Topic awaiting preservation: Tool and Lachrymology (Page 1 of 1)

I found this little tidbit while searching for the meaning of the word "Ænima." (The title of a Tool album). Anyways, I think that I figured it out finally (it's a combination of the words "anima" and "enema") and it makes double-sense after reading this little essay.

quote:

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Lachrymology
Lachrymation - the shedding of tears
Lachrymator - a substance that makes the eyes water, such as tear gas.
Lachrymist - One who is addicted to tears; weeper.
Lachrymose - 1. given to shedding tears; tearful: lachrymose depressions of spirit. 2. suggestive of or tending to cause tears; mournful: lachrymose poetry. maudlin, melancholy.
Lachrymosity - tearfullness

What is lachrymology?

Perhaps the most mysterious of TOOLs beliefs is that of Lachrymology - which can basically be described as the study of "crying as therapy". It's pretty safe to say that the band have made up Lachrymology to both entertain themselves and their fans, and to keep everyone guessing. However Lachrymology should not be dismissed as a stupid joke, because their can be much to learn from it. The general idea behind Lachrymology is the evolution of oneself through emotional and physical pain. The idea is not to inflict pain on yourself, but to learn and grow from the pain that has been inflicted upon you.

Who is the founder?

The information sheet that accompanies the promotional copy of Undertow explains more about TOOL's belief in Lachrymology. It states: "In the late summer of 1948, Ronald P. Vincent decided that survival had become intolerable, that absolute anguish had become less fearful than suppression. Six months earlier, his wife had been dismembered in a tragic accident involving a snow plough, and from that moment on, the crop-spray contractor's life had become an unrelenting nightmare." It goes on to explain that Vincent subsequently authored a book, A Joyful Guide to Lachrymology, under the influences of Francis Bacon and Friedrich Nietzsche. A meeting of Vincent a number of years later (shortly before his death from cirrhosis) with guitarist Adam Jones became the inspiration for the formation of TOOL. It continues: "The number of people willing to study the science of Lachrymology seriously dwindled to just a handful, and the entire cult had become virtually extinct by 1960. By a cruel (yet ironic) twist of fate, the new cult of Scientology boomed, so while L. Ron Hubbard became immensely rich and moved to San Luis Obispo, Ronald P. Vincent became destitute and friendless."

Tool talking about lachrymology

One of the unifying forces in the band is the philosophy/religion known as Lachrymology, founded in the 1940s by Ronald P. Vincent. Lachrymology translates literally to "the study of crying." The basic tenet, evident in the band's music, is that the greatest road to advancement is through pain--emotional and physical. Hence the band's name. "We wanted the band," says Carey, "to be a 'tool' to learn and gain from.
The Charlatan: Carleton U's Independent Student Newspaper, 2/16/94
"I think it's definitely a part of what we all think" says Paul, the bassist of TOOL, "and believe about how we're expressing ourselves, and what the music does for us. It's something that you have to explore on your own, though ... it's a self expression type thing"
It is now thought that lachrymology is a conept of Tool based on the novel "The Joyful Guide to Lachrymology". The author is Ronald P. Vincent, and was published way back in 1949. Strangely nobody has been able to find it this book isn't even in the catalog of the Library of Congress.
The idea is not to inflict pain on yourself but to learn and grow from the pain that has been inflicted uipon you ("I choose to live and to grow..." - Forty Six & 2). Although Tool speaks strongly of Lachrymology it is not meant as a religion, it is mistaken for a religion for being based on a (supposed) fictional character Ronald P. Vincent. Lachrymology is a myth that tool believes strongly in and not a religion.

