Topic awaiting preservation: catholics and other christians (Page 3 of 4)

quote:

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Thats like saying if a father is sexually abusing his own child so are all his brothers abusing their own children as well

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No, not at all.

However, if a father sexually abuses his child, and his brothers tell the child to keep their mouth shut, and then help the father move to a different town so he can molest other people's children, and make sure nobody finds out about it, then the brothers are just as guilty as the father.

=)

I find it funny that you condemn mobrul for believeing so passionately in his philosophy, saying that it won't be what he thinks about on his death bed...yet you do exactly the same.

You just call your philosophy "religion" and proclaim it to be the only acceptable one.

He, on the other hand, reserves plenty of room for your philosophy to exist along with his...

I also look at the worth of my life based on the good that I have done, but I don't require papal approval for the judgement of my deeds.

I also must stress once again, that someone going to confession - while it may satisfy the church - is not absolved of the personal responsibility of his actions.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-27-2003).]

DL

If your basing your opinions and thats all they are on a select few, that means you have tunnel vision. You can't see beyond the perimeters. You select to see what you want to see because your bias keeps you there.

I was not critizing morbrul, (plus I am sure he can speak for himself). I was merely saying its seemed that his liberalism was his passion.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 03-27-2003).]

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Your generalizing & your also guilty of judging the behavior of billions on a select few.

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Okay, then by your own logic, I'm assuming you leave your keys in your unlocked car and don't lock your doors at night. After all, to do so to avoid theft or assault, you would be guilty of judging the behavior of billions on a select few.

So you see, generalizing isn't always the terrible thing you make it out to be...

I try to give individuals (for example, you) the benefit of the doubt, but I reserve the right to be suspicious of organizations, in whose shadowy depths humanity's worst impulses usually end up with free reign.

BTW, Jade keeps claiming 'billions', but is that accurate? Is there a tally of the numbers of Catholics (and other religions, actually)?

[Edit: can't type today]

[This message has been edited by Wangenstein (edited 03-27-2003).]

Wangenstine

I don't understand how your point of logic applies to sexaul abuse here??? Please enlighten me.

Your right. I stand corrected. Its a billion and something not billions.

Jade - You seem to ride a roller coaster of intellect, I swear.

Wangenstein was merely pointing out that you probably lock your doors and do reasonable things to protect yourself from theft even though you know that not everyone steals. You are judging/generalizing against the whole because you can't separate the good from the bad at a glance (the flip side of "You can't judge a book by it's cover").

Just as you don't know who steals and who doesn't, and therefore protect yourself from the possibility, we can't distinguish between those of the cloth who do or don't abuse children. We have to be careful in establishing our trust in those of the cloth now because of the actions of a few of them until they have proven themselves to be worthy of that trust.

{EDIT}TYPO{/EDIT}
{EDIT2}Wangenstein, here is a link that ranks by volume (people, not loudmouths) some of the major religions.{/EDIT2}

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 03-27-2003).]

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 03-27-2003).]

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 03-27-2003).]

On the inside that logic doesnt apply. On the outside looking in I would guess it would be for most. Most Catholics feel priest don't have to prove themselves after the scandal. We pray for them constantly for God to give them strength.

Let me just say *again* that the priest/molestation issue was simply an EXAMPLE.

Since you seem to want to latch onto that one issue though, I feel the need to continue explaining my end of it as well.

quote:

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Catholics feel priest don't have to prove themselves

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And that is *precisely* why these things have been allowed to happen. And that is why these things have been allowed to be covered up. And that is why these priests are still priests after such wretched behaviour.

I'll take this a step further actually, and say that not only is the order itself to blame, so is much of the congregation.

These are the types of things that blind faith allows to happen.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-28-2003).]

DL

I know you want to continue to be thorn on my side,
but it doesn't hurt me and I know you wouldn't worry
anyway.

You brought up the subject again.

Plus liberalism & catholicism will always butt heads.
If we are talking about rights here. What about the right
to be born?

