Topic awaiting preservation: Let's talk about real evil...and horror... (Page 1 of 1)

First, read this and then think about the recent 'takes' of the US government in regards to North Korea.

I just saw a documentary on this last night...on hidden camera, of course. Children eating their own dead parents (dead through starvation) to stay alive...and interviews with these children.

Just how can we sit back and let such things occur, and then say we must attack Iraq? I can make no sense out of it...

We are talking about children here...it sickens me to the core of my being.

How can North Korea spend money to create nuclear weapons, and let their people starve, and eat themselves? Sickening, isn't it? Isn't this more 'evil' than Saddam could ever be? And more dangerous...

I don't know about you, but this really gets to me...

I've thought for a long time that the priorities of the world governments are a little screwed up... This sort of thing just clinches it...

*shudder*

Bodhisattva: an enlightened being full of generosity who chooses to remain on this plane in order to help others find enlightenment.
Cell 617

WS: That is the problem of creating 'pariah states'. North Korea has been in real trouble for years - a year or so ago I read about people having to eat leaves just to fill out their stomachs. They have made some efforts to reach out to other countries but I believe lumping them in with the Axis of Evil has rather set this process back a few steps.

The main problem is that their nuclear weapons/fuel industry is one of their few industries - Pakistan (and pos. India?) have had their nuclear weapons programmes aided by material from North Korea (and China). What we really need to do is bring North Korea onto our side as quickly as possible and dismantle or control their nuclear facilities not go around pointing fingers and starting wars.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I hear y'all but, it still sickening to picture a situation where cannibalism is the last resort to a human being.

I mean I come from a country where I've seen some pretty disturbing scenes caused by drought and war but this really blew me off!

~shudders some more~

--Wachori ni watu wanaotengeneza grafix--

Sorry I hadn't spotted that the report comes from 1999 - which ties in with what I was saying. Things are bad but they were really bad a while back when crops had failed for a number of years on the run.

Cannibalism is an understandable response to the worst famines although reports do tend to be hearsay and pos. exaggerated (esp. bu people with a possible agenda).

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I hear you Emps...really, I do. But we are talking about cannabalism here...now, why do you think they are eating each other? Hmm?

Well, it's because they have no other choice...they cannot flee. China has set bounties on North Korean defectors heads. When caught, these people are sent back to North Korea, where they are sentenced to death. Only those who manage to get themselves 'sold' into China escape...and we all know what that means. A male North Korean child goes for about 2000 Yuan. Pretty cheap, when you think about it. We won't even talk about the women...*shudder*. Must be a paradise for pedophiles...

Can you imagine having to sell your own children, just to survive? Or eat them? Or they eating you when you have died from starvation?

So...to live, eat someone else. That's monstrous. Plain and simple. Any leader(s), that has such things happening, must act. If not, then the world must. The leader(s) have to be called to pay for such...irresponsibility. There can be no 'moderation' here...people there cannot wait. How can we call ourselves responsible, upright, dignified human beings, when we allow this to go on?

Sometimes, I can really understand DG...especially on this one...

*sigh*

And Emps...though that report is old...it has also been supported by this here. Also, the documentary that I saw on this was relatively newer...with much more 'evidence'. Hidden camera from the Chinese side, with live interviews. And contrary to what many may believe, the situation over the years since the first report that I posted has gotten worse...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-23-2002).]

Well, I guess some people might be expecting me to respond here, but I'm not sure if I'm up to it now. WS, check your e-mail and you'll see why.

I'll be back, maybe, after I pull myself together...

WS: I agree totally with you the situation is appalling - I've read a lot of stuff on cannibalism and the only famine I can think of that comes close to this kind of thing was the famine in Egypt around 1200 AD (Cairo and Misr were very badly hit) although there are good contemporary reports its not clear how much is hearsay and exaggeration - with these current reports we can be more sure that things are as bad as they say.

As is clear this has been very bad for years and what is being done about it? Certainly labelling North Korea as part of the Axis of Evil was a step backwards.

