Topic awaiting preservation: What Would You Do? Part V (Page 1 of 1)

Most of us here are web designers or developers .. so let's tackle a question related to our field of work

You've been offered to do a adult website .. just the graphic design work and a little coding work but not much on that end of things .. money isn't promising at first but once the site gets more clientele you will reek the benefits .. but your thinking is this something I really want to be involved in?

So What Would You Do?

[note: this one boys I'm not going to say if this is close to my life or not right now .. you'll all just going to have to wonder]


.::. cEll .::. 513

RammStein: Good question and one I have been meaning to bring up for a while as I was curious to know what people think on this. I knew a guy in passing who was setting up an adult site and did ponder this issue before we had a drunken 'disagreement' one night (I seem to remember it revolving around my thinking he was a prick and he disagreed - although he did later apologise to me so...).

Basically my take is that, as long as I didn't find the content morally offensive, I would happily take the work. However, I would be unlikely to specifically discuss it in a portfolio unless I was specifically chasing more work in the adult industry, as it would probably put other 'respectable' clients off. If it paid well (as it seems to do) then it would give one breathing room to be a bit more picky with which clients you worked with.

Soooo I know some of you have done some web design/graphics work on the fringes of the adult industry and I'd be interested to hear what everyone's take on this is.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I am also interested in this...who is making all those porn sites?

WS: I suspect they are all around us However,:

a) they proably don't boast about it.

b) Porn webmasters probably get so well paid they don't need to take vanilla jobs

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

And some links (no porn but pos. some adult issues):

Excessive code and excessive nudity. What gives?

Actually I had to cut a number of links out as they tend to degrade into offensive, immature rubbish.

It has even come up in assignments:
www.rrcc-online.com/~charlottew/Ethical%20Issues2.htm

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I can just hear it now. What a hypocrite!!! He spouts all this Christianity at us all the time and then he goes and builds a porn site!

Why is porn wrong? It is as simple and complex as this: human beings become objects.

Ramm, if you are doing a site like that, please do me a favor and keep it to yourself.

It all depends. Most people regard porn as being "dirty", but I think pornography is not a sin (or whatever you want to call it). It can be harmful when the subject matter is suffering for the sake of the photo session, such as child porn or gory porn. If said website wouldn't do anything illegal, it's just a business like any other.

Personally I wouldn't mind, but I think I'd keep it quiet for most of the rest of the world.

mahjqa: Thanks I was feeling a little silly there

My main concern is that (as with many aspects of the adult industry) the money is good and you start out doing things which don't offend whatever moral framework you operate in and then the temptation of money means you might push the envelope a little further until a couple of years down the line you realise that although you are earning top dollar you are working on things you wouldn't have done at the start and all of a sudden it is awfully difficult to get out of because of the good money and the big gap in your resume

So I would tend to avoid it for that reason (although I have no big objections to it). I'm sure there is plenty of work in the adult industry that doesn't invovle people being exploited but it is also easy to get sucked in.

Bugs: I'm not sure what you mean here:

quote:

---

What a hypocrite!!! He spouts all this Christianity at us all the time and then he goes and builds a porn site!

---

Do you mean you have? Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't think there is anything in the Bible about (unless it is that bit about covetting your neighbours ass).

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Emperor - I had assumed Bug's statement there was a hypothetical. not entirely sure either though.

Personally, I have no problem with porn in general, and would have no problem taking work doing design for a porn site...provided, as mahjqa said, it's not dealing with child/violent type stuff. Of course, there's never any gaurantee of such things I suppose...which complicates it a little.

No, I might not tout it as the pride of my portfolio. =)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 02-06-2003).]

i've had opportunities to do adult sites and turned them down, and had a former co-worker who did some and heard a few of his stories. the quality of people he seemed to be working with was just...*shudder*...yeah...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

My comments were hypothetical. I was envisioning what the reaction quite possibly could be if people knew that I had.

Bugs: Ah right - sorry. I don't really want to go down that road (as I'd be interested in exploring who would do what) but it wouldn't, strictly, be against Christian teachings would it?

I might be suprised if you had done something on one of the more extreme sites but I doubt I would think any more or less of you for it.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

"I don't really want to go down that road." Me neither

Well, since this question is asking whether or not I, personally, would work on a porn site, I would say no. I do believe that porn is a sin, and my belief is based on the following passages in the Bible (please note that the following is not preaching, per se, I'm just clarifying why I believe what I do):

Old Testament (original law)
Exodus 20:14 - "You shall not commit adultery."

