Topic awaiting preservation: What do you think..... (Page 2 of 3)

Don't want to get into the thick of this one, but did want to offer one thought (or rather, second that thought) - I believe very strongly that Hitler knew every moment that what he was doing was evil.

I believe he did what he did for no other reason than to make for the unexplainably vast feelings of inadequacy and rejection he had.

He knew every moment that he was wrong to do it, and he strove to convince himself that it wasn't so...and the more he realized he was in fact wrong, the harder he strove to prove otherwise.

So if there is a hell, any which way you look at it, Hitler is burning in it.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-07-2003).]

heh - there may be many heavens, but there's only one hell - and those people are going to it.

sorry jamie, not a poke at you.

but i do ask - although you have provided some good reasons as to why hitler should go to hell - who are you to make that call?

your claim is only supported if the one that decides who goes to hell and heaven makes their decision on a basis of personal behaviour.

I agree that pluralism offers an "easy way out", and the only thing I can say to that is the other side of the coin isn't much better either. If we take the two extremes of singularism and pluralism, we'll find that the current state of affairs falls in the middle, with each denomination preaching their own views of the truth.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life; none shall come unto the Father but by me."

I have long struggled with this, since it leaves out so many people that I respect and admire. And in researching other religions, common themes begin to spring up.
- the notion of an all powerful being, a Creator of all things
- rules/commandments/ways of living your life in order to be with the Creator in His house
- punishments for not obeying the things set forth above

It leads me to wonder whether we are all arguing about the same thing. Does Allah = Yahweh = God? If we follow the Christian message, then God came to earth in the midst of one of the lowest people of the time, the Israelites, who faced persecution at every turn. Would God really choose this one corner of the Earth to reveal Himself?

Well, according to the Bible it was becuase the Jews are the chosen people of God. But, of course, that's a bit of circular reasoning.

Perhaps, God revealed himself to all peoples in different ways. Maybe all of our paths converge somewhere along the line.

And maybe, every path but one is a dead end.

At the end of it all, I am left with more questions than answers.

Yet, each day you get one step closer.

Or maybe, because they are all human concepts, that is the reason that they have these similarities. A 'global' conciousness, so to speak...one finds similiar cases, with other concepts...Temples, for example...pyramids...drawings...tools...etc.

reitsma

quote:

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jesus claims to be the way to heaven. Therefore, if his way is true, then all others are false.

---

I think this is being a bit overly harsh. That's like saying both the right and left paths up ahead lead to the same house, but the left path is different from the right, so it is false.

Sorry sort of busy at work right now, will get back to this later....

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

outcydr...What are you laughin at? *chuckle*

You are almost there...look at what you wrote and think again..what do ALL religious beliefs have in common ???

What do they all have...muslem, jewish, christian, wiccan, buddist...name one..what do they all have in common. Something everone is missing. It's got to do with that "born again" thing too.

YOU said:

~born with water
~born of blood
~born by the Spirit
~born from above

....

Water..earthly
blood..that's earthly too...christ said he was earthly..he was man
Spirit......spiritly..neither of heaven nor earth...the thing that strings all of god's chruch his people...together.
Born from above...well..above would be heavenly or godly..godess...higher power..etc etc..right?

What three things do you have there ...

What do all beliefs have...?

What's that called?

What did christ say about that?


BTW..."church" is not a building...it's not a religion..nor a doctrine..nor a bunch of writing in a book...it's us..ALL OF US..it's people.

Ettie's bible lessons 101..take yer seats..muahahahahahahahaha...

Reitsma - for the purposes of that statement, I'm assuming that at least some of religious beliefs flying around in here are true. Doesn't matter which ones...he'd be going to hell under Gilbert's concept, and he'd being going to hell under the beliefs of standard christianity...

Under my personal beliefs, he's doing nothing other than decomposing in a hole in the ground...so...that call isn't even there to make as far as I'm concerned.

