Topic awaiting preservation: God?

Ok here is a question thats stumped me and my friends.

A sin is bad, a sin is evil. So why would God make the tree of all knowledge in the garden of Eden, enabling us to commit are first sin.

Please tell me.

Depends on who you ask

"It's all part of his big plan."

Didn't we just go through this debate...

Let's see here if I can just find it now...

[edit: Here it is:
Formal Debate for Does God Exist

Peanut Gallery 1
PG 2
PG 3
PG 4

At least I think I got the right links with the right title...

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-23-2002).]

It's really very simple, mogg. God doesn't like you. He wants you to live a painful, miserable life and to leave the way that you came - cold, wet, and alone.

He has a sense of humor.

Do you think it is unfair? Imagine living and only having one thing you are not supposed to do. Only one thing. It was the ultimate thing not to do, but still only ONE thing not to do.

Anywhoo? C.S. Lewis tries to shed some light on this in the book ?Perelandra? from his space trilogy. It really is a fascinating read. Basically a new world has been created with an ?adam? and an ?eve? who had one thing they were not allowed to do. C.S. Lewis says something to the effect of, there is one law so that there will be obedience. If there is nothing to go against there is nothing to ah, go for I guess. He also says something like, obeying someone and doing something one else wishes you to do can give you joy. The only way to find such joy is to do something where there is no reason to do it other than the person or God saying not to do it.

Errr?. Read the book. Its pretty good.


                                                           

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A sin is bad, a sin is evil. So why would God make the tree of all knowledge in the garden of Eden, enabling us to commit are first sin.

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Maybe the question should be 'Why did the 'first' people have to eat from it?'

I mean, in this sense, it isn't 'Gods' fault, now is it? And actually, he warned the first people not to...but they went and did it anyway...of course, one could say that they were 'tricked' by Satan...

This tree thing is kind of weird. I mean, say Adam and Eve did not eat it. And say all their kids did not eat it, and say no one ever ate it until right now, when I ate it. Would that mean that from this moment forward all people would suddenly percieve a false duality of nature (being naked and what-not?) I don't know about this. It's kind of like with reperations. I mean, just because my great-great-grandfather had slaves, does not mean I have to pay the great-great-grandchildren of the slaves he owned. It's not my fault how society was in the past, so why would God blame us for what Adam did, which is why I think that we have always been the same, and that we started wearing clothing to avoid the cold, and all our emotions and stuff have always existed. Their was never a time of bliss. Perhaps a time of superiour brain power, and superiour connections with nature, but a time of perfection, nope.

(BTW - My great-great-grandfather had no slaves, he was Irish)

-^^-
--::--
\___/

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Ok here is a question thats stumped me and my friends.

A sin is bad, a sin is evil. So why would God make the tree of all knowledge in the garden of Eden, enabling us to commit are first sin.

Please tell me.

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the "tree" was of the knowledge of good and evil--not "all" knowledge
trees in the bible often represent personas--in this case satan
the fruit of the tree represents idolatry--specifically in this case, fornication
i.e.--"thou shall have no god before me"
now use your imagination and common sense
and note that when eve bore a son, she bore again, another son, twins
each with a different father
adam and satan
this is only the beginning
eternity was around a long time before
use your imagination

why?
to prove that god is god and there is no other

It's a fable.

A metaphor.

An excuse you might say.

Don't let it trouble you - there are more important things to wonder about.

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now use your imagination

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I've found that's a requirement of practically every religion

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

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....and common sense

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I think that sums up practically every religion a bit better

Common sense sums up science. Granted it takes awhile to become "common" sense, but eventually it does. Religion has made no more sense now than ever. The crusifiction for instance. God sends down a version of Himself in human form (Jesus, for those not making the connection) whose sole purpose is to pay for the sins of man, whom God created with the ability (free will), opportunity (the tree), and the temptation (allowing the Devil in the Garden) to sin. So because God allows these things to happen (and subsequently punishes everyone for this first sin), Jesus, a.k.a. God, is killed on the cross to... ah hell (no pun intended) I can't think of the word I want here... anyways, to pay for the sins of man. So we just killed God. Or a piece of God maybe? But wait, Jesus now goes to Heaven, where we have God and some ghost we also call God. Now we're having some fun. Three gods now But wait, what good did having Jesus die on the cross do? None of the things that were problems before the crusifiction are cured.
In addition, there's God the Destroyer. Who can forget all the 7(?) plagues and there was that great flood (that is a large part of almost every other religion as well, including many that pre-date Christianity) where God kills quite a large number of people...

Right, common sense...

[edit: Grammer...]

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-24-2002).]

Sorry.. I wasn't clear enough

I don't practice any given religion.. I have my beliefs, and that's where I stand on that. Religion just really isn't my thing. However, I don't go around telling people not to practice, because I deserve the same respect of my beliefs that I give them.

And that's that. My apologies for the ambiguity

"There is absolutely no common sense; it is common nonsense"

-Henry David Thoreau

I dislike getting into deep stuff online. Bleh.

If this God stuff is bogus, a fairytale, I have nothing to loose. If it is true then you are friggin SCREWED. I am dead serious. No pun. Everything said here in this thread, on this forum is the opinions of people and what they believe. We really push for the individual to research and find out what he believes on his own. What am I yackin about?

Before the earth was God... the "God, Jesus, holyspirit" all kinda mushed together like eh... mashed potatoes. (holy mashed potatoes mind you) Then this one Angel said, "yo yo snoop goddie God, I wanna be a supreme power" So God kicked him outa heaven in record time and bound him to earth. Thus we have Bad against Good. I dunno if the choice of a planet was up to the devil... don?t really matter, cuz we are now screwed. The devil covered the earth in darkness. Sin. Chickenpox. Hang nails. Pop music... You name it. He owns Joo. And your pants. And you dog, and his pants (if he happens to wear pants). In fact he so owned the world that he was in the position to give all the nations to Jesus if Jesus bowed down to him. Jesus would not have any part of that though, he told the devil to go home. Back to Adam / Eve and their pets and their pets pants. God put Adam and Eve on the earth with one simple rule. One simple rule. The devil came along and got Eve to eat the thing. It came down to her choice, and the devil talked her into it. Ya should try talkin to the devil some time... it ain't easy. Actually I dunno but I bet it would not be any fun. So the two doobies ate the fruit and all hell broke loose on earth. God is totally good. The devil and his world is totally bad. Badness can not coexist with God. Now because they had eaten the fruit they would die, and everyone after would also die. The devil looked at what he had done and saw that it was "good". Blah blah blah... junk happens, a flood comes, the ecosystem is totally trashed, people start letting off cfc's and such burning holes in the ozone layer (nothing to do with the DocOzone) blah blah blah... God has enough and sends Jesus down here. To fight the devil. He ends up getting killed. The devil laughs... perfect he thinks. But not so for the red dude. Jesus had died as a sinless personage in a sinful world to cover anybodiez sins that believe in him. So after his death you could simply believe in him and you would go to heaven... not hell (where the devil wants yah *insert evil laughter here*). And for some reason there is a lot of hostility and disbelief against him. People sayin "ah das just a crutch for life" and so on... It?s the devil, who has realized that he no longer has full control on earth so he fights back against Christianity as hard as he can.

shoot it got late. Cheers.


                                                           

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If this God stuff is bogus, a fairytale, I have nothing to loose. If it is true then you are friggin SCREWED.

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Good point there, izzay.

As for it all being a crutch, maybe it is. Maybe I need a crutch, though. Hats off to all of you out there who can make it on your own, but I prefer knowing that I'm never really alone, no matter how dark the road ahead may be. If that's a crutch, so be it.

For what it's worth, I also usually dislike getting into deep stuff online, which is why I usually pop into threads like these and make stupid comments. I'm following the argument, mind you, I'm just usually not getting into it.

Cell 270

Izzy that was one of the most original posts i have seen in this thread or other god related ones.

I liked it

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If this God stuff is bogus, a fairytale, I have nothing to loose. If it is true then you are friggin SCREWED.

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I've heard this same logic a lot before but it really bugs me. I don't think that if they're really is a God that he'd fall for such a loophole like that. It just seems like such a CYA cop out. Can you imagine standing at the pearly gates waiting your turn to talk to God thinking "*WHEW*, I wasn't sure there if there was a God but I went along with the program just in case. Dude I am so friggin' lucky man!"

so...it's either bow down to god or bow down to the devil....?

Either way someone else owns my dog's pants it seems.

