Topic awaiting preservation: A Question for the Believers

For those of you who believe in God, or any supreme being at all be it mono or polytheistic, I have a question for you (and you too bugs ).

Do you think that the supreme being that you believe in has any limits of power what-so-ever?

I would just like to see what comes out of this.

edit: oh fuck, i posted this in the PS forum, lmfao, could someone kindly move it to the Philosophy forum before I am humiliated ...

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 12-01-2002).]

Too late.

one black pill for suho for bitter sarcasm.
But then, I'll move it anyway ;-)

so long,

Tyberius Prime

From what I know I guess it's safe to say... I don't know.

S^abaal ud T'a johtizuc^ult'a Fedaro.

Black pill.... yum!

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 12-01-2002).]

Ermz, a quick bump perhaps?

this used to be a post

[This message has been edited by Arthemis (edited 12-02-2002).]

whew, boy...he just don't catch on, eh?

I guess not .

Hmm... okay, I'll bite. The "believers" you refer to are pretty much just going to say "yep, God's power is infinite." Among polytheistic types, you'll find subsidiary gods (devas, whatever) with limited powers, but even then you'll find a supreme god (Krishna, for instance) whose power is limitless.

Those with a more personal and/or homegrown religious outlook might have different opinions, but since they're not part of a solid organized religion, their beliefs are only their own. I, for instance, am always blindly groping towards truth, and at the moment I believe God's power is indeed infinite, but his reasons for action are sufficiently alien that we cannot understand him. That not to say that everything in the world doesn't follow a plan, or that the plan isn't for the best; but if I were to suggest that God has a limitation, it would be that he's unable or unwilling to give us much to go on, which of course is a source of both human suffering and message board threads like this one.

I have been away for a few days because of all sorts of stuff happening that has kept me away from the Asylum. Just lots of ordinary life things, nothing spectacular.

Anyway, I would have to answer your question by saying, "yep, God's power is infinite"

I have often wondered about whether God chooses to not know certain things though. For instance, when it comes to the doctrines of Free Will and Predestination, I lean *heavily* towards Free Will. But this causes a problem because the scriptures clearly say God knows *everything*. So if God knows who's going to Heaven and Hell already, does that mean our choices are predetermined? Perhaps He just chooses to wait and see?

To be perfectly honest with you, I have come to the conclusion the answer is *both*. In other words, we have a paradox on that one and I'm sticking with that until I get a better explanation.

But I believe that He can do *anything* He wants. I think He can even break His own promises if He really wanted to, but I think He has more than proven His intentions to us which would virtually ensure He never would.

. . : slicePuzzle

Bugs, here's a theory I came up with a while back, while writing a short story dealing partly with God... I don't personally believe in it, but it explains quite a few things.

God can create imperfect things. That's no problem, anyone can do that.

God can create perfect things. That's considerably better -- humans can create perfect things, but not many of them. A perfect circle, or a perfect water molecule, are easy to create, but a perfect chair, for instance, would be far beyond our comprehension or ability.

But God, being able to create perfect and imperfect things, must have desired a new challenge. My theory is that God created the human race to see if he could make an imperfect thing which could, by itself, become perfect. This would make him the first AI programmer.

If you accept this theory -- that intelligent life is God's experiment to try to bring perfection from imperfection -- then it is our duty to improve ourselves as much as possible, on every plane, in order to bring God's will to pass. Worshipping God would be polite, but not necessarily a requirement.

This hypothesis provides a fairly good explanation for why Man is left to go his own long-suffering way, without much in the way of active divine guidance.

quote:

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So if God knows who's going to Heaven and Hell already, does that mean our choices are predetermined?

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Well, I think there's a difference between knowing the future and predetermining the future. God chooses not to predetermine certain things; while he knows what choices we'll make, he makes no effort to change them. (Er, he makes an effort to, but in the end will leave the final decision up to us.)

This is getting interesting, I proposed the question (Bugs's one) to my Ethics/World Religion Teacher (who also happens to be my Calc/Geometry Teacher). He said that it's kind of like this: "Eventually, everybody dies. Right? Well, It's kind of like that, everybody knows that there going to die, but they just don't know how."

