Topic awaiting preservation: A four-winged dinosaur...the evolutionary intermediate? (Page 2 of 2)

Hehe...that was good. No offence meant, BTW.

Well, I agree Bugs. Wholeheartedly. It would be plainly wrong to say, that the theory of evolution was a finished product as it now is. However, it is progressing...and being refined...and edited as new evidence comes to light. That somewhat relieves me...for were it to be considered 'finished' as it now stands...then I would have to seriously question it. And that is why I gave religion a pass...it is finished. So, any holes, disparities, and errors, cause the religious sector to scramble for a way to adapt...to refute. And that is plainly wrong, IMHO.

HOLY SHIT I FOUND GOD!!!!! AAAHHHHHHHAAAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHA I DID IT!!!

ITS TRUE AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!! I AM MOTHAFUCKING GENIUS!!!!!!

*runs into the basement screaming, out of nowhere suho jumps out and shocks me*
*falls to the flour*

*breath slowly*

I....I...did...it.... suho? what ar..e you doing?...where a..re..you taking me?....suho...w.w..ai..t......do..n..t... oo..h.h.sh.ii..t....not again

Personally I'm a person who thinks of things in relative terms to anything else. If 'God' came from somewhere else, in that place, no, he/she would not be a supreme being, but in this universe, in relative terms to everything else around that he/she created, then yes...God is a supreme being.

ruski is a genius....

"Salting the back of a snail... My turkish prison is knowing that i fit in...."- Glassjaw

fuel for the fire

Gen1:11=And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,the herb...etc
Gen1:12=And the earth brought forth grass,and herb...etc
Gen1:20=And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life...etc
Gen1:21=...,which the waters brought forth abundantly...etc
Gen1:24=And God said, Let the earth bring forth...and it was so.

~as you like it~

If you have a point to make, perhaps you just should?

god made the herb man...

i always knew he was a pothead.

"Salting the back of a snail... My turkish prison is knowing that i fit in...."- Glassjaw

the point being evolution

the earth brought forth? the water brought forth?
why do so many people think that creation and evolution are at such odds?
and science? science is just a tool. religion is just a tool.

edit:
quote
"The only way, to actually prove Religion (or Belief) is if there was provable evidence of God's existence. There may (or may not) be indirect evidence, but the heart of the issue is unproven. That's why it is an issue of belief."

Doesn't this also apply to Science? Isn't it the aim of Science to find the beginning and the end of things--to ultimately answer the questions of where did it come from and where is it going and WHY?

We look outward to the end of the Universe and, as Scientists, think we are seeing the edge of it, but whats beyond that, is only conjecture and theory. We look inward and think we see the microscopic beginnings of life but, again, beyond what we see, it is only conjecture and theory.

What makes us think there is a beginning or ending? Who's to say that at some point the whole thing doesn't fold in on itself and go on forever folding in and out? Evolving, mutating, ever changing. As has been stated, it boils down to belief. And what is belief but faith. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Infinity is a hard concept to grasp, but it is what i believe. My God.

/rant
*wanders off again to find a cold beer

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 01-31-2003).]

Thanks, I have a better idea of where you're coming from now. I think most of those things you ask are open questions and will probably remain so for a long time to come.

I disagree that science seeks to answer WHY though. How exactly can it do that? Science deals with the material world through measurements and careful analysis of those measurements. It is up to entities with the capability of asking "why" to decide the answer to that question. And that answer as far as I know always comes down to faith or a lack thereof.

