Topic awaiting preservation: Losing my religion...

I was wondering what's the difference between Christian and Roman Catholic(religion)?...so?

I'm a catholic...I do believe in g** but in different ways. I never go to church and I don't want to.

Roman Catholics are a branch from the Catholic tree which itself is a branch from the Christian tree.

But i suppose you get better answers in the Philosofy and other Sillyness section.
Bugs could probably anser a lot of questions.
He is almost the 'father/priest/reverend'* from the asylum i think


*cross out your choice

"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

Move this to the Philo forum please.

Moving....

:::krets.net:::

ok, any catholic people online - no offense, but this is how i see it:

catholicism is like christianity with a whole heap of (unnecessary) bells and whistles on it.

there are a number of ways in which this is the case:

sacraments
your average christian denomination has maybe 3 sacraments - things like baptism, lord's supper, and maybe another (profession of faith, marriage, etc).

catholics have over a dozen - which lends itself more towards a list of rites and rituals. this can also be seen in the architecture of the church: whilst many non-catho churches have all the stained glass and stuff, on the inside, it is relatively simple (often) - and many just look like a standard hall. Catho churches have all sorts of interesting things in their churches, candles, paintings, crucifixes, etc etc.

salvation
it seems that catholics have lost the simplicity of salvation.
whilst christian salvation, when analysed and fully explained, can be quite complex, the essential elements are very basic:

humankind has sinned, and thus cannot spend eternity with God - who requires perfection.
our punishment, therefore, is hell.
christ took our punishment - by dying, and going to hell, even though he had never sinned, and was in fact God himself.
by coming to life, christ shows that he has power over death - even our eternal death.
by believing in all this, we then take on this gift of salvation.

(i am trying to cover the basics - forgive me if my terminology is off, or if i miss essential points)

put most simply: if we confess with our mouth that jesus is lord, and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved.

now, whilst i believe that catholics would concur with these core truths, they also seem to add to them, with elements that do not seem biblical:

mary + the saints
why would we pray to them, when christ is our intecessor, and moreover, we also have the holy spirit praying for us?

the pope
where this concept of infallibility came from, i have no idea. no one is perfect, but christ himself. what's more, the bible is a complete document - to which nothing should be subtracted or added (resulting in serious consequence). as such, what on earth are the relevance of his 'perfect' statements? again, this entire concept baffles me.

forgiveness - christianity believe that the only human element of salvation is their faith (which, however, was still given from God). if you believe, all your sins - past, present, future - are forgiven, and nothing can separate you from Christ's love. Catholics have added to this - to be forgiven for a sin, penance is required, and if someone is dying, they have their 'last rites' - they are being forgiven for their sins, so that they have a 'clean slate' and can be heaven bound. This seems to assume that christ's death was not enough - and alarmingly, no catholic can ever be sure of their salvation!

And don't forget the girls in plaid skirts...

:::krets.net:::

plaid skirts?

Krets, it may be a bit disheartening for you to hear this... but I am 99% positive that that was NOT a church you went to.

                                   

Catholic School Girls Rule

I've never been to one.

quote:

---

ok, any catholic people online - no offense, but this is how i see it:

catholicism is like christianity with a whole heap of (unnecessary) bells and whistles on it.

there are a number of ways in which this is the case:

sacraments
your average christian denomination has maybe 3 sacraments - things like baptism, lord's supper, and maybe another (profession of faith, marriage, etc).

catholics have over a dozen - which lends itself more towards a list of rites and rituals. this can also be seen in the architecture of the church: whilst many non-catho churches have all the stained glass and stuff, on the inside, it is relatively simple (often) - and many just look like a standard hall. Catho churches have all sorts of interesting things in their churches, candles, paintings, crucifixes, etc etc.

salvation
it seems that catholics have lost the simplicity of salvation.
whilst christian salvation, when analysed and fully explained, can be quite complex, the essential elements are very basic:

humankind has sinned, and thus cannot spend eternity with God - who requires perfection.
our punishment, therefore, is hell.
christ took our punishment - by dying, and going to hell, even though he had never sinned, and was in fact God himself.
by coming to life, christ shows that he has power over death - even our eternal death.
by believing in all this, we then take on this gift of salvation.