Didn't say anything about there being many heavens or there being one hell...just saying, if there is a hell, according to stated beliefs in this thread, Hitler would be there.

=)

My faith assures me that there is no heaven, no hell, and no "god".



{edit - typos...}

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-07-2003).]

Oh i'm sorry..bible study is off...*L*..i'm feeling quite unchristian right now. Been interesting...you all might try reading the bible from front to back sometime *L*

I have, ettie. Front, back, sideways, and every piece of reference material from the period I could get my hands on.

I think people should actually read the bible as a book instead of the list of quotes most people seem to think it is.

Standard Christianity... That's funny, DL-44.

My viewpoints on this subject are basically this:

If we are all Gods creations... why wouldn't he appear in every way possible to make sure that most of us believe in him in one way or another? I see "God" as the energy of creation with many different faces. Faces that we have provided for ourselves so we have something to hold on to and visualize in our human need. Just because the face of the God of another religion doesn't match yours doesn't mean it isn't the same God. I find it foolish to try and decide between the myriad religions in the world today. If you get down to the root of the many faiths, the "nitty gritty" as it were, all religions are the same. "Be good to each other and you will be rewarded." I'm sure there are a few odd ones out there, but for the most part, that's what they all say. If you strip the dogma away I don't think anyone has the right to say "I'm right and you're wrong". If you believe in the theology instead of the religion things might look a little brighter.

The arguement of Jesus being the ONLY way... Maybe he's the only way for the christian faiths. Maybe that's what they need to believe in order to believe in God. Maybe the many deities that are believed in around the world are just one God, and this is His way of reaching the multitude of peoples on the earth, the diversities of which make belief in a single following nearly impossible.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Ok, first of all Ruski said the bible can't be perfect because it was written by men, true it may have been written by men, but it was inspired by God. (I'm sure you know this, but i'll explain) 1st Peter staes that the phrophet would go and phrophesy, when they were done, they would go and marvle at what they prophesied. This means they basically went into a trance and started writing and then came out and marvled at what they wrote. It was not of a human brain that the Bible was written.

Question to gilbert, in your theory, if someone violates what they thingk is wrong, they will go to hell, right? In christianity, even though one is born again, he still sins, but is forgiven of his sins. In your theory, can one be forgiven of their violations of their beliefs so as not to be sent to hell?
For now, in your theory, lets just call the "violation" a sin, like in christianity. As I said before, people are always sinning, every day. In your theory, wouldn't this make someone hellbound as soon as they commit a sin? I'm assuming in your theory there are different severities of sins, like stepping on an ant is prolly less severe than killing someone, would a person who stepped on an ant get the same punishment in hell as someone who killed a man?
Also, people believe in many different Gods, If five people with different Gods all live perfect lives and all go to heaven, would they go to the same God?


So far I'm finding heaps of stuff wrong with your theory. Christ is the only way.

Do unto others before they do unto you

Lots of good points being brought up here. I for one like to discuss religon. I find if quite facinating.

I think that there is one place that everyone is trying to get to in the end of their life. Should it be Heaven, Nirvana, or whatever have you. The thing is, that it could be looked at as "the same ending point". We just take different paths to get there.

Just as example. I want to go to the book store. I may go one route, and someone else may go another. We still end up at the same place, right? I don't think that it should really matter which "path" we choose to get there.

One binding thing that all relegions have in common, is that we should be good in body and mind as well as care for the people and around us. As long as someone is in good nature, I think that the after life will be just what they sought after.

The one thing that I never agreed with Christianity about, is that you must go through Jesus, to get to heaven. Like was said above, I have a mind to use at my best.

Later,

C:\


~Binary is best~

Actually, Kevin, I'll have to disagree on your first point. Although the bible was inspired by God, it was definitely written by men.

Just take the gospels, for example. If you've ever seen a synopsis of the four gospels(five if you count Thomas), you'll notice that there are parallels and there are differences in their accounts.