So I'll just let my dog run naked

*Ding, ding, ding* We have a winner.
Hands Schitzoboy a cookie.


IF there is a God, I believe that it's who we are as a person that determines the heaven/hell thing. Not whether we go to church, or actively preach about how great God is or anything. However, since God created each of us (depending on who you talk to), he created who we are and our ability to determine right from wrong, and all that. Therefore, if He would send us to hell for being "bad," it was Him that made us that way.

You can have either one or the other:
1) God creates us entirely, and thus if we are "bad/evil/etc," it was His decision to do so. He thus punishes us for the way He created us.
2) There is no God, and it is up to us (freewill) whether we are "good/bad/whatever." If there is a God, then there is no true freewill.

Which is a better person? And which one goes to heaven/hell?
The Christian who does good for fear of going to hell otherwise?
Or the Atheist who does good because it's the right thing to do?
Granted, these aren't the only possibilities, just one of the places where Christianity is backwards.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

DL-44, thats a good point.

That's why I believe that if we do not bow down to either, we can choose to become a God ourselves, who then becomes like a Bill Gates sort of spiritual figure. Someone who does not run the show, but has much power and can do whatever in either the dark or light realm. Free to bake blueberry muffins with God, or get drunk with the devil.

Schitzoboy

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I wasn't sure there if there was a God but I went along with the program just in case. Dude I am so friggin' lucky man

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I'd say you misquoted Izzy there but it's not a quote so I can't, but... you've left out the fact that Izz is sure there's a God, he's met him. This is just something he said to someone who doesn't believe. Hope I'm not putting incorrect words in your mouth eyezaer.

DL-44

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so...it's either bow down to god or bow down to the devil

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That is indeed what it boils down to. By not choosing, you've chosen.

Lord_Fukutoku

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However, since God created each of us (depending on who you talk to), he created who we are and our ability to determine right from wrong, and all that. Therefore, if He would send us to hell for being "bad," it was Him that made us that way.

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I've read that a hundred times and it really doesn't make any sense but I can address the "He would send us to hell for being "bad" portion. Christianity does not say that you will be sent to hell for being bad. In fact it teaches that we've all been bad and fallen short of the standard of perfection. It's when we reject God's forgiveness for these shortcomings (that we have chosen to do) that we our ownselves choose hell, eternal seperation from the good Father.

I too hate these threads, but I figgered Bugs might be gettin tired

Jason

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Christianity does not say that you will be sent to hell for being bad. In fact it teaches that we've all been bad and fallen short of the standard of perfection.

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This poses the obvious question of why are we allowed to fall short of perfection? And who's standard of perfection?

Let's see if we can't find a way to tie some mathematical principles into this...
Using proof by contradiction, I will prove that God does not exist. (I hope.)

Start with a list of premises (premisi maybe?, that's why I'm using math and not english here ):
statement "A" = There is a God.
statement "B" = God is all-powerful. (Christian God here. Not real sure about some of the others.)
statement "C" = God cannot be destroyed. (Again, Christian God.)

Pr. 1 : "C"
Pr. 2 : "A" => "B" (Read A implies B)
--Truth table for Pr. 2--

"A"

God damn it. I get on the asylum to GET AWAY from discrete math, and what do I find?

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You can have either one or the other:
1) God creates us entirely, and thus if we are "bad/evil/etc," it was His decision to do so. He thus punishes us for the way He created us.
2) There is no God, and it is up to us (freewill) whether we are "good/bad/whatever." If there is a God, then there is no true freewill.

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on average--i want to say every 30 but, it's probably more lie 20, so let's say every 25 years sees a generation and, we all are apt to see (as the saying goes) to the 3rd or 4th generation but, to those who care to see--to those who dare to open their eyes there is no end to the paradox*


*see quote

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8) An all-powerful being can destroy anything. - (Def. of 'all-powerful)
9) God can create a being that can destroy God. - (7, 8, Adjunction)
10) God can be destroyed. - (9, reworded)
11) "C" - (Pr.2)
12) God can be destroyed, and, God cannot be destroyed. - (10, 11, Adjunction)
13) God does not exist. - (1, 12, Contradiction with Hyp.)

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to my way of seeing, following this reasoning 13) should read:

13) God exists AND does not exist.

*

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Free to bake blueberry muffins with God, or get drunk with the devil.

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Free to bake blueberry muffins with the devil, or get drunk with God.

*applauds izzay*

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 09-26-2002).]

Just imagine if the tree of knowledge was bearing pears instead of apples.

Then the serpent would have been pretty redundant

outcydr does bring up an interesting point...that as an all-powerful being, it should be possible for God to create a being that could destroy it. Or God could just destroy Itself. Therefore, it is possible to destroy God...

Interesting...

Why not destroy God?

<sidenote>
In Sweden there's now talk about the bible being illegal to publish due to legal issues concerning the condescending mentioning of homosexuals in the old testament.
Disrespecting anyone out of breed, religion or sexuality is a big issue in Sweden, and - according to a Professor of law - the new laws could mean that publishing the bible would be unlawful.
Quite an interesting paradox, since that would be disrespecting Christians.
Mind you, we do not have any censorship here, so you can publish anything you want at least once and then take the consequenses.
</sidenote>

JK - that's a pretty narrow view of it. I never stated that I have not chosen. I have, but not either of the stated options.

If there is such a god, and that god also holds such a narrow view, well then....fuck 'im.

I live as a good person. I see "christians" by the hundreds in my daily life that do not.

If i am to be judged because of lack of faith in a book and it's stories - when those stories have been proven to repeatedly mistranslated and their meanings twisted and abused, then this god would have nothing to do with "good" anyway.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-26-2002).]

All righty then, let's see...

Raptor - I got that using stuff from my Math Reasoning class, not discrete. Not because we aren't doing this stuff in discrete but because our teacher there treats us like we are 3rd graders. She spent a week just going over converting binary to decimal and back... so boring... I'm so far ahead in that class it's not even funny anymore. I'm teaching some of the people in there more than the prof. But it's always been like that, so what else is new... Anyways, moving on...

outcydr - OK, maybe it's a bit early in the morning, but I'm a bit of trouble figuring this one out:

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on average--i want to say every 30 but, it's probably more lie 20, so let's say every 25 years sees a generation and, we all are apt to see (as the saying goes) to the 3rd or 4th generation but, to those who care to see--to those who dare to open their eyes there is no end to the paradox*

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The way I read that, it just supports the "anti-God" side of this... Whereas your earlier post seemed to be supporting "God exists." It could be that I'm not awake enough yet, will look at it again at work.

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to my way of seeing, following this reasoning 13) should read:

13) God exists AND does not exist.

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If you can prove any contradiction, i.e. P and ~P are both true, then you can prove anything. With the statement P and ~P, you could prove Carl. - my Math Reasoning Prof.

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Therefore, once you find any contradiction, it logically follows, that every other contradiction is possible.


WS - Time to ease up on the peace-pipe me thinks. Not trying to toot my own horn here, but it was me who brought that up. Unless I missed a post up before mine...
BTW, I'm not sure it's possible to destroy something that doesn't exist. You could try and destroy the concept of God, but that would more than likely involve destroying every human.


Nimraw - As nice as that might be, I wouldn't support such an action.

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I might not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. - Source of the quote fails me at the moment...

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DL-44 - Rock on. And pre-congrats on your 4000th post


________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-26-2002).]

so ummm, yea.

Back to the point, Why did God make the tree of Knowledge?

I think this forum assumes that God is real, so enough of the is God real stuff.



God created the tree of knowledge so that we would eventually be advanced enough to eat the fruit off of it, but unfortunatly the Serpent tempted us and we ate it way before it was time.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 09-26-2002).]

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I think this forum assumes that God is real

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Must say I disagree with you there, but whatever floats yer boat.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

DL, very narrow. No disrespect intended, but yes, very narrow.

Not that it's the only view I've ever held in my life, that's far from the truth. You've heard me say before though that everything I've tested regarding Christianity jives, this was after much exploration of views that didn't.

I will say that many of the issues discussed about the Christian God in this forum, many of the points of confusion are spiritually discerned. That is precisely why the points get twisted and misunderstood and there's no understanding between the 2 sides, one side is discerning with spiritual tools, the other is doing their level best to use every tool but spiritual.

I know I just opened a hole for the scientists to drive a truck though here, sadly thet's not my forté and I'll not defend it on that level. I might try but I wouldn't expect any beautifully coherent dissertations. Science is a wonderful thing, but God knows it ain't my thing =)

Jason

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Back to the point, Why did God make the tree of Knowledge?