Suho1004: Hope everythings OK.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

But Emps...the leaders of North Korea are responsible for this...situation. Directly. They are directly responsible for the poeple of North Korea. They could ask for help...they could make major consessions, and would receive help. Instead, they take the 'light water' reactors in return for not going ahead with a nuclear weapons program, then do it anyway. And all the while, the people starve. And eat each other. And die. And sell one another.

Why?

WS: They have been reaching out recently as I've said before it was the Axis of Evil speech which put this process back.

They have been engaged in their nuclear programme because it is one of the few things that they can use to get money into the region.

I'm not condoning what they've done but there are still pockets of Cold War paranoia that need to be cleared away and NK is certainly one of them.

[edit: Technically what they have done is sell their missile technology in return for nuclear technology (although, of course, they can now sell that on ).

Reports:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,816497,00.html
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kn.html

quote:

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North Korea, one of the world's most centrally planned and isolated economies, faces desperate economic conditions. Industrial capital stock is nearly beyond repair as a result of years of underinvestment and spare parts shortages. Industrial and power output have declined in parallel. Despite a good harvest in 2001, the nation faces its eighth year of food shortages because of a lack of arable land; collective farming; weather-related problems, including major drought in 2000; and chronic shortages of fertilizer and fuel. Massive international food aid deliveries have allowed the regime to escape mass starvation since 1995-96, but the population remains vulnerable to prolonged malnutrition and deteriorating living conditions. Large-scale military spending eats up resources needed for investment and civilian consumption. In 2001, the regime placed emphasis on earning hard currency, developing information technology, addressing power shortages, and attracting foreign aid, but in no way at the expense of relinquishing central control over key national assets or undergoing widespread market-oriented reforms.

---

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,815167,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,814453,00.html

and other stuff]

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I'm also unsure we can really say which crazed despot is more 'evil' (in the broadest sense of the word) but I would certainly still give Saddam my vote if pushed - his gassing of the Kurds and destruction of the Marsh Arabs (read Thessiger's book on them to find out what a unique and amazing culture has been destroyed there) clinch it for me (although I am also biased as I have met a lot of Kurds in Turkey [I also met Thesiger very briefly once] and if I lived closer to North Korea I might have a different opinion).

However, they do still seem open to diplomatic pressure while (despite his games) Saddam isn't.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Fuck politics they will do anything to fill their pockets with green papers....

God damn it! Just lost a ton of text...I'm sorry, I'm pretty pissed off with myself right know...I'll post later, after I cool off...

Stupid connection...I'm going to fix that, once and for all...

nevermind...

teamEarth ~~ Cell 816

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-23-2002).]

We drew the line around Kuwait and Saddam crossed it.
We won a war against him and he agreed to our demands in return of a cease fire, yet failed to honor them.
Now we have him by the balls and have the clout to do something about him whether any other country wants us to or not.
That is our claim to Saddam.

In North Korea we have no immediate claim.
Despite their attempts at tunneling under the DMZ and some mishaps at sea, they've largely abided by the terms of the ceasefire.
The terms did not say they could not develop their own nukes or any such disarmament.

Cleenton (the asterik man) asked NK nicely to stop their nuke procurement programs in return for aid, money, and replacement reactors for their plutonium producing ones.
Which was the stupidest move ever.. they just made the program secret (duuh).
Not such a bad move for C*****n... suspension of disbelief on his administrations part puts a potential problem of his tenure farther off into someone else's term. C*****n? an opportunist? Naaah.

However there is no retaliation called for in an agreement based solely on money in exchange for deeds. We can't war over the cost of aid and building reactors. We can't even jail debtors here.

So... having no immediate accusation of negated responsibility on the NK's part in any agreement with us or the world community, we have no cause for war.
Iraq.... we have all sorts of cause and are just in doing so.

Now would I march into PyongYang and wipe that smirk of Kim Chong-il's face?
In a split-second I would, hell yes.
But as everyone can see with Iraq even when the enemy has shown overwhelming defiance to the global community... anything short of a direct assault on Pearl Harbor, makes the US the bad guy in wanting to protect the world.
Yes, we are the police of the world.
And like our own police, we are for the most part, untrusted, misunderstood, and unappreciated.



