Topic awaiting preservation: Is there really some kind of spirtual force? (Page 1 of 2)

well what I am trying to say is you know those chinese monks well see what they do...they meditate simple huh....but where do they get from those abilities like braking the damn 10 briks with heads and hands when they are damn so skinny.....and they dont even get a scrach on the fist or forehead...no Shwarzenneger woul;d ever be able to do that even if he is so damn strong to lift 400 lbs......he wont brake a damn single brick with a fist.....well I also saw a documental movie where the dude leaned on spear on his neck with a bunch of briks on his back, while another monk was pounding him with a bamboo....and the spear...well it broke.....another story, a monk took a huge blade he put it over his stomach, he even let the viewers to tought it...while another dude was pounding the blade till the stick broke.......as you hear not a damn scratch.......so the question is what kind of spirtual energy or what ever they posses?.....they are not christians....they dont really believe in god I guess or even if they do then its not a christian god huh.........so whatafuk where do they get this shit???

Well it depends on the philosophy behind it but most of it is supposed to be the energy that binds us all... Akasha, Chi if you like. Through meditation and discipline they have learned to harness that energy and... use doesn't seem like the right word but... use it through their own bodies to achieve the things you have seen. Spiritual or not they have abilities that are astounding.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

I'm not willing to say that ki is spiritual in the sense that it's supernatural. However, either the human body is capable of far more than we suspect, or these people have tapped into a natural force that does not rely entirely on the condition of the body itself. I've seen a master of iaido snap his sword to within a centimeter of his assistant's neck and leave a bruise. Not a cut -- not a welt -- a bruise. Invisible aura of energy? Possibly.

Then again, it's possible to explain anything as perfect training, a trick, or gullible reporting.

edit: Oh, as for breaking the bricks, that doesn't require ki, it just requires perfect technique and great courage. During my taekwondo studies, I've broken boards two or three at a time with pretty much every body part -- feet, bladehand, knuckles, elbows, even my forehead. Once you've mastered the basic principles of what we call "break technique," tougher substances are just a matter of skill and determination. I've seen people break through ten centimeters of glass, fire-hardened bricks, everything. (And I've seen people who couldn't have imagined breaking even an inch-thick board perform their first break and say "Wow, that was a lot easier than I expected.") Masuyama breaking a stack of fifty tile shingles is astonishing, but it's a logical progression of a teachable skill.

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 12-09-2002).]

well i don't believe in them!

YOU THINK YOU'RE SMART, WELL THINK AGAIN!

hey perfect thunder could u do flips on your forehead?

Well seeing my DSL is still running and I have a week before take off I fugure that I would give a few words here.

This is one thing that I am very interested in. Chi, Qi or Ki....However you want to say it...it all sounds the same. Everyone and everything has qi...the heaven, the earth and all the humans, plants etc. It's a natural energy and I havent found anything that can describe it....so it is mysterious in a lot of ways. You are born from qi of your parents and it makes you grow...not everyones qi is the same. I have seen videos of little kids supporting 600lbs of stone on their chest...but it is something that you can develop through lots of hard practice and time. It is a regulation of the body, breath and mind. First comes the regulation of the body with learning how to relax the body in every way so you are relaxed no matter what so the qi can flow smoothly....then the regulation of the breathing with learning how to breath naturally through your stomach/diaphram ( I can't spell) and then come the regulation of the mind with meditation and brining them all together and the spirit will become lifted and energized and the chi can flow freely and effortlessly. So much to say.....but I can't type anymore. There is lots of info on qi and qigong if you look around. Lots of good books too if you want to read more about it.

It is amazing to see it in action...I have seen lots of videos demonstrating the power of qi. It is great for health and for combat as well...the health benefits far outweigh the spectacular feats of strength but...I have to admit it is always amazing to see someone breaking river rocks with their hands and putting a spear to their throat and pressing their body into it. Well just look around on the net if you want more info...like here... http://www.china-guide.com/qigong.html or here http://qi-journal.com/index.asp

Peace

[This message has been edited by Indus (edited 12-10-2002).]

I think there is a great difference in the perception of ki in the East and in the West. In the West, it is an imported idea and thus "mysterious." In the East, though (like, for example, Korea), it is just a natural part of life. I am a Christian, and I think nothing of "using ki" to accomplish a task. It does not conflict with my beliefs in anyway.

On the other hand, if you are a Christian, then you should understand that there are other powers in the world besides God. Did you not read of Aaron and Moses in Pharaoh's court. Did not Pharaoh's magicians also perform magic, just like Aaron and Moses? Granted, in those stories the power of God overcame the power of the magicians, but their power was never denied.