For example, Mark begins with the story of John the Baptist, while Luke and Matthew don't start writing about that until the 3rd chapter*.

Also, all three write of John the Baptist's comments regarding Jesus. The quotes are almost exactly the same: "but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." However, Mark leaves out the last two words.

A very minor discrepancy, but notable nonetheless. These instances can be found throughout these gospels.

Therefore, we can only conclude that they shared a vision of God and wrote down their testimony, but they also wrote it through the eyes of men, and with the memories of men, and with all the advantages and disadvantages of mankind. God didn't just stick a funnel in their ear and inject the words directly onto the page. Rather, He used them to preach His message. And using them as human typewriters would have really put a dent in God's message of free will.


*Synopsis passages taken from "The Holy Bible: Revised Standard Version. Copyright 1946, 1952, 1973 by the National Council of Churches of Christ. All rights reserved."
Also, the synopsis is beautifully laid out in http://www.utoronto.ca/religion/synopsis/meta-syn.htm, and this page contains one of the best uses of frames I have seen.

Well..I don't believe in heaven, or hell, either...nor god. I do believe there is something after death, however...and something before birth. I do believe, that life is a learning experience...and that that is what it is for...to learn, to grow, to experience. Those who don't, are missing the point, IMHO.

So, what happens after death? I'm not sure...I think, one goes to another level of conciousness...and depending on what one has learned, before, decides the next level...very similar to Karma...yin and yang. However, I believe this is a natural process. Therefore, no god.

Look at it this way:
It is not upto a dog to understand it's master, it's impossible for it to understand human concepts and ideas as it is for us to understand Gods.

As for the bible, I just like the Apocalypse

Religion is suppose to bring pple together apparently, all it does is cause war and provides some heated posts around here. Sometimes I just go with what my pple in my family taught me, Never Get Into a Religious or Political Discussion.

"You don't know how paralysing that is, that stare of a blank canvas, which says to the painter: you can't do a thing." - Vincent Van Gogh

Cool, GrythusDraconis just said everything I believe. I have never heard my own thoughts put into words by someone else before.

A good way to get a perspective on God, is to look at someone who is sitting by you, perhaps a co-worker or anyone, and imagine that they are Jesus. Just think, hey I am sitting next to Jesus, reincarnated. And make yourself believe it for a couple of minutes. It is a good feeling.

Interesting question's Kevin....I don't see though how holes in my theory prove that Christ is the only way to God.

Anyway, I imagine if one believed one could be saved from their "violations, they could be saved. It is all in the eye of the beholder. If one does not believe they can be saved, they can not. It is like a dream, what ever you believe to be true is, you create your own heaven or hell.

No, a person who stepped on an ant would not get the same punishment, unless of course someone thought killing ants was the worst sin possible. Like I said, it is all a matter of individual perspective.

And as to the God thing, I am not sure about God. I don't know if five people with different Gods would all go to the same God, though I think so, like GrythusDraconis said, God is probably some form of energy, and if not, I have no idea about God. I definatly thing if their is a God, he has much more patience that that which is portrayed in the Bible. I think the God of the bible is rather evil, and ruthless. I don't think a true God would be anything like this.

[edit-And one more thing, Kevin, just because you find heaps wrong with my theory does not prove it wrong. I can find heaps of information proving that Christianity is wrong, but would that really prove it wrong? Can anything be proved wrong that is only an opinion, or a matter of personal belief?]

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 01-10-2003).]

Personally, I'm just finding the irony of these two statements terribly amusing:

quote:

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Christ is the only way.

Do unto others before they do unto you

---

I've been thinking that since I saw Kevin's tagline. I haven't commented on it until now because I have a good idea what his response is likely to be. It is funny if you take it the right(or wrong, depends on your point of view) way.

That said, this:

quote:

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you must go through Jesus, to get to heaven

---

brings to mind the image of a beefed up Jesus standing before the gates of heaven.