[This message has been edited by genis (edited 10-24-2002).]

Emps: Thanks for the concern, but I'm OK. WS and I just happened to be having a similar conversation elsewhere and it started to get to me. I do have to comment on something you said, though...

quote:

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there are still pockets of Cold War paranoia that need to be cleared away and NK is certainly one of them.

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I want to get this straight now: are you saying that the U.S. reaction to NK is a product of Cold War paranoia? It's probably safe to say that I'm fairly well-informed on the NK situation, and I can tell you that we cannot be paranoid enough. At least the nation of Iraq is not starving to death. In North Korea, though, the people are dropping like flies, and Kim is still running around pretending that everything is OK.

As for NK reaching out, that's a joke. Kim may be an ambassador of goodwill while abroad, but do you know what he does when he gets back home? He preaches about the glorious social revolution that can only be realized through the barrel of a gun (sound familiar?), and he prophesies the fall of the evil West that stands in the way of this revolution. You think they want U.S. troops out of South Korea so they can begin a peaceful reunification process (as they claim)? Hah! The second the last U.S. troop leaves these shores, the second Korean War starts, and then it's going to be one nation, under Kim, with tyranny and starvation for all.

You may think I'm overreacting, but I'm not. NK has a large number of agents in South Korea as we speak, working to subvert the democratic system. They interfere in every election, pulling strings to try to get pro-NK politicians in office. All those student demonstrations they have? You can bet the farm that somewhere in the mix is at least one NK agent provocateur. The first Korean War was a blitzkrieg south that overran Seoul, but North Korea has been preparing for the second Korean War for almost fifty years now (technically, it wouldn't even be the second since, technically, we're still at war), and this time it's not going to be a simple military strike. Their aim is to tear down South Korea from within and without, and don't for one second let them make you think differently. Kim Dae-jung's Sunshine Policy is a joke, and NK plays along only because it benefits them. They have absolutely no intention of going all the way and ceasing hostilities with the South.

Huh. I bet it sounds like I hate North Korea with every fiber in my body. Well, that's not the case. In fact, I love North Korea, and it takes everything in me not to cry when I hear stuff like what WS posted above. Heck, I'm crying right now as I write this. None of it comes as a shock or surprise, because I've heard it before, but it never stops shaking me. The leadership of North Korea may be a megalomaniacal clique that considers itself worthy of deification, but the people are of the same blood as the people here. The rift that separates these two countries does not just divide land, but blood and spirit as well. What must it be like to live every day knowing that you brother, your son, or your parents are living on the other side of a seemingly impenetrable curtain. These days North Korea has allowed their citizens brief reunions with family members in the South, and that always gets to me. Not the reunion itself, which is certainly moving, but the moment when that reunion is over and they are torn apart again, not knowing if they'll ever see each other again. Crap, I'm crying again.

No, I'm not Korean, and I never will be, strictly speaking. But seeing as my better half is Korean, I consider myself to be 50% Korean. As I told WS, I may never become a part of Korea, but Korea has become a part of me. The situation is dire, and something needs to be done. Who's going to do it, and when? I don't know the answer to that....

This is why I didn't want to post here yesterday. This is my home, this is where I live my life--I can't go around feeling like this everyday. My life would be nothing but misery. So I have no choice but to cram it down inside, bottle it up, and hope it stays there. In my job, I translate stuff on North Korea all the time, and when I do so I have to be objective--I have to distance myself from the subject, so to speak. Most of the stuff is not like what WS posted above, but, like I said, I've heard all those things before. Do I ignore it, go on with my life, and pretend this stuff is not going on a few hours away from where I live? Or do I dwell on it, and get dragged down by the misery of it all? Neither of those is desirable, but the former is "easier" than the latter. So, I have had my say. This is a crude sample of how I feel about the subject--it would be impossible for me to put it all into words.

You will forgive me if I don't participate any further in this conversation. Don't take it as a cheap shot--that I just want to have my say and get out--honestly, this issue hits a little too close to home for me to have a rational discussion about it. I actually tried to do that here, but you can see how that turned out.