Jade, please understand that DL is trying to have a conversation with you. He's a thorn in *everyone's* side around here and that is why we love him so much. Don't interpret his honesty as an attack. Just try to stick to the facts of the discussion. I'm not seeing that you are really considering his points and that is why your replies seem to avoid what he's saying. I, for one, would learn far more about your Church and your faith in it by hearing you respond directly to his questions and opinions.

I have so much more to say and so little time today.

heh.

ok then.

Officially done with this conversation. I have tried many times to actually get answers of some sort from you, and to figure out what drives your beliefs.

I can see, as I pointed out before, that you are either unable or unwilling to answer the questions and statements I put forth.

I'm not surprised, but you assured of the catholic faith's encouragement of inquisitiveness, so I asked away.

Apparently that inquisitiveness is very limited in scope - as you demonstrate very well.

As I said, blind faith is what allows such travesty to happen. I hope to hell you're comfortable with that.

jamie: hopefully, you awknowledge that the (far too numerous, even if there are only a few) lowlifes in high position in the catholic religion are poor representatives of their faith - by both giving the faith a bad name, and doing a terrible job of portraying how a follower should act.

perhaps this could be applied on a much smaller scale to other representatives of this religion.



not trying to give praise to this particular brand of christianity, just trying to give it a chance - so few people seem to want to do that. (by this, i mean the advocates, not the cynics)

edit: oh, and a message for
jade: next time you enter into a debate on such topics, i encourage you to consider this:
you are wrong, you are close-minded, you are ignorant - in the eyes of your opponent. There is nothing wrong with being firm in your beliefs, but you must concede that these beliefs are not shared by those you talk with. Moreover, you cannot simply give them your beliefs, and assume this will suffice, for from their perspective, your ignorance and close-mindedness remain.

to have any chance of convincing them in the merit of your beliefs, you must convince them that you respect their views, have listened to and considered their argument, and are providing a well-educated, yet personal response.




[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 03-28-2003).]

Bugs you really are something. Once, why couldn't you come to my defense. I wasn't serious anyway and you can love him all you want. I don't really think he wants my love anyway.

What haven't I answered considering his constant baggering. How can I change his atheistic beliefs. I am just presenting what catholics believe. If anyone wants to disagree, its their right. Do you seek delight in his way of thinking to rationlize God out of his life to me.

Well, the truth is that I an not the close-minded one around here in that I believe where God is, everything and anything is possible and that I don't need a rational or scientific approach to life to determine an idea. Science and religion do work together in a harmony only because God is the author of science. And I think no one can prove God isn't. Oh well, I am out for awhile to Florida.

Dang it, I really was looking forward to an explanation on the first war, angels, and the free will question.

*sigh*

Oh well, at least it's been a real eye-opener, concerning the Catholic faith...

Thanks to DL, Bugs, and Morbul for the very interesting posts. Sorry to see DL going...I was really interested in the answers to his questions, as well...

WE want Angels!

*starts chant*

Um, OK... I've stayed out of this thread on purpose, but I decided to give it a read today. It has been... disturbing, to say the least. What I am seeing is people just not connecting...

jade: some comments, if you don't mind.

quote:

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Once, why couldn't you come to my defense.

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You still see everything as an attack on you, don't you? Let me assure you, nobody here has attacked you. They have asked for the reasoning behind your faith, that is all. Although you may not yet realize what kind of place the Asylum is, people here don't usually let other people get away without backing up their statements.

You have said time and time again that you are "just presenting what catholics believe." Fine. Is this what you believe as well? If so, why do you hesitate to give rational reasons for your faith? While you may be loathe to quote Scripture here, I am not, and I think Paul's advice to the Thessalonians to "test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil" (I Thes. 5:21-22) is relevant here. What does this verse mean to you? To me, it means that we accept nothing at face value (no matter how many hundred of years of tradition it may bring with it), but test everything against the Word of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, rejecting that which fails the test and holding to that which passes.

Have you tested your faith? Have you tested everything that you hold dear? If so, why are you hesitant to share with us what you have found? If not, how can you call this true faith?