Lachrymology in the words of Maynard James Keenan

Since Lachrymology translates directly as "the study of crying" this explains the repeating pattern of tool bringing up the subject of water in their songs and albums such as "Undertow" and "Ænima" there is a repeating theme of water. In the lyrics of Maynard James Keenan he not only talks of water in the form of oceans and such, but in waves, rain, and bodily fluids. Water is meant represent pain and the innumerable forms of water Maynard has utilized to express the many pains he explores. In Ænima, Keenan also uses water to symbolize the cleansing.
"The ground is breaking down right under me. Cleanse and Purge me in the water." - Flood
In Opiate the mentioning of Lachrymology did not really enter in. Except in "Sweat" where he refers to a fisherman and refers to the fisherman as a thinker. Then in the song Ænema he makes a subtle reference to Sweat by saying " I'm sweating, and breathing, and staring and thinking and sinking deeper and it's almost like I'm swimming." here he refers to himself as a thinker (just like in sweat) and also sweating and swimming and sinking deeper which are all related to water.
In Undertow, they speak as an earlier beginning of Lachrymology. Such as in "bottom" where Keenan says "My piss and mons are the fuel that set my head on fire," and "I have swallowed the poison you feed me, But I survived on it" this is not only a reference to water but goes back to Lachrymology's idea of growing through pain. Other tracks that are reference to water are: (of course) Undertow, Prison sex, sober, bottom, swamp song, flood, and one small reference in disgustipated. The one reference in disgustipated is "Drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers."
I encourage everyone to listen closely to both the Undertow, and Ænima albums and find other lachrymology related material for yourself such as the titles Undertow and Ænima themselves. Undertow obviously referring water, the first verse of the song is a great example:
"Gone under two times
I've been struck dumb by a voice that
speaks from deep
beneath the cold black water.
It's twice as clear as heaven
and twice as loud as reason
It's deep and rich like silt on a riverbed
and just as undisturbing
the currents mouth below me opens up around me
suggests and beckons all while swallowing
it surrounds and drowns and sweeps me awaybut I'm so comfortable... Too comfortable"
And the title Ænima related to the song Ænema both deal with flushing unwanted material from a body.

Foundations of Lachrymology

What we know of the foundations of Lachrymology to date is very little (aside from the band's remarks above), mostly due to the mysterium its probable founders surround themselves with, as well as a general dismissal of the philosophy as a hoax and therefore worthless. It is, however, a safe assumption to make that the "myth" of Ronald Vincent is a fabrication on the part of the band's. More research shall be made on my part to investigate the origins of Lachrymology as this page progresses.

Tenants of Lachrymology

The only tenants of Lachrymology that Tool has revealed to us (since no one else seems to be able to procure a copy of Vincent's manifesto- you gotta love those guys...) are the evolution of the self through emotional and physical pain. This was stated simply in the quote above from Kabir's faq, but has been more subtley revealed through the work of Tool's lyricist, Maynard James Keenan. Although most of his work deals in whole with emotional and mental growth through traumatic and other painful experiences (such as drug addiction, loss of loved ones, and childhood abuse), Keenan also presents us with many metaphorical images of physical agony to represent this inner advancement.