New Testament (fulfillment of the law)

Matthew 5:27-28 - "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Actually, the above applies to a lot more than just porn, and if I were to be truthful I would have to say that I've committed a whole lot of adultery--thank God for forgiveness. Porn, though, is much more willful than just walking by a girl and doing a double take.

Anyway, those are my beliefs on it, and that's why I would never consider doing any work on a porn site. Even if I were never actually exposed to the pictures, I would avoid it on principle. That being said, I would not judge someone else if they told me they were working on a porn site. That's their business.

Suho1004: Good explanation (and not a bit preachy) - I suppose it also ties into the 'if thy eye doth offend thee pluck it out' business too and potential the business about not shedding your seed on stoney ground (I suspect that last bit may be wrong - it has been a while since I last nosed through anything other than Revelations).

Why do I see this thread getting search engine hits for 'Does God approve of porn' and 'Is porn a sin'. I think we have the answer

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

No way, in my book the objectification of human beings is an awful thing.

Jason

like bugs and suho, i think i would be turning down the job.
...and yes, i do believe looking at pronographic material is sinful.

suho provided some excellent reasons, i have a slightly different approach on it as well:
we are made in the image of God, and told to 'love thy neighbour'.
now, the love this speaks of is not the 'eros' love, which says "i love you for what you do for me - you make me feel great! ", it's the 'agape' love - you know, "i'll love you no matter what, in spite of what you do to me" - look at jesus.
When you use the images of a person simply for your sexual gratification, that's really not loving them.
Also, that's not how God wanted our desires to be met.
Look at the intimacy in sharing sex with one person, your spouse, over a lifetime - sure, one woudl expect that your sexual appetite is catered for, but there's also a love there too.
And there's nothing like that when it comes to looking at boobies.


which, however, i am slightly unsure of.
i have seen, and will see, countless pairs of breasts.
without any sort of "cor, i wouldn't mind ......" i can simply look, and say "she is quite beautiful!"


now, i do not dispute that the viewing of sexual organs, acts, etc etc, but the former situation - what's your stance on that, bugs et al?

[WARNING: Extreme soul dump ahead. You have been warned.]

Emps: You're right. In fact, the "pluck out the offending eye" verse is the very next verse in Matthew after what I quoted above.

reitsma: Very good point--love is really the foundation of it all. Perhaps I should be thinking more like that, but when it comes to porn and things like that, the first person I think of is my wife. When I sometimes think about how much I love her, it becomes readily apparent to me why porn is wrong for me.

Let's face it, we can be told how much something may be wrong, but until we actually understand for ourselves why it is wrong the consequences of our actions will not sink in. It's kind of like pre-marital sex (yes, I know I'm kind of getting off topic here, but bear with me--I do have a point). I grew up in a Christian family, and for as long as I can remember I was told that pre-marital sex was wrong. I heard it from my parents, I heard it from the church, I even heard it on TV during the AIDS scare when people were saying things like "the best protection against sexually transmitted diseases is abstinence." To be honest with you, though, I never actually understood why it was wrong. It was just something I had been indoctrinated with.

Then I went away to university, and I was exposed to extreme freedom without the understanding that there would actually be consequences to my actions. I fell in love with a girl there, and our relationship developed rather quickly. She knew what I believed, and she also knew how I felt about pre-marital sex (or how I had been told to think). One night (one of the many we spent together) she asked me, "How can this be wrong? We're in love." I didn't have an answer for her. I didn't actually come up with a satisfactory answer until a year later, when we broke up and I was devestated. I thought to myself, "This is why they said it was wrong--a break-up shouldn't have to hurt this much."

But that wasn't really the answer. I didn't find the answer until one cold night in Seoul, as I sat outside a convenience store in Gangnam with my future wife. Then, as I came to the realization that this was the woman I would spend the rest of my life with, it hit me: I blew it. Here was the woman I wanted to give everything, every last bit of my being. But I couldn't, because I had already given a part of myself away that I could never get back.

The girl I mentioned above wasn't the only one in university, but she was the first, and we formed a bond that is very difficult to break. The last time I saw her was years after we had broken up, after I had left for Korea (but before I had met my wife). I was visiting the States, and I saw her again. We had dinner at her place, and we talked for a while, and then I left. Before I left she gave me a hug... no, it wasn't a hug. She held me, like she didn't want to let me go, like she knew that was the last time we would ever see each other and she didn't want to let go. And, to be honest, I didn't want to let go either. I realized that I would always carry around a part of her, and she would carry around a part of me, and the waves of time may dull the emotions but they would never fully wash the memory away.

