Topic awaiting preservation: Are we really SO bad? (Page 1 of 2)

I just got this E-mail and wanted to ask a couple of questions.

First off... Is it real? Was this actually written?

And secondly... Are we really viewed THAT badly? I understand that the muslim/Islam nations have reacted according to their programming but... this article hints that other peoples of the world, if not outrightly saying so, believe that we got what we deserved. I can't find any other way to feel but hurt. This... This has to be the worst I've felt about the WTC fall. I think what pains me most about this is that I can see it. I don't want to believe that it's possible for people to think we deserved this... but... but I do. I feel terrible believing this of the people around the world, people I have no right to make judgements against or to formulate opinions about, but I can't shake this feeling that we are seen as "white devils". Worse than that... It makes me doubt my American way of life. Are we really] "White Devils" as people seem to believe? Are we so reprehensible a people that we really truly DO deserve to be... NO! I refuse! I refuse to believe it. I won't believe it. I can't...

*sigh* And so I turn to you. All of you here and ask you to become my mirror. Show me America as it is out there. I can't see it and I can't believe it can be this bad. I trust you here, for some reason... this place... it nurtures me... succors me in my need. And so I end with the aforementioned article...


HERE'S A VIEWPOINT FROM A "BRITISH" PETER JENNING

Tony Parsons is a newsman in Great Britain similar to Peter
Jennings.....

He wrote the following article for the British Daily Mirror.
From the Daily Mirror (of Great Britain, where the resident Islamists held a celebration on Sept 11)
- Tony Parsons

One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting --the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate.

Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country -- too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon?

And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children --not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.

The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11.

Remember, remember.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to
say, I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember -- and realize that America has never retaliated for
9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda terrorists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray?
Pass the Kleenex.

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
their semiautomatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.

That it didn't is a sign of strength.

American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that --
and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -- assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.


I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's
poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.

Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.

And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.

Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people
and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember.
Never forget..

GD: Yes its true:
www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/mirror-parsons.htm
www.snopes.com/rumors/shame.htm

[emp edit2: The original article is here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12188969&method=full&siteid=50143 ]

what amazes me is that it has been so widely circulated:
www.google.com/search?q=%22tony+parsons%22+september+11

he is a former music journalist who has never been rated very highly as a proper journalist as far as I was aware (although I don't know who Peter Jennings is so......).

[edit: You can find his Mirror homepage here with details of his last 3 stories (a demonstartion of his cutting edge journalistic abilities?):
www.mirror.co.uk/columnists/tonyparsons/ ]

On your second question: Yes you are that hated - you should dig around the Daily Mirrors news archives for anti-American articles or have a good research into Islamic news sites. It might get a little hair raising.

I must admit this suprised me:

quote:

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where the resident Islamists held a celebration on Sept 11

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I never heard any news of anyone celebrating - it could have happened I'm sure but..........

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Actually, we're also "black devils", "brown devils", and a skittles bag of other colors.

Here is something that may cheer you up...

quote:

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What is an American?

An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Cuban, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan.

An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.

They may have trouble with the language but that does not change their love of our country.

An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses. An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.
An American is from the most prosperous land in the history of the world. The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each man and woman to the pursuit of happiness.

An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country. As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.

Americans welcome the best, the best products, the best books, the best music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the least.

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America. Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning
of September 11, earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 other countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and every bloodthirsty tyrant in the history of the world.

But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.

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I'm not to sure where this came from....but I am sure you could find out.


Cell 816~teamEarth~Asylum Quotes

Silence - The term "white devil" was taken from a context that I imagine came from movies or my belief that the fanatics arranged against us see us that way. Americans are Americans, I make no distinctions - please don't forget that about me.

"White devil" tends to be used in this context to give a feeling of colonial imperialism - harking back to when we Europeans (esp. use Brits) romped all over the world laying down the law as we say fit and steam rollering local opinions and viewpoints and exploiting the natural resources (including the people).

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I apologize if it was misconstrued, and I assure you I do not think that of you at all.

I was merely making an ironic comment along the same lines as Gilbert's post.

What I find most saddening of all is the increase in animosity to anyone of middle eastern descent in America, even though they may have emigrated many years ago.

Just recently, the local government and the local attorney general made one of the most idiotic moves I've ever seen.