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Well alrighty then.

I think Izzy and JKMabry have already done a great job in answering this because it is clearly directed at those who believe the bible. Since they and I do, it seems we should give it our best shot.

mogg, here's how I've come to see it. Let me rephrase your question just a bit.

"Why does God allow humans to hurt other humans, hurt themselves, and/or hurt God Himself?"

God has always existed.
God at one point desired to have relationship with other beings.
He decided to create some for this purpose.
At this point He had a couple choices:
1) Create beings that would always do the right things and never hurt anyone... ever. That is create them so that they would be *incapable* of sin. This option cannot allow free will.
2) Create beings that could freely choose sin or to not. In order for sin to have any meaning, there must be consequences for the damage it causes and those consequences cannot be the same consequences for not sinning. This option fully and completely allows for free will.

The garden story is describing to you how God chose option 2. God made it possible for us to freely choose to walk with Him or to not. That is why the tree of knowledge existed. A few of you have mentioned how important it is for others to not force you to do anything against your will. Well, that's precisely the way it is, you've got it. It's called free will.

Someone brought up the point about why Adam's sin should infect us all. Well, the story holds true even in light of that question. How many of you have never done anything wrong? Unless you are a small child, the answer is zero. The garden story describes reality in that every one of us were born innocent and at one point or another became aware of the concept of right and wrong. And every one of us at one point or another opted to see what it would be like to do wrong. Therefore, we are all guilty under the Law (OT law of Moses).

DL-44 states clearly how he lives as a good person. So even he, who totally rejects the existence of the Christian God, lives according to a concept of "good". So it doesn't matter if you are a believer or not, we all agree we have done wrong.

So here is where the misconceptions about Xian theology come in for some above. I'm telling you this, so you guys understand what we mean when we say it's not about being good or bad that determines who goes to Heaven. It's the very fact that we have *all* fallen short that we are *all* guilty under the Law and deserve it's consequences. So to answer you directly, Lord_Fukutoku, the most important thing Christ accomplished on that cross was to make it possible for *anyone* to go to Heaven. We can't go to God and say we deserve it because of our works because we don't. But we can go to God and say that because He loved us enough to die for us that we have become actual heirs to everything that is His precisely because Christ cleared the way by His work on that cross.

I think I can speak for some of the Xians here when I say that it is our desire for people to understand what we believe so that you are free to make your own decisions with regard to this faith. While it pains me to no end to hear some of the things that are said above, it is not my job to convince any of you of anything, simply to make sure the message is clear and as free from misconceptions as possible.

Do we believe there is only one way to Heaven? Yes, we do. Are we going to shove it down your throats? If God doesn't, we certainly don't have any right to.

. . : slicePuzzle

Just to clarify - there are many christians that I know who hold philosophies such as yours bugimus, and who - like you, and JK, and izzay - don't try to force their beliefs on people.

I have an endless respect for that, and for you guys.

However, the vast majority of "christians" that I have known (as well as many of those that hold some sort of historical signficance) are less christian in their actions than I am, even if they their stated beleifs are overtly so.

I believe in the christian philosophy, except for the references to it's god or his alleged words. Or in the countless evil works falsley done in their name. Or in the very unchristian institutions and political organizations founded on them.

=)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 09-26-2002).]

[edit: Was writing while DL posted. I agree with everything (I think, I only glanced over his post) he said.]

Very nicely stated Bugs. I've found it rather uncommon to be met with that response after some of the things I've said. Granted, I have heard it before, but it's still nice to see a "true" Christian attitude toward it.

Possible links of interest:
Has there ever been a just or perfect person?
Do Christians sin?

Taken from Skeptics Annotated Bible

Before someone jumps all over me because some of those things mentioned are taken out of context or can be interpreted a number of different ways, I know this already. Several of them, even I could "debunk." But there are still many that are spot on.

Just trying to open the door here for any non-believers who haven't stumbled across this site yet.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-26-2002).]

~skim~
~sneak~
~skim~

psst! I get my PC back tommorow shhhhh!

Ok so far after a load of skimming and sneaking in this thread which I am sadly missing, Jason and Jamie have said the wisest things...

And I too respect bugs and jason, I don't see izzy on the religous scene much though....

But as Jamie said, it was a metaphor....

And as Maynard said, it was a metaphor for a missing moment (kudos to those who know what I am talking about )

But, it is clearly obvious that the bible is nothing but an archive of metaphors, similies, useless poetry, and a massive ammount of contradictions.

Yea, it mentions some good ways to live, but the only good ones are the ones that don't involve worship or the use of GOD.

I am just skimming through..... Do da de da do..... La la le lo la..... SHHHHHHH!


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 09-28-2002).]

Insider, That would be my fault. I don?t like to get too deep online. I just looked like I needed to represent here. Arrr... and as you can see, bugs can say what I want to say much better than I.

I would like to break down what I believe about good/bad person.
God is Perfect and Holy. (even more holy than the pear.) To be with God one has to be perfect. We, even in our goodness are still not perfect (take a look around). Therefore we can not be with God. God made one way for us to become perfect. That would be Jesus. When one accepts him, God tosses our sins aside (like a rotten peach bleh), never to be seen by him again. In Jesus the christian is perfect there for he can be with God.
To become a Christian is one of the simplest things to do... yet it seems to be the hardest for people to accept.

Lord_Fukutoku
As far as saying because God could do anything, he could make a rock so big he could not lift it... yet he can do anything...
That sure aint enough proof for me that he aint true. As little as we know about God and spiritual things, it seems a bit silly to fit God into an equation of contradiction.
That?s my take.

Schitzoboy/Jason

That?s right Jason. It is a big decision of which you decide you do believe and you are sure he is God or you don?t. I do know people who are Christians and say they "have their fire protection" but don?t act like it. They are usually the people that bring a bad name to Christians. Got to face it though, people are far from perfect, and there will be all kinds.


                                                           

Whoops! Sorry 'bout that Lord_Fukutoku...that was not intended as a slight.

And no, I don't believe in God...but it is an interesting thought...

It would mean that God (if he existed) is destructable...

It's all good WS. Just wanted to make sure someone else didn't catch the crap for anything I said (and possibly deserved). I've read several threads where I forget who says what and end up jumping on someone who didn't deserve it. Besides, I still haven't quite figured out which side of this outcydr is on, haha. That one thing he said is still going right by me

As I'm sure the case was (if I remember correctly) in the God debate (see my first post in this thread for links), what is enough proof for one may not be for another, and therefore we could go around in circles 'till one of us dies and then can without a doubt go, "Woohoo, I was right" or, "Oh crap, I was wrong..." In either case, you better come back and tell the rest of us, haha

The 'argument' that I showed here is enough for me to not believe. Not because it by itself is sufficient, but because from it you can prove anything (actually everything). If it did stop after that 'argument,' then yes, I can definately see how the opposition could be quite strongly supported if favor of God. But since there are so many things in my head on this subject, from things I've seen, and the many, many 'discussions' in the past, I would never be able to post all of them here.


Society for the Practical Establishment and Perpetuation of the Ten Commandments - I especially 'love' his page on Exposing the Atheist. And the "This page was created by an Ex-Atheist" animation. WARNING: Only go to site if you don't mind completely illogical arguments and extreme... extremism.
It's good for a laugh if nothing else. Except when you realize that he's serious and there are others like him, it's not so funny.


Now, how to end this post... Maybe this:
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

lordy,Lord_
it shouldn't be that hard to figure out which side i'm on--outcydr--get it?
haha
life's like that
we can't prove where it came from or where it goes
but there it is
and that's that

That bit about Satan and Adam being siblings should be a clue. I may have a bit of an issue with that

Agnostic perhaps? haha

Yea, as for the sibling comment (which I missed the first 3-4 times I read this whole thread) even I would argue against. Well, actually I'd argue that neither even existed at all, but in the hypothetical situation that they did, there's a number of things to disagree with it.

[edit:

Bugs

quote:

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God at one point desired to have relationship with other beings.