"You want to get into heaven? Then you're going to have to go through me!"

Heh, anyway back to the topic...

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Well, Jesus taught that He was the only way to Heaven. This is why it confuses me sometimes that people who find that teaching repugnant refer to Christ as a great moral teacher.

Bug's, I guess you are refering to this...

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Jesus

I don't think this means that he is the only way to heaven, but more that he is the gateway to God.

For example, if you do not believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven and you live a moral life, Jesus will still let you into heaven. I think perhaps what he means by this is that maybe he is sort of like a gate that you have to pass through. You necessarily don't have to know all of the inner workings of the gate/Jesus, but as long as you have the key to that gate it will open for you.



Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

after all that reading my brain feels like it was mashed. or... something...

back to the original question...

The answer is really quite simple... so simple that many just pass it by...

To be "born again" or to be "saved" is just a way of saying that You Believe that Jesus was the son of God and he died for your sins.

And if you think you will get to heaven with out truly believing in Jesus then your in for a shock.

Its all in the bible, simple and clear. If ya want verses to back up what i just said i will happily find them.

                                   

to be truly born again in the sense given
you must first be convinced that you need to be born again

are you a good person?

to be honest, i am a liar, a thief, adulterer, coveter, idolater, etc...even though other people might consider me a "good person" outwardly, i know within myself how sorry i really am.

to err is human, to forgive is divine

"Its all in the bible, simple and clear."

Well, of course, that's pretty hard to say with certainty...as so few people seem to be able to agree on what was actually meant by much of the bible.

And of course, that assumes that the bible actually contains the word of god, word of jesus, rather than the corrupted interpretations of man...which then leave us to make further interpretations which can't help but be in some way corrupted...and so on... =)

GARRRR I just hit the clear fields button after a long post and I HATE that button.

um...

Lets go to da bible.

How to be saved 101.

Romans 10:9 says it all... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As far as certanty... to me it is quite clear. I always check what I hear people saying agains what is in the Bible.

And seeing the kingdome of God? John 14:6, Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Das sayin that the only way to get to God who is in pear heaven, is through Jesus. Is there some other way to read that?



                                   

Gilbert,

Izzy's got a point. It is virtually impossible to misread the verse you cited. What is possible, and very common, is to explain why what it says it actually not what it says but something else. That is really what you did and is entirely your prerogative, but I wish you would consider the possibility that Jesus really meant those words as stated.

Here are a couple more:

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." --Acts 4:12

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." --1 Timothy 5:1-6

OK if Jesus is the only way to heaven then what happened to all the people before christ?
huh? well.....are they rotting in hell for nothing?.....hmm...how about all the people in asia when even when christ was born...are they also rotting in hell?
what about all the good people that were missguided, but leaded good lifes?
personally it maybe true what Jews say...he is simply another prophet....
another reason why bible doesnt makes sense in some stories..well they just sound too wierd....like some dude was wacking off and another said him to stop or god will kill him....and he spilled his cum on the land and god killed him....dont remember where exactly it was but the word "masturbate" came firs from bible....

also bible mentions alot of wars...and how god helped people to kill people...isnt killing against his law?
ok and why did he chose Jews as his people?
also that wasnt the worth time for Jews....why not during the WW2...well?


IF there is a God, he had spoken through whole world....through Buddha....Jesus...Moses.....and a lot of other prophets....and wise poeple....
thats what I think.....

Izzy and Bugimus, we aren't speaking the same language. If we all agreed that the Bible was accurate and true, you both would be making great arguements. However, many of us are working from the standpoint that it is NOT true.

Let's compromise, and both groups work from a position that the Bible may or may not be accurate. From this standpoint, anyone from either group quoting the Bible needs to also provide corroborating evidence from ANOTHER SOURCE.

This way we'll be starting from the same point and be able to understand one another better.