God knows where we are going, Heaven of Hell, and he nudges us towards Heaven, but it's up to us where we want to go. God isn't a big guy in the sky that throws darts at a dartboard, saying: "counterfeitbacon, well, lets see, the dart landed on heaven, oh, thats good. *Throws another dart* Well, InSiDeR, too bad, your going to hell." Nope, God doesn't do that, we make our own choices.

quote:

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Well, InSiDeR, too bad, your going to hell.

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lmao....

You still didn't answer my question.
psst happy 1000 to you!

Ok then, do I beleive that God has a limit to his power?

Nope...

Well...There you go, theres my answer, pretty much the same as any Christians answer.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 12-03-2002).]

I think God may know everything, but he does not know the future. Or wait, he does know the future, so perhaps he does know who is going to hell or not. And God can hear all thoughts and answer all prayers, he just chooses to answer none. He also is made of everything, or something, and a bit of nothing... I think God is the most confusing thing, creature, being, atom ever. If anyone ever meets God, please tell him to come to the Asylum and explain his/her self better so we can make these discussions shorter, thanks.

I don't really know much about God or what he/she/it is. Here is my take on God, if you feel like reading it....

True Rulers

Gilbert -- interesting idea, but a) there's probably not a world conspiracy of women striving to make mens' lives better, and b) women can be just as shortsighted and bloodthirsty as men. Look at Anne Coulter, for instance. Or another female columnist right after 9/11 who said something like "this is no time to get precious about how many innocents might be killed in an attack on Afghanistan. This is war."

The basis of my own belief in God is that, given the inexpressible beauty of the world around us, the only proper response is gratitude; and since that gratitude needs a halfway-logical object, some conception of God must arise to accept it.

Read it. Not bad, GN. I think God does use that method quite often. I believe He makes his wishes known and leaves the decision to act on our shoulders. He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Unlimited, except in the limits He imposes upon Himself.

Regards

Such as (unless you are referring to not doing bad things)...

Such as...

God forgives sin. The Bible says He removes it from us, chosing to remember it no more. self placed limit

God does not break promises. He could violate His word on the basis that mankind breaks their word all the time... but He doesn't. self placed limit

One could argue that not breaking promises is simply consistent with His nature... to which I would agree. He still has the ability to break it and chooses not to.

I'm sure there's more. I've never really listed something like this out... kinda cool to think about.

Regards

Aha...Sorry about that, I thought you were reffering to him limiting himself in a negative way. I dunno, I can't even remember what I was trying to get at, because I'm not making sense to myself right now...Must sleep ZZzzzZzZZZZZzzzZZZZZZzZZzzZzZzZzZZZZZzz

quote:

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One could argue that not breaking promises is simply consistent with His nature... to which I would agree. He still has the ability to break it and chooses not to.

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He can't break his promises, because hes perfect, and a perfect being wouldn't break there promises. At least, I think.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 12-04-2002).]

*cough* there is no such thing as perfection *cough*

Tricky... the word "perfect" is meaningless without a standard. If you mean that God follows perfectly the laws that he Himself has laid down for humans, then yes, keeping promises is perfect. But God also said "thou shalt not kill," and if you take the Old Testament literally enough, God's got an ocean's worth of dried blood slowly flaking away from his immortal hands.

We are to assume that God justice is perfect, and those whom He killed deserved to die. That means, however, that God need not obey the commandments he has given to humans. That's not hypocritical -- it's entirely proper for God to act according to a different standard than humans. But if God's commandments don't bind God himself, then we're left without a means of judging God's perfection. And thus, we're unable to use God's perfection as a way of predicting his actions.

How could we presume to hold God to any promise, anyway? I already said that my faith is based on gratitude for the life I live this very second, not any understanding of future salvation, not on rainbows or doves. Insofar as I have a covenant with God, it is fulfilled every second I remain alive to enjoy His Creation.

Hey, Insider...