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To desire something is to show an imperfection, a flaw. According to my way of thinking at least.

quote:

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perfect - adj -

• 1. complete in all respects; without defect or omission; sound; flawless
• 2. in a condition of complete excellence, as in skill or quality; faultless; most excellent

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[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-28-2002).]

bugs--adam and satan were not the siblings
they were the fathers

insider--i dig your catchphrase
_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

edit--prying eyes often see the wrong thing


[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 09-28-2002).]

the catch phrase happens to be the chorus to the end of "third eye" the TOOL song #15 on aenima, so it isn't mine, i am just a massive TOOL fan

and as dg will tell u, i am a tool, which is very true

outcydr - That makes a bit more sense, it was just the way it was worded the first time, because that's the way I interpreted it too.

sidenote - Is it just me, or has Insider been rather well behaved lately? Granted, I've only been here for a short while, but there seems to be a significant difference in the inflection of his posts over the last few months. Could it be the pills are finally taking effect? Maybe someone just smacked him upside the head hard enough to make something go 'click.' Or maybe the pills are just getting to me now...

Well, it's been a year...and ramming your head against a wall for that long is bound to have effects...but yes, he does seem to be 'mellowing out'...let's hope this positive trend continues...

Maybe he's actually starting to mature...

On with the topic!

The thing that confuses me at the moment that one of Jesus' (or God, depending on how you see it) teachings was "Love thy neighbor". He was in Israel at the time. It is 2000 years since then, and we have still learned very little. Israel is a hellhole of bombings and shootings and who-knows-what. If God does exist, how can he allow this to happen?

S^abaal ud T'a johtizuc^ ult'a Fedaro.

Yep yep.

Lord_Fukutoku, I have a feeling that most of the Xians you have run into (or at least you have chosen to challenge) have been of the "fundamentalist" variety. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that. So it shouldn't surprise you that I don't consider desiring relationship with someone else to be a flaw in God's character. I consider it to demonstrate the profound importance of relationship.

In fact, it only underscores why we humans have such a *huge* preoccupation with it as well. Almost everything we do comes out of a desire and search for satisfying relationships with each other and with our Creator. I can only tell you that this is one of those aspects of Xianity that falls into the "given" category for me. It's a core concept and I can't say too much more about it than that.

outcydr, maybe you can come right out (no pun intended) and tell us what you're saying because I'm still a bit fuzzy on your position.

Ramm, please read the answers to mogg's question and you will see the answer to your question. But I would also love to hear from you what you would think to be an appropriate action God could take if He decided to not allow all this mayhem to continue.

quote:

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Well, it's been a year...and ramming your head against a wall for that long is bound to have effects...but yes, he does seem to be 'mellowing out'...let's hope this positive trend continues...

---

Don't jynx it please.....

After 2000 posts in 1 year, 2000/365=5.4 useless posts on average a day even though logicaly daily post count varies due to social life, well to make a long story short after 2000 posts I really want to start helping people more.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 09-30-2002).]

Bugs - Nope. Only one or two times I've got real deep with a fundamentalist. For the most part, the ones I talk to realize that if you were to take everything in the Bible literally, there are far too many places for contraversy or agrument. However, allowing for the Bible to be interpreted means that everyone has a different idea about heaven and hell and God and all that. Just look at all the different denominations of Christianity. I've been to a number of different churches, from good ole Southern Baptist, to Pentacostal, to Methodist, and several others. The variations are amazing. Granted, they have the same general idea for the most part, but there's still too much difference for it to make sense to me. No two people will ever have the same interpretation of any religion unless they are twins that have never left their backyard and never talked to or even met anyone except their parents. For me, looking at all the different denominations of a religion is the same as looking at all the different religions as a whole.
Kinda like what they talk about in the movie Dogma, with Jay and Silent Bob.


I think there was something else I was gonna say but I can't remember... Will try and add it later.

Well, I guess nobody can know anything about anything then? Come on, the text is all right there. There are mountains of works dedicated to learning what the authors meant when they wrote it and even who the authors were for that matter.

It is not as much a matter of interpretation as some people think, IMO. Sure there is plenty there to have differences about, but if you study this stuff a great many things become clear. As far as what certain denominations continue to teach, I challenge them just as I challenge anyone to dig deeper.

One of the reasons I wondered about whether you've dealt with the fundamentalist crowd is because of that page that had all the perfect vs. sinful verses. Like you said, many were pretty sad. I was quite curious to know which of those you thought even had a chance of being 'right on' after a bit of critical analysis.

BTW, since when do S. Baptists not qualify as fundamentalists?

quote:

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the text is all right there. There are mountains of works dedicated to learning what the authors meant when they wrote it and even who the authors were for that matter.

---

The only objection I really have is that...regardless what the authors meant or who they were...it was still just people writing things....and correctly interpreting their meaning still doesn't mean squat about them being correct in the first place.

quote:

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BTW, since when do S. Baptists not qualify as fundamentalists?

---

Not intending to be an ass
I never said they weren't. I said there were minimal times that I've discussed such things with fundamentalists. Then I said I have been to several different denominations churches. The two statements had no relation to each other... In case that was unclear...

As for The Skeptics Annotated Bible, I'll have to wait 'till I get home and have a Bible in hand to be able to read several of them into context, as I don't carry a Bible around with me at school (or anywhere else for that matter).

[edit: duh, forgot where I was looking... Just use the one on the site... However, it'll have to wait a bit cause I'm still "working" right now anyways...

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 09-30-2002).]

All righty, let's see here. Just skimming through Genesis I see a few things "wrong."

It seems God made light before he made the objects that produce light:
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.


Everything is a vegetarian?
Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.


Eat from everything?
Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it


Fowl in heaven?
Genesis 1:20 ...and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Well, we know where we can find birds, but is our atmosphere heaven?


Genesis 3:8 - 11
God cannot find Adam and Eve because they are hiding. Omnicient and omnipresent? Maybe not...


Eve the mother of all beings?
Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. [Speaking of Melchisedec]


Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden...
God expels Adam and Eve from the garden before they get a chance to eat from the tree of life, for fear of them becoming gods as well.


Genesis 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Where'd she come from? The only people around are Adam, Eve, and Cain (Being as Abel was killed). Then he builds a city... (population: 3).


More fun with fanily:
Genesis 4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah
Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.

And because Methusael and Methuselah both begat Lamech, we are lead to believe that it's the same person.


What are these clean beasts, and why are there 7 of each on the ark?
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


Going to drown the fish, is He?
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

quote:

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Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." Now this must have taken some time, along with expert knowledge of taxonomy, genetics, biogeography, and anatomy. How did Noah manage to collect the endemic species from the New World, Australia, Polynesia, and other remote regions entirely unknown to him? How, once he found them, did he transport them back to his Near Eastern home? How could he tell the male and female beetles (there are more than 500,000 species) apart? How did he know how to care for these new and unfamiliar animals? How did he find the space on the ark? How did he manage to find and care for the hundreds of thousands of parasitic species? How did Noah obtain and care for the hundreds of thousands of species of plants? (Plants are ignored in the Genesis account, but the animals wouldn't last long after if the plants died in the flood.) No, wait, don't tell me. A miracle happened. Millions of them.

---

How did the ark rest on Arafat after 7 months, when the mountains weren't visible for 10 months?
Genesis 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
Genesis 8:5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.


Genesis 8:8-11 Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period.

Genesis 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth...
Genesis 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

Well, when was it?


Genesis 8:19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct.


Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
He just caused every "clean" animal in existence to go extinct by sacrificing one of each.

Yea, so back to work...

Yup, some good ol' contradictions there.

The book is filled with them.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Yup. Contradictions...covered all this in the Formal Debate (follow the little white links...hehe).

Personally, the 'God' thing makes no sense to me...esp.. considering the following -

Either we live in a natural world (i.e. reality, universe, whatever you want to call it), governed by natural laws (I'll get to this later), or we live in a 'created' one, with a 'Supreme Creator'.

So, if living in a natural reality (i.e. without a 'Supreme Creator'), then continual progress and evolution makes sense. Exploring our surroundings and overcoming limitations, dangers and boundries also makes sense. Our 'exploratory' perogative (which Mankind seems to have), that pushes us ever further, also makes sense. Increasing our understanding of the natural laws, and how to use them to our advantage, also makes sense.

However

In the case that it isn't natural (i.e. there is a 'Supreme Creator'), then none of the above makes sense...in fact, it is wrong to do just that. In the case of a 'Supreme Creator', then we shouldn't evolve, or move forward, at all. Why? Why should we move forward, when if we live according to the 'laws' laid down by this 'Supreme Creator', we will then go to 'Heaven' when we die? Then it makes no sense, no logical sense, to do anything other than what is laid out for us under these 'laws'. Why explore anything, develope anything, try to understand anything, when it makes no difference? Might as well stay in a 'stone age' state of being...it would be easier to obey the 'laws' laid out for us by the 'Supreme Creator'...just live, then die. Why have children? Why reproduce? Just end the 'cycle'...and allow Humans to go the way of the Dinosaurs...