So why does this suck? Because she was not the one. I'm with that one now, and I love her like I've never loved anyone before and will never love anyone again. But I couldn't give her everything. Don't get me wrong--this doesn't mean married life is not happy and satisfying for us. It is. But it could have been more, and there's a part of me that wishes I knew then what I know now.

I know we're not talking about pre-marital sex, we're talking about porn, but the same general principle applies for me. I love my wife, and I want to give her every part of me. But if I'm thinking about girls I have seen in various states of undress, those are parts of me that I can't give to my wife. No, it's not love by any stretch of the imagination, but it would chip away at the foundation of my love for my wife.

I know that doesn't sound like a necessarily Christian view--it might appear that I am replacing God with my wife. That's not true, though. I know that my first responsibility is to God, but He has entrusted my wife to my care, and I am obeying Him by loving her. We express our love and obedience to God through our love and respect for our fellow man.

Wow. I can't believe I just said all that. I wonder if I should even submit this. Eh, I've said much worse...

I guess I just wanted to explain how I personally feel about the issue, and it kind of got out of hand.

good stuff suho, thanks for sharing that. i've met my future wife, and i so wish i could take back anything i'd ever given away. luckily (and with some divine intervention) i avoided big mistakes that i'm very thankful for.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Hmmm...thanks for that, Master Suho.

In reverse to you, I have done just about everything wrong, that there is to do. Relationships? Uncountable. Women? The same, just worse. Divorce. Now I'm married to a wonderful woman. Took a long time, to get a hell of a lot of stuff out of my system. And I'm not an easy person to live with, either. Anyone who accepts me, must accept that I'm a mass murderer, an earlier drug-user, come from a very turbulent and poor childhood, am prone to violence, has a very high intelligence, is very well trianed in not only dealing out violence, but also in manipulating, has secrets that cannot be told, or discussed, has a very large amount of experience, both worldly and of myself. I have rarely found anyone willing to deal with all this. My wife does, and can. With that, I am extremely happy.

Now, what does all that have to do with porn? Porn is something I got introduced to at an early age...in my house, it wasn't anything special. In my neighborhoods neither. Now, to someone who is young, and curious, and full of hormones, this is a prize, indeed! However, with time, it became rather...boring, really. These days, it holds little interest for me, at all. I've seen just about everything there is to see, and lived just about everything I ever dreamed of doing, so...it's mostly all 'old hat', so to speak.

As for whether or not it is evil...well, I don't believe in good, or evil, so...it's just material. Nothing more, nothing less. For the one, this, for the other, that. It never fails to amaze me, how people can be...affected, by pixels, paint, ink... the medium in which it is presented. I mean, when was the last time a square turned someone on? Granted, that's simplifying the issue. But in essence, that's what it is, IMHO. What becomes a problem is when one allows themselves to be influenced in their behavior, by porn. Just as a movie is just that, a movie, so too, is porn. It is not real, in that sense. Granted, the acts depicted may (or may not depending on the type of porn) take place, but it is rare, that it is actually taking place for any reason other than to sell. It is a product, and like any product, packaged to be sold. In that sense, it does not depict reality, and is a far cry from it. So allowing this, to influence one's behavior, would be a trip into un-reality.

And as Emps said, it wouldn't change my opinion of you, Bugs. Not in the slightest.

Suho .. thanks for sharing that .. but my diffinition of love has changed drastically since my divorce .. but it makes me smile to know that some people do have unconditional love for one another

as for adult sites .. to each there own

I'd go into more but I'd ramble on to much and make little sense .. this is on the subject of "love" .. it's not so much that love is important but how love is received back .. nevermind

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 02-07-2003).]

Well, normally, I'd refuse such a job.

But on the other hand, it'd be nice if more porn sites were accessable, standards-compliant, and CSS-based

Seriously, though, I wouldn't take a job like that. I'd prefer one that I could explain to my family. =)

Here is an interesting article on the new wave of films 'celebrating' the adult industry which comes to some uncomfortable (for the adult industry) conclusions:
www.guardian.co.uk/arts/fridayreview/story/0,12102,889899,00.html

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Well, to answer the original question: if I was single, then yes, I would have no problem with doing a porn site ... I was actually interested in doing magazine design and layout for porn, but dropped the idea once I got married.

Which leads into the real answer: No, I wouldn't have anything to do with the porn industry now because of my family. Certainly wouldn't be worth it now. I know my wife hates the very idea of porn, so out of sincere respect, I would never even consider doing such work.