I must assume from your statement that you are atheistic? And, furthermore, that you don't believe in mathematics, or any branch of the physical sciences? There is solid, provable, non-philosophical, non-religious perfection all around us.

The equations to find the circumference of a circle based on its diameter is perfect. It produces the same answer every time, and fulfills its purpose with maximum elegance. You can imagine a less perfect equation, one that doesn't produce the right answer, or one that requires more computations. But can you imagine a more perfect one?

A water molecule is perfect: it's literally the only way that one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms can combine to form a substance with the physical properties we associate with "water." You can easily imagine an imperfect water molecule -- maybe it's just a random floating hydrogen atom. But can you imagine a better water molecule than the ones that exist by the trillions all around you?

Perfection is very real, Insider.

Let me restate that, alright? And yes I am atheist.

There is no such thing as the state of being perfect with the exception of mathmatical concepts and anologies. Other than that, there is always room for perfection so for something to be perfect, it just wouldn't be. In the world of art, perfect is just an opinion. In science, it is just a theory because as stated once before, uhh, in some other thread in this forum, anything is possible just not probable. In algebra you have equations, and those equations have precise and accurate answers. The only exception to algebra is inequalities, and they which require less than, greater than, or equal too, and combinations of the three.

So logically thinking, there is no such thing as the presence or state of perfect. And any religion that says the one god or another is indeed "perfect" is simply unimaginable. But not impossible.

edit: People thinking their God is perfect is just a symbol of reassurance. As long as there is a perfect being, with unlimited powers, there is an answer to all our questions hands down.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 12-04-2002).]

I agree with you that in most fields, perfection isn't likely. In fact, we wouldn't know it if we saw it, being imperfect ourselves. To say that "God is perfect" requires first a belief in God, and then a belief that God is perfect by nature. Neither of these beliefs can be forced upon someone. However, if you flatly reject the possibility of a supernatural entity that created and/or controls the universe, why start this discussion in the first place? What can you possibly learn that would be of use to you?

You're prying open your third eye... but if you're an atheist, what's it going to look at?

edit: By the way, I don't believe in God as a way of answering hard questions. I choose God as an answer to one, and only one, question: "Why all this?" It's a question that is literally unanswerable, and thus, one crackpot theory -- such as "God made it" -- is as reasonable as another -- such as "it came from nowhere."

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 12-04-2002).]

*cough* there is no such thing as an atheist *cough*

I have a theory, which I don't really believe, that we are all super-powerful creatures who were created through evolution and we have third-eye's and all this awesome spiritual power, but their is no God the creator, their is a God the ruler and rule maker, but he was elected. No one knows who created everything, and perhaps no one did.

Of couse, I do not really believe this, but I like to wonder.

Well...an interesting question...hmmm. Assuming god exists...and that it is along the lines of the bible...then no, it doesn't have unlimited...power. Because it has placed limits upon itself. In doing so, it's power is no longer unlimited (by definition).

As to what Bugs posted...this is more intriguing, to me, actually. The future...I would think that god would see all possible futures, but wouldn't choose any one in particular...this makes it both omniscent and allows for free will. Because spontaneously, there are infinite possible futures, but at the present moment, only one 'solidifies' (through choice, i.e. free will), god would know all possible futures at once, but chooses not to cause one to become this one...and therefore, allowing free will to exist.

I guess that would sort of lead to the next question...if god knows all, then one would think that satan would as well. And since god knows he will win (or could win...), why did satan think he could rebel? I mean, doesn't make much sense, does it? Who fights a hopeless battle? Maybe there was (or is) a real chance of satan winning...it's the only thing that makes sense...so, in that sense, god must be limited, as well...