Do you really think that that would make a difference to Reality? What if the Human race dies out? Tomorrow, let's say...do you really think that this Reality would then cease to exist? Do you really think that a 'Supreme Creator' made all this just for us? That assumes that Mankind is then the only intelligent creature (apart from God, the angels, Satan, and his 'fallen' angels) in the Universe...and that everything is then dependent on Mankinds existence.

However, I know that Mankind is not the only 'intelligent' species in the Universe...and this 'other intelligence' sure as hell isn't mentioned in the Bible, nor did it originate from Adam and Eve. So, either Adam and Eve are not of Human origin (the only way to 'interpret' that part of Genesis in this case...which really would then throw a wrench in the whole thing now, wouldn't it?), or the Bible is just a set of papers written by down-to-earth, stink-normal humans, with a lot of fantasy...

Personally, I feel a lot more comfortable in a natural universe...without a 'Supreme Creator'. There's just so much more to explore, to find out, to understand...a challenge, if you will. And meaning...reasons for existence. With a 'Supreme Creator'...it makes absolutely no sense to me to continue existing...why? What for? So that this 'Supreme Creator' can set forth with his 'Cosmic Play' against the 'Evil One', with us as his 'puppets'? Where the entire reality around us is only there as the 'background' for us to play our roles in?

That sounds ridiculous. Were I to put it in any other context, without the names, and references to the Bible, one would think me funny at best, and totally mad at worst. But 'pop' those names and references in there, and lo and behold! People believe it...

I look at the Angels as being inter-dimensional Aliens. And God is the ruler of some inter-galactic organization that we are not advanced enough to be apart of. Their is no God the creator, only God the ruler.

Webshaman - And about the human's all dying thing. Thats a good point, I mean you can also look at it backwards also. At one point there were only 10 humans, so therfore 10 souls. Now there are over 6 Billion humans, so over 6 billion souls? Where did all these souls come from, and where will they go when we are back to only 10 humans? That is the biggest problem I have with this soul thing. What will happen to all the souls of humans when all the humans die in a huge nucleaur war? And since the population keeps increasing, that must mean that earth is a birthing center for souls...

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-01-2002).]

WS - Very well put.

sidenote --
Gilbert - That reminded me of an essay I saw several years ago about a PChem final exam...

Is Hell Endothermic or Exothermic?

[edit: added link]

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 10-01-2002).]

Lordy, I could go over each point in Genesis (let me know if you would like that). But I think it might save more time and space if I just hit it from this angle. The reason I asked about fundamentalists was because you seem to be attacking the bible from that perspective.

If you think reading the bible literally is stupid, then why attack it by reading it literally? I don't think you should do that. It makes you look... well... you can do better. There are plenty of other killer arguments against it but the ones you cited really don't rank.

Look, what do you know about ancient Hebrew thought? How familiar are you with Babylonian creation stories? When the Hebrews talked about the heavens, what did they see in their minds compared to how you see it when you asked about fowls?

There are major differences between the cosmogony in Genesis and how we see it today. So I'm saying it is wrong to read Genesis with a 21st century Western mindset and expect it to make perfect sense. It can't be done. People who believe in the bible and people like you who think it fantasy read it that way and it makes me sad.

DL-44, I think we can agree that we need to understand what they were saying before anyone decides to believe their claims or not. We should apply the high levels of scientific investigation to all the works of antiquity we come across. We can't go wrong with an ever increasing body of knowledge on this stuff.

We've learned a lot from archaeology since the middle ages and it has only served to better our understanding of Genesis and other books of the bible. In fact, if Lord_Fukutoku wanted to dig deeper, he could find out all sorts of cool stuff about the questions he asked and how they just might not be as contradictory as they seem.

WS, I want to explore more what you said but I don't have time... bummer! I'll be back later.

I hold a similar theory as GN. In the alien aspect anyway. I haven't given to much though to the inter-dimensionality of these aliens, but I digress. I see these aliens calling their race, god. We're human, they're god. It would explain a lot of things. The near identical description of a landing module in... Isaac I think it is and the fact that no one could touch the arc of the covenant. Speaking to god(the race of aliens) through a radio that is remotely powered from space would generate huge amounts of energy. The arc would they slay anyone who touched it because of the residual charge that would remain on it. I just think it makes a lot of sense. We could be created AND be evolving(go figure that both could happen) in any case put forth by any belief. Just my two bits. Back to lurking.


GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

Thank You Bugs for bringing us to the origin of this story.

What has been argued so far has been the Christian interpretation of a Jewish possible adaptation of a Babylonian creation myth. Of course there are discrepencies in the facts, LF and Insider. The story is allegorical not literal. It was written long ago by people with less knowledge trying to make sense of their world.

Being a reformed Jew I raised to look at the philosophical side of the old testament, and not to interpret it so literally.

The story is complex and beautiful IMO. It talks symbolicly about the price of knowledge and maturity. Look at childdren around the age 2 or 3. They have not a care in the world. No worries about the asking of unspoken questions or about any social mores. True innocence. As we mature we gain knowledge of societies rules and eventually our innocence is lost never to be regained.

It is fable about the price of knowledge and man's sundering from paradise. As man has gained knowledge he has moved further away from an idyllic lifestyle adding layers of complexity to his world and his relationships with other men. He gained understanding of how we are different from each other instead of finding solace in how we are the same. He also eventually learned that he could dominate other men. This is the true knowledge of good and evil and hardly paradise.

It also tells of how God gave man freedom of choice, and that his choices had prices. This is a lesson of personal responsibility. I dont think its such a bad thing for a religon to teach.

What gets me are religous fundamentalists who disregard what the bible has to teach in favor beating people over the head with its literality. I like the concept of faith in a higher power and a postive way of treating your fellow human beings. These are OK lessons to learn. I dont care where you get them from, and I have a funny feeling that neither does God.


-tiki, cell 478

Cool beans. And not only is it beautiful but I think this goes to the heart of why this book requires serious consideration and why so many say it's "inspired". When we move past the "fundie" squabbles we get into the real question about why the concepts found there are unrivaled in the time in which they were recorded.

Well (and well put, tikigod...and of course Bugs...my ever-loving sparring partner ), I have never said that the Bible is not full of wisdom...because it is. It is also a fascinating read...that I would recommend to anyone.

However (and you knew that was coming, didn't you?), that in no way, shape or form means that it is the word of a 'Supreme Creator'...and furthermore, the Scientific Method has 'overtaken', if you will, the forefront of exploring the unknown...in a much better way of doing it. The Religious System is...obsolete, in comparison (and yes, this is my opinion, of course).

BTW - Bugs, how do you see the 'extra-terrestrial' thing, and how do you 'weight it' in light of what is in the Bible? What 'changes' would you go through, if you knew that intelligent, extra-terrestial life was out there? I know we sort of did this awhile ago, but I'm really intrigued as to how you would 'weight' this evidence with that in the Bible...or find a way to 'tie it in' with that that is in Genesis.

Now, I'm not talking about Angels being E.T.s...I mean another intelligent race, but not from this planet... (but here, no offence to anyone who believes otherwise...it's all good).

As for 'fundamentalists'...well, they are a lot of fun...hehe...I think I just about drove synthetic into a fit...but hey, he's definetely entitled to his beliefs...I just like having 'fun' poking such people...and, as Bugs pointed out, the Bible is full of nice, fat, juicy bits to do that with...I think Noah is a great place to start...hehe...hoooboy! That musta been some Ark! And of course, there is always the Evolution question...hehehe...

Well on the basis of the flood we can all say without fear that we are direct decendants of Noah. Isn't that a nice little tidbit to have on your resume.

GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

Bugs - Yes, I admit that post about Genesis was rather weak, and is generally reserved for fundies (as you mentioned) which their "debates" are few and far between (at least with me). However, certain aspects, discrepencies in the timing of certain things, and the like, fail to make sense regardless of whether you take a fundie approach or not. "Well, it was 7 months, but kinda 10 months." That's like saying "He's short, but kinda tall. With the black hair that's sorta blonde. Heavyset, but kinda skinny." It just doesn't work. But as I see you don't go for that style of argument in general, I'll move on to something else. (Can't find another way to word that last sentence, but I hope you can figure out the jist of it...)