(i am trying to cover the basics - forgive me if my terminology is off, or if i miss essential points)

put most simply: if we confess with our mouth that jesus is lord, and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved.

now, whilst i believe that catholics would concur with these core truths, they also seem to add to them, with elements that do not seem biblical:

mary + the saints
why would we pray to them, when christ is our intecessor, and moreover, we also have the holy spirit praying for us?

the pope
where this concept of infallibility came from, i have no idea. no one is perfect, but christ himself. what's more, the bible is a complete document - to which nothing should be subtracted or added (resulting in serious consequence). as such, what on earth are the relevance of his 'perfect' statements? again, this entire concept baffles me.

forgiveness - christianity believe that the only human element of salvation is their faith (which, however, was still given from God). if you believe, all your sins - past, present, future - are forgiven, and nothing can separate you from Christ's love. Catholics have added to this - to be forgiven for a sin, penance is required, and if someone is dying, they have their 'last rites' - they are being forgiven for their sins, so that they have a 'clean slate' and can be heaven bound. This seems to assume that christ's death was not enough - and alarmingly, no catholic can ever be sure of their salvation!

---

we have everything that you've stated above...and I still don't understand what's the difference between 'em.

I probably shouldn't mention this, as it is potentially embarrassing, but I suppose I can't really hurt my image here any more than I already have...

I briefly dated a nice Catholic girl when I was at university. Back then cheesy people (like myself and this girl) still made each other mixed tapes, and we weren't ones to break with tradition. Our tastes in music were a bit different, and despite the fact that there was practicaly a canon of sappy love songs for mixed tapes back then, our tapes only contained one song in common. That song was Billy Joel's "Only the Good Die Young." I remember getting a big grin on my face when I saw that on her tape (you'll know why if you know the song), and I still chuckle to think about it.

You know, finding new ways to shame myself here has become something of a personal challenge...

Yannah: Apologies if I haven't contributed much to the discussion at hand. It is a good question, and reitsma gave a very good answer. Not sure if seconding someone else's answer really counts as a contribution, but that's life, I guess.

Yannah - in that list you will find, if you read more carefully, that Reitsma is pointing out the differences line by line.

Most of the things he lists there are exclusive to catholicism, and have little or nothing to do with christianity.




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-04-2003).]

reitsma, nice job overall, you hit just about everything. the only other largely differing concept in catholicism is purgatory, the idea that there's this place that's not heaven and not hell but sort of a waiting place till you make the cut to get into heaven. the catholic argument i've heard for this is pulling a single verse very out of context to back it up, i believe its also covered in the catholic bible (which has a handful of books added).

yannah, what reitsma said covers a lot and if you read carefully he does state the major differences. what it all comes down to is this: the bible (and protestant christanity) state that we are saved by grace, that a decision to accept christ as a personal savior is the only thing we have to "do" to get to heaven. things like good works, a change in our attitudes and habits, etc., are by-products of that decision. catholics believe that you are saved by grace, but also by works, that you have to do certain things (be confirmed, go to confession, etc.) to be saved. its all about religion, the rules man has created, rather than the things God has said. it seems to sort of miss the forest for the trees so to speak, God has laid things out very simply in scriptute and catholocism adds a bunch of extra rules and regulations in. as a whole i've found many catholics seem to view their faith as a duty rather than a part of their lives, they go to church on sundays because they're supposed to and say their grace and go to confession once a year and they're good. accepting christ should be a life-changing event, but many catholics get lost in the religion and the formality of being catholic and are more worried about being catholic then getting close to God.

that being said, there are certainly catholics who "get it" and have a real relationship with God and know Christ as their savior. the format of the catholic church just seems to make that a challenge.

i've also never quite understood the whole non-practicing catholic thing, people seem to label themselves in some odd inactive way because of what their parents believed. i mean, i guess i'm a non-practicing muslim? also a non-practicing buddist i suppose. whatever you believe, you need to believe it because you CHOOSE to believe it and not because someone told you to. if you consider yourself catholic but don't go to church, don't want to, and bellieve in God in different ways than they do...umm, think there might be something better for you to be than catholic?

and just fyi, i grew up catholic, spent 23-odd years going to catholic church, got baptized, confirmed, the whole nine yards so i'm speaking from firsthand experience. after i graduated from college i went to some non-denominational bible studies, found out what the bible really says, and accepted christ into my life in a real and powerful way. since then i've seen God do some amazing things in my life and i'm a totally different person. i can't even compare that being "religious" and doing things because you have to do them while seeing God do nothing in your life. if i had to do that and saw no result from it then i wouldn't really see the point...

chris

If i recall correct the catholic monks where the first persons who had a good way to brew beer.
Also catholicm i s know for it's sponge effect. It takes over local traditions and holidays puts a little caholic sauce ocer it and integrate them into the catholicism. And due to the hierarchical organization it was a mighty powerblock for ages. And still when the pope talks to world leaders (directly or indirect) it's in the news.
I think it is the catholics who made christianity acceptable in the world but then people start thinking for themselves and saw the flaws off the religion and start churches by them selves.
Catholics especially the Romans enjoy god and christ and celebrate his existence where other christan branches are a bit sober and believe in god the catholics celebrate more. It are the social aspects who diver from the other christan churches. Furthermore the catholics have a very long political history.