I don't think the world can hate us any more than we hate ourselves.

We are simultaneously hated, admired, resented, loved, told to mind our own business, and expected to solve the world's problems. This can be distracting but I think it's incumbent upon us to focus on what are the "right" things for us to be doing for ourselves and everyone else. We do a great deal of good in this world but we have also made some huge mistakes.

How is that for a balanced view? On it goes...

. . : slicePuzzle

Waves a hand apologetically at silence

I didn't mean to sound pissed or anything and thanx. I've just been... irritable recently.

I have to agree with you in that we seem to become what everybody else thinks we are. The imaginations of other people are too selective methinks. How many other countries, faced with this same situation, would have reacted the same way as we have? I just don't understand where this animosity comes from. Just about all of these countries were as they are today hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the United States even existed. It isn't our fault, hell we showed them what to do with the riches (read oil) they were standing on.

Bugs - You're right, we are an irresponsible teenager as far as countries go. We have made our mistakes and payed for them, usually in blood. We've even learned from some of our mistakes. I'd just like to point out that, under repeated, unrelenting attacks of this nature... what are we going to learn? There is a point at which, in fighting against something, you become that thing you were fighting against. Given no recourse... we WILL end up obliterating the Middle East. We will be forced down a path that we tried, perhaps valiantly, to avoid. I doubt anyone else will see it that way.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 01-03-2003).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Well there is Social Security... technically. I'm paying for my grandparents right now. When I'm old my grandchildren will be paying for me. There's only one problem with this... there are more old people than young people nowadays and that means there isn't enough money. Which means that there won't be any/enough for me when I'm old. So I plan for other things. In any case there are many plans that help with difficult situations, most of which are state instituted not fedrally mandated. In general though the medical situation in a lot of european countries (so i've heard) is much kinder to its citizens than that of America. You also pay more taxes than we do. So it's a balance. We pay less taxes for less government interference... I don't have any figures or sources and am too.... bummed out right now to look them up. this is based on what I've heard and experienced. I could be talking out my ass. I know for a fact that in Minnesota(where I live) if you get medical assistance they put a lien on your mortgage so they get payed back. There needs to be some changes and I just am not the one to know how to make it work right.

quote:

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The "war vs terrorism" is another thing, I could be radical, but I wish America could properly punish the responsibles of that.

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You and me both. And yet... not. If it would achieve something... then by all means.... shoot some people. I just don't think the people that hate us will ever relent. We'll end up being backed into a corner where no one trusts us at the best and hates us at the worst. We'll have very few or no options left to us. As I mentioned before... we'll wipe out whoever it is if given no other option. Look at the United States like a family. One big huge family. Wouldn't you do anything in your means to save your children? I really, really hate using this analogy since it colloquially puts me under the "fatherly" umbrella of Bush but he is effectively the U.S.'s father. I bet he's willing to go to any means to defend the people of this nation. I would be if I were president.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

It's fun to make fun of Bush about being dumb but anyone with an ounce of sense knows that's where it ends. Besides the best leaders in history have made sure they are surrounded by quality advisors, and he's done that *very* well.

topic?

TOPIC!!

Where did you go!?
Come back topic! I didn't mean what I said!

Indeed, well I guess my point is that it is pointless to worry about whether the world hates us or not. What matters is what we *do* for good or ill. I seriously doubt any of the great leaders of history sat around wringing their hands about whether or not they were liked by the masses. They were far too busy doing precisely what got them into the history books.

I couldn't disagree more Bugimus.

The United States' needs to come to the understanding that its actions have an effect on the outside world. We have a long history in meddling in the affairs of other countries to make us more money. We've contributed alot of good in the world, mostly for money. We've contributed a good portion of evil, almost entirely for money. We justify fixing elections in another country because they'll buy our goods. We sometimes forget that the people from that country might not be getting as good of a deal as the United States. George Stephanopoulos describes in his book how promises made along the campaign trail suddenly had new meaning the day after the election. These are things American's don't concern themselves with.

So are we really SO bad? Of course. I'm not being partisan in saying so. Republican or Democrat, US citizens are out for themselves and don't take the time to consider other citizens.

Jestah

I've acknowledged we have not always done good and have made some mistakes in our history.