Emps, I meant no offense, and I hope you don't take any. I just had to let you know where I stand on this.

quote:

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How can North Korea spend money to create nuclear weapons, and let their people starve, and eat themselves? Sickening, isn't it? Isn't this more 'evil' than Saddam could ever be? And more dangerous...

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Like this.

Ok. Let's step back for a minute, and comptemplate what Master Suho posted. My heart feels for you, buddy. Yes, it does.

So. Now let's examine the situation with a critical eye. Why would I think that North Korea is more of a danger than Saddam?

Well, it's not the direct threat (though it is there), that I'm worried about..no, not that (though I think if I lived in South Korea, that might be a bit different, now, wouldn't it?). Rather, here is a country that has started a war before...a terrible war. They defintely haven't forgotten our 'role' in it...and neither have many of the vets that I know who fought in that war. Anybody here remember Pork Chop Ridge?

So, the history of the region is certainly one that we should not take lightly...no, I think that would be incorrect, and certainly dangerous. And though North Korea certainly does pose a threat to many of our boys and girls in uniform over in South Korea (esp. when one considers that, yes, North Korea has nukes now), I'm more concerned over the possiblitlity of North Korea selling one (or more) nuclear weapons to Al-Qaeda. Would they do that? I'm sure they would, if the price was right. And Al-Qaeda certainly has the money...

But how would they do it? Ahh, but that is the question, isn't it? Certainly all 'eyes' are on the region, so handing a nuke to such an organization wouldn't be easy...or would it? Well, North Korea has subs...yup, they do. Well, they're not the greatest subs in the world (to be blunt - among the worst, actually), but they would be more than enough to transport a nuke secretly. To somewhere in an ocean, where the sattelites aren't looking. To make an exchange.

And that is the main reason why I view North Korea as more dangerous than Saddam...because Saddam may have nukes...or may not. But North Korean does have nukes...and has admitted it. They also violated the agreement they had with the US to obtain them (and also obtained the two light water reactors in agreement not to produce nukes). Therefore, irregardless of what North Korea says, it cannot be trusted. The real question is, why does North Korea need nukes? That it is willing to funnel large sums of money into that area (and succeeded) at the cost of starving its own people to death, and practically forcing them to eat one another just to survive, definitely points to the suspicion that North Korea needs nukes badly (or thinks it does). But why, and for what? Well, either to attack with...and one hopes that is not the case...or to use as a 'bargaining' tool...but that does seem a bit...much. Or to sell...

And that, my friends, is what we must prevent, at all costs. We cannot afford to have groups like Al-Qaeda running around with nukes. That must be clear to all. One must only think about Al-Qaeda having a russian sub (one can buy them...and they have tried it before, but were prevented), and then 'arming' it with a nuke...and then sending it on a suicide journey to somewhere...maybe Los Angeles? New York? Somewhere else? Does it even matter where? Or maybe a 'midnight' action, to actually get a nuke into the US? With that, they could blackmail the US to Kingdom come. Not to mention exploding it somewhere within the US...

Or how about putting a nuke inside of an oil tanker? My god, the mind quails at all the different possibilites...no, I think we must take the threat of this very seriously...and it is a very real threat. The North Korean leadership has proved, without a doubt, that they are more than capable of inhuman attrocities...so the selling of a nuke surely wouldn't bother them...

Why do I seem to be the only one to see this? Surely we can't just ignore this threat...or the plight of the North Korean people. And as for negotiating...what, do you think that Norht Korea is just going to hand over these nukes and say ' I'm sorry? '

Somehow, I don't think so...

Suho1004: Sorry about the thread being so painful and thanks for giving us the close up view.

quote:

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I want to get this straight now: are you saying that the U.S. reaction to NK is a product of Cold War paranoia?

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No. I was saying that NK is really one of the last redoubts of that paranoid inward-facing attitude that certain (OK nearly all) socialist/communist states adopted at the height of the Cold War.