There are two explanations that would preserve God's omnipotence -- either Satan was overcome by incredible hubris, or he believed that a show of fighting spirit would convince God to relent and give Satan what he "deserved," or both. After all, Satan fought against God because he was jealous of mankind's place of honor. As a (previously, at least) loyal servant with amazing powers, wouldn't you feel there was some mistake if you were given less honor and respect than such puny and worthless beings?

edit: I just happened to wonder why God allowed the angels to fight among themselves, instead of simply casting out the rebellious angels immediately. One explanation could be that God wanted Satan to be defeated on his own terms, so that he would consider his loss justified. It's easy to say "well, God just did some God stuff, and it totally wasn't fair," but it's hard to say "well, my big lightning-throwing flaming-sword-wielding angels were beaten by his big lightning-throwing flaming-sword-wielding angels, and, um, it totally wasn't fair."

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 12-09-2002).]

WS, you said, "if god knows all, then one would think that satan would as well." I'm curious to know why you think that follows. God created Satan and I don't see any reason to conclude that Satan has any capabilities even close to omniscience.

I agree with you Bug

Also, a simple thing I live by is...I live by faith. Faith in God and His word.

I agree with you PT except we're speaking of Omnisciense not Omnipotence. God can be all powerful... just not necessarily all knowing. One doesn't suppose the other.

As far as "knowing the future" You can only know the possible future at that given moment. God may be the only being with enough understanding to be able to process all of the possibilties that can stem from one moment in time. The next moment the future would be different. I don't think God has anything to do with choosing one future over another. he envisioned an end result at our creation. Gave us "rules" to follow that should get us there. Free will accounts for everything. If we don't choose to do/go/be what God would like us to do/go/be the future shifts further and further away from what he envisioned at our creation. Fate/destiny only exist as a reference to our current trends.

"If you don't change your ways you're going to hell." Sort of a thing.

Well, If I change my ways I change the possible futures that could happen as does everyone else when they make choices. Perhaps that's what the key points are for armegeddon. When we begin to fulfill God's intent for creating us. Those seven conditions he set out to for us to figure out and accomplish. Who knows?

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Well Bugs, my reasoning goes along the lines of this : Why did satan rebel? Since the war of the heavens took place before the creation of Man (I think we discussed this before), it couldn't be jealousy of Man that moved him. That aside, just why, then, did satan do it? I mean, rebel against a supreme being? If that is so, then there would absolutely be no chance of winning...so who would do such a thing? Satan must have known this...or maybe he knows what we do not...that it is possible. Now that makes more sense, especially when one considers that god has limited itself.

Clearly, if god was all-powerful, then it could of just caused satan to un-exist. Why let such a mistake remain? Truly, a creator, that creates then this evil, and then creates Mankind, and sets this helpless being out, to satan's whims, what kind of creator is that? 'Oh, here you go, some rules to follow, that'll keep you safe.' Why, thank you ever so much! Gee, could you perhaps just remove the evil source? That would be ever so nice...and we could get back to deciding if we really believe in you, or not...

I mean, what does free will have to do with evil, anyway? Hmmm? Even without evil, we would still have free will! Hasn't that occurred to anyone? What makes anyone so certain, that we need evil in order not to believe in god? The definition of free will is not based on evil. We know this, because even the bible confirms it. Adam and Eve had free will, before satan tempted them. So even without evil, we could still decide not to believe in, or even follow, god.

Another question...why does god then need angels? If this being is all-powerful, then what is the sense in having angels? And clearly, angels also have free will, otherwise they couldn't have rebelled against god...so what is the point of all this 'free will' stuff? And god knows, that even beings that know there is 'heaven', and that it exists, can rebel against it...so what is the point? To see if beings, that have no evidence of god (i.e. certain knowledge that it exists), will believe? Well, by now it knows...some will, and some won't...so what is the point in continuing the charade? And if god knows that satan cannot win, then what is the point in continuing?

No, god cannot be all-powerfull...otherwise, all these outcomes would already be known, and wouldn't be necessary...and therefore, we wouldn't exist...if one believes in god, that is...

If God were all-powerful, he/she/it would have known how screwed up we turned out in the end. You'd think that he/she/it would be able to do something about it.

Bah, easy answer to that one: we're not done yet! If we're lucky, our current situation will give way to a better world. And isn't this world already better than that of, say, the Dark Ages? (Pardon my eurocentrism, by the way -- many civilizations were thriving during the European medieval period.)