Lachrymology in the words of Maynard James Keenan

"Only this one holy medium brings me peace of mind."
Possibly the best place we can look to find the true meaning behind Lachrymology is to the voice of Tool itself: it?s singer, Maynard James Keenan. Although probably not the first in the band to produce the idea of Lachrymology (Adam Jones, the guitarist, is credited in Kabir?s "Tool Faq" as being the first in the band to be influenced by the philosophy- in other words, he?s the one who thought of it first?), Keenan has undoubtedly given shape and color to the concept through his lyrics. Through his powerfully subtle, painfully personal, and tragically poetic verse, Keenan has illustrated what Lachrymology (as well as various other Tool philosophies) means to him and demonstrates his ability to evolve through its means. From my search for evidence of Lachrymology in Keenan?s work, I have produced two common elements within his lyrics (the instrumental music itself aside- that may be a future project?) that point to the existence of Lachrymology and Keenan?s (if not Tool in its entirety) advocacy of its methods. These elements are the recurring theme of water (in accordance with Lachrymology?s idea of crying as therapy) and Keenan?s persistence of survival no matter its means (evolving through pain).
"Cleanse and purge me in the water."
The Water Motif
With album titles such as Undertow and Ænima, Tool does not force one to look very far to find the theme of water (as well as many of its forms) rampant in its music. However, just how deep this current runs (pun intended) comes not as a shock to those familiar with the idea of Lachrymology. Translating literally to "the study of crying," Lachrymology demonstrates that pain can take many shapes, just as Tool proves that crying does as well: perhaps this is why so many different guises of water are found throughout its music. The appearance in Keenan?s lyrics of not only tears, but rain, waves, and bodily fluids is perhaps only a part of Lachrymology?s message that one must explore, understand, and evolve through every incarnation of pain one encounters. Thus, in this light, water becomes a representation of pain and the myriad of water?s forms mentioned in Keenan?s lyrics becomes an assortment of the many pains he explores. It seems, however, in their latest release, Ænima, that Keenan has extended this metaphor and utilizes water to also symbolize cleansing, a concept only touched upon near the end of Undertow, but no less relevant to Lachrymology, since the purging of one?s unnecessary vices is essential for evolution through these means.
Opiate. Obvious to anyone familiar with the gamut of Tool?s albums, the influence of Lachrymology apparently did not enter upon its music until the Undertow-era. In the first album, Opiate (1992- Zoo Entertainment; which is really just an EP), I could find only one song in which the presence of water was strong enough to constitute notice. That song is the first on the album, "Sweat." In it, Keenan refers to a "fisherman" as well as a "thinker" and eventually refers to himself as both. Also, echoing his own words in a track released four years later, "Ænema" (purposely spelled differently than the album title- see any corresponding articles on the philosophy of Æenima), Keenan sings, "?I'm sweating, and breathing, and staring and thinking and sinking deeper and it's almost like I'm swimming." In this song alone he has both established himself as a philosopher ("a thinker"), implied that he is attempting to draw sustenance from the water ("a fisherman"), and associated himself with water many times ("sweating," and "swimming?), as well as illustrated that he is "sinking," an activity with negative connotation, but that this activity makes him think of "swimming," a common recreation. I don?t think this is a coincidence, especially in light of Tool?s next album?
Undertow. Undertow (1993- Zoo Entertainment),Tool?s full-length debut, is simply mired in the water motif (pun again intended). From its title (assumed to be borrowed from the title of the seventh track) to the epic climax of "Flood," this album could be considered, in lieu of Ænima, the Old Testament of Lachrymology (not to infer any religious implications, of course). The role of water played in the album begins to take form in the second track, "Prison Sex" (the first track appears to be simply an attack on military brainwashing-- wait...washing? ). Keenan, in the best translation of this song, sings from the viewpoint of someone violently and sexually abused as a child now reliving it through the abuse to theirs. Being one of the key songs on the album in reference to Lachrymology, this song will be dealt with in the following section. However, a couple occurrences of water are found in this song, such as the line, "I'm treading water, I need to sleep a while." Also, near the end of the line, "For one sweet moment, I am whole," Keenan?s voice becomes muffled in a way similar to drowning.
The following two tracks, "Sober" and "Bottom," both deal with some form of water in association with the mouth. The chorus of "Sober" ("Why can't we not be sober? I just want to start this over. Why can't we drink forever?"), is the question Keenan asks as he explores the restrictions placed on him by Christian/American values. And in "Bottom," Keenan first exclaims, "My piss and moans are the fuel that set my head on fire," followed by the more calculated verse, "I have swallowed the poison you feed me, but I survive on it?" It can also be noted that aside from the water-related references (including the title) that this last verse is another incarnation of Lachrymology?s insistence on evolving through pain, as will be discussed in the next section. Two tracks later, Keenan lyrically confronts an uninvited guest in "Swamp Song." Needless to say, with a title such as this, there is a substantial amount of water -allusion in this song. These are found in lines such as "You?re dancing in quicksand," "You?re wading knee-deep and going in," "This bog is thick and easy to get lost in," and the infamous chorus, "I hope it sucks you down."
Perhaps, however, the central piece of this album is it?s namesake, the classic "Undertow." An exploration of the approach-avoidance quality of drug addiction, this song likens the plight of the addict to being caught in a powerful undertow. Again, this serves as a perfect canvas on which to splash the motif of water . The song?s opening verse: "Gone under two times. I?ve been struck dumb by a voice that speaks from beneath the cold black water." Some further examples of water in the song, "Undertow":
"It's deep and rich like silt on a riverbed and just as undisturbing."
"The current?s mouth below me opens up around me, suggests and beckons all while swallowing. It surrounds and drowns and sweeps me away."
"?you're saturating me."
"I've been baptized by your voice. It screams from deep beneath the endless water."
"It's cold and black like silt on the riverbed."
"I'm back down. I'm in the undertow. I'm helpless and awake in the undertow. I'll die within your undertow. It seems there's no other way out of this undertow. Euphoria."