That being said, having trained in the martial arts myself, I would tend to agree with PT: accomplishing many of the tasks you refer to is possible if you have complete control of your body and mind. The part I disagree with is the statement that ki is not necessary to accomplish these tasks. Of course it is necessary. I think the misunderstanding comes from a misunderstanding of ki itself. I will not attempt a full explanation here (I'm not even sure if I'm capable of a full explanation), but I will say this. The character for ki has many definitions, and they include: power/spirit (signified by the same word in Korean, giun), air, breath, weather, mind/heart/soul (maeum in Korean), nature/disposition, "the physical 'origin' from which all things in the universe are formed" (rough translation, sorry), odor/aroma, to smell, taste/flavor, the seasons. At the very least, this should show that ki is not considered to be something supernatural, but something quite natural.

At any rate, in answer to your original question, Ruski, I think my second paragraph should suffice. I could give you numerous other examples from the Bible where powers other than those originating with God are recognized, but I trust they will come to you if you think about it.

[Edit: grammar, clarification, etc.]

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 12-10-2002).]

Ah, Suho, you are entirely correct. Allow me to clarify -- I meant that many feats of strength or skill don't require an intentional manipulation of inner power through the techniques of (kikou

Yes there is.

It's in my pants.

PT: Ah, OK, I get it now. Yes, I would agree with that statement.

DL: Is that a spiritual force in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

Hmmm...well, those Monks may not seem to be in good shape (because they seem small, don't have bulging muscles, etc)...but they are in incredible condition...they train more than eight hours aday, and rigorously! Most western martial artists cannot hold the regime that they do...so they are in supreme physical condition. Added to that, is the mental training that they have...so it shouldn't really be all that surprising, some of the things that they can do...

As for spiritual forces...well, I believe in them...and so do my people. Western science has documented many cases of 'superhuman' strength, and feats...most are called 'adrenaline reactions'...cases, where people under extreme stress have exihbited superhuman strength, like lifting cars, etc. I myself have witnessed such an event - I've seen a man rip a car door off, and throw it several meters...however, I'm not entirely sure if this is due to just a 'reaction' within the human body...it may be, that this 'Chi' is a harnessable form of energy, and with enough training and discipline, one can 'tap into it', so to speak. Clearly, very highly trained martial artists can cause damage (or affect objects) without actually touching something...evidence, that energy is being transferred, without physical contact. How this is done, is not yet explainable (scientifically, that is). Reports of levitation, for example...though none have been clearly documented. I have also seen a martial artist cleave actual stones (not bricks, or cement...real stone, granite) in half...and that in slow motion video. How he did it, is a mystery.

Most of the really advanced martial artists do not give their secrets free...nor do they go willingly on camera, or even like to demonstrate their abilities. This is due, in part, to the fact that as one continues down the path in the mental disciplines, the learning does tend to install a condition of humbleness....at least, that is my opinon.

The only person I know of, who has demonstrated a little of such abilities, is Frank Dukes, an American Martial Artist, and 2 time winner of the Kumite (the only westerner to ever win, and that twice, defending his title). He has a Ninja school on the west coast now. He demonstrated how to use a plain deck of playing cards as weapons, throwing them with such force, that he could imbed them in metal. Clearly, he is able to accelerate the cards to tremendous speeds (though over a relatively small distance, of 10 feet). How he does it, is not known. He stopped doing such demonstrations, however.

Is it spiritual energy? Or is it just 'normal' abilities of the human body, that a well-trained person can learn to use? Well, that's hard to say. What one can say is, that people have demonstrated that such things are possible. The question, then, is how. And at this point, without reliable scientific evidence, it is not possible to say how. It remains a mystery.

So biblicly it says god created human in his own immage...so that means we do have some "whatever" force or energy inside of us that we still dont know about or we never use it....Suho dont be silly ki is not a magic or anything its just something from within we still dont know....or am I wrong

Well...what is magic? Clearly, mysterious energy manipulation that has not been explained, is...well, what would you call it? Magic is as good a word as any other...call it unexplained phenomena, if you like...

Anyone can break a stack of paving bricks or boards if they take the time and trouble to learn how. Qi/Chi/Ki is simply the name some people have given to the life force that all humans have. Other people call it by other names, I'm sure... My skinny little 11 year old niece can break 2 1-inch boards stacked on top of each other with one punch... I couldn't, but only because I haven't learned how...
I don't believe it has anything to do with your spirituality... What you can or cannot do is limited only by your perception of your abilities, and the development thereof.

