sell, my soul, my self
esteem, a dollar at a time.

Perhaps it would be better to show your mom that this isn't a "satanic" place. There are several Xians in this forum so it's hardly a satanic place. This is just a place where ideas and speech are allowed to flow freely.

It wouldn't matter, she is installing it anyway.

insider...I'll send you an email tonight with something that might owrk. Although i wouldn't normally ocndone something like this, I really hate it when someone tries to force their beliefs onto somebody else, or stop them seeing something when their own beliefs cloud their judgment.

No more will be said by me here.

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

I think what bugimus means is that you should show her the other aspects of the forum , so that even if she does install the software, perhaps she'll see this as one of the sites that's ok. With a child your age, I'd be running such software if I were her as well.

On a related topic, I'd just like to remind everyone that tonight is the big ceremony, so remember to bring your robes, goblets of blood, sacrificial daggers, and an unwitting victim with you

lol...

thanks skaarjj

DL, with parents looking for signs of satanic activity, you might not should have said that!

InSiDer, I certainly hope that you continue your quest for knowledge regardless of the restrictions your parents might place on you. Just make sure you are always aware of the consequences of your actions... An open and educated mind is a good thing...

Aside: I am SOOO glad to know I'm not the only one bogged down with the outside world! I was feeling bad about it there for a bit...

Weeeeeeeeee
ceremony tonight!

I'll be glad bringing a lot of pills for everyone!

(Incluiding Insider's mom)

do you have knives?

And please, this time DO NOT sacrifice my white rabbit!

Ceremony!?!?

I got my goat leggings right here! When do we start...

**tiki sniffs twice, eyes Wakkos' white rabbit**

mmm...nice juicy little rabbit...

**licks lips**

[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 07-18-2002).]

shut the fuck up now

cool I can bring my big dumb brother! I don't have a robe or dagger though, will a buck knife work?

ummm...although all of this is funny and all, consider that we may be contributing to insider's mum's bad opinion of this place. I think we should stop tlaking about the satanic rituals now.

Insider...although I share the feeling, the words may not have been the best choice.

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

...it's coming... it's coming... IT'S THERE!!! Again, thanks for the patience and it feels good to no longer be holding this puppy up

. . : slicePuzzle

Deep respect to my 'sparring' partner Bugs...nice essay...

So I guess I am up next, right? If so, I'm getting to work on it...

Thanks, WS. Yes, I do believe it is your turn. I'm looking forward to it

. . : slicePuzzle

"Shut the fuck up now"

Oh, well, since you asked nicely

rofl dl, I read that and cracked up...

Bugs, what exactly does that chart represent....

Start at the top and work your way down. It breaks down just about all the major positions you can take on the question of whether God exists. It goes from decision/indecision all the way down to what kinds of theism you have to choose from.

I wanted to include it 1. because a visual aid is cool and 2. because I was trying to show that limiting my focus of God to the Big 3 (Judaism,Xianity,Islam) was a good move.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 07-22-2002).]

Oh, I read it from bottom up and was thinking something totally different, and I was very confused.



_____________________
I'd sell, my soul, my self
esteem, a dollar at a time.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 07-23-2002).]

So..... how we doin'? El bumpo.

I was wondering the same thing. It is WS's turn. However, I haven't noticed him around very much at all lately. Has he posted any notice on the boards about leaving for any reason? Hope all is all right with him ...

Cell Number: 494

Yeah, I hope all is well too. I have not heard anything from him since the 19th. He's probably just busy with the real world as is known to happen from time to time.

Real World?

And you are so quiet there just watching him go to the real world?
What kind of friends are you?

OMG, WS is in the Real World!

we need to organize a delta platoon to bring him back!

heh, wakky needs more meds...

Yeah, I was 'immersed' in the real world for a bit...sorry everyone, but I'm back, again (thank god...small pun!).

My 'reply' is almost ready...

I love you wakkos , don't take that the wrong way .

Well, I finished my bicycle trip, but since we left 5 days late we (me and my dad) only made it down to San Jose. Luckily he has a friend their so were stayin there for a while. Anyways...VERY nice responce Bugs, and I look forward to seeing the question posted for WebShaman and I also have a question that could be used against InSiDeR or WebShaman:

"Scientists usually refer to facts or theories that are suffisiently backed up/have been tested and retested in controlled and uncontrolled enviorments. But evolution seems to me to depart from that pattern of relying on fact. Evolution cannot be tested, from the creation of a bacterium via energy striking some gooey stuff to a guy (or gal) sitting at their computer typing into a forum about computer graphics. So why would a scientist want to rely on a theory that cannot be proven? Instead, why not rely on one that has more historical, and factual truth to it?"