My point is that we need to decide what is the "right" course of our actions and then do that regardless of opinion.

And let me add that whether we do what I think is right or what you think is right or any other thing, we will still be just as hated. We are not hated because of our actions but because of who we are.

Well...I have to go with Bugs, on this one. Despite things that the US have done...one must keep a few things in mind. First, many things were done in the Cold War...and no, they were not that nice. However, the other side was much, much worse. Then came the drug war. Well...that wasn't all that nice at all. Now we find ourselves in a post-Cold War era...as the only super power. And guess what? There was no world-threatening nuclear war, and no communist invasion...I call that a plus.

Second...many 'hotspots' are either remanants of the Cold War...or even other wars...for example, the Korean War. And it will take time, to get them 'worked out'.

As for the dealings of the US with other countries...well, that's 'business as usual' in the international world...and we are not alone, in using them. In fact, when compared to most other countries, we are much 'cleaner' in our dealings, as others.

To the middle east. Hmmm...well, after the second World War...one needs to keep in mind, that we helped keep those lands free from the Nazis...and many Americans lost their lives, accomplishing that. But as that generation (that remembers this) dies out, the younger generations seem to have forgotten this. Also, the placing of the Israelis was not a US alone implimented thing...so why give the US the lone fault for this? The US is also not responsible for the actions of the Israelis...just because we often support them, does not make us responsible for their actions.

Now, the oil thing...well, the middle east has gotten pretty fat, and powerful on oil. The US is also not responsible for the Governments (or religions) of the various Mid-Eastern countries...many of those that we put into power, are now gone (the Shah comes to mind...). One must also remember, that we also freed Kuwait...I didn't see any other Middle-Eastern lands prepared to do this. It doesn't really matter why we did it...the end result is, that Kuwait is still a soveriegn nation. And just because we have (sometimes tenuous) ties with the Saudi Princes, and Kings, doesn't make us responsible for their actions, either.

In conclusion, there is no legit reason, whatsoever, that justifies the Sept. 11 attack on the US. Just because some would very much like to hijack the Moslem faith, or 'pay back' the US for real (or imagined) wrongs, or because it is much easier to 'de-humanize' an outside entity, and make it the fault with everything that is wrong in the world. Also, one must keep in mind, all the very good things that the US (and it's citizens) have done. Where there is hunger, there are Americans at work, helping. Where there is a need of medical attention, there are Americans at work...and the list goes on. One can simply not put the whole blame on us, for the worlds problems. However, there are those who would like to. No, we are not perfect, that's true. And sometimes, we have Administrations, and policies, that fall far from that mark, too (just like any country). One must keep in mind, that America is the only Super Power, that has never attempted to conquer (and expand) it's present borders. And we always stood in the way, of those who thought differently...such as the Nazis, and the Communists. This time, it is starting to look like radical Muslems, who are attempting to hijack the faith.

The main question is - do they really hate us? I don't think so...to really hate someone, you have to know them. And these people that one hates, has to have done something, to be worthy of hating. Otherwise, it's not hate...it's Bigotry. Unfounded, taught hatred...without a real clue as to why. When there are indoctrination camps, that teach children, and 'believers of the faith', to hate...that cannot be right.

When is the last time, you simply hated someone that you have never met, and don't know?

Here an excerpt from a translated interview:

Interview With Afghan Islamist Leader On Jihad Against U.S.

quote:

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The Clash of Civilizations has Begun and Will Continue

Question: "Do you think a 'clash of civilizations' has begun?"

Hekmatyar: "Yes, the war between the civilizations has indeed begun, and this war will continue forever. I think that those who deny the existence of this war and raise slogans for reconciliation, understanding and dialogue between the civilizations are deceiving the world and themselves. The slogans of reconciliation and cooperation are Western slogans. They are being used to crush the resistance. The Western civilization has launched a fierce war against the other civilizations. The Westerners are calling on others to surrender... They want their civilization to be the dominant one in the world. Otherwise, what does reconciliation mean at a time when the West is launching its war against us? How can understanding be reached when the United States has established military bases in many Islamic countries and occupied the most important strategic points in the world by force? When Bush declared his crusader war, the Italian Prime Minister [Silvio Berlusconi] announced that he defeated communism and will defeat Islam, and the German foreign minister stated that the West will not accept the shari'a authority in Afghanistan. They are trying to impose their way of life on the poor peoples."