Bodhi - Cell 617

Like I said, breaking things isn't that hard (at least in comparison to projecting energy through thin air, or stopping edged weapons with your skin). There are feats, however, that would appear to be at least slightly outside what we might reasonably expect the human body to be capable of, no matter how much training one underwent.

Then again, if you're saying "how do we really know what the human body is capable of at all?" then I'd concede the point.

Personally, I wish there were some scientific studies of this stuff, made by impartial observers. There's plenty of stuff about ki out there, but it's mostly by martial artists or acupuncturists or whatever -- people who are essentially preaching to the choir.

I saw this really old man on the tv. He looked like a walking stick and spoke english with an eastern accent saying something like "Chi is an engergy field which is concentrated in the stumach area. Without chi I can't throw a man to the ground but with chi i become much stronger"
And now to the question:
Can I with chi cut those dam school potatoes in two halves or do i have gnawn on them asusal?

In fact gnawing on things is an important survival behavior. It wears your teeth down to a safe length, whereas if you didn't do enough gnawing, they'd grow all the way up through your skull. That's assuming you're a rat.

If you're a human, try a jackhammer. Science is capable of feats far beyond mere ki!

I think magic is trickery. The word you are looking for is magick.

Maybe.

Anyway, I like to think of Chi as structure. Imagine seeing between all the atoms in existence just for one split second. You would see the black void that holds everything together. I call this blackness, the nothingness that is between the spaces of our atoms, structure. I don't know why I call it this, but I just like to. Anyway, this structure is where Chi is located. Between the atoms. It is the energy that holds everything together.

To read some of my ramblings about this, feel free to go here.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-10-2002).]

quote:

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Suho dont be silly ki is not a magic or anything its just something from within we still dont know....or am I wrong

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Um, OK, I'm going to go out of character for a moment here because you just happened to catch me in a really pissy mood...

MORON. Go back and read my posts, and then tell me where I said ki is magic. Man, sometimes I really wonder if that's a head attached to your shoulders or a block of wood. You obviously did not understand a word I said.

[Edit: On a positive note, I appreciate the fact that you actually spelled my name right this time.]

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 12-11-2002).]

I was at a carnival one time and this one magician pulled Buddha's Illumination of the Entire Earth out of his hat... but then this one other magician tapped his magic wand on a deck of cards, and out popped Moving Shapes and Shifting Shadows. I personally think it's all done with mirrors.

I'm with DL on this one....I was thinking of flatulence....hehehehe...

OK, I'm feeling a little better now. Sorry, Ruski, you just caught me at the wrong moment with that comment of yours. I would change my post above, but I don't believe in doing that, so I'll just say sorry here.

I still think you're a bit of a flake, of course.

Don't worry Suho, I've gone off at people on bad days before.

Sorry Sorry....*kneels to master shuho*
Ehhhmm...look shuho....I said it becouse, I understood that you started to compare ki or chi or whatever to pharaohs magicians, and well as I metioned I dont believe that ki is a magic, but something within we havent found out yet......and hey guys I didnt just mentioned braking stuff, but you know...how they train their skin to as "steel" or something like that....
and shuho I do read bible myself...I am christian after all, and of course the power of god is greater than anything else...
I like your comment on:

". At the very least, this should show that ki is not considered to be something supernatural, but something quite natural."


[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 12-11-2002).]

Well GN... I dislike the... bastardization of spelling that goes into magick vs. magic. Spelling it different doesn't change it any. You don't say it any differently. It is what you mean it to be. I just find it irritating while, at the same time, understanding the want to seperate the two.

Ruski - suho.... Suho.. SUHO!!!!!! not Shuho. Okay? Besides that... It seems like you've made up your mind as to what some of this means to you or decided what it is you think is going on... Why don't you offer your opinion on the subject and we can talk about it from that point of view. I think we can all agree that we don't understand HOW they do the things they do. Your question is...

quote:

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...what kind of spirtual energy or what ever they posses?.....they are not christians....they dont really believe in god I guess or even if they do then its not a christian god huh.........

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Well... Do you think this has to be a spiritual ability or not... and do you think people can be spiritual without being christian? Do you believe there are other gods where they might be getting these abilities from? I think where this stuff is basically stemming from is that all ... powers, for lack of a better word, that aren't derived from God are considered bad or evil and yet these monks are not. It seems that a choice needs to be made. Can there be things, unexplainable and wonderous things, that aren't derived from God and yet aren't evil?