If someone wants to believe something, then they will. Regardless. When it comes down to beliefs, you can't simply (and sometimes not so simply) prove them wrong; you have to make them want to believe something else.
Along the lines of, "When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you will know why I dismiss yours." - Stephan Roberts

So another way to go about this discussion is for you, as a Christian, to explain why you don't believe any of the other religions (even those similar to Christianity). Obviously you think any other religions must be wrong, at least in a few aspects, otherwise you wouldn't believe what you do. i.e. Prove Zeus doesn't exist. Or Norse gods, or Egyptian gods, Hindu, anything and everything you can think of.

Kind of a sidenote...
For those who actually thought the stories about the flood and Noah were original, please see: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

And I also found one about several different "saviours being crusified," however, I can't find it at the moment. Will add it if I ever find it...

Well, I completely lost what I was talking about when I started looking for those links and ended up here: http://geocities.com/forbidden_area/interv.html

So I'll just end this with an interesting link, kinda humorous, whether you're Christian, Atheist, or whatever... Jesus in Japan?


And then of course, the taglines...

"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do." - Stephan Roberts

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say we are the ones that need help?"--Mark Twain

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 10-02-2002).]

Lord - Pretty good joke...

quote:

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we can predict that all people and all souls go to hell on average

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--More on Jesus-- http://www.jesus.com/merchandise/

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-02-2002).]

Just have to look at it from a mathematical standpoint.

There are 'x' religions that say if you don't believe in this religion, you go to hell (or the equivilent).
There are 'y' religions that you belong to.
There are 'z' religions total.

The odds that you happen to have an incorrect religion are at best: ((z-y)/z)
Two cases are present when you consider whether you are going to hell or not.
1. You belong to a religion that says all non-believers of this faith will go to hell (or the equivilent), in which your chances of going to hell are: ((x-y)/z) <- your best chance for survival.
2. You don't fall into case 1., in which your chances of going to hell are: ((z-x-1)/z)


Yea... Well, there are many possible flaws in this post. I just wanted to have a quick tangent is all.

Lord_Fukutoku,

But first let me say that I believe the crucial fact about the account of Noah in Genesis is *how* the Hebrews tell the story. It is their version of the Great Flood account that we find in so many other cultures. Personally, I think this is strong evidence of an ancient localized but massive flood that occurred somewhere in that area. The entire Noah story is told from the framework of morality and God's displeasure with man's wickedness. The Babylonian version describes the gods as bringing on the flood apparently for want of something better to do as "their hearts prompted them".

Ok, about those 7 or 10 months. Since the ark rested on the highest peak in the mountain range (Ararat) then I suppose it is possible to read that part as it hitting the bottom of the ark on the peak. So it rested there a while longer until the lower peaks became visible as the water level dropped.

Chapter 8:13,14 is harder to reconcile. I would have to look up the Hebrew words to get a better feel for those two verses but it could just be a discrepancy.

BTW, I read that link with the atheist, Mills. Much of the dialogue was pretty standard stuff but I think he totally screwed the pooch on that Luke 19:27 quote. Did you happen to read that part? Just curious.

Also, you make a very good point about pointing out why Xianity stands out from all the other religions to choose from. The very short answer I would offer for that is, grace. Xianity is uniquely based on it. All other major religions, to my knowledge, are works based.

WebShaman, yes, I think we did that a while back. It's a fascinating possibility all the same and I have an answer to it. It is my position that the possible existence of intelligent extra-terrestrial life is *not* contrary to the Christian faith.

As far as I am concerned, any entity that has been created in God's image regardless of physical makeup is "human" enough for me to call a sibling. And since we are all brothers and sisters, we all need Christ. You would see me evangelizing aliens should there ever come a day! LOL!!!

Space is no different than just another large ocean. When Christ walked the Earth, people in the Middle East were unaware of those in the Americas (presumably). And so when Europeans got here what did they find? People. When we cross the galaxy, I cannot help but think that same thing may happen again.

WS, it should be pretty clear that I'm a bit liberal in my theology in that I don't read the Genesis accounts of creation literally. It has gotten me into a bit of trouble with some Xians but my goal is truth and not popularity. The more you study the Bible, the more it becomes clear a strictly literal reading cannot be correct without ignoring indisputable facts in the fields of archaeology and geology.

. . : slicePuzzle

Fascinating, Bugs. Nice read, your post. Just wondering, what if the 'aliens' have a much better, older 'religion'? Or have 'proved' that God doesn't exist? Or have proof of the existence of 'God'?

As for the flood, I think it may be when the 'land bridge' of Gibralter broke...and let in the Atlantic. That would, of course, instigate a massive flood into the whole 'middle-valley...or land?' area. I wonder what was there before? Maybe that's where the Hebrews originated? Well, hard to say...but the 'flood' from this happening must have been gigantic...surely something that would stay in memory, and Tales...like those from the region...

The flood might have also stemed from when Santorini erupted (more like exploded) destroying the Minoan culture. A lot of water in the Mediterranian was displaced and the ash cloud darkened the skies as far as China and the Americas (an unusually long storm in the eyes of the ancient Hebrews).

As for aliens and God. I agree with Bugs that it would not harm my religous beliefs because my beliefs are more philosophical than dogmatic. I like Bugs' metaphor of the oceean , it works. I always thought it was an arrogant presumption that the only intelligent lifeform God created was humans.

As for the aliens proving God doesn't exsist I have a "let's cross that bridge when come to it" attitude. If they have on older and better religon, I bet it will have the same components almost every other religon has(as I said above): faith in a supreme power and a structure for social relationships. This will be ok for some and get religous furor out of others leading crusades, jihads or whatever.

Hmm, is first contact such a good thing? We can't even get along with one another.

quote:

---

It is their version of the Great Flood account that we find in so many other cultures.

---

But what makes you think the Hebrew interpretation didn't come from some other culture from an earlier time? I would really like to see a timeline of the flood stories, mainly because I really don't know which ones came before the others. I'm sure that if you go back and do some serious research into each of the cultures, you would probably be able to follow a sort of pattern around an area, possibly around the world as the story developed. And it's not just the flood story, but Jesus being crucified as a "sacrafice" to pay for the sins of man 'evolved' from another prior culture. However, I still can't find the site that gave many of the different crucifixions from different groups of people, similar to that site with all the floods. The only big difference I remember is it had a vague timeline. But since I can't find that site, I won't try and argue that right now.

Now I'm kinda interested in how you interpret Luke 19:22-27. I just skimmed over most of it the first time I went through it, because, as you said, most of it is pretty standard.

quote:

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All other major religions, to my knowledge, are works based.

---

Well, that gives me something to start looking for. I take it I would be incorrect to take from that quote that you wouldn't ever consider any minor religions? And this of course doesn't take into account any parts of the Bible that say it takes more than just faith to be "saved." Or are you of the group that is solely for the faith only will get you into heaven?

quote:

---

As for the flood, I think it may be when the 'land bridge' of Gibralter broke.

---

How about the other flood stories from other parts of the world? The flood idea isn't original to the Mid-East... Which is kinda what I was trying to get at in a previous post.
But the thing I still have trouble with is this: OK, we know that ancient peoples were apt to explain most (very possibly all) natural occurences as being directly related to a god, or gods. Very common things, such as: the seasons, rain, lightning, drought, and so on. Why should this flood be any different? Just because it hasn't happened since then? Well, who says it hasn't? There have been a great number of floods, even in recent years. Most of Europe was under water here recently, within a few months at least, right? Then the Mississippi River here in the states seems to flood every few years. Large parts of Texas looked like they were completely under water last year. If you go back and look at pictures of these, it's not hard to imagine how relatively unsophisticated people several thousand years ago would have seen this. Especially if they happened to have an unusually big flood.


All right, well I just got sidetracked talking to someone else, so I'll end this post here.

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

Lord_Fukutoku, yes, I'm sure that the flood stories from other cultures are based on natural occurances...and since most early civilizations were situated on big rivers/coastlines, it only makes sense that flooding (which would occur more often than other natural disasters) occured often. And that really major flooding would, of course, find it's way into the 'god' thing...early religions did act as a way of preserving information...

But the flood mentioned in the Bible was of really apocalyptic purportions. Tiki brings up a very feasible reason, as is the Gibralter land-bridge (that we know broke...scientists are still squabbling over when it occured...). Of course, a meteorite impact in the red sea area on a big enough scale could do it, as well.