Question: "Do you agree with Osama bin Ladin that the current war is a crusader war?"

Hekmatyar: "There is no doubt that this is a crusader war. What is happening in Palestine, Afghanistan, Sudan and the possible war in Iraq are all links in the chain of crusader wars declared by George Bush."

Endnotes:
(1) Arabnews.com, December 26, 2002, http://www.arabnews.com/SArticle.asp?ID=21448&sct=Hekmatyar&

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On can clearly see, that certain points are 'glossed over' such as this

quote:

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...and will defeat Islam

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Nowhere is the West engaging in a war against Islam...or against the entire Moslem world. But this is how this person sees it...as I said, it's becoming more and more, a battle of religous faiths. We also see, that any and all paths of dialog are closed...and are actually viewed, as part of this 'War'. People like this want nothing more than the war itself, for they have closed off all avenues to the contrary. Even if the American Military left all lands tomorrow, it wouldn't end there...notice, that the other things that are included in the 'grievences', are among the lines of this

quote:

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...They want their civilization to be the dominant one in the world.

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Well, that could be interpreted as anything, couldn't it. This person is guilty of the same 'logic'...albeit he thinks that it is justified, because of his belief in God.

This person cannot be appeased, or reasoned with. Only the total defeat of the enemy is acceptable. This is the true danger, that is growing, in the Moslem world. People like this are trying very hard, to hijack the faith, and they are having moderate amounts of success. They do not want to know the enemy, and wish to remain in a state of blind hatred.



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 01-06-2003).]

The problem with that, Bugimus, is that's what we've (the United States) always been doing. Our government decides what is right according to $$$, and thats not necessarily a good thing. The problem is we decide what is right based on $$$ with only given consideration to how it will effect our politicians poll #s and a small handful of 'friends', which now seems to be soley the UK. With recent advances in technology the world has shrunk into an awfully small place and as recent events are showing us, not just the United States has WMD. Sooner or later the United States terrible behavior in this world is going to come back to haunt it. As much of a tragedy as September 11th was to the United States, things could have just as easily been alot worse.

Jestah

While I agree with that to a certain extent, it is also an *extremely* narrow view of things.

You refer to a portion of our actions, controlled by a portion of our politicains, but you neglect everything else.

There is not one single entity that decides or executes our actions as a nation...there are many groups acting both independently of each other and in unison with other groups.

You can't deny the good things that America has done in the world any more than you can deny the bad.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-07-2003).]

The US isn't any better or worse than any other country in the world in foreign relations. We're just bigger. When the little guys get riled up, they always blame the big guys for all their problems. Think back on your World History a little bit. Let's see, we can go as far back as the Babylonian Empire, then the Roman Empire, then the British Empire, and now we have America. They don't call it an empire any more, that's passe. But the general feeling is the same. Whoever has the biggest balls and the biggest guns is gonna be hated by a great many people in the world. But America has as many internal problems as any other country in the world. Just because we're good at presenting a united front to the rest of the world doesn't mean we think we're perfect. The large amount of dissention regarding this whole "war" issue should tell you that.

This whole 9/11 incident did it's job in shattering the US economy, which is the main source of US power. Unfortunately, that act had some unforseen consequences. Such as affecting the entire global economy as well. The world in general should be right mad at the folks who started this crap. Not at the US. But anti-Americanism is rampant and was rampant before 9/11. There's really no reason to be surprised about it now. I can't remember who said it up above, but someone made a comment about those other countries wanting what the US represents. In the Middle Eastern countries, this is pretty evident in daily interactions...

