Topic awaiting preservation: Satan...

...Hmmm. We had a big discussion about religion in German class for the last week or so. In any case, the teacher asked me to gather a bunch of facts relating to Satan, the origin of Satan, the origin of the world Satan, Satan biblically etc...In any case, I have everything covered, web pages bookmarked and printed, except for one thing, a list of names, or a page of names, comprehensivly, that Satan has been called throughout history, and that other cultures have called a Satan-like entity. If somebody has a list like this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

You probably have these allready, but just from the top of my head I remeber:
- Lucifer
- Devil
- Lightbringer
- Fallen Angel or The chief of the fallen angels
- Grand Adversary of Man or the Adversary of God
- Prince of darkness
- the Archfiend
- Beelzebub (but I think this mostly refers to some big demon in hell and not Satan...)
- the Tempter
- the Accuser

_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"

The Morning star... or is it Mourning star?

George W. ....... something or another. ???? Or perhaps we could just go with "he who shall not be named"

Here's a list of names...

Names of Satan


[This message has been edited by Moon Dancer (edited 04-29-2003).]

Hell-Monster?

Moon Dancer wins the cookie



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

Diablo

You discuss Satan and religion in German class? Wow, I don't remember doing anything like that in my high school German class...

We did all get to pick German names for ourselves, though, so I chose Hans and my friends chose Franz, and we went around pumping people up. It was fun.

Oh, yeah, and Moon Dancer's list definitely takes the cake (cookie, whatever). I found the last section especially interesting:

quote:

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Folk Lore Names Of Satan
Lusty Dick
Old Scratch
Black Bogey
Gentlemen Jack
Old Horny

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Lusty Dick? Old Horny? Being the oral literature major that I am, I would definitely like to see the folk tales that these names came from. For academic purposes, of course.




www.liminality.org

Thanks a lot for the help and input, it really helped.

--

Suho...For academic purposes. Right, I got'chya



(Actually, I would like to know what type of search Moon Dancer typed to get that, because when I searched I was looking for things like "Satan names" "Historical Satan names" "Satan in History" etc and looking through the pages, but I got a bunch of Christian pages warning me of the dangers of Satan. It got tiring after about two hours.

Again, SuhoL We were discussing Faust because I started reading it on my own, and was talking to the German teacher about it, who is the schools Philosophy, Psychology, Nerdy, All around (one of the) smartest people I know. In any case, she decided to take it up, and talk about Hitler, and she had to start by explaining about the history of Religion in Europe, sine the majority of the class is a bunch of ignorany ass-wipes. Well, pretty soon it got into a discussion about religion, and we ended up learning nothing about Hitler (save for another day), and then discussing evil in the western culture, and since I was the main contributer to the discussion, she gave me a homework assignment.

If an administrator walked in, though...hoo-boy.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 04-29-2003).]

Also check out Encyclopedia Mythica

Click on Explore and search on Satan. It will bring up a nice list of names, along with the history, origin and sources. The site in and of itself is an interesting place to poke around...

I'm pretty sure the Old Horny bit come from the frequent depiction of satan as a satyr (top half man, bottom half goat). It's a wierd mix of christianity and greek mythology



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

Seemed to have missed out 'Old Cootie' and 'Old Nick'.

Anyway you might want to look at how the older fertility gods were incorporated into the Satan myth. Initially it was characters like Baal the Mesopotamian blood God (and Set, etc.) and when they moved into Europe it incorportaed elements of people like Pan and the Green Man (in an attempt to stamp out the worship of pagan God's) - hence the cloven hoof, etc.

Pan:
www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/pan.htm

Set/Baal:
www.satan4u.8m.com/history/history2.html

From:
www.biblicaldiscipleship.org/Essentials/worldview.htm

quote:

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1 KINGS 18:19ff CLASH!!!

Elijah on Mount Carmel versus 450 prophets of Baal and 400 prophets of the Asherah (groves) = a major clash of two opposing worldviews!

Elijah: "If the LORD be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him." And the people answered him not a word.

But later: "The LORD, He is God!" (x2)

MATTHEW 16:13ff CLASH!!

The Lord Jesus is at Caesarea Philippi, Mount Herman and He asks His disciples "Whom say ye that I am?" (identification)

Peter answers: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Mt. Herman was headquarters for Pan worship (Pantheism) and Caesar worship

Trinitarianism vs polytheism and monotheism

ACT 17:16ff CLASH!!!

Paul on Mt. Mars (Mars Hill in Athens, the intellectual and spiritual capital of the world) confronts two of the major worldviews of the Greco-Roman world: Epicureans (Atheists, Humanists) and Stoics (Pantheists, New Age).

Paul presents the Creator, Resurrected Lord and Judge at headquarters. CLASH

CLASH AT HEADQUARTERS

Elijah, the Lord Jesus, and Paul went right to the headquarters of the opposing worldview and took on the enemies of the one true God and Savior.

Mt Carmel = Baal

Mt Herman = Pan and Caesar

Mt Mars = Atheists and Pantheists

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They also incorporated various pagan festivals into the Church's. Read why you should avoid Valentine's Day here:
www.eternalgod.org/lit/updates/update079.html

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

counterfeitbacon:

quote:

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Actually, I would like to know what type of search Moon Dancer typed

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I went to google and typed "names of satan"

LOL - its amazing when you try!!

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

cfb: Oh, Faust, OK, I guess that makes sense then...

And when you all go and check out the Encyclopedia Mythica (which Moon Dancer linked to above), be sure to check out the Korean mythology section. They say the editor is absolutely brilliant.

Actually, Faust or no Faust, it wouldn't be an unusual discussion; It's an unusual class.

'Old Nick' is my favorite. Mainly because it's also the name of an exceptional beer as well =) Surprised they left that one off the list though.

Suho - very cool. I love the encyclopedia mythica, been using it for years. good to see such noteworthy editors

Here's a little tidbit for ya:

"Satan" in Hebrew actually translates "adversary". Here's an reference or 2:

http://www.biblebeliefs.net/od/glory38.htm

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/back/Satan%20and%20the%20devil.pdf

During the course of Christian history, the word "satan" has evolved to represent an entity opposing God, and as the ruler of Hell. Lucifer (sometimes called The Morning Star - oddly enough, like Venus and Isis...) is the angel who led the angels in rebellion against the Hebrew God and was cast down from Heaven... He's inherited the title, if you will, of Satan (THE Adversary).

*hey - I did learn something in Old Testament class...*


Bodhi - Cell 617

There are some wierd theories about how the God who battled The morning star is not the true God, but instead a God who is trying to control and decieve us and The morning star tried to free us from his captive bonds, and lost the battle in the sky and went to Venus. Thus, Venus is called the Morning star by some. See a book called Nos: The Book of Resurrection' by Miguel Serrano, here is an excerpt. He was good friends with Carl Jung, which doesn't really matter, I just thought I would mention it.


-Quotes-

if i'm not mistaken doesn't the pharoah in moses' time also refer to himself as the morning star?

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Gilbert brought up an interesting point a while back.

Jesus and Lucifer the same person?

We had some good discussion about Lucifer and how that name came about from Isaiah 14:12.
I had pointed out:

quote:

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During Isaiah's time Assyria had conquered Judah *and* Babylon. But a century later, Babylon