Ok, that aside, after riding for about 800 miles, I'm really tired!

Great to have you back CFB! And I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment from WS.

I'll be attending the San Diego ComicCon from July 31-August 4 so I won't be posting much then. I'll try to drop in with an Internet cafe connection but I just might be having too much fun so I'll see ya'll when I see ya!

. . : slicePuzzle

good question cfb, but since you will be answering it after me i don't know if debaters can have their q's used

Bugs: I enjoy the fact that agnosticism is place in the area of indecision and that atheism is is listed as disbelief. The root of agnoticism is recongising that both theism and atheism are potentially unprovable belief systems and that there is no real way to prove that a God does not exist - the onus should be on theists to prove that a God exists.

InSiDeR: It is sad that your mother feels this way as there are plenty of good Christians here quite happy to defend their corner with vigour (and they stop us Godless heathens from running around in our goatskin leggings handing out hallucinogenic love drugs - sorry I couldn't help it). Perhaps someone would be happy to answer any questions your mother has.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Oh its all been taken care of, after a very long conversation over my beliefs and my privacy, shes leaving the damn prog in but I will find a way to remove it if it bothers me, hopefully it won't block this site, if it does then we have an immensly large problem.

Ok, after an unbelievably tortuous research phase, combined with much filtering and refining, I have finally posted my reply. Whew! Bugs has really been a fine sparring partner, I must say. I hope that I have proved to be at least a satisfactory opponent, considering the quality of Bugs' replies...well, I've done my best...

Very nice WS, I go back to KY tommorow.

Great stuff WS. Thanks for all of your effort.

Now I need to drum up another question ... hmmmmmmm ... the end is near -- so to speak.

Cell Number: 494

InSiDeR: Do you have acess to a public library? Can you Ctr+Alt+Del? Can You make an Admin account? Their are lots of ways to get around those kinds of programs, and many of them are simple....But...I really think that you should just show your mom that this isn't a bad place with bad people. It's really just a good place with SOME bad people.

CFB do you not read? Damn.

I pass my spot as con side of this debate to anyone who claims dibs first.

I have a social problem.

quote:

---

I have a social problem.

---

Must... resist... the urge... to... comment...

Just kidding, man. Sorry to hear about your problem. That kind of puts a dent in the debate...

No, I don't think it does, Master Suho. Maybe we should end it where it now is. I think we've pretty much covered the topic. Maybe BeeKay should make a ruling on this...BeeKay? What do you say?

quote:

---

I have a social problem

---

Well, it took long enough...hopefully, he'll now take steps to 'improving' in that direction...

True... only one question left. There probably would be enough for Beekay to go on.... And things have kind of slowed down to a crawl anyway.

I posted the final question and some instructions in the formal debate thread. Please head over there and take a gander. This production is almost a wrap.

Cell Number: 494

Well, I must say, that's a billiant question, BeeKay! And what a way to finish this Debate! I can say, that despite the somtimes seemingly-impossible standards set by Bugs, I sure did have a lot of fun (and a lot of work...thanks, Bugs ). Thanks to all for getting this thing off the ground...kudos to all.

Can't wait to read CFB's reply....*rubs hands together*

I think this has turned out exceedingly well, all things considered. I feel more privileged than ever to be an Asylumite. I really hope we can continue this with some other topics... I am really looking forward to just sitting in the gallery throwing peanut shells for the next one. Being a participant is hard work!

That is a very good question, BeeKay. It is a question that will not require a whole lot of references since it is quite personal. Perhaps after CFB replies we may be able to convince InSiDeR to hop back in for it.

So, WS, how do you feel about tackling that question? Or do you think we should wrap it up after CFB?

7(16)(16)42(25)506(16)(18)0(1)0(13)(16)(21)(14)(20)8

=

Goodbye for a mounth

Oh, I couldn't pass up answering that question if I tried, Bugs! Just interested in CFBs (and your) reply!

Yup, I'll do my best to answer the question...as I'm sure you will....

It's been a great debate. I, too, will enjoy the next one...from the sidelines....it is, as Bugs said, really hard work...but enjoyable.

@ BeeKay....you have done a great job. Kudos.

Well...Expect a reply in a couple of days!

Still with us, CFB? I would love to get this one back on track and wrapped up so we can tackle another. No pressure, just a little bump

. . : slicePuzzle

bump

yup, I was wondering the same thing ...

Cell Number: 494

Bump, just felt like bumping it

things that go **** in the night

bumpedy dumpedy... are those words? oh... i see...

Sorry, my internet was down for the longest time, im on track though...now that i have the question. Expect a reply in a few days.