You say that you "don't need a rational or scientific approach to life to determine an idea." What sort of approach would you consider the one that Paul advocates? It seems to me to be both rational and scientific.

quote:

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How can I change his atheistic beliefs.

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Forgive me, but this statement is wrong on so many levels. First of all, this "dicussion" is not about changing anyone's beliefs. The point is to have an open exchange of ideas, and I don't understand why you are afraid to engage in such an exchange. True, the people here tend to play hardball, but if you are genuine and sincere you will grow from the experience. My faith has been challenged many times in this very forum. By that I don't mean that someone has attacked me, but that what people have said has made me think long and hard about what exactly I believe and why. And I am very grateful to everyone here for giving me the opportunity to grow.

Secondly, who said you were supposed to change anyone's beliefs? You know your Bible--who is it that moves the hearts of men? There is nothing that we can do or say to "convert" anyone to Christianity unless the Holy Spirit works in their heart.

Thirdly, that statement is laced with defeatism. Since you have seen that DL is not one to be swayed by empty words, you automatically conclude that there is no hope for his soul, and thus you should not even bother answering his questions or explaining why you believe what you do. At the very least, that is not in keeping with the spirit of Christ.

I know that you will mostly likely take this as yet another attack on you, but it is not. If I have been abrupt and crude, I apologize, but this is a message of love from a brother in Christ. I hope you will accept it as such, and that you will be challenged to test your faith and come to a new understanding of your relationship with Christ.

To everyone else: Apologies for the intrustion and perhaps overly religious tone and content of this message. I just could not stay silent after reading through all of this.





www.liminality.org

suho, no need to apologize for adding your thoughts to an open discussion

Jade, I want to try to make clear that none of my abundant words yesterday was intended as an insult or attack upon you or your faith. If I have allowed for that impression, I offer to you my most sincere and humble apologies.

You asked me to describe my point of view (on infallibility, church hierarchy, etc).
I did.
The thread kinda shifted focus at that time, moving more toward an in-depth look at my thoughts on hierarchies, people failing at all sorts of things, and unchecked power. That's fine. As you so rightly noted, this is one of my passions, and one about which I feel very strongly.
But that part is over, I think. There is not much more that I can say that would do anything more than the original writers could do. Of course if you have any specific questions, I'd be more than happy to do my best to answer them.

Now, let's try to get back on topic, eh? To keep it simple, I'll ask but one question.

It is clear that different people have interpreted the bible to advocate at least 2 different ways of church governance. It's likely I'll get neither of these correct, but, for the sake of discussion, I'll attempt to outline each of the ones I've seen.
1) Protestant view - advocates small, decentralized churches operating relatively independantly, using the bible as a source of guidance.
2) Roman Catholic view - advocates a highly centralized church, with a fixed and rigid hierarchy from the local priest through the pope at the head of all the church.

Please help me understand (providing scripture, outlining deduction, or by whatever means you choose) why you believe option #2 is the prefered method for church governance.
Just as you are not well versed in Locke or Hobbes, I am not well versed in Christian theology. Please help me to understand.

quote:

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Oh well, I am out for awhile to Florida.

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I take it he won't be replying for awhile...if at all.

And Master Suho, nice post...though I must admit, it was a bit on the religious side...do you 'brothers' really talk like that to one another?

DL. I am never serious in my feedback to you or in anykind of attack. You playing the devils advocate serves a purpose. I would be depressed if you went away and I am not avoiding your questions. What haven't I answered?

Mbl

I understand your passion. I am passionate about my beliefs as well. I presume the view that I give is that I believe everyone should be Catholic. Its not the view I want to present. From the feedback I am getting I don't think anyone understands my total submission with out my reasoning. The reasoning has already been done by the church fathers and this involved great thinkers like the philosophers, St Agustine, Ambrose, Thomas Aquinas, John Henry Newman, just to name a few.