Conclusion: Catholicism is christianity with added politics, strong social structures and a good adaptibility.
it also is not pure, not very strict (anymore) and hypocritical at times.
I also grew up as a good catholic boy but i don't join the church anymore.


"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

Hmmm...beer. Depends, on what type of beer - Pils was Pilsner Urquell - some 600+ years old...I'm not sure about lager beer...and weizen (wheat) beer is Weihenstephan - almost 1000 years, now...and still going...

Don't know what that has to do with Catholic Monks, though...

Sorry about butting in...I love beer.

Let me clarify on the beer issue -

"lager" as we know it was first brewed in the 1400's (in germany of course).

Beer has existed for as long as human civilization itself has, and infact it is argued that growing barley to brew beer was a strong contributing factor in forming non-nomadic settlements.

The first written documents pertaining to the brewing of beer date back to 6000 bc, making the Sumerians and the Egyptians the 1st to have 'good ways' to make beer.

Trappist monks have, however, perfected the proccess and were among the most prominent brewers/sellers of beer from around the 1200's through about the 1600s or so.

=)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-04-2003).]

Many of the "oddities" of Catholicism arose from pagan influence as Christians worked to convert the numerous sects across Europe.

For example, many pagan deities were female and those believers had a hard time accepting a male god. It was much easier for them to identify with Mary, the mother of Christ. That's why she now plays such a major role in the Catholic religion.

The pagan influence is also the reason we celebrate the birth of Jesus near the winter solstice.

Not to offend anyone, but I see Catholicism as a highly bastardized form of Christianity that has more to do with following religious rituals that separate its believers from God than actually communing spiritually with Him.

Ah, Catholicism and beer--the perfect combination. OK, well, maybe minus the Catholicism.

Hey protestants/christians has alot of stupid rules too....(no offens here just mine oppinion)

liike mormons they prohibit to drink coffe and others prohibit to dance and so on bla bla bla....catcholic do have alot of rules and all those bla bla...but they dont force you to do it...they teach you but they never force you

Wes - a point which I have stressed many times.

Christianity in general is really a conglomerate of various pagan rituals. Obviously different sects will incorporate them to varying degrees.

(and suho - I haven't met many catholics personally who weren't also alcoholics )



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-04-2003).]

good points wes, that's where we derive a lot of traditions surrounding easter and other holidays as well.

and, um, ruski, not quite sure where you're getting your info but you're a bit off. there are some southern baptists that are against the whole dancing thing but that's a rather select group, and i have no idea where you got the coffee thing. i'm a starbucks regular

and thanks for the beer history guys, good stuff

chris

Fig, Ruski was referring to Mormons being against consuming caffeine. Strict Hindus are none to happy about it either

I've had lots of friendly debates with Catholic friends and I learned a whole lot in the process. If I had to narrow it all down to a nutshell, I would say that I consider authority to come from scripture alone or Sola Scriptura whereas Roman Catholics listen to scripture *and* the Magisterium.

gotcha bugs, thanks. i knew there was some good reason i wouldn't make it as a mormon

i'd say you're pretty dead on with that observation, tho from my experience its much more only listening to the papal authority as opposed to scripture. i knew very few catholics who really investigated their faith individually, most just took things at face value on sunday mornings and never explored it any further than that. the flip side of that is that its not encouraged, the church has the "correct" interpretation of scripture and if you don't agree with that, well, you're out of luck.

chris

Yup about dancing! I go to christian school and many people/fanatics think its bad to dance with a gilr since they think its like commiting sexual act or whatever... I am kinda getting real tired of religeon stuff...trying to figure out which one to fallow so I came uo with this conclusion:

quote:

---

Though there are many paths
At the foot of the mountain
All those who reach the top
See the same moon.