[edit: Didn't finihs there:

and it is this attitude which helps make them dangerous (both to themselves and us). They think they can be self-reliant by selling missile (and nuclear?) technology to other states as it is one of their few exports which makes everything unsafe for us and appaling at home.]

[edit 2: I will forget my head today if I don't keep a close eye on it:

quote:

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Emps, I meant no offense, and I hope you don't take any.

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None taken there (you'd have to try a lot harder - an observation not an invitation)].

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

In light of what Bugs posted here, I think it would be a deadly mistake to ignore North Korea and the nukes they have. That a man like Saddam may have had 'ties' to the incident...and to Al-Qaeda...one only needs to interpolate that a little further, to North Korea...we really don't want these nukes in the wrong hands (and IMHO, they are in the wrong hands...), in terrorist hands.

It looks like the world may have gotten a little more crazier...it certainly is much more deadly...

The only problem as i see it is simply this,

Iraq currently is highly unlikely to have a nuke, other weapons of mass distruction probably but nukes nope, saddam has used weapons of mass distruction before. If he had a nuke and it was 100% known then i think to be honest the rush to take him out wouldnt be so damn fast, why, because he would sure as hell use it.

As for north korea, their leaders have proved time and time again when in the worlds eye, they appear to be on the mend as far as their record fpr human civil rights etc. HOWEVER in reality these guys are extremely dangerous. Sadam is predictable, pretty much transparent in his ways, these guys are not compared to him. They are ruthless, they dont give a shit about their own people, so why would they give a shit about any other countries people.

Now to the problem as i said, They are a nuclear power like it or not, they have admitted to a nuclear weapons program, and it is thought that it is likely that they have one warhead possibly two. To attack such a nation which is lead by such leaders, is BLUNTLY PUT A RECIPIE FOR NUCLEAR EXCHANGE.

It would require a pre-emptive strike that has never been seen before, incredibly reliable intelligence, they would need to totally and utterly destroy the warheads and production facilities in one hit...without mistake...

because if they were missed you bet ya ass that NK will use it or find someone else willing to use it on thier behalf.

LIKE IT OR NOT: Nukes have kept a large scale war involving super powers from happening, why? simple they know if things got that bad the other guy could use them, the simple fact is russia and america came close enough several times to the brink, but looked inside and stepped back.. SANITY Reigned..

Take on NK and i am not so sure that they would think so clearly.

Now to WS's post.

Yes they are dangerous, untrustworthy, but more dangerous or evil i am not so sure, Sadam has attacked and invaded other countries NK hasnt, he has shown he is willing to go outside his countries borders using military force. NK hasn't although as suho pointed out it meddles in SK's affairs, but then NK still thinks that SK is one and part of NK, and has stated time and time again it will re-unify the two. It has never as far as i know in recent time threatened any other soveriegn country.

Thats the big difference.

I really feel for the people in south korea, not knowing how their famillies on the other side of the border are, ansd i feel for the people of north korea, simply put if this gets to a shooting match they are the ones that will suffer. But if those nukes get used in retalliation to whoever deciding that NK will not have them and trying to attack them, we are talking about possibly millions of people dying, WHY because we think that they shouldnt have them ?? what they are doing is wrong yes i agree, its inhumane barbaric incomprehensible, but to try and attack them is a guarantee ya will make it a hell of a lot worse, unless ya do it so fast and so comprehensively with a guranteed success rate that the threat is removed 1000%. With nukes there is no margin for error, ya fuck up someone somewhere will pay big time.

sorry about the rant and rave on this, and suho i feel for ya, and respect your decision to sit this one out...

although it never got like the things you are talking about i felt the same way over the kids etc being killed in northern ireland, having served over their i saw it up close and real, and that hurt like hell.

WS: Its always been crazy its just every now and again we suddenly realise it

And at least we aren't on the brink of MAD (for the moment - which is really why we need to address problems like NK but lets not forget Pakistan and India - they aren't quite on the brink for the moment but things could get very nasty very quickly and the estimated death toll keeps me awake at night. The fact that Pakistan may have helped NK get its nuclear industry of the ground must be addressed too).