The approach of discussing scripture with you on points to me is not a good idea. For one thing I am not a bible only Christian & neither are you. I tend to view life's perspectives on how it blends in with my christian way of thinking and how it all fits together with all that my belief embodies. I often use scripture to express a point. But I don't think the concept of God was meant to be confined to a book.
To me God is in everything living and not living. I see God in the breath I take, the air I breathe, a beautiful sunset, a drop of rain, a babys soft cheek, a warm embrace, a kiss, a cold winter snuggle day but most of all in a persons smile. I see God in a people yesterday and today. In faith its like life is one big giant puzzle and everynow and then I find a piece that fits through experience and a revelation. I will never complete the puzzle but according to your words "we have to aim for something" In a way we are not so different.

In my theology class yesterday, believe it or not we are going to study The "isms", Revolutionary Thinking in Church History". I skimmed through it and read bits. It has nationalism, secularism, empiricism, rationalism with along with Rousseau and Ben Franklin, etc. Its not a big chapter, but I will read up b-4 on the web. So fate brings me to study your passion for a good grade.

Check you when I get back.

WS: Yup. That's my church voice. Pretty funky, huh?

I'm a tad disappointed that I didn't even get a nod of greeting, but oh well...

I nearly fell off my chair, WS! Thanks for that and yes we really do talk that way to each other LOL!!! Is it really so hard to believe we actually try to practice what we preach? I do think I understand how it must look from the outside though. If our roles were reversed I probably would have said the same thing. And remember, you're always more than welcome to join us

Hehe...thanks for the offer...I appreciate it. Been there, done that...no offense, of course. I just wasn't aware that you guys talked like that with each other...

No biggie...

And yes, I do expect you to 'walk it like you talk it'...anything else would be downright insulting, at this point. Good to see that this is true.

Heh, you think the way we talk is funny... you should see our secret handshake.

Mr Web, Not that it matters, but I am female.

Mr suho, so sorry I did not acknowlege you, but you must forgive me. I try. If you notice I stand alone in my beliefs on this thread. I ask for no help. The comment in regard to bugs is that I was being sarcastic. Do you actually believe he would come to my defense? And I am not on this thread to save DL's soul. I don't shy away from his questions either. As I have seen I have explained lots.

In your reference 1 Thess, 5. I believe Paul is speaking of the gifts of the spirit, (speaking in tounges, healing etc. ) to test them that they don't come from evil, but if you want to see the context in regard to me testing my faith, you can.

In reference to me as a person, I can say I am tested always. How can one not be in the world today. I've seen depression, despair, sickness, suffering and death. Ive have fell in a deep pit and and thought I would never climb out. I have sunk in self pity & met the evil one before and I most likely will in the future. Who knows?Through all these tribulations I am still committed to faith.

I am not lothed to use scripure passages, but I figure lots of posters are not bible literate or bible christians so I don't want to seem knowlegable in that they would not communicate with me.

Jade, you might be surprised at what I would agree with you on. In fact, I had planned on explaining to DL how your church views forgiveness, absolution, and penance but I was hoping you would do that since it's your church. But if you don't I'm going to

But just so we're clear, the main thing we do here is try to understand one another clearly. As far as saving DL's soul is concerned, just as long as I have made sure he has heard what I consider to be an accurate version of the gospel, I am quite content to leave that task to One far more qualified than me

There are so many subjects to cover in faith. Setting our divisions aside, you as a christian just like me can find so much common ground. I am connected to you as you are to me and everyone else in the world spritually. I do find much beauty in that.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 04-01-2003).]

Jade, now that

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I am connected to you as you are to me and everyone else in the world spritually. I do find much beauty in that.

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I can agree with...

But save DLs soul? Ummm...I don't think that is necessary. In fact, if most christians would concentrate more on saving their own soul, and not others, I believe the world would be a much more peaceful place. I'm sure that DL can take care of his own. At least, he's willing to do just that - and leave other peoples souls to themselves. If indeed God gave Mankind free will, he did it for a reason : so that every single person could decide, on their own, what to do with it. Personal choice...

He did indeed give us all free choice but that doesn't mean we stop caring for others in the process. I pray for all the people who don't know Christ because I want what's best for them. I totally understand that you don't believe there is any validity to our Christian beliefs but please understand our perspective too. Basically, our job is simply to love and care for people and make sure they understand our message. We then leave it up to the individual and God to work out the rest because it is a personal choice for every human being to make.