An aside to illustrate:
In 1995, I went on an archaeological dig in Israel. We were in the country of Israel for 4 weeks, and then toured important early Christian religious sites in both Israel and Jordan. So I got some exposure to both the Jewish and Arab Israeli culture, as well as strictly Arab Muslim culture in Jordan. In every shop/stall/store where someone was selling something, American/Western influence was prevalent. Whatever goods that the shopkeepers could get their hands on to sell that was American, they had it. Amazing to go so far from my home and still see familiar products lining the store shelves. The younger generation of Israelis and Jordainians all wore Levis jeans and American style clothing... listened to American music, and generally catered to the American lifestyle wherever possible. Even to the point of preferring to take payment in American dollars over Israeli shequilim or Jordanian dinars because with the exchange rate, they come out better anyway. But underneath all of that, many Arabs and even many more Jews (believe it or not) openly showed animosity towards Americans and the American way of life. This was in between some of the major issues that flared up in the Middle East between the Israelis, for supporting America, and the Muslim countries, being of the American-hating persuasion. But the tensions still ran high. Hamas claimed responsibility for an assasination of an Israeli diplimat during that trip, an Hassidic Jew was knifed by an Arab in the foyer of the Damascus Gate leading into the Eastern part of the Old City in Jerusalem shortly after the Hamas incident. (The question there was what in the hell was he doing in East Jerusalem anyway - everyone knows that's the Arab Quarter...) All the while catering to US interests within Israel, and hating them at the same time. It was a pretty weird experience on the whole. But it really brought a lot of the current sentiment of the time home to me. Though I found it strange that while the US supports Israel, and the formation of the Jewish state, the Jewish people in Israel were much more disdainful of American tourists than the Arab people in either Israel or Jordan. And these two countries are the most American-friendly Middle Eastern nations that exist right now...

This whole issue is a really strange mixture of wanting what the Americans have, i.e. democracy and freedom (it you want to believe that), and hating the Americans for having it to begin with. But you wouldn't see even an American militia group blowing up an Arabic office building and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to prove a point like that. We'll keep our arguments in the family, thank you very much (Oklahoma City... 1996, I think). 9/11 was wrong on so many levels, and Osama bin Laden deserves anything he gets for it, and I think the US hasn't looked for him as hard as we might have just to avoid blowing this incident up into World War III. I don't agree with many of Bush's policies, at home or abroad, and I do believe that the whole election miscount in Florida was rigged so that Gore wouldn't get voted in. But that's just me. There's no guarantee that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if Gore had been in office instead. (Actually, I voted for Ralph Nader... he seemed to be the lesser of 3 evils...) And I think the controversy surrounding Bush's installment as the President is the reason he didn't just drop a bomb on Afganistan and have done with it.

But the people of the world who already hate us, will continue to hate America regardless of the path we choose in this conflict.

Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 01-07-2003).]

I'm denying nothing. The United States has been responsible for plenty of good things throughout its short spurt as the dominant country, but these good things have mostly served itself. To say otherwise is just ignoring history and the facts, things US citizens try not to acknowledge. This isn't really my point though. My point is our good deeds doesn't void our bad actions. Its common knowledge that after WWII the United States government realized without a stable Europe, we had no one to sell our goods too. Therefore we sent plenty of aid and machinery over to Europe. Yes, its a wonderful act but that act shouldn't be used to justify our hesitation to take a stand in Yugoslavia, and many Americans seem to think it is.

Thats just foolish and until the United States becomes more responsible we'll be targeted for hate and attacks. Its just the simple facts of life.

To have the viewpoint that other countries hate the United States because they're jealous of what we have is just being ignorant.

Jestah

[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 01-07-2003).]

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My point is our good deeds doesn't void our bad actions.

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Sure.

And my point is that it works the other way around as well.

And that there is more to it than simply financial gain. You make it sound as if we are simply a manufacturing plant looking for customers. I don't know the facts on the issue, but I would be willing to bet that we buy more overseas than we sell...

Here's a question that may focus on some of the differences we're hitting:

What is the difference between one guy who gives to a charity in order to get a tax write-off versus a guy who gives the exact same amount to a charity because he loves humanity?

Jestah, that is mainly aimed at you. I would really love your thoughts on it.

quote:

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To have the viewpoint that other countries hate the United States because they're jealous of what we have is just being ignorant.

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I don't find that to be an ignorant belief at all. It represents human nature to it's smallest extent. Have you ever watched one child trying to take toys away from another child? It doesn't really matter what it is or whether it's theirs to begin with. They just want it... until they realize it isn't worth having... It's called human nature, as reprehensible as that is.

I find you viewpoint that we are "greedy westerners" to be the ignorant one. While a stable europe does give us someone to "sell our goods to" it also benefits the world. So yes, we did it to benefit ourselves... because we're part of the world economy. To do otherwise would be to strangle everyone, including ourselves, financially. To believe we only do things to benefit ourselves is to believe that we are truly the fiends that so many people seem to believe we are. Do you really believe that? I highly doubt that the people who make America what it is are so short sighted as too only see what fills our wallets.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

Bugimus, your either missing or ignoring the point.