________________
counterfeitbacon <A HREF="http://www.ozoneasylum.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=OZONE&number=7" TARGET=_blank>

Now, I've heard some pretty....stuff in my time, but this takes the cake

quote:

---

That is a really hard question for me to answer. You see, my whole life I have been brought up beleiving in God. And, I truly do beleive that their is a God, and not just for the reason that my parents do. Books such as Josh McDowells "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict" have further reinforced my beleifs. Truly though, I think that the reason that I beleive in God is because I just know that he exists.

---

Oh man, that's killing me...God exists because I know he exists. Circular humbug. To be blunt - you believe because you have been brainwashed from birth...had you been raised in a different environment, that would probably be different. Had you never come into contact with the idea of a 'God', then you would most probably not believe in one. Unfortunately for you, your choices were reduced from your conception on...but ok, this is your 'opinion'....

Can't wait for the 'second' half...

Couldn't God exist because we made him exist? You get enough people saying the same thing and suddenly you've got people believing in it that weren't part of starting it. They don't understand that someone started it to see what would happen and won't know when the joke is up. Since this started so long ago I think it's safe to assume we will never know if the Disciples were just playing a joke that got out of hand or if it was real. Who knows. Maybe it WAS real to them. Doesn't mean it was true.


GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

GrythusDraconis, take all those hypotheticals you just outlined and walk them through what we do know to have happened. I think you may find that some of them become much less likely than at first glance. I will grant you that it is within the realm of possibility it is all a joke but you have to ask yourself how that compares to alternative possibilities.

Point Taken, to an extent. At least you accepted the possibility.

It just seems to me that this is being looked at from an entirely different perspective than trying to prove/figure out any other legend. That IS what it boils down to after all. Just because you can prove that parts of it exist doesn't mean it all does or that it wasn't exaggerated in some(or many) ways. Merlin may have been a great orator and an excellent advisor to the throne but I'm not going to go for him being a great wizard. The stories built around people and events of the times are just that, stories. More often than not they are exaggerated and/or incorrect because of translation. Jesus may well have been a real person who did wonderful things. Someone truly worthy of emulating. Does that make him the son of God? Dunno. It might make him like what people thought the son of God would be like. That happens to be my personal belief. So yeah, you'll find some things that can be proven to exist that are mentioned in the Bible but that doesn't make all of it true. Nor does it discount your beliefs because you can't prove it all to be true. Some if it just can't be proven because it flat out didn't happen. Someone exaggerated what really happened or added a story that they thought would help people treat each other better.


GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

That's all quite reasonable what you say. Now the only thing left would be to take an actual look at the data and see for yourself. If you ever do and have any questions, I would be more than happy to share what I know about it. And I do try my best to be fair and objective and I don't consider any honest search for truth to be in vain.

Actually, I am going to respond to this, and with a striking power.

btw CFB I too thought the "I know there is a god," was a croc of shit. WS layed in on thicker than I will but time and time again have my friends said that to me. No you don't, you were just brought up that way and so thinking you have listened to everything you hear. And since your parents should know right and wrong, you trust their judgement.

Ok, the second part will be better, but tha question is really hard. And not in a research sense. I've read a lot of books with facts that an stand up to the highest scrutiny, you people should seriously look into it. And no, I haven't been brainwashed since birth...

CFB: Take away god, christianity, and all religions that set a way to live, and you'll still have those certain things that are right and wrong, because it's all in human nature. Well, atleast civilized human nature, we all know that it isn't in Bin Ladens' human nature to "not kill," one another. But then again Bin Laden was driven to that by religion now wasn't he? Right... Sadly obvious but true.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Ok...now that CFB is done...I'll be posting my reply...

Posted.

Awaiting Bugs reply, with abated breath...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 09-04-2002).]

Good post, mr. Shaman.

I'd still like to hear in detail how this concrete proof could be delivered to you.

It would have to take place on a higher plane of thought no doubt, and might well be garbled on its way back to this reality's thought pattern.
Perhaps you would retell this garbled memory of a tale to someone else, then that person may write it in a book, or maybe you would write about it.
Ah, then the history into the makings of organized religion would begin once again.

I do applaud you for your post as a whole though. It is very astute.

All righty then. Good job to all! Bugs, if you want to post something in reply to the question, let us know here. Almost time to finally wrap this thing up.

Cell Number: 494

I'm really sorry about that responce. My life has been a hell of a hectic time for me right now, along with reformating the wrong drive, iv'e got track starting and my first year of high school*

So, just wanted to say that I couldn't put the time into that responce that I wanted to...

...anyways, at least my starter was good


*Hazing starts tomorrow

Well you really didn't have to go into as much detail as we did with the opening arguements. Beekay is it alright if I go before bugs? I am pretty much ready for this.

Good grief ... I thought you had dropped out ...