Yes, but in todays society, there is more than enough information available...one doesn't need to be 'reminded' of the fact...it's an intrusion on the free-will process. One has the free will to decide, if one wishes to be informed, or not...that should be respected, IMHO.

I understand what you are saying...and I have no problem with that. It is namely agressive informing (which is really a form of recruitment, actually) that disturbs me. And though one may (or may not, as the case may be) be actually concerned about the state of others, it is largely up to the individual (IMHO) to decide whether or not they wish this concern...glad that you feel the way you do, but remember - give freely, without expecting something in return - then one is never dissappointed (and it avoids problems). So, pray for whomever you wish (or whatever), but don't expect others to acknowledge it, I guess is what I'm saying.

Don't worry, my friend, I'm not giving up anytime soon

I do my best to follow strict "rules of engagement" around here, LOL! But you know where I stand and you know the door is always open... that goes for all my friends here and I think the other "brothers & sisters" would agree too.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 04-02-2003).]

jade: No, you do not stand alone. We may differ on some points, but we are still brother and sister, right? Don't take anything I said too hard, OK?

WS: Um, sorry about starting the whole thing about saving DL's soul... don't take that the wrong way. I meant that no human being has the right or responsibility to save DL's soul, or even judge whether or not it needs saving. As for saving our own souls, we can't do that either. That was the whole point, really...

My only question/statement is - what makes you think Bugs *wouldn't* come to your defense Jade?

You and bugs agree on far more things than he and I do.

But we get along just fine because we have both been open about our own beliefs and can respect each other based on that. So, it's not a matter whatsoever of how many people have the same beliefs as you...which is kinda the point everyone's been trying to get across here.

As to my questions...I don't really recall any being answered. But that's ok, it's what I expected in fact.

=)

{{edit - that's bizarre...suho's post didn't show before I posted, though it was hours earlier than mine...
hmm, my soul is becoming a hot commodity...where shall we start the bidding?? }}






[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 04-02-2003).]

$10 and a month of free car washes
(I'm not sure what I'd actually do with a soul...)

Suho. I don't take offense or take your post the wrong way. And thank you for acknowledging me as a sister in Christ.

DL: Your 15 minutes of fame will be up pretty soon.

ah, yep - there it is again. Replace any sort of response to anything I said with a disparaging comment.

Good show.

=)

Gosh!! I did not mean be disbaraging. But since you command attention from me, What? I have paid more attention to you than anyone else on this thread. I am seeing you are spoiled.

Mbl.

I wanted to ask you on your view of the abortion rights issue in the area of the potential life we are exterminating. I know we are focusing on the right of the women, but what about the right of the unborn who is defenseless?

What world are you living in jade?? Obviously not the real one....

quote:

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Basically, our job is simply to love and care for people and make sure they understand our message. We then leave it up to the individual and God to work out the rest because it is a personal choice for every human being to make.

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Bugs - This is all well and good on an individual basis, but I think the problem crops up when all the millions of individuals who feel likewise come to me to make sure I understand their message. They then leave it up to me and God to work out the rest... right about the time the next one is coming up the drive...

I see no other offers for DL's soul. $10 and a month of car washes then? Please arrange to have it shipped, C.O.D. to my post office box.

I believe that a woman should have full legal control over her reproductive capabilities. She should have free and legal access to all aspects of knowledge relating to sex and reproduction. Basic medical coverage should include maintaining a healthy reproductive system and the ability to prevent pregnancy, stop (abort) a pregnancy, or start a pregnancy (as best science can allow) at the will of the woman.
Contraception and abortion should be legal, safe, and voluntary.
A woman's decision to abort a fetus growing inside her should be the result of conversations between the woman, her doctor and her god, if she has one.

DL:
Obviouslly not in the same world you live in.


I think your dog needs to be let out, why don't you go take him for a walk. A long walk.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 04-02-2003).]

DL - Ha! That told you!


<crickets>

<crickets>