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Draconis - I did not make up that magick thing, it has been in use for hundreds of years.

Chaos Magick and what-not.

I'm going to assume that it was the mystical movements of the late 19th century -- the Rosicrucians, Crowleyites, and so forth -- that chose the more "arcane-sounding" term Magick, in hopes of lending a more sparkly and fey tone to their practices. This term has been picked up by recent fantasy (Mercedes Lackey and her immediate forbears/disciples, for instance) and fantasy derivatives (like the entire White Wolf Word of Darkness setting), to the point where now, the usage of the two spellings is somewhat congealed. That makes the spelling "magick" as distinct from "magic" maybe a hundred years old. Anything before that, I'm going to attribute to the fact that people spelled a lot of things differently back then.

Anyway, you can't convince me that saying "magick" is anything other than faintly pretentious.

edit: Realized several arguments were quite beside the point, removed them.

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 12-11-2002).]

I dunno. It isn't whter it's real or not. It's just as PT said, its vaguely pretentious. Rather than being special because it IS special they'de rather make it LOOK special because its spelled funny. I'm a bit jaded as to this whole area anyway seeing as I deal with people wanting to be witches and cast spells and everything else without any care for the religion that witchcraft is part of (usually). The spells and all that are secondary to the religion, in my belief anyway. They're just fluff attracted by the taboo-ness of it. Its irritating.

My comment was by no means meant to slam you or anything I just have a history relating to that particular spelling of the word. You just happened to be on the receiving end of my ages long ire.. my apologies.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Yup, I'm pretty sure that the alternate spelling began about the time PT mentioned... but I'd have to do some research to be sure.

Ruski: OK, I can see where you may have been confused. There were actually two entirely different points in my first post, and the order of presentation may not have been the best (I kind of went back and forth). Anyway, to clarify, my points were:

1) Ki is not magical, although it may be perceived as 'mysterious' in the West.

2) There are other types of power in the world that do not come from God.

As for your spelling of my name, I actually find it quite amusing. It gives me the impression that you have drunk an entire bottle of vodka before each post...

"Well Mashter Shuho... *hic*"

(But yeah, there is only one 'h'--I guess that one correct spelling was a typo...)

no no i was just in hurry thats all...master shuho...opps I mean master suho...*hic*

Shuho: one who trades sexual favors for footwear.

You're killing me, PT!

ROTFLMAOSBIH!!!!!

Go ahead and figure it out...

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

rolling on the floor laughing my ass off so bad it hurts.

Uh, yea.. well, with anything that comes naturally to some people, there will always be a percentage of the mass population who think something is cool and then they will try and make it work by casting spells or what-not.

I think there are two kinds of people involved in this magick/magic stuff. One kind who notices weird things in their lives that happen, and then do research and find out. Then their are those who go to a book store and read a book, and then think that they are noticing weird things in their lives.

But anyone, back to the subject.
Yea. Spiritual power exists and it is not necessary to believe in a Supreme Creator to have access to that power. It is part of us, the same as our eyes.

quote:

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Spiritual power exists and it is not necessary to believe in a Supreme Creator to have access to that power. It is part of us, the same as our eyes.

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thats exactly what I wanted to find out Gilbert , please may I hear more opinions.




[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 12-13-2002).]

What I'm curious about is: why the eyes? Why not the heart? Or the liver, for that matter? I just thought it was interesting that you chose the eyes... Then again, the fact that I find that interesting probably says a lot about my mental state right now.

very interesting master suho

I was curious about that too, Suho. Maybe GN has a thing for eyes?

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Well, besides my eyes fetish, I mainly choose eyes instead of heart or liver because my contacts were bothering me.

And as far as us all having our own internal power which has nothing to do with a creator (thought a creator perhaps created us), you could imagine that we all can control the electro-magnetic energy that surrounds our body. We can control it once we learn how to, and use it to shield us, protect us from danger, or whatever. Keep in mind this is not easy.

Of course, you do not necessarily have to believe in the creator who created us to use this energy. It is like turning on a light switch without knowing that inside the wall their is a wire that connects the switch to the light. All some people know is that when you turn that switch, the light comes on. They think it is 'magic.' But I still think, that even if you say the energy does not come from God, it still does. It's just that you do not have to believe in a God to use it. It may help though, I'm not sure yet.

Hum. Maybe you would like this link. This is pretty interesting stuff...
Internal Sun



[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-13-2002).]