And finally, the epic "Flood," which marks the climax of the album (followed by the industrial "Disgustipated," which will not be analyzed in this section due to only one appearance of water, "?drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers?"- however, notice the allusion to crying) draws a comparison between a biblical flood and the onslaught of painful realizations one man confronts after his loss of faith ( a bit of irony). This is another example of one of the manifestations of pain that Keenan explores in his lyrics. During the song?s lengthy instrumental opening, Keenan can be heard chanting softly, "Here comes the water." Once the song is in full motion, the following references to water can be found:
"I scramble to reach higher ground?"
"Soon the water will come and claim what is mine."
"This ground is not the rock I thought it to be."
"The water is rising up on me. Thought the sun would come deliver me, but the truth has come to punish me instead."
"The ground is breaking down right under me. Cleanse and purge me in the water."
Ænima. At first glance, the water motif of Tool?s latest release Ænima (1996- Zoo Entertainment) may be a bit more? uh, gruesome than Undertow, but from what we know of the word "ænima" from Adam Jones in an Australian radio interview, it only has a minor relationship with the word "enema" (both deal in part with flushing unwanted material from a body, but Ænima is apparently another philosophy Tool has espoused- or invented- calling for both an individual and universal purging, a philosophy that will be addressed on this page in another area; note: the spelling of the album title differs from the spelling of "Ænema," the thirteenth track, a lyrical denunciation of modern needs, especially in Los Angeles, and a call for an apocalyptic solution, symbolized by California sinking into the ocean), and maybe a bit more to do with the Jungian concept of the animus. However, the word "ænima" (or "ænema") is, no doubt, supposed to remind one of "enema" and is an obvious allusion to something dealing with water, a perfect title for another album riddled with such allusions.
The first two songs, both strongly related to Lachrymology, find their messages put forth less subtly than the rest of the album and, in turn, find themselves with less room for images of water. However, in the third track, "H.," the lyrics are once again found to be full of these allusions. Images of rain, urine, drinking, blood, and tears bring to life this vague lyrical study of self-sacrifice, a song which Keenan recently introduced by first asking the audience if any of them had children and going on to remark that "It changes the way you look at things, doesn?t it? The world?" I assume that this remark, in conjunction with the fact that Keenan recently became a father, implies that this song has something to do with the significant changes one experiences when becoming a parent. This is not the only change Keenan explores in this particular album, of course (the most infamous being the concept addressed in "Forty Six & 2" and probably the most personal in "jimmy"). At any rate, here are some of the examples of water in "H.":
"But what's singing songs is a snake, looking to turn this piss to wine."
"And I feel this coming over like a storm again."
"Venomous voice, tempts me, drains me, bleeds me, leaves me cracked and empty."
"Without the skin, beneath the storm, under these tears, the walls came down."
"?the snake is drowned and as I look in his eyes, my fear begins to fade."
"I could have cried then. I should have cried then."
The song, "Forty Six & 2," though playing an integral role in Tool?s other philosophy, Ænima, has only one reference to crying, but will be investigated also in the next section for its contributions to the meaning of Lachrymology. "Pushit," as well, relates much to the tenants of Lachrymology, but is a bit lacking in its allusions to water.
Finally, however, we come to the song, "Ænema," the last track on the album to be saturated with watery images ("Third Eye," the album?s 14-minute climax, contains only one reference to "dew"). Aside from Keenan?s haunting command, "learn to swim," and the implications of the title (discussed above) we encounter the presence of water often. Here are a few of the key lines:
·Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call L.A., the only way to fix it is to flush it all away? Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay."
·Some say a comet will fall from the sky, followed by meteor showers and tidal waves."
"?I'm praying for rain and I'm praying for tidal waves. I wanna see the ground give way. I wanna watch it all go down."
"And I feel this coming over like a storm again. Considerately."
Tears, fluid produced in the lacrimal glands above the outside corner of each eye. The fluid lubricates the eyes and protects them from foreign matter and infection?the latter because it contains salt and lysozyme, an enzyme that kills microorganisms. During normal flow, tears constantly wash over the exterior of the eye and collect at its inside corner, where they drain through two small lacrimal ducts into the nasal cavity. During heavy tear flow, such as that caused by irritation, the excess fluid that is not taken up by the lacrimal ducts spills over the eyelids, carrying off foreign bodies too large to be flushed through the lacrimal ducts.
?In the late summer of 1948, Ronald P. Vincent decided that survival had become intolerable, that absolute anguish had become less fearful than suppression. Six months earlier, his wife had been dismembered in a tragic accident involving a snow plough, and from that moment on, the crop-spray contractor's life had become an unrelenting nightmare.?
So begins the information sheet which accompanies the promotional copy of Undertow, by Los Angeles band Tool. It goes on to explain that Vincent subsequently authored a book, A Joyful Guide To Lachrymology, under the influences of Francis Bacon and Friedrich Nietzsche.
A meeting of Vincent a number of years later (shortly before his death from cirrhosis) with guitarist Adam Jones became the inspiration for the formation of Tool.
The information sheet continues, bemoaning: ?The number of people willing to study the science of lachrymology seriously dwindled to just a handful, and the entire cult had become virtually extinct by 1960. By a cruel (yet ironic) twist of fate, the new cult of scientology boomed, so while L. Ron Hubbard became immensely rich and moved to San Luis Obispo, Ronald P. Vincent became destitute and friendless.? Oh dear.
Still, the album cover itself contains none of this, and potential listeners need not dip into the heavy-handed spoofery unless it interests them. The ability to relate the ubiquitous theme of alienation is why Tool's music has managed to capture an audience. Coping with the alienation and violence of '90s Los Angeles by expressing it musically seems to be their central inspiration.
Musically, the tracks on the album are powerful but not as abrasive as might be expected. The vocals are as much sorrowful as anguished, backed by slow, punchy baselines. It is probably most reminiscent of the Rollins Band, both musically and in its attempt to reflect and comment on the frustration and violence which surround them. One of the tracks on the album in fact features Henry Rollins.