---

just because the small subculture of christians that you happen to be exposed to think that dancing is evil doesn't mean that's what the majority believes. you used the word "fanatics" yourself, they certainly don't represent the mainstream.

and if you're getting tired of "religion" then you're starting to get it christianity isn't about religion, its about the relationship. religion is man's rules and regulations that he's put together in his best attempt to connect with God, which results in this very inactive God that people seem to complacently believe in. the thing is, christianity is actually about an active God who takes a role in your life when you seek Him out. as i said earlier, i personally don't see the point in following a God who doesn't ever do anything in my life, that's why i'm a lot happier now.

chris

I really dont know who are you christian or something else and how do you fallow or accept the religeons...please tell me I would like to know

I understand what Reitsma had said.
There are no much difference between the two religion...Sure, we have that colored glass on churches walls...everything that he stated.

Ruski: I suggest you do research into a couple (or more) religions, and decide from there which you want to believe in. if you don't find one you like, then I wouldn't force yourself into one. Ya know? trying to fit the square peg in the circle hole. Also, its always good to have a personal talk with people, like some of your friends that are members of different religions ect.

Whoever asked what the difference between Catholics and Christians was;

I know Catholics focus quite a bit on the fact that mary was a virgin, when she had her child. Also, I know Catholicism is steeped in tradition that has been performed for hundreds of years (not nessicarily always PART of the Catholic Faith, catholic faith does have a "sponge effect"). Christianity focuses more on the teachings of Jesus, and how to enter heaven, while Catholicism, focuses on those, and everything else. And just somthing I've noticed, Catholic's can tend to loose the true meaning of what the bible says. the bible states that <i>ALL</i> men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god, and the Catholic faith directly defies that, by stating that the pope is infalliable. Anyways, excuse the rant.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

Yes I have done a research on alot of religeons...Atheism, Muslim, Buddish, Hindu and few more.....I dont think so I will need any of them....I will stay catholic as long as I live with my mom....when my time comes I think I will be open to all of them, I dont want to be in a certain group and fallow their lists of dos and donts...thats its for now

ruski, you've asked kind of a big question, so i'll try to be both honest and open-minded here...

being catholic, you're probably very caught up in the "rules and regulations" aspect of things, which is really not what its all about. you do this because the church says so and that's how it is. you mentioned in your other thread that you were asking questions and your teachers saw that as a negative thing, and i totally disagree. there's nothing wrong with doubting or having questions, it simply shows you're trying to grow in your faith and not taking things at face value. asking questions is how we learn, cutting off those questions and saying that asking them is bad is about the worst possible thing you can do IMO, especially for a younger person. so you shouldn't feel the least bad about asking, you might just find some better people to ask.

you also mentioned that you're open-minded and have researched other faiths, etc., and i think that's awesome, there's no reason at all not to have knowledge of what's out there. from a christian perspective, is something like buddhism bad? not necessarily in itself, but can you be a christian and a buddist? well, if you're following another faith are you following God entirely? my answer would be no. as far as the zodiac being "bad", why do you think it would be? possibly because it was derived from a system of spiritual worship that wasn't about God, but worshipped other gods and spirits? if you believe in God in the sense that He's the one true God (which your beliefs would seem to indicate), then your testing should involve asking a question something like "is this something that involves following or worshipping or believing in another god?"

as for "how" to follow God in a true christian sense that's a good question. and since you asked about me, i grew up catholic for 23 or so years and am now a non-denominational christian. the biggest thing i've learned is that it is NOT about religion, or rules, or anything of the sort. nowhere in the bible does it say you have to follow God and do this and this and this and then you'll get to heaven. scripture clearly says that its by grace alone we're saved; in other words, we can't be saved by our own actions (which in my book includes certain sacraments or ceremonies or praying with a certain person or whatever).

the big thing the catholic church seems to miss, aside from the "rules" aspect, is that the power of God just isn't often present and the personal aspect of God is missed on. its too formal and structured and rigid, during mass you end up just saying words and repeating them rather than praying. i don't know where you're at personally or what specifically you believe, but i can give you two things to do/think on that may help. the first is to really evaluate where you're at and decide if you've accepted and believe in Christ as your savior. i don't care if you've been confirmed or baptized or whatever, but have you made a personal decision to yourself, do you realize that you aren't perfect, do sin and need to change, and need God's help to do that? because its in that personal acceptance that the power comes in, and if you're not there try just praying about it and asking for that. the second thing is just to ask God to work in your life and show you He's real. it may not happen instantly, or overnight, but if you're seeking that out and really wanting to see it i promise you will.

hope that helps, feel free to drop me an e-mail if you've got other questions or whatever.

chris

I would just like to add that "atheism" is by definition *not* a religion.