Yeah, it's just a bit hard to say that everything regarding how you must live your life in order avoid burning in hell for eternity is "plain and simple" based on a book in which some guy says that some other guy said that jesus said you had to go through him.

Of course, there's "faith".

But faith in 'god' and faith in the words of man written about the words of god are two entirely seperate things.

Of course, the question that started this thread kind of implies a belief in the bible, so I'll leave my arguments at that and say good day

Guys, I totally understand that. That's why my post was primarily aimed at Gilbert because he seemed to be asking about specifics in the Bible itself.

We have actually had some pretty good discussions about the veracity of the Bible here before. I sure don't mind getting into it but I thought opening that up in this thread might be too much of a divergence. Actually, I thought that we make a great topic for another formal debate one of these days.

My position is that there is very good reason to believe that what the guy said that Jesus said was said. So if the guy who said He said it was accurate then one has to go from there and make some more decisions.

quote:

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...hard to say that everything regarding how you must live your life in order avoid burning in hell for eternity is "plain and simple"...

---

DL, I was re-reading your post and wondered whether this was based on a misconception. I think Izzy was pointing out that it has nothing to do with a huge list of do's and don'ts but rather a very simple formula of placing one's trust in Christ. *If* it were based on the works, like every other major religion teaches, we would all be hell-bound.

quote:

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I thought opening that up in this thread might be too much of a divergence

---

Yup, I agree. So many of the responses in here so far made me want to open that issue up, but like I said, the original post requires a belief in the bible, so I didn't.

As for your second post there, I was perhaps overgeneralizing a bit...not necesarily responding soley to izzay's post =)

I would like to hear an answer to Ruski. He makes a good point.

Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

Gilbert, before I do that I would like to know whether you care to hear about how I see it as a believer. So many of your opinions seem to be based on things outside of the Biblical teachings that I'm not sure of your priorities. If I answer Ruski's question, it is going to be from what I can learn from passages in the Bible and insights given by Xian scholars for the last 2000 years.

Bugs:
I am certainly interested in your response to Ruski's questions...as a believer.
I'd also be interested to hear what Gilbert thinks is the KEY to the gateway.

Certainly I would like to hear from you Bugs...as always. I await your reply with abaited breath.

It is of great interest to me, also, to know how your Church handles the question of those who do not believe in Christ, through no fault of their own...are they, then, bound for Hell? What about my people before the Europeans came to the Americas, but after Christ lived?

Also, how does the Bible handle this issue?

Ok...another point why I am saying, why bible sounds so meaningless to me is:
First of all if it was inspired by god....many passages are too "human" and "fantasy like"

"good guy-bad guy" "god-devil" "black-white" "right-wrong" "heaven-hell"

and it mostly ends up good guys win....no matter in what situation..........and it simply tells me, that these ideas are so pure human "made"..........very similar to many mythologies.....for exemple take a japanese mythology......."the sun goddes was good, wind god was bad" similar thing goes to Greek myth " Zeus is good guy, Hdes is bad guy" compared to our stuff "God is good Devil is Bad" " Heaven is for good people Hell for Bad"

these ideas are just so human......and if there is god it cant be so simpl, everything divided to opposites it would be so simple and stupid......if life is that way.....why should afterlife be like that?

Personally I think there is no such a thing such as "right" or "the only way"
Think about it......there are like 50 diffrent christian religeons....be it evangelic, protestan, roman catholic, apostolic catholic or whatever you name it.....they simply dislike each other and each religeon thinks they are most right about the way they fallow something........thats bullshit

I am catholic and I go to protestan school.......the bible teacher allways talks shit about catholics saying that we worship saints and virgin marry, that we will go to hell for not worshiping christ and so on...she is simply saying about something she doesnt know.......................


In my point of view its simply goes....why fallow religeon, fallow your heart.................

Study, acknowledge, question.....thats all you should do................Am I sinning for
questioning diffrent people and not being one of the fanatics. Becouse I dont see any proof and perfect sense in one religeon or one point of view?