Lachrymology info by;
Innuendo Cornecopria.com Copyright (c) 2000-2001 Webmaster Ralph E. Smith

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[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 04-25-2003).]

Seen that before . Thats actually an old article, it came out before 2000-2001... Well, at least parts of it did. I've read and skimmed through bits and peices of that from all over. I even downloaded an interview with Maynard. Just curious, have you heard APC's music? APC is way more lachrymologic. They have way more emotion, and I think Maynard was trying to communicate in a way when he was writing the lyrics to it. Though I don't really think that the band based all their music on lachrymology, it was more of a response to the music as Maynard put it in that interview I downloaded.

And, CFB, have you seen the video for Ænima?

That article revealed to me, much more clearly, why i have always loved Tool, and bands of the like (*ahem* dredg, probably my favorite band of all time, beautiful music with a similarity to Tool in the form of Sleep Paralysis)

Tool is simply, and justifiably, a band full of geniuses. Craftsmanship unmatched by much of the "metal" and other genres for a long time yet and a long time not yet come.

rock on CFB...

insider snuck it... i agree with you somewhat.. but i've always found APC to be a bit more generic.. their musicianship doesn't match Tool's (in my opinion) but Maaynard loses none of his potency, if not gaining more.

{edit} -BTW ... anyone who has the interest to listen to a truely genius, inspirational and underappreciated band, get me on AIM at: Japanese Mileage and i'll be glad to send you over some of their masterful work (even a video if thats what you prefer). I have been a fan and a supporter of them for a long time - i often question myself often because of gavin's lyrics and find them as a muse more often than not {/edit}

"The only difference between me and a madman is that... i'm not mad!" - Salvador Dali

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

Sanzen, you haven't been here long enough to know the massive TOOL fan I am, saw them twice in concert yup yup .

Though this is the first time I've seen CFB share a side for TOOL.

CFB, I don't know if you're a long time TOOL fan or you're just now beginning to feel the love, but you'll soon realize that TOOL is one of the most confusing, genius, chromatic, intelligent, and psychological bands ever. There are many theories based upon what TOOL is all about. But, if you really want to understand TOOL. I got one word for ya.

WICCAN.