It is precisely the absence of religion.

atheist people don't believe in god.(yes you're right it's not a religion)

Just because they don't believe in God, doesn't mean that they couldn't have a Religion...there are 'religions' without God, after all...

But true, a 'pure' Athiest has no religion...though I really doubt that there are any people that don't believe in something...whether it is 'There ain't nothing after Death, so live your life now' to 'Aliens were responsible for Human life'...

Atheists in the thru meaning off the word believe in nothing.
I am not saying the don't believe, that would be wrong they actually believe in nothing.
I would say atheism is a relgion, only they call god 'nothing' and nothing will not do anything, not for you not for the world and not for it's self.


2c

"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

You are missing the point DL made, Atheism is the absence of religion. They dont gather at mass, they dont have any rituals, there is nothing resembling a religion about it.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

okay, where supposed to talk about my question here about catholics and christians here.

Yannah, hasn't your question been answered? Didn't you have to take some classes when you were confirmed? I'm wondering whether you have a good understanding of your own church's teachings.

Rinswind - nope, you've got it completely wrong.

Break it down - 'theism' - belief in a god or gods.

a - theism - the lack thereof.

In the same manner in which 'asexual' reproduction is reproduction not requiring sexual activity.

It's THAT simple. There is no athiest manifesto, no creed.

Ateists don't believe in "nothing" as though nothing were a god.

Athiesm, by definition, means non-belief in dieties.

*Period*

Nothing more.


{{edit - Yannah, on top of what bugimus said (about your question already being answered), you need to understand that this is a discussion forum. On topic often leads to many others. Get used to it =)

}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-07-2003).]

I don't go to church. Another one is I hate going to church.

Yannah! Why do you ask questions if you don't care about getting the answers??????

If you don't even know what you believe then why do you ask about the difference between Roman Catholicism and other Christian traditions?

I'm just curious about my own religion and christian's differences that's all.

is your own religion really your own if you don't like it, don't follow it, and don't really know much about it?

chris

Yannah, first off, your question has been awnsered thouroughly. I don't know what someone else could tell you that would FURTHER clear up the differences between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity for you. However, I do wonder why in the hell you're asking us to define your religion? How can you be committed to a faith and at the same time be completely clueless as to what that faith is all about? Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't goto church and hate the tought of it. (The Irony here should be evident to everyone else reading this post, but I thought Yannah might need it pointed out, so I'm pointing it out.) If it was me however, and I wanted to know more about Christianity, the first place I'd start my queries would BE in church.

I guess what I'm really trying to say here is, Stop being an ignorant waste of our time, and DON'T tell us what we can and can't talk about.

Well, I don't beleive she ever said anything about being *committed* to her religion.

Being a teenager, I would assume she has been rasied as a catholic, and it's hard to get answeres about catholicism when you're raised catholic (as has been mentioned, the catholic church likes to discourage inquisitiveness)

Now, I don't believe the Catholics discourage doubt or inquistiviness. Where did you get that?
They encourage it. Its what helps faith grow.

Well, the history of the church definitely has periods where doubt wasn't handled too well. I suspect that comes from a little thing called the Inquisition. I agree with you that lately your church has been pretty good on that issue.

And that is not to say that other churches haven't had their abuses. The Reformation wasn't exactly a walk in the park for Catholics.

Ok. If your referring to the current priesthood abuse thing. It was an evil within the church, but does not represent the whole church. Those guys should have never been priest. It was good it came to light. Catholics see it as a cleansing of the church to make it better and stronger. A few bad apples, will not make the institution of the Catholic church fall. In fact, our history is full of scandel. And its usually judged on humans, not the faith that Catholic church stands on. It will be around for another 1000 years.

I wasn't talking about the recent sex scandal. I was referring to the Spanish Inquisition.

And what about the Genecide practiced not only against my people, but most natives of lands 'visited' by the Church?


WebShaman

"a few bad apples"?

And the church sees this as a "cleansing" now?

Then why did the church try so hard to cover it up so long rather than dealing with it initially? And why aren't the priests being de-frocked?

Not to mention things like the spansih inquisition which bugs has brought up...



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-10-2003).]

no one expects the inquisition!

sorry, had to do it...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

I get it now...Christians are the people of Catholic, which is the religion.

smacks forehead

I just don't know what to say...