But you're right, when you say that many natural occurances were prescribed to 'divine' actions...that was also covered in the Formal Debate...(by me, if I remember correctly ).

Yes, I believe it was you who pointed that out

From what I've read on the flood story, I think it's possible the Babylonians and the Hebrews may have gotten it from the Sumerians. But I haven't really dug into this issue much, I just read that in one commentary I have.

. . : slicePuzzle

Hey Bugs...take a look at your post count, buddy...Party in Bugs cell!!!!

Whohooo! The big 3000 comin' on...!

Keep those posts coming, Bugs!

quote:

---

"...An actual Layer of Mud, evidently deposited by the
Flood, has been found in three separate places: Ur, which is 12
miles from the traditional site of the Garden of Eden; at Fara,
traditional home of Noah, 60 miles further up river; and at Kish,
a suburb of Babylon, 100 miles still further up river; and,
possibly, also a fourth place, Nineveh, 300 miles still further
up the river. At Ur, city of Abraham, the Joint Expedition of
the University Museum of Pennsylvania and the British Museum,
under the leadership of Dr. C. L. Woolley, found (in 1929) near
the bottom of the Ur mounds, underneath several strata of human
occupation, a great bed of solid water-laid clay 8 feet thick
without admixture of human relic, with yet the ruins of another
city buried beneath it. Dr. Woolley said that 8 feet of sediment
implied a very great depth and a long period of water, that it
could not have been put there by any ordinary overflow of the
rivers, but only by such vast inundation as the Biblical Flood.
The civilization underneath the flood layer was so different from
that above it that it indicated to Dr. Woolley 'a sudden and
terrific break in the continuity of history'" (see: Woolley's UR
OF THE CHALDEES).

---

...This is from this site... http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/CRIM004.TXT

This is quite more substantial than any flood in modern history.

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[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-07-2002).]

So...gonna 'pop' some 'belief' bubbles here...for all those who literally believe in the Bible...

According to Genesis here, God created everything (including man) in '7' days...taken literally, that means 7 days...

OK, so what, I 'hear' some saying...so bear with me...

From the lineage 'tree' in the Bible, we can make the argument that man is then around 16,000 years old (give or take)...let's say a good, round 20,000 years...and as everything was created in those 7 days, so must the Universe also be as 'young'...or old.

But

The fact that light is a constant (strange that the sciences of astronomy and physics would be the ones to 'blow' this out of the water...) shows us that this is not possible. For there are both stars, and Galaxies that are more than 20,000+ light years from us. And therefore, if the universe is only 20,000 years old, we wouldn't be able to see the light of these objects yet! The only other ways to explain that is -

That astronomy is wrong with the distances.

or

God created the light from these objects before (or at the same time as) the objects themselves.

Both explanations are stretching it....

So a literal take of the Bible is...wrong.

Have a nice day....



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-08-2002).]

You know, I have a problem with some sophomore/juniors in my school who tend to have the same literal translation.

One of them said and quote: '7 days then could me thousands of years now'.

But what gets me on that one is that, when the bible was allegedly written it was written in the day where we have established day. If it was meant to be thought of as thousands of years, then it would have specified so in the book.

The problem with people today is the won't compare christianity to other religions, or even realism. Christians automatically assume that their religion is the right one and that all people who oppose it, go to hell. What a comforting thought no? You wanna know how many times I have been told I am going to hell?

Well I'll tell you.

First of all, I willingly revealed the fact that I was atheist to the sophomores/juniors. After that, I was called a satanist, a racist, a nazi, and I was accused of hating my country . And everytime I walk in that class, they like to call me devil boy. Real fucking intelligent you know?

It isn't easy putting up with morons, I'll tell you. It certainly isn't. First of all I have to take shit from them everyday, and second of all my school won't DO shit because they too are ignorant fucks who go to church every sunday.

And guess what!? There's a christian club in my school! Wanna know what it's called? Jeasus Freaks! No joke!

People also think it's amusing to ask me if I am going to church on sunday, when they know the answer. Damned the rhetorical questions.

God? I hate him.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

Well, InSiDeR...taking apart this

quote:

---

'7 days then could me thousands of years now'

---

is really very easy...don't see why you had problems making them look like total idiots...

A 'Day' is defined as one daylight and night cycle (for us, anyway...). To seriously state the above opinion, is ludicrous. That a day/night cycle lasts 'thousands' of years...heh. Guess no plants would survive that night cycle...what do you think?

No, I don't 'see' that happening...

But back to my post...you see, the first option cannot be wrong (distance-wise), at least, not to the point that everything is within 20,000 light years from us...otherwise, because of gravity, things would be moving towards us...not to mention that most galaxies are more than 20,000 light years big in dimension (which would mean that we are within many galaxies at once, and not just one...).

The second option is a bit...more difficult to disprove (as are all 'miracle' things...). However, it would mean that the 'Big Bang' never happened...that everything came into existance 'as is'. Second, the amount of actual energy in the universe would be far greater (and I mean far greater...by an enormous magnitude) as one would expect...because the light that had to travel from all those objects that are more than 20,000 light years (that includes most of them) would then have had to be 'created' so that we could see it. Proving this, would suggest that a 'Supreme Creator' had his hand in the game...which would then 'defeat' the notion that God has left no 'provable' evidence to its existance. Of course, one would need to develope a FTL drive, to test this. This would, in turn, apart from the 'proving' thing, alter the close/open discussion...with that amount of 'extra' energy, the universe would be with all probability 'closed' (light has mass...).

quote:

---

don't see why you had problems making them look like total idiots...

---

I try...

But when people gang up on you in a dispute, they put themselves in the mental state where in this case 4v1, the 4 are more secure and never feel wrong as long as they back each other up on the comment that made..

Oh and I have succeeded a few times. But they never quit. Pisses me off.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-08-2002).]

Hmmm...I take it you are still in High School...right? Well, if you get the chance, try taking a Debate class...that is, if it interests you. I did, and I never regretted it. My Debate teacher was also a wonderful teacher...and one of the toughest debaters I've ever come across...she was 'hell on wheels' when it came to Debate.

The Debate can be divided into many different parts...and teaches one how do deal with each area, either pro or con. Of course, it won't make you a better person, but will give you the necessary skills to support your position...which, later in life, is quite useful...it will also give you the experience of doing so before an audience...which is a very valuable experience in and of itself. I always liked that part..tearing someone apart before an audience...

Of course, one should also be prepared to be torn apart...keeps one humble, I suppose...

I would tend to think you often let your emotions cloud your better judgement...which is pretty common at your age (and many don't grow out of it... ). Learning to control the 'emotional surges' in a Debate situation (and therefore presenting oneself much better) is a very valuable skill...it is not really a case of convincing others, but of presenting your point of view better. Mastering the 'emotional plea' is very hard...and retaining control over a mass (or group) that have been 'emotionally influenced' is even harder. As is retaining mastery over oneself in an emotional situation...

One can sometimes see it here...flaming, for example. Or the 'witch hunts'...when the loonies start 'howling'...hehe...

TwItch^, and DG are what I would consider Masters of the 'emotional Debate'...they can reduce someone to nothingness with the scathing of mere words...but you will notice that it is a 'controlled' Mastery...they know what they are doing and rarely lose control of themselves...well, most of the time...

That's one of the difficulties of the 'emotional plea'...retaining control (as I said above).

So, even when they come at you in groups, there are ways to get around that. The biggest problem with such a Debate though, is when ones opponents are under the effect of Belief. Normally, a lost cause before it starts. Someone who is 'affected' by Belief, is not normally capable of being convinced otherwise...and normally degenerate into the 'emotional' arena...whereby if there are curious onlookers/an audience, this can be quite amusing...the first to lose their tempers (and therefore control), normally are not capable of supporting their own postion in the eyes of others (unless they share this Belief, as well).

But I digress from the topic...back to the original topic.

I therefore agree with Bugs that the Bible cannot be taken literally...which is one of the reasons that I don't believe that the Bible is the book of God. The other main problem I have with the Bible, is that in light of the fact that the Bible can't be taken literally, how, then, should one take it? And in what form? And who decides on how the Bible should then be understood? Because, if it can't be taken literally, then it can be taken in such a number of possible ways, that no-one can say which one way is correct. The Bible, as a History of the Hebrews, a collection of wisdom, and storehouse of interesting knowledge from the past aside, is, without the literal part, just a book, after all...and nothing more.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-08-2002).]