TOOL is based upon the wiccan religion. What you see in their album art, thier videos... It's all based upon that religion and many other cabolic refrences. Many of it is over yours and mine, but that shouldn't stop you from searching. A lot of people think WICCAN is a satanic religion, not even close. My girlfriend is wiccan, and being with her has opened my eyes. Oh and by the way, we (my girlfriend and I) are going to Lollapalooza this summer, and guess who's playing........ A Perfect Circle of course . One of the six bands. Anyways, to be back on track. TOOL, is all pretty much based on a spiritual meaning. Just the words "Ride the spiral to the end," have a reference to the Quabalah and Wiccan, also known as White Magic and The Golden Dawn. A lot of it is deep, it goes into mathmatical and theoritic principles to explain what cannot be explained, like GOD, and the Universe. But it's all in theory, it has relation to Taro Cards and the Pentacle.

Well before I write a book on it, I suggest you google around to see what you can find.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 04-25-2003).]

Insider: i used to be a wiccan.... neo-pagan...

but since then i have decided that religion itself wasn't for me... though i tend to have a greater respect for nature than most (regardless of my SUV ) ..

catch me on AIM we'll talk music some time

PS: have you ever read any Aleister Crowley books? ... quite the read.

"The only difference between me and a madman is that... i'm not mad!" - Salvador Dali

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

I'm atheist, see the debate ^he and I took place in with Bugs and WS.

AIM is The Devil, never speak of it in my presence again. If you wanna talk, there is ICQ.

Actually, I've always loved Tool, since I heard them about 4 years ago.

Yes, I know about all of what your saying, I've just never heard of Lachrymology, or bands using it as a central theme.

But, being Wiccan is actually being Satanic. From what I understand, in reading and whatnot, a popular thing among the Wiccans is "white magic." White magic (druids etc) are, from a Christian, Catholic etc perspective, Satanic. The christian religion doesn't diffrenciate between "good magic" and "bad magic," basically, as anything "not from god," (spiritually) is from satan."

In any case, yes, Tool is a great band. I've got a significant amount of Tool paraphanelia, and the main reason that I like them is that they have good music. Secondly would be the lyrics. Although being one theologically mixed up band, they're lyrics are actually "intelligent," as opposed to something like: "Fuck you fuck you fuck you," which has become all too common in modern rock music.

I actually originally thought that Ænima, the song, was about California falling into the ocean. Stupid me.

I googled to try and find this: "lost manuscript," but I couldn't.

And, isn't the album art on Lateralus supposed to be some type of directions for a ritual or something?

[EDIT=use Trillian]

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 04-25-2003).]

I beg to differ about Tool being Pagan. or Wiccan, they are Not... they follow something resembling traditional wiccan (witchcraft) .. known as Thelema.... its a very very interesting system, and you should check it out if you haven't.

"The only difference between me and a madman is that... i'm not mad!" - Salvador Dali

there are all kinds of Magik, CFB.... i was whats known as a "green witch" .... which has a particularly adherance to nature, moreso than others... there are many kinds of wiccans and its a believe system certainly more fesible than any christian religion i've ever heard of.

"The only difference between me and a madman is that... i'm not mad!" - Salvador Dali

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

quote:

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I actually originally thought that Ænima, the song, was about California falling into the ocean. Stupid me.

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OMG SO DID I!!!!!!

Anyway, if you see the album art to lateralus, go to your nearest catholic church and look for a stained glass shot of Jesus. In almost every archaic painting/reference, he always has the two fingers up with the thumb folded into the palm.

That skinless man is Jesus, and the pentacle is upside down meaning evil. They're saying Jesus is Evil.

Incase you haven't figure out yet, TOOL is anti-religous . Read the inside inscription to Ænima, (from the top of my head) it says something like "Religion causes the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing."

edit: CFB what's your trillian/ICQ #? And did you get my email


[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 04-25-2003).]

Dont be so quick to judge tool for their beliefs Insider.... have you ever visited Danny carey's website?
read my post above.

there are many elements of pro-religion (or at least a belief system) in their lyrics, from Thelemic, Masonic, Druidic and many others...

and there is more to Tool than Maaynard, im tired of hearing that in this topic... He's 1/4th of Tool, and an equal among them, not greater than them. Danny Carey and Maaynard both have ties to the Thelemic system. They (have) spent great amounts of money on original books, signed by Aleister Crowley. I realize that Thelema isn't exactly a religion, but its close enough to that it should be considered one.

Hell, Carey even assembles his drum-kit in a manner so that it is of a certain symbolic structure... thats beyond just drumming technique.