Fig: Hate to burst your bubble, but isn't it: "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition"?

doh...a blown opportunity. correct you are suho my good man, that's what i get for not sleeping

yannah...*sigh*...no, you're not getting it, sorry. try re-reading what reitsma wrote near the top of the thread. he clearly mentions what the general christian population believes vs what the catholic church thinks and does. they're clearly defined in those paragraphs as two different things.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

to Yannah:

there are many people who label themselves as "christian". "catholic" is just a group of people claiming to be "christian" who label themselves with the name "catholic" because of differences in doctrine. a doctrine is basically a rule or law. "catholics" have a different interpretation of the "rules" than "protestants" or "muslims" or whatever label a certain group choose to call themselves. a TRUE "christian" is not under the "law" because the "rules" cannot "save" your "soul". that part is entirely up to God himself. you can either accept it or NOT. simple.

as far as going to "church" is concerned, there are more people than you might imagine that are disillusioned with the "church" and do not go to "church" for just that reason; that there are so many interpretations. this is why it is so important that you must constantly question your own "faith" in whatever you believe in. seek and you will find.
whatever you do, do it with all your heart.

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 03-11-2003).]

Fig, I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up! It's all I could think about when I was typing my reply last night. Now you had better confess before I make you sit in the comfy chair!!!

I am one off those people ^^^^^^.

(sorry for not adding something useful)

"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

I think the Catholic Church tends to view any Christian group that split with the Church after Martin Luther to be a Protestant church and we Catholics were never raised to treat such matters lightly as this joke shows:

A girl walks in to see the Mother Superior at convent school and says:

"Mother Superior I think when I leave I want to be a prostitute".

The Mother Superior faints and falls on the floor. When she picks herself up she asks the girl to repeat herself and she says:

"I think that when I leave I want to be a prostitute".

To which the Mother Superior replied:

"Oh thank God - I thought you said Protestant!!"

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

do i get a cup of coffee at eleven?

chris


KAIROSinteractive

the protestants are not the only ones who've broken from the roman church. the greek orthodox, russian orthodox, armenian orthodox (and a few others which i don't remember at the moment) broke away, because they see the roman church as having strayed too far from what a truly christian church is/should be.

I think that mentality is very much the normal roman mentality - once they've begun to do something, they are officially the first to have ever done it...regardless of what the reality may be.

In this manner, Rome has borrowed many many things from many cultures, and still somehow managed to convince itself that it was all their idea.

Well you guys forget, you give into rome all the time. You go by their calender & celebrating easter, christmas on rome calender too, You recgoinize St Valentines Day(Real Saint), St. Patricks Day( Catholic Bishop), Hollows Eve(All Souls Holy Day). Even Santa is in remembrance of St. Nicholas, a Catholic Bishop.

sorry?
but that's what they said in tokyoforums.com.

Ah yes, but *you* forget jade, that "Eastre" the germanic deity of spring who visits the earth in the form of a rabbit at - hey! right around easter time! - is not a roman concept.

Christmas, where we honor the sacred evergreen tree that signifies an immortal deity, at the time of the winter solstice, is not a roman tradtition.

St Patrick did a great deal that had little to do with rome.

St Valentine, as you may recall, was a christian who was murdered by the romans for breaking their editcs.

Which of course brings us to the main point: Christianity was not begun in rome!.

Catholicism was *not* the original form of christianity!

Rome used to slaughter christians.

So your statements only further elucidate my point Jade.

Oh, and - the roman calendar? You mean the one julius ceasar had an alexandrian astronomer create? Or the slightly correcte gregorian calendar?

Either way, they are both bastardized versions of the Egyptian calendar.

Again: rome taking someone else's idea and stating it as their own.


{edit - spelling and clarification}





[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-12-2003).]

i was thinking the same thing DL. jade, you would recognize that a large portion of what you typed (if not all, tho i'd have to do a bit of research on a few of them) are things that catholocism adopted in some way from the pagan culture when constantine was in charge, correct?

yannah, i glanced thru the answers you got there. half of them make no sense, and a few actually aren't too far off but still have some issues. is there any reason you think that the answers you got there would be more informed than those of folks here? because checking out the level of discussion in general there i'd think we're a bit better informed here on religious issues.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Excuse me. We are talking about Roman Catholicism. Not the Roman Empire.