Your question has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion but I'll answer it anyway. If all else is equal the reasons why a person donates doesn't matter, as far as the charity is concerned its the same.

We're talking about why other countries hate the United States. By your question I get the impression that you believe I feel other countries hate the United States because our good deeds are an attempt to gain money. What I am trying to suggest is other countries hate us because our actions, which are based on an attempt to gain money, sometimes hurt them greatly.

Lets revise your question to suit the situation:

Suppose there is a charity to raise money to fix up a condemned building for affordable housing for the lower class. You are a wealthy businessman while I inherited money. I donate money because I care about the cause. You donate money to get a tax write-off. After months of construction the building is finished. You realize there is more money to be made in converting the affordable housing to an upscale commercial property. You buy out the property and kick out all the people who live there and rent to Dell. The people hate you and not me. Why do the people hate you?

GD - Yes your right. In the early 1990s we sat and watched Muslims being slaughtered in Bosnia in our newspapers and televisions. We didn't even acknowledge it. Not because we didn't see it, it was everywhere, but because it was an election year. Finally, after almost half a decade of genocide we agreed we would help. I admit you are right. They don't hate us because we sat back while they were being killed. They hate us because we have those televisions. :rollseyes:

Yes I've told you I really believe we are these 'fiends that so many people seem to believe we are.'

quote:

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I highly doubt that the people who make America what it is are so short sighted as too only see what fills our wallets.

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Checklist:
President of the United States - millionaire
Vice-president of the United States - millionaire
Advisors - millionaires
Senate - millionaires
Congress - millionaires
Supreme Court -millionaires

Yes I highly doubt money plays any sort of role in these guys lives ...


Jestah

[Monty Python]It's people like you what cause unrest....[/Monty Python]

So you refuse to believe that America is anything other then what you percieve it to be? Any arguement that I state CAN be twisted. I agree. But do you look at it first? Do you actually try and understand that while we have done terrible things, and while we continue to do terrible things. If we stop and don't do those terrible things, they'll STILL hate us. Do you really fall into the fallacy of believing that it matters what we do? It doesn't matter if the government likes us if the people don't. And they won't, probably ever, because they're being taught not to in school. When one of these children grows up and achieves power in the government there or where ever... we'll be in the same fix.

When we had boots on the ground in Saudi we were hated by the people, loved by the government. We left for the sake of the people. Thusly we were tolerated by the people and hated by the goverment. Since then we haven't gone back to Saudi to help the people when they've asked for help in order to not anger the government of Saudi more then it is. Since then the government of Saudi has made it clear to their people that WE are the cause of strife there because we won't come and help. WE CAN'T WIN. If we pull out of everywhere and tell people to fix themselves, we have our own problems, it still won't fix anything. Countries such as Iraq will continue to have issues with the United States for as long as they preach against us and teach hatred against us. "We hate you because you didn't help us even though we didn't ask for your help." "We hate you because we asked for your help and we didn't like it when we got it."

Read this and tell me that we can reason with these people. They're ultimate and all consuming goal is to destroy the United States and all those who support us. It isn't to get our from under the yoke of our authority, it isn't to get the help that they've been asking for, it's to out and out destroy every living american that they can find. To burn the soil or our homeland to dust and ensure that no life survives. Now... granted that's the Al-Qeada(pick your spelling) handbook talking, but even toned down it still spells perpetual hatred for the US stemming out of the middle east. How do we fix it? Damned if I know. I believe that pulling our forces back home and letting people alone won't, I repeat WON'T, fix the problem. They'll hate us for that too.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

GD - I'm very open to ideas why the United States is hated world wide. It seems more likely there are actual reasons for the world at large to hate the United States other then your explanation of "they're jealous." As I eluded to earlier, which is a better reason why Bosnians dislike the United States: We watched them die or we have cable television? It seems to be that you're the one who has a problem in seeing the United States as anything other then what you percieve it to be. Whether you're willing to admit it or not the United States has done terrible things to countries. There is legitimate reason for them to hate us.