Well, if you are willing and able, then go for it. Let's hear what you have to say.

~grumbles something evil about young whipper snappers these days~

Cell Number: 494

uhhh

quote:

---

Actually, I am going to respond to this, and with a striking power.

---

I'm here. It looks like I'll be the last one to answer the final question. I've been tied up the last couple of days. I'll have my response up sometime Friday or Saturday depending on when I can get enough spare time to collect my thoughts.

. . : slicePuzzle

Ok, it's posted.

My final response is up and so we draw near to a close. Some closing words from BeeKay will wrap it up, I presume?

. . : slicePuzzle

bugs, that was pretty nice...

let me remind you that i respect you more than any other christian, ever...

now that this debate is done and over with ( and suprisingly without any responses to mine and bugs's posts )

we can have another "lets have a debate" thread w/ ideas and what not and refs and the good stuff

i had a great time doing this and i learned so much... thanks to all who participated in the debate and all who poured their brains out in the peanut galleries giving there input \

can't wait for the next one!

[quote]Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Beliefs kill. Believe in nothing.[quote]

That would be considered "Inccorrect Inductive Reasoning," and wouldn't stand up as anything more than your opinion.


________________
counterfeitbacon <A HREF="http://www.ozoneasylum.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=OZONE&number=7" TARGET=_blank>

In my opinion those posts didn't have enough substance to warrant any response, Insider.

Actually, I was quite shocked by Bugs reply...though I have seen people lose their faith, and become the opposite of what they were before...*shrugs*


Why does the belief in a Supreme Being always tie in with being...nice to your fellow man? Or considerate? Why aren't these things seperate? Though I do these things for myself, that doesn't mean that I am ruthless, or unfeeling...I just feel better...I help where I can. I don't expect a reward, or even gratitude. That is namely, not the point. I do it because I can...I remember times when others helped me...and what a difference it made in my life. At key points in my life, people helped me...and that probably lead to where I am today...so one could say, yes, but that is self-serving...maybe, but it has the same effect. My reasons for doing so only matter to myself...but the effect of my actions...affect others, as well. This realization brought me to this conclusion. Try to treat others, as you would like to be treated. Doesn't always work...but that is not the point.

WS, correct me if I'm wrong here, but being shocked by my reply stems from the fact that you consider faith to be a very insignificant part of life. IOW, someone losing their faith should have no more major impact on someone's life than stubbing their toe?

Hmmm...now that you put it that way...I guess it would be somewhat like what Neo went through in the Matrix, maybe?

Food for thought...thanks for the reply.

But would you give up your love for your fellow man if you lost your faith?

I'll wrap up the formal debate sometime this weekend.

If anyone wants to kick around ideas for another debate, then go right ahead and start the appropriate thread. I'd prefer to sit back and observe the next one ...

Cell Number: 494

WebShaman, what would love mean in a world that has no meaning? Notice that one of the items in the list of things I would indulge in was "philanthropy". The point being that I would do things that made *me* feel good. For what possible reason would I do anything that made me feel bad in a world like that? You tell me. I'm curious and I'm trying to be a honest as I possibly can on this. I really think that is the way I would live my life because *I* was the number one priority in my life before I gave it to Christ. Does that make any sense?

Well, it's like I said - you are still a living, thinking, feeling being, irregardless of what you believe...and the realization that there are, indeed, others as well...and that your actions have consequences...not only to you, but to others. To have morals, or a code of honor, does not mean you need to believe in a Supreme Being...I believe I am proof of that...

I guess I'm just not understanding the "why" part of it.

I'm not saying that one needs to believe in a Supreme Being in order to have morals. Some of the atheists I have run across in my travels have been obsessed with morality.

I am asking you to help me understand why not always acting in your self-interest is rational if there is, as you say, no rights or wrongs.

Well, I would say that the decission is a personal choice. For me, my experiences in life led to developing my own code of honor. I would in no way, shape, or form, try to enforce it on someone else.

As to why I have it...well, my experiences have shown me that my actions have consequences...for myself, and others. Since I believe that one should take responsibility for ones actions, I therefore try to 'contain' the negative ones...I have no wish to bring harm, or negative consequences on anyone else. This largely superceds my own 'wellbeing'...unless it is a matter of survival. Or family. Or my job.

Trying to convince you of the why...I don't think that would be possible. I can only explain why I do it.

WS, I'm not asking you to convince me, I was only asking for you to help me *understand*. Thanks very much. People of our age generally don't convert one way or another so I don't exactly expect a lot of that.

. . : slicePuzzle

Hey, BeeKay. I was just wondering if you were still going to do a wrap up post to the our first formal debate? Just a little bump

Yea, a bump for polish would put a nice finishing touch on the thread .