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Ok Tom...let's look at this abit more...which country should North Korea attack (read - invade)? China? I don't think so...the fact is, North Korea is not surrounded by weak neighbors...and yes, they have supported other communist regimes in the area (read - vietnam, cambodia, etc), so I would say, that if they had had the chance to invade another country, they probably would have (esp. when China was majorly supporting them...).

And considering that South Korea is a different country (though one could argue that it is part of the 'greater whole' of Korea), and the constant border clashes, military actions, etc, I'm pretty sure that we can conclude that if North Korea thought that it could reasonably take South Korea, it wouldn't hesitate to do that.

You see, in Iraqs case, there were no big US military presence in Kuwait...and Kuwait didn't have a big army...and lies right on the border to Iraq. And the warnings that Iraq gave to the world before invading Kuwait were largely ignored...so he did it. And found out that the world really did care, and spanked his bottom for it. Must have been a mind-blower for Saddam...

Actually, the situation in Iraq is remarkably similiar to North Korea...both have had a major war that ended in cease fire (for Iraq, the first Gulf War with Iran, for North Korea, the Korean war), both have leaders that are extremely...tyrannical, and indifferent to the suffering, state, or lives, of their respective subjects (they are even willing to kill their own people...). Both have tried to develope weapons of mass destruction, and have been successful on that account (though I'm not sure if Saddam has Nukes yet). I'm sure there are other comparisons that one could make...

Iraq is seperate in that it invaded Kuwait...yes, that is true. But who should North Korea invade...that is weak, mostly defenseless, and who the world doesn't seem to care about, that is also on the border? Also, Iraq is seperate, in that it has no 'great' ally behind it (used to be the US, but those days are long over...), and it certainly doesn't have a 'major power' as neighbor...like North Korea does...

Just think if Iraq was a neighbor of the US...do you really think they would have then invaded Kuwait? I don't think so...

North Korea is different, in that it has a real Navy...albeit not a modern one....but they do have subs. And they have nukes...

Also, though they have nukes, I don't think they have sufficint delivery systems for one to actually reach the US mainland...at least, not on a missle...however, it is probably the fact that China is a neighbor, that is holding the US (and the world) back on this one...

I'm very surprised, and shocked, that the Chinese have not responded to this...maybe that's why the North Koreans so readily admitted that they have nukes...

I mean, the Chinese now have four lands (not counting their own) in the immediate vicinity that have nukes...three of them are neighboring countries...if I was Chinese, I'd be more than worried...wouldn't you? What would happen to China, if one of their neighbors decided to start a war (with nukes) in the area? The fall-out alone would be devestating...not to mention a 'rogue' missle, or warhead...

Just imagine if the US was 'surrounded' by nuclear powers...we have already witnessed the USs response to nukes in Cuba...it damned near started a nuclear war with Russia. And the countries near China that possess nukes are hardly what one could call 'responsible', now, are they?

I mean, China must be worried about North Korea...they also can't afford to let these nukes be sold to terrorists...I'm sure that Hong Kong would be privately interested in some...and who knows who else in China, etc?

The Asian area is very unstable at the moment because of this (well, not just because of this, but it is a major factor). It would only take one to 'flip out' and there you have it...and I can readily imagine that the North Korean leadership is pretty 'flippy'...

Just look at India and Pakistan...that was a close call, and it is still going on...tensions everywhere. It would just take Japan to return to it's 'imperial' ways (or for the economy to crash, creating a desperate need for raw resources...which is of some concern, when one thinks about the current economical difficulties that Japan is having, at the moment...), and then we have a powder keg, with a bunch of countries attempting to light it...

Already, the tension between China and Hong Kong are running high, and there is the Sprately Islands, a continuing source of friction between China and the Phillippines...

China has already demonstrated that it was more than willing to invade its neighbors...in Tibet.

The region is...sitting on the seeds of the next war....and that one, my friends, will most likely go nuclear.

So I consider, for these and the other reasons that I posted before, North Korea to be far more dangerous than Iraq...

This just in on North Korea.

So, a bargaining chip...

And the 1994 treaty seems to be 'null and void'...which means even less money and economic aid...