"The only difference between me and a madman is that... i'm not mad!" - Salvador Dali

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

Hmm...I can't say that I totally agree. Magic has, always was, and always will be a spiritual, as well as religious practice.

I can't recall where, but some of there songs refer to Jesus in a sense that they actually beleive in him, not in a religious sense, but just in a sense that they know that he is: "there."

I've seen the little five (or was it eight) "schools," or "colors" of magic, but all I can say is what I said before. I wouldn't think less of someone for they're beleifs, but, go read a book. I think that I mentioned it before, but read "The Satan Seller." It's not exactly the type of magic (portrayed in the book) that you are talking about, but it's magic non-theless. And another occultic book, called Occult ABC, documented that even "White witches" had become possessed as a result of there actions (which were fairly, even to them, un-Satanic).

IMHO, all magic opens people up to, well, bad things.

And yes, I beleive that in order to be occultic (Opiate especially), really showed a spiritual side to Tool.

My ICQ is 248780721, but I am using Trillian currently, but big diffrence, Trillian does ICQ and AIM and MSN.

Umm...I didn't get your email. I changed my email, because I forgot my old password. A couple of other people have sent me email that I never got because of that.

FYI - Eulogy was based on Jesus... But it was still anti-jesus.... Just take a look at this quote here (also off the top of my head)

quote:

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Would you? Would you now? Would you die for me? Don't you fucking lie.

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have you ever read a book on Magick CFB? Maybe you'll find that you like it? I imagine possession could be a fraud or intentional... but maybe being possessed is a good thing? Dont be so quick to judge what someone writes in a book as a truth for the majority. Especially if its there to disprove something....


{edit} me finks that Insider is ignoring my comments =P {/edit}

"The only difference between me and a madman is that... i'm not mad!" - Salvador Dali

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 04-25-2003).]

"Interesting and sophisticated.

Refusing to be celebrated.

It's a monumental big-screen kiss

Gets so deep, it's meaningless."


----------------------

And the edit looks like this: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and occasionally someone's being a bit more obtuse than we want to nail them to. Maybe it's martyrdom, not a sac cloth man as target. Or maybe that's just the lack of need to over-analyze from an old man.

You sink, you're not learning.



[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 04-25-2003).]

I thought that I just made a post!? And now it's gone...In any case...

Sorry for the Maynaard referance, but, look at something like the lyrics to Opiate,

quote:

---

Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow,
what you need is someone strong to use you...
like me,
like me.

If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me.
Don't judge or question.
You are broken now,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.

My God's will
becomes me.
When he speaks out,
he speaks through me.
He has needs
like I do.
We both want
to rape you.

Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes and blind me with your light
and your lies.

---

Something like this, although being anti-Christian, also recognized that they have a spiritual side. Most people that have Satanic or Ritualistic beleifes, are religious, and acknowledge that there is a God, but they choose not to have a religious connection with him.

Amen Peter...

Though your words may be lost, to some...*sigh*

arrhhhh. More peter.....

You guys having fun here? Just thought I'd drop in and see if anyone needed some shock therapy...

I didn't get it at first...But...

...Why...

...And, where does that come from? Or did you make it up.

quote:

---

Or maybe that's just the lack of need to over-analyze from an old man.

---

I get it now, I know what you were saying. You were saying that sometimes people look at the meaning of something so deeply that they begin to blindly see meaning that was never intended.

And funny you should mention over-analyzation... The lyrics of the song Lateralis like, over-thinking over-analyzing, seperate the body from the mind. whithering my intuition.... and all that stuff.

While I think that was what you were saying, and you are right. TOOL still has many misunderstood meanings, many are just theories, but for the most part they make your head spin. That's how deep TOOL is.

Suho1004:

quote:

---

Just thought I'd drop in and see if anyone needed some shock therapy...

---

I'll sign the relevant documentation to send everyone in this thread for some ECT (including us - woo hoo).

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

yes, over analyzing...

eventually you may also realize that there is a vast gap between 'allusion' and actual 'meaning'.

A reference to something does not mean that's what the whole song means....
(and no, I have no interest is debating lyric for lyric...just wanted to add to Peter's point - it's a very important one).

Lyric for Lyric debating isn't ment here, I agree .

So he WAS saying that there is reference but sometimes no real meaning?