IMO porn is just entertainment. All that stuff written by Suho above doesn't relate in the least bit to porn as far as I am concerned (no offense or anything Suho). No, I don't visit porn sites or collect movies; just not worth risking a marriage over. However, if I was single, I wouldn't see any harm in having a stack of Club in the closet. ~shrugs~ Whatever floats a person's boat. However, I can understand what WS is saying about "been there done that doesn't interest me anymore." I guess I just never had quite the overdose that he had.

~sneaks a peek at Playboy while no one is looking~ ahem ... just reading the articles ...

Cell Number: 494 / Inkstick

Suho, I'd like to thank you for sharing what I might've found out too late.

I seriously doubt I'd take the job although it wouldn't be for moral or religious reasons. It just wouldn't appeal to me. Perhaps if I were very short on money but other than that, no. If I did take it, I wouldn't promote the fact in a portfolio or on a resume. It would be a means to an end (money) only.

I have nothing against standard pornography really. I don't like it but am not bothered by the fact that others are interested.

I'd look for other work instead.

BeeKay: None of what I said has anything to with porn? Maybe not, but it has plenty to do with the issue at hand, don't you think? I also find your statements to be slightly contradictory...

quote:

---

I know my wife hates the very idea of porn, so out of sincere respect, I would never even consider doing such work.

All that stuff written by Suho above doesn't relate in the least bit to porn as far as I am concerned (no offense or anything Suho).

---

What did I write about? I wrote about love and respect. You love your wife, so you wouldn't work on a porn site. That's basically what I was saying, although I may have gotten a lot deeper into my history and the way I feel about love, etc. No offense taken, of course, I just think you may not have gotten the point of what I was trying to say (which is probably my fault for being too wordy).

mahjqa: All I can say is don't ever forget it, and someday you will be thankful that you didn't.

Again, not preaching here, but if a brother can be encouraged by my experiences, all the better.

Sorry for getting off topic again. I know how much BeeKay hates that.

Just read that. I'm glad you shared that.

Suho: The way I read your post, I took it as meaning love=sex and sex=love. You talked about how you regretted having sex with someone before meeting your wife. Quick question: would the breaking up with that girlfriend have been as tough if you didn't have sex with her ... all else being more or less equal? Did sex make it a more meaningful relationship? Hypothetically, if there was some reason (physical ailment or some such) that you could not have had sex with the girlfriend, would the relationship still have been meaningful? (sorry .. more than a quick question there, eh?)

I guess the part I got stuck on concerning your post was about regretting having had sex for the first time with someone before ever meeting your future wife. Of course, I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm wrong. I guess it's just a different way of viewing life.

I don't know how this is going to come off as sounding, but I regret not having had more sex before getting married. I don't think that makes me a bad/evil or whatever. I think sex can be a part of loving someone. But I also think sex can be just for pleasure with no love involved.
So, in a way, yes, I did get the point of your post. On another level, though, I guess I might have missed something.

Thus (in a weak attempt to get back on topic ) if my wife had no real problems with porn, then I might consider working on a porn project if the opportunity came up. It's entertainment (with a quick disclaimer thrown in about not condoning sex if any party is unwilling or if it involves violence or minors ... don't want to leave any loopholes out there).

Cell Number: 494 / Inkstick

well, imo the idea of separating sex from love is the problem. we've made it so commonplace to sleep with whoever you want that its not at all associated with love anymore, it can be but if its not, enh, no big deal. and that's not how its designed.

when you have sex your first time you leave a part of yourself with that person, you're giving something away that you only give once, and there's a bond created between those two people. when you break up with that person and go have sex with someone else it's a little easier to give it up that time because the value isn't quite the same, you've done it before. from there it gets easier and easier until its just not that special anymore. be it for pleasure or love or whatever it all becomes the same.

i personally like the idea of it being a bit more than that with the woman i want to spend the rest of my life with.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

HEYACK NO.

I just dont see it as respectful. To fantasy, to desire to use some one else's body for your sole pleasure... to toss away minutes later for something else? Caring not for what ever they think... feel... Its all about you.

But why respect someone who does that? Because they are human? They are each very special and unique. I cant describe it, but other people are the most important think in this world. Something to treasure and respect? not use and abuse.


                                   

Had this same discussion with a colleague recently after he met a woman who runs an internet porn site.
(annual turnover = £3.5M (aprox) - around US$ 5.8M)

It boils down to a simple question of Money vs Human Objectification.
Which means the most to you?