DL-44

Go read up on who started Roman Catholicism in a history book. A secular history book. It was started by Jesus Christ himself.

so....no responses to my points, just 'go read more pro-catholic propaganda'???

And uh - thank you for informing me of what I meant when I said 'roman'.

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-12-2003).]

DL-44
I am sensing hostiltity.

And just so you will know Constantine gave Christians freedom to practice their faith. He stopped persecuting them. He only gave them a new name "Catholic". In the beginning the faith was called "the way", then christianity.

I will leave someone else to respond to your other statements.

Peace

i'm familiar with constantine, thanks
so are you denying that the traditions mentioned above were adopted into the church from pagan tradition? as far as leaving that for someone else to answer, you're the one fielding the catholic questions here as i understand it

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Hostility? No.

Annoyance? Yes.

Why?

I make a statement regrading what I percieve as the historical roman mindset. You make some points in an attempt to counter the statement. I respond with my thoughts on your points. You then tell me that we are discussing x and not y when x or y were not part of the issue, and tell to read secular history.

That is quite annoying.

Now you will leave someone else to explain your own statements.

So, I really have a hard time seeing what point there is in joining a discussion if you're not willing to discuss the points that you yourself bring up.

quote:

---

Go read up on who started Roman Catholicism in a history book. A secular history book. It was started by Jesus Christ himself.

---

Wait just a second there. I don't think that Jesus Christ started Roman Catholicism as you know it today or as it was in 300AD. The church as it was set up by the Apostles bore little resemblance to the church we begin to see approaching the time of Constantine's conversion.

It has been argued that worst thing that could have happened was Rome to make Xianity the official religion because it became hopelessly embroiled in politics and empire as opposed to focusing on service and charity. Perhaps it was the only way given the circumstances but it's hard to say now that history has been written.

No, this statement

quote:

---

It was started by Jesus Christ himself.

--Jade

---

is just not true...Jesus Christ died, remember? He 'started' nothing, actually, he teached...it was only after his death, that things got 'started'...thus, the status of Martyr. Now, there were people that followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, that were called christians, at the time...'followers of christ'. But they were not catholics. That came much later, actually.

xmas a catholic holiday? only by adoption. because no one knew when jesus was born, when paul (saul) and the priests of the mysteries of mythras got together - they designated the date of the great festival of mythras (december 25th) as the birthday of jesus!

since mythras was of the tradition of the dying god, adoption of jesus himself was easy - he became "the word made flesh" (the word being the the doctrine of the mysteries), mythras was said to have been reborn as jesus! proof of the verity of the mysteries!

so you see, the roman church is just that, the roman church.

Gosh, I am getting you guys all roused up. Am I sheep among wolves? So many reponses.

Thats Ok. I like adversity and confrontation.

But if you guys don't want me to stick around, I will go away.

You are obviously missing the point entirely jade.

This isn't about 'adverstity and confrontation' though you are obviously attempting to push it that way.

This is about one simple thing: if you bring a topic to the table, be prepared to discuss it.

So, I see two options - make your case, or stop bringing up issues that you are not prepared to discuss.

I'm still waiting for any sort of response to my posts....

Jade, instead of mentioning how many responses you're getting why don't you actually reply to the responses? Many people are bringing up valid points but you're just ignoring them. You're coming off as quite stubborn actually. If you want to debate something you have to have an open mind and accept criticisms. When you give a point which is later [bold]proven[/bold] incorrect, it is much better if you admit your mistake instead of ignoring it or confusing the correction with 'hostility'

and Yannah... do you actually read the forums or just post random comments?

quote:

---

Christianity was not begun in rome!.

---

I know, it begun in Spain, am I right?
Catholic began in Vatican City, Rome right?

quote:

---

It was started by Jesus Christ himself.

--Jade
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is just not true...Jesus Christ died, remember? He 'started' nothing, actually, he teached...it was only after his death, that things got 'started'...thus, the status of Martyr. Now, there were people that followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, that were called christians, at the time...'followers of christ'. But they were not catholics. That came much later, actually.

---

You're right there Web, even though I don't go to church and don't read the holy bible which is the lectionary, I still know who and who didn't start this religion
I'm attending some confirmation lessons every monday at their local church here in St. Mark.and

quote:

---

Yannah... do you actually read the forums or just post random comments?

---

I do read some posts that I think would add to my knowledge.



[This message has been edited by Yannah (edited 03-12-2003).]

quote:

---

I do read some posts that I think would add to my knowledge.