Gilbert - Oh my, that was some great reading... Fiction, no doubt, but it wa a great story none-the-less. I especially like this part:

quote:

---

Horrible battles between the humans and their ancient reptilian adversaries were fought in the bowels of the earth. Corrupted accounts of these conflicts made their way to the surface in the form of stories of alleged battles between the "teros" and "deros", and other legends of underground conflicts, such as humans fighting dragon-like creatures in
underground lairs, etc.

---

And these must be the people who are responsible for Magic: The Gathering, I'm sure. The similarities are astounding, haha.
However, if that's what you really believe, then no offense. To each his own. I just find it highly amusing is all, as I do most religions.

Uhhh...Lord_Fukutoku? You didn't actually read the whole article, did you? It's...long. I tried to, really...just...too...long.

My head hurts...EBE's everywhere...*looks around*

haha, no no no. Didn't make it the whole way through. Just the first several pages worth. Whenever I have a spare hour or two this week, I'll probably try and skim my way through most of it, because as I said, it makes great fiction. Well, the content at least is entertaining, the actual writing isn't real great, but that's where you have to use your imagination haha

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

WS - You're a really cool guy. I'll admit having butted heads with you earlier in my attendence in the asylum but I'm re-evaluating my opinions. Very good advice to InSiDeR.

InSiDeR - I'm liking this new leaf of yours. Keep it up. WS has a good point in relating to your... ahem... 'debate partners'. Let them explode first and lose their perspective. They're bound to make a mistake somewhere, especially if they quote the bible. Of course, proving this to them will just make them more emotional and not change their minds but you might make some other people think twice before dismissing your point of view, or believing what these guys are saying about you.

GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

Yea, Lord F, I wouldn't look at it as fact, but there are some facts mixed in. It's some guys (His name is Branton) depiction of piecing together a bunch of UFO reports and wierd stuff. I don't know if its all true (or even some of it), but it sort of goes along with a lot of popular myths. Like the Irish and the Tuatha De Danann, and the Native Americas and the Havmusuvs, and of course in Africa you have the Imanujela, and then there are all the ancient written texts of India.

Anyway.... Just like everything, nothing can be proven....

Tuatha De Danann - http://www.belinus.co.uk/folklore/Files9/WildeL046.htm

Havmusuvs - http://v-j-enterprises.com/mojave1.html

India - http://ebe.allwebco.com/Sections/AncientVisitors/Archive/Indian_Tech.shtml

Africa - http://www.davidicke.net/emagazine/vol6/spectmutwa.html



-^^-
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Hmmm...GN, you forgot the recently discovered 'white tribe' (now extinct) in South America...

And yeah, there's probably something with all the 'exotic' evidence that has come to light over the ages...but until it is seriously investigated, we are only left with...supposition.

But it is fun...conjecturing...I kinda like doing that.

Hey it was a test to see how human will keep his promis to god...well he didnt too late...

Adam and Eve is not a REAL story... It's a symbolic story. What you have to look at is the moral behind it, not the story itself. God asked them to do just one thing and they did not trust him so they did it anyway, so they got what they got, they felt embarrassement being naked and got kicked of of the Eden. Don't take this as if God is a punishing God, no, the moral is that if you don't trust God which knows whatz best for you, well you're going to end up the wrong path.

Welcome to the Asylum Blinkie. Hope you enjoy the stay...and don't give your pills to wakky...

Now, I don't particularly agree, that 'God' knows what's best for us...maybe (if there is a God), maybe not. One thing I do believe, however, is that it's time that Mankind took responsibility for itself, and started charting its own course, good or bad. It's the only way we'll grow up, as a species, IMHO.

Absolutly, Webshaman.

As long as people keep saying God is on their side, they feel justified in doing all sorts of bad things. I mean look at what the Catholics did in Mexico - slaughtering Millions of people. Look at what American's did to the Native American's. Look at what we do to the trees and animals. All because we think we have God's blessing to 'be in control of all the other species of animals' (or however that quote goes.)

~Insert sig here~

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-17-2002).]

Ok Gilbert the problem is see most of the poeple in this damn world are fucking stupid even if they read the bible...take a look at Afgans, see Quaran says no bad shit at all, its they are fucking stupid cuz they cant relize what the hell they are doing...another thing in medieval Europe catholic church use to tortue people underground cuz they didnt go to church...u see u cant just talk about god bad or whatever...its all our fault we dont understand what he wants us to do or what we should be doing...none of us are perfect and none of us will be...even Jesus wasnt perfect, he was tempted...just dont find this offensive

Ruski - Maybe we don't understand what God wants because he has never told us.

~Insert sig here~

Maybe He never told us, because He's not there...


[edit: One lousy line and it still has a typo...
________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 10-18-2002).]

hehe...time for one-liners?

...maybe you just aren't listening.

Maybe he doesn't talk...

Cell 816

outcydr beat me to it! Along that line though, do any of you remember the band called the Church? Well, there's a song on their Starfish album called Lost and it has a line, "Bow your head down to worship some god, he never speaks to me I wonder if that's odd. Then he says, you're never listening."

No... No. He doesn't need to talk. He did his talking a couple thousand years ago. If you believe and have faith then you already try to follow the Ten Commandments and believe that Jesus died for you. Regardless of what symbology the Bible holds for you, its just a book. It isn't an instruction manual for how to live your life. If you follow the Ten Commandments and believe that Jesus died for your sins then that's all you need to do. (And Imagine, I'm not even Christian)

People need to take responsibility for their actions, pure and simple. If people would just learn to follow the simple 'rules' and quit trying to make the Bible mean something then maybe we could start getting along. The devil didn't make you do it. He provided a choice and you took it. You can't wipe away the results of what you've done by going to confession. The best you can do is clear your soul if you're truly repenting, which is to say you learn from your mistakes. Confession isn't an act of responsibility, it's an act of guilt. An act of responsibility would be facing the punishment for whatever you've done and taking the blame on yourself and then not doing the 'bad' thing again.

Now, since I don't believe in the Devil, or evil for that matter, I think people are just looking for a way to hide from who they really are. Everyone has done something 'bad' in their lives. I think people are afraid to face what's really inside themselves. In this striving reach for perfection of the soul they forget that they need to just live life and deal with things as they come along. Living life well doesn't necessarily mean living life perfectly. It just means that you are willing to truly repent(get punished) for the things you do wrong and learn from those experiences.

GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

well thats true dude god said what we should do couple a thousands years ago...even if human is not perfect Bible is ..its just like i said people dont understand it.

God does exists.... and the bible is important, people just dont know how to interpret the bible and they start making opinions of their own on what "God wants" and they make themeselves belive that's right. The problem is not God, its humanity and what they choose to be or do. They use God as an excuse for their mistakes. Don't take me wrong, I'm not a curch fanatic, I donn't agree with a lot of the things the church does and how sometimes they trie to control people. You just have to have faith in God, hes alright after all.

quote:

---

..its just like i said people dont understand it.

---

quote:

---

God does exists.... and the bible is important, people just dont know how to interpret the bible and they start making opinions of their own on what "God wants" and they make themeselves belive that's right.

---

Alright then would both of you please share with us how we are all supposed to interpret the Bible?

Both of those statements are the hypocritical hilights of this thread.

100+ replies already. And now we're just kicking a dead horse here. I think we've covered just about every angle we could, so why drive it into the ground?


makes a motion to close this thread and not create Part 2

[edit: Fooled ya... I didn't actually have to go and edit this...]

________________________________________________________________
-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 10-20-2002).]

"...please share with us how we are all supposed to interpret the Bible?"

at the risk of kicking a dead horse

i believe it pretty much interprets itself. like every other subject matter, it's a matter of study.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation."
2Peter 1:20

prophecy: a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring
the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the
wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden

Use your head dude...try reading it, but dont just do what it says...if you know what common sense is well maybe you will undestand what bible trys to say...when reading try to compare or picture the mistakes people do and did back in that time....

quote:

---

i believe it pretty much interprets itself. like every other subject matter, it's a matter of study.

---

Thanks for that. Yes yes yes. That's the only way to understand something properly. There are thousands of years of history, religious thought, culture, etc. in the Bible along with, I believe, a divine message. In order to hear that message accurately, we need to be prepared to dig in with some disciplined study.

Ruski have you tried reading the Koran or the Torah?

...

Hypocrites.

InSiDeR, what definition of hypocrite are you going by? I'm not understanding why you're calling them that.

Ok, threads getting kinda long...continued here.