[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 02-09-2003).]

BeeKay: I don't have a lot of time to answer at the moment (got to get to bed), but I do want to say i'm disappointed that that's how you read my post. Either that is an over-simplification or I just didn't do a good job of explaining how I feel. Sex may be one thing for you, and it may be another for me. It is not the ultimate thing in a relationship, but because of the way I feel about it and love, having sex with another woman means more than just having sex with her--it means giving part of myself to her. When I said I gave up a part of myself that I could never take back, I wasn't talking simply about my virginity--it was the part of me that went with it. We obviously have different views on this, so I don't expect we're going to come to any sort of agreement.

As for your question, there's no way I can know the answer to that, since I broke up with her after I had slept with her and not before. In other words, there's no way I can determine if it would have been easier to break up with her before we slept together. I know that's probably not a satisfactory answer, but I thought about it, and that's the best I can come up with.

Now, since you asked me a question, let me ask you a question: since sex for you is not tied to love, would you have no problem sleeping with a woman other than your wife? I know you are going to reply that you wouldn't because you respect your wife (which is a valid answer, of course), but what I want to know is if you think it is inherently wrong to sleep with other women even after you're married. Your ideas on sex and love really only leave you one answer, of course.

And I'll second what Fig said. That's pretty much how I feel about it.

Sorry if this isn't making sense, but I'm getting pretty tired... I'd better get to bed.

I'm digging myself a hole here. But if I wanted to remain consistant and honest for the sake of this conversation, then I gotta answer honestly, eh?

I've asked myself this question every now and again, usually during long drives when there is nothing to do but think. "If given the perfect situation, as in there is no possible way in the world to get caught or catch a disease etc., would I sleep with another woman?" The short and simple answer: maybe I would ... with a leaning towards yes.

However, a "perfect" situation is more of a fantasy than reality. There is almost always the possibility of getting caught in some way. So, would I ever actually do it? No.

So this leads to the question of why would I consider cheating if given a "perfect" situation and yet not consider it if there is any chance of getting caught. Love. I couldn't possibly hurt this wonderful woman that I love.

Seems strange, eh? It's not really. I can be quite selfish provided it doesn't hurt those I love and care about. No, I don't see that as a contradiction. I see it as not deluding myself. It's so easy to lie to yourself, and I just see recognizing who I am and what I would do given a certain situation as being honest.

-------

Addressing a separate subject: objectifying. When I talk about sex without love or porno, I am talking about all parties involved consenting. I'm not naive enough to think that all 'porno babes' are excited (or even fully willing) to be stripping for the cameras. However, folks should likewise not be naive enough to think that all people in the porno biz are victims.

So, there ya go. The world according to BeeKay. Take it or leave it. Shall we agree to disagree?

Cell Number: 494 / Inkstick

my idea for a formal debate

http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000685.html


.::. cEll .::. 513

Yes, I think we shall agree to disagree.

You answered honestly, and you answered the best you could given the circumstances. If that is truly how you feel, and you are able to completely divorce sex and love, then for you sleeping with a woman not your wife would not be immoral. I wonder, though, if you would truly feel no guilt in the ideal situation you described--but I guess that's another one of those things we'll never know.

I do agree with our assessment of the porn business, but that does not mean that it still might be wrong for some people. If I may dwell on this for a moment, I see a common thread running through this and your thinking about (if I may call it so) adultery. That common thread appears to be a way of thinking very similar to Wiccan teachings: "Do what you will, as long as you don't harm anyone" (paraphrase).

For you, everything is permissible as long as you are not harming anyone, whether it be your wife or porn industry "victims" (this latter is indirect, of course, in that you are harming them by participating in the industry and thus perpetuating the cycle). If your wife would not be harmed, and if the porn industry workers are not really victims, then there is no problem with doing what you will, right? I hope I'm not going too far with this, I'm just trying to understand your way of thinking and the underlying principles.

And I suppose I should take RS' subtle hint to shut up and take this outside.

Suho .. actually I'm not asking you to be quiet or move this elsewhere .. I just thought premarital sex would be a good formal discussion since it sparked such a debate in here


.::. cEll .::. 513

Ah, I see...

Well, it may make a good debate topic, but I'm not sure if I would participate. I know that sounds kind of weird, but I'm generally more interested in sharing how I feel and think and discovering how other people feel and think, rather than trying to argue a point.

I dunno... if people were interested I might give it a shot, though. Not sure how you can actually debate something like this, but maybe that's just me. It seems to me like it's something that either you believe or you don't.