Just out of curiosity, what are your personal beliefs on religion. Are you Xian or some other faith? Or what? I haven't been able to tell from your posts that I have read. Only if you don't mind of course

i loathe what the label of christian has become these days
i stand on the rock
covered by blood

Did that brew thrust you back into pretentious mode? You're killing me here!

sorry

My friend, it's just that my powers of understanding some of your comments are a bit below par. Can I assume that you are a believer in Jesus Christ but are very disillusioned with many organizations that tout his name? I don't like guessing about your views because I don't want to get them wrong. It's much easier, and accurate, for me to have you tell me

[edit] I'm having some strange caching double posting problems here and I just posted a similar reply and then noticed the first one was there [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-31-2003).]

the same doubleposting thing happened to me yesterday
my post didn't show up for quite some time. then when i reposted -pow- both posts showed up--?

i don't mean to derail this thread but, yes bugs you've got it right
i apologize if my comments seem cryptic at times
my communication skills must be somewhat lacking
even though at times it is intentional

quote:

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How can something come out of nothing? That defies the laws of Physics...

-counterfeitbacon

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Not necessarily.

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 01-31-2003).]

You can't defy a law that doesn't exist, eh? Interesting.

Rap thats damn intresting...why we never heard of it before?

That was brilliant! I am really astonished by that...nice link!

Wow...

Ok, it's just a theory, at this point. However, it does show how the Universe could have formed naturally...

I'm more than overjoyed at that concept...*hugs Science*

Yup, thanks for bring that up Bug's. Evolutionary Creation. You got it.

Here's another one for you, which I wrote.

Evolutionary Creation

Humm. Pretty good read, Raptor

Cell 816~ teamEarth ~Asylum Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 01-31-2003).]

I read in Discovery magazine that there is a fossil factory in China. It just so happens that this fossil was "discovered" in that region.

And your point?

Are you perhaps suggesting, that China manufactured the fossils? Then I suggest you re-read the articles over the find...

Personally, I would like to know what belief you follow...but that is up to you.

Yeah, it's really a good read. The math does weird things to me. Oddly, it makes sense even though it's far over my head

Hebedee: Do you have a link to the story? Most of Discover's articles end up online.

This is very interesting The WMAP Findings, esp. this

quote:

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The new WMAP data also strengthen the Big Bang theory, and strongly support experiments showing that the shape of the universe is flat.

--Science Blog

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Evidence supporting Guth's Grand Guess...yah!

God is getting smaller...hehe...

quote:

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God is getting smaller...hehe...

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Well, while I am personally quite confident that there is no such thing as a 'god', this doesn't in any way dispell the idea that there is one.

'god' could just as easily have started the universe with a big bang as any other way

Amen brodda! This really doesn't have any bearing on those of us who see no contention between religion and science. Anybody who thinks it has to be only one of those however is affected by findings such as these.

I urge anyone interested in the so called science vs. religion issue to read this book God and the Astronomers.

I'm fairly certain no one is rushing out to get that book so I really wanted to post one of the best bits for y'all.

The following comes from God and the Astronomers by Robert Jastrow, W.W. Norton & Company, 1992, pp 106,107.

quote:

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Consider the enormity of the problem. Science has proven that the Universe exploded into being at a certain moment. It asks, what cause produced this effect? Who or what put the matter and energy into the Universe? Was the Universe created out of nothing, or was it gathered together out of pre-existing materials? And science cannot answer these questions, because, according to the astronomers, in the first moments of its existence the Universe was compressed to an extraordinary degree, and consumed by the heat of a fire beyond human imagination.
The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion. An entire world, rich in structure and history, may have existed before our Universe appeared; but if it did, science cannot tell what kind of world it was. A sound explanation may exist for the explosive birth of our Universe; but if it does, science cannot find out what the explanation is. The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation.

This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. To which St. Augustine added, "Who can understand this mystery or explain it to others?" The development is unexpected because science has had such extraordinary success in tracing the chain of cause and effect backward in time. We have been able to connect the appearance of man on this planet to the crossing of the threshold of life on the earth, the manufacture of the chemical ingredients of life within stars that have long since expired, the formation of those stars out of the primal mists, and the expansion and cooling of the parent cloud of gases out of the cosmic fireball.

Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

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About the Author:

An internationally known scientist and authority on life in the Cosmos, Dr. Jastrow is the Director of the Mount Wilson Institute, which manages the Mount Wilson Observatory in California, the site of the first discoveries leading to the Big Bang theory. Dr. Jastrow joined NASA at the time of its formation, and founded and was for 20 years the Director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Dr. Jastrow was the first Chairman of NASA's Lunar Exploration Committee, which set the scientific goals for the exploration of the moon. He is the recipient of the NASA Medal for Excellence in Scientific Achievement and a member of the Board of Governors of the National Space Society. Formerly Professor of Astronomy and Geology at Columbia University and Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth College, Dr. Jastrow is widely known for his television appearances in astronomy and space exploration. He has been host of more than 100 CBS-TV network programs on space science. Dr. Jastro's books on astronomy and space have sold more than a million copies.

[edit] Is it ever possible to post anything without typos? Ack!!! [/edit]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 02-15-2003).]

quote:

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he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

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Ack. Now that's just getting a little absurd.

Scientists are at a place where they can't explain something, and so the people that have never tried to explain it have somehow beat them to something??



It seems to drop everything right back to the stoneage ignorance that says 'we can't explain it, so it must be the gods'

See, that doesn't make god 'bigger' any more than WS' quotes make god 'smaller'.
God is a concept. Conveniently adaptable to fit whatever niche people would like it fit in. And people have tried to fit god into just about every niche conceivable.

=)

Heavens to Betsy! I didn't post that to make God "bigger". The point is very well put in that excerpt and that is why I included as much as I did.

It's just that he's saying that if all the tools of science are made useless prior to the Big Bang, then there is nothing left for the scientist (scaling this mountain of knowledge) but to sit back and acknowledge 'it just happened' which is hardly different from 'God spoke'.

quote:

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The shock of that instant must have destroyed every particle of evidence that could have yielded a clue to the cause of the great explosion.

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I love paradox.

No, I know you didn't post it to make god bigger...that was really just an aside, realtion to WS' quote and all...

It just seems silly to me...the implication that if we can't explain, it must be god.

That mentality would stop us from ever *trying* to explain things...and I can't fathom it.

We've reached an impasse in science, so let's acquiesce to religion? That's what I'm getting from his statement anyway...we've come this far, can't explain the rest, so....screw it - god did it.

I don't think he's saying you give in to anything because you hit a road block. I think the point is that the road block could bring both sides to the exact same location. How each side chooses to answer at that location is still at variance.

*sigh*

Guthrie's Grand Guess describes how the Universe came into creation...and what was there before. Now, evidence for what (if anything) was there before may be hard to come by...and may not be hard to come by. We will see. Just because someone says 'The evidence was blown to smithereens' doesn't make it so.

God is getting smaller, meant that Science is once again rolling back the unknown...providing evidence for theories, that explain the unknown. Isn't that what Science does best? Explain the unknown? And isn't that where God is 'hiding'? That's all that I meant...

I don't believe in God...so...*shrugs*

Whatever.

I don't believe in god either, but all I'm saying is, no matter how much we learn about the universe through sicence, it doesn't actually prove that there isn;t a 'god' who was actually doing all these things.

It might disprove many specific beliefs of many people, but it can always be said that, 'well sure that;s how happened, because god made it that way'.

Whihc, from my personal point of view is a bunch of crap, but it's just as valid a belief as any other, really...

Well, yes, DL...but that 'pushes' God further back...to outside of the Universe...one could then try to make a case that God created the conditions for a natural start of the Universe...but that is not the same as actually creating the Universe...the difference between adding chemicals to get a reaction, and designing the chemicals for a specific reaction.

You know, Einstein was a really brilliant man (just about everything he theorized, has now been supported, with evidence). However, even he disbelieved some of his own theories - because he just couldn't put that together, and hold his belief in God ("God does not play dice" - Einstein).

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 02-17-2003).]