I dont think so.....

I really didnt mean offence here...just questioning

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-14-2003).]

Actually Ruski, you're perfectly right in what you are saying. While the Bible may have been originally based on fact, the human need for dramatisation has long since stretched it out of reality. Being Darwinistic in my beliefs about the origin of life, I find the Creation story just that. A story. The Bible says that Moses lived for hundreds of years. How can this be, with the medical and sanity facilities available a few thousand years ago? The tale of Noah is half-borrowed from the Babylonian tale "The Epic of Gilgamesh". Can we say it is true.

Then you have to the consider that the Gospels were written 50-100 years after the death of Jesus. The writers, in their need to attract the pagan worshippers to their practiced faith, elaborated on the story of a pacifist who was born in Bethlehem, under the glinting light of a rare astronomical phenomenon that occurs when the Sun, the Moon, Saturn and Jupiter come into alignment. There was no "Holy Star", that was Jupiter. It was not a message from heaven, it was a natural occurrence.

In the end, we have to realise and acknowledge that the Bible, magnificant as it is, is a work of fiction. Whatever truths are in it are long since dramatised, making it almost impossible to sift out fact from fiction.

Until it is known and understood completely, it would be wise not claiming the Bible to be Gospel truth. It is not.

hehe Ram thats exactly what I am talking about.......

Here is another meaningless story......Its about how Noah cursed his son to be a black man or "slave" of his brother , becouse that son saw him drunk naked.....~laughs~

ok well....when I read it, it was pretty funny....but its written somewhere in genesis 9


I think I have asked too much questions... .....I hope sombody will answear them....

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-16-2003).]

ruski, for someone who thinks the bible is meaningless, you sure seem to know a great deal about what it says, albeit on a superficial level. i still would like to hear from bugs on at least some of your questions, otherwise i am tempted to respond myself.

example:
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Here we have the statement "And Ham, the father of Canaan...". The man Canaan still hadn't been born yet, so, what gives with this?
Just exactly what does this phrase, "the nakedness of his father" really mean? Turn to Leviticus 18:8, and then Leviticus 20:11.

Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Very clearly then, to 'uncover his father's nakedness' is a euphemism, or figure of speech. It means to have intercourse with your father's wife, i.e. one's mother.
Many have taught that Ham actually looked upon Noah's own nakedness, and committed sin. It's sad that the KJV translators didn't carry this idiom of 'thy father's nakedness' properly from the Hebrew into English. This act which took place with Ham was incest with his mother.
Some would teach that the black race descended from Ham and would always be slaves or servants because of this event, and also because of the Hebrew meaning of the word 'Ham', which means 'hot' ('cham', Strong's no. 2526). All that is very far from God's Word, and has no basis in fact. God created all peoples, all races, just as He wanted, and He even said "it was very good." (Gen.1:31).
There's no way two of one pureblood race, such as Noah and his family were here, can produce an offspring of another race, regardless of the type of sexual sin, such as incest. That's not how God has set up the flesh order. If you hear your preacher teaching it is possible, and that Ham somehow became the father of the black race, even though Ham was Adamic through Noah, then don't you wonder what else your preacher has misled you in? (And many don't refer to Lev.18 & 20 due to ignorance of God's Law, falsely thinking It being done away with.)

Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

So just who is Shem and Japheth covering up with the garment here; Noah or their mother, Noah's wife? As Lev.20:11 so stated, 'the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness.' So Ham's brothers were covering their mother here.

Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Uh oh..., Noah all of a sudden sobers up and discovers the sin of Ham ('younger' than Shem), having uncovered his father's nakedness (incest between Ham and his mother).

Gen 9:25 And he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

Wait a minute... I thought Ham was in the sin?

This is Noah here cursing Canaan, not God. Here Noah has a son Canaan by an incestuous act of Ham with his wife. How would you feel? I don't think I would be happy about it either.