Jestah

I don't think anyone is really denying that the US has done terrible things.

But that's not all there is to it Jestah...

There are also many people who hate us *without* legitimate reasons, and yes, simply because we are a wealthy and powerful nation.

To think that people don't hate others soley based on such things as their wealth is quite naive.

Certainly, there are people who hate america that have legitimate reason to. But there are also a huge number of people who simply want a scapegoat, and as the large rich nation, we're it.

And I must add that as a nation, as a government, the US has not done things any worse than most other nations. But again, we're the more visible, the easier target.

Let's not forget North Korea, Cambodia, England, Germany, France, China, Japan, the USSR, Iran, Iraq, just to name a few... The idea that we've done worse things than any of those nations over the last 2 centuries of our existence is absurd.

Now, that's not an excuse. It's not meant to be. Simply a statement to show that many of the nations accusing the US of atrocity are just as guilty or more so of it themselves.

I know that, Jestah. What you're ignoring is that there are other reasons for them to hate us. Reasons that aren't based on our actions but on their continued preaching of hate against us. Our actions started the ball rolling, yes, but we're beyond that now. Repairing what we've done and stopping ourselves from doing terrible things again isn't going to fix anything anymore. They so set in their hatred of us that the reasons for it aren't important anymore. So, yes, there WERE reasons for them to hate us. At this point the hatred of many nations in unjustified. We can't fix this by ourselves. They have to want to try too, and they don't want to try.

I don't view america as anything other than it is. The good and the bad. You seem to be focusing on the bad only. Almost to the extent of saying they were right in their actions on September 11th because their hatred is justified. Justified hatred or not, I can't believe we deserved that. Why does everyone cry out for taking the high road with Saddam and yet not say the same thing to those that work against us? I find it infuriating that people seem to think that we should get what we deserve. The only problem is that the views of those working against us think we deserve to die, all of us, every last one. Unjustified hatred is like that. It can never be satisfied because there is no 'reason' to to be quelled.

You views are disturbing to say the least. I find you verging on some very unpatriotic statements that, while I accept you right to state them, won't engender respect nor friendship from me. If I'm inaccurate in my perceptions about you... feel free to try and explain yourself but this isn't the first time we've butt heads over a topic. I've found you to be a waste of breath, yet... I'll keep trying.

[edit: Dangit... beat me too it DL-44]
GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 01-08-2003).]

Plain & simple, I believe this reasoning that the United States is hated because of superficial reasons, mainly they're jealous, is just more denying and down playing of the United States actions through out history, generally by but not limited to Americans. I'm well aware, especially in this post-September 11th period, being honest about the United States is very anti-American.

We're so self-absorbed that we naturally assume other countries dislike us because we're wonderful.

If we were to poll average citizens why countries hate us, I'd be willing to bet money that "they're jealous" would be the #1 reason.

Just out of curiousity, do both of you hate everyone who has more money then you?


Jestah

Jestah, all you're doing is totally ignoring every reply to you that's been made by DL, Bugs, and Gryth. They've all admitted that the U.S. has done some shitty stuff. I don't think anyone here is denying that. The point is that most people of the nations in question are uneducated. Their hatred does not lie in their personal knowledge of any atrocities that the U.S. has committed, it stems from a general, ingrained hatred that is shared amongst the populations of many of these countries.

Ask any bigot why they hate other races and you'll get a very dissatisfying answer that usually resembles something like "well, I don't know, I just DO!"

I would imagine that there are a great deal of people out there with legitimate gripes against the U.S. But I would "bet money" that there are far more who really don't know why they hate America if you'd press them.

As for you, you have this very annoying habit of dismissing pertinent replies to your posts. If you'll go back and reread this thread you'll find several well thought out replies.

That is, unless you're just "missing or ignoring the point." Which I think is probably the case.

Yes, please do us all - especially yourself - a favor. Go back a nd actually *read* the posts you've so far dismissed.

Now actually take a moment to lsiten to waht's being said, and comprehend the meaning of it.

Now, try to actually respond to any of the points made. Preferably with some sort of "reasoning" or "logic" or "thought".

Unitl you do that, you're just wasting time and bandwidth. Nobody is arguing with you, yet you seem to feel the need to argue.

Curious character trait.

Thank you, krets. I would have been... less then eloquent. I'll try and bring myself to your standard.

Jestah - My statement has nothing to do with your comments about the history of America. Such is well known and can't be refuted. My statement relates directly to your support of the hatred against America. Every argument you put forth returns to that implied support, if not explicitly stating it.

What I (and others) are trying to get you to see is that there are people out there in the world who have no reasons to hate America. They aren't jealous, they haven't been oppressed, there is no reason for it... yet they do.

To answer your somewhat misplaced question... No, I don't hate those with more money then me. I understand that those 1-3% with billions of dollars push the advances in science and industry that make the jobs in this country and allow us to continue on in our search for answers and cures and everything else. I understand the necessity of the rich. I admit that I aspire to be rich one day. I don't find that a damning thing. What you don't see on the other side of it is that I don't expect anything from the rich either. They aren't there to take care of me, nor are they there to make sure that my government takes care of me. We aren't a socialist country, we're a republic. We take responsiblity for ourselves(at least some of us do).

Now, I have a question for you, Jestah.

As yet I have found no reason to believe that you think the attacks on September 11th were anything but what we deserved. I find that prospect reprehensible, so I have to find out the truth.

Do you believe that we got what we deserved on Sept. 11th and therefore have no right to go after those that are responsible for it?

[Edit]Dangit, DL. You beat me again. LOL[Edit]

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 01-08-2003).]

Did you even bother looking at this thread Krets? While I've disagreed with the three of them, I think I've acknowledged and commented on every single post Bugimus, DL, & GD have made. If you go back and read this thread you'll see that I didn't ignore them. Just because I don't agree with your friends doesn't mean I'm ignoring them.

Being formally educated and not knowing whats going on around you are two different things Krets.

I'm sure most of Japan was uneducated when the United States dropped two atomic bombs on them. Are you suggesting to me that an average Japanese citizen wouldn't know who dropped these bombs?



Jestah

quote:

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Do you believe that we got what we deserved on Sept. 11th and therefore have no right to go after those that are responsible for it?

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My parents live on Long Island - about a 15 minute drive from NYC. We keep an apartment in the city, where I sometimes stay when I'm home from school. I go to school in D.C. While talking about US foreign policy leads to interesting discussion in forums I happen to be in the line of fire. Do I think we've gotten what we deserved? What type of question is that? The United States have commited argueably the worlds worst crimes and because we're the stongest nation they're overlooked. That doesn't mean we deserve something like that. So when people like Bugimus say fuck what other countries think of us, it bothers me. This isn't the 1600s. Any terrorist or disgruntled foriegn citizen with enough money has the option of traveling to the United States and detonating a bomb in the middle of Time Square.

Going after who's responsible is fine. We had world wide support to do that. In typical US fashion though we sacraficed both global & domestic support in going after Iraq, and for what? :knock: :knock: personal gain? We've watched first hand our support deteriorate. What makes us think this is going to be good for US press? Wait nevermind. People in Iraq can't POSSIBLY know we're attacking them for personal gain. After all - most of them hasn't passed physics.


Jestah

[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 01-08-2003).]

The average Japanese citizen is who they are today because of the four years of effort the United States put into helping Japan become what it is today. Sure they know we did it. They accept the fact that we realize how terrible it was. They were willing to LET GO of their hate and let us make amends. If some of these countries would accept anything less then death as recompense I think things would be going a bit smoother, don't you?

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

The effort the United States put into helping Japan become what it is today? We dropped two atomic weapons on a country to avoid sharing it with Russia and you view it a positive for the United States! You must think Hitler did wonders for the Jews ...

Jestah

Dumbass, do you know about anything we did for them afterwards?

Let's not forget about how many people were killed in the name of the cause the Japanese were fighting for at the time. I think that our act of dropping the bomb will not be forgotten for a long time by either the Japanese or the US.

However, we did help them get back on their feet and become what they are today.

It's not about forgetting, it's about forgiving.

No Jestah, you did not acknowledge much of anything anyone has said.

You've passed it all by in your rush to reiterate the same point repeatedly. Even though no one has disaggreed with your point.

You obviously enjoy walking in circles with your eyes closed.

Have fun.

(and if you ever get around to checking out those posts up ^ there, feel free to add some sort of relevant responses to them...)