---

thats why you post dumb comments without knowing what we are talking about.
{{said the pot to the kettle}}

[edit]spelling[/edit]




[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 03-12-2003).]

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-13-2003).]

Yannah, I am *very* glad to hear you are taking some confirmation classes. You should learn a lot of good stuff in them. You will be able to understand so much better the differences between different Christian traditions when you have a better understanding of your own church's teachings.

So does this mean that you are not confirmed yet? Or are you just taking the classes again?

no, I'm not yet confirmed...because I didn't have time to go before.

spain?

DL: lol my thoughts exactly!

I never said the Catholic church started in Rome. It is represented there. The Holy Spirt was breathed into the church in the upper room at Penetcost by the Holy Spirit. Can we agree on this? I will take Roman out of and just call it the Catholic Church since it is a universal church.

Only two times did God breathe life;
the first time into the creation of man
the second time he breathed the spirit into the church
(a spiritual & second creation)

I wonder what an encyclopedia says who the founder of the catholic church is.

"I never said the Catholic church started in Rome. It is represented there."

i'm assuming you mean represented there as meaning they are jesus' rep on earth?

"The Holy Spirt was breathed into the church in the upper room at Penetcost by the Holy Spirit. Can we agree on this?"

nope, that is catholic dogma and not all catholics (let alone xians) believe that

"I will take Roman out of and just call it the Catholic Church since it is a universal church."

can't do that jade, there is also a Greek Catholic Church.. unless you choose to speak for all catholic branches?

"Only two times did God breathe life;
the first time into the creation of man
the second time he breathed the spirit into the church
(a spiritual & second creation)"

more catholic teachings and on a realistic level, untrue. if he breathed life into adam.. how did eve receive life? nitpick possibly, but still..

I wonder what an encyclopedia says who the founder of the catholic church is.

this site partially agrees with your assertions. not having an encyclopoedia handy, i used google. if you scroll down and read the first two notes, you'll see that just as on this forum, there is division of opinion out there amongst theologians. in fact bugimus or fig shared some info with you on this last subject.

[edit- clarify

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 03-13-2003).]

VR.

I don't agree with anything you posted.

For one, the breathed life verses are in scripure. Not catholic dogma the church councils made up.

The Russian and Greek churchs are still considered catholic to the Roman church. They are in a state of schism. Like we are in disagreement but eventually will agree in time.

Were you the one who said you were catholic too???
Seems like there is a lot of misreprentation on what catholicism or what people precieve it to be.

Over thousands of protestants out there thinking what the catholic church really is, only about 100 really know in my estimation figurativly speaking.

Jade, can you tell us where in the scripture it says the Holy Spirit breathed life into the Catholic Church?

yeah tell us, so I could learn something out of the book!

If you can, can you look it up in scripture. It should be in acts if you want to check the web. I just don't want to be running to my bible all the time to prove my statements. And I know you guys are knowlegable in scripture. Sorry.

On what I know or recollect is this:
All the apostles met in the church is Esphesus along with other followers and the virgin mary. The Holy spirit descended upon the congretation and gave them the holy spirit and all the gifts that go with it, healing, speaking in tounges, phophecy, etc. The church which considers herself still christians and catholic considers this to be the birth of its church when the holy spirit was breathed into it.

I also wanted to say before I go out of town that

The catholic church (meaning universal) is made up of three entities.
Like the trinity.

The magisterium (divine ruling body)
The holy scriptures (divine reading)
The traditions she enspouses (handed down history)

All are equally divinely instituted. One is not more important
than the other. Without the other they cannot stand. They are
equal in importance to the whole church.

Its like a body. If an arm is missing, Is it complete. No.
If two arms are missing, does it still stand. Yes. but still
incomplete.
The body is like injured and not whole without its arms.

Just like the church she need all three parts to stand.

For all of you who are interested in the actual beginning of the Christian Church according to Luke's record of what happened, please read

the second chapter of the book of Acts

It's not that long and perhaps we can clear up some of the misconceptions about it.

lol. I'll try next time Bug!

ooh, yeah.

1. bugs, you rock.
2. now that's what i call a solid argument.
3. biblegateway definitely rocks. i'm learning to love that site.

yeah.

now that's what I call funny...

What's funny?

the funny is that Yannah started this thread?!

*blows kisses toYannah*

lol...
Bug, I was referring to Reitsma's post not yours. I can't do that!

Thanks outcdyr, for the kisses.

[This message has been edited by Yannah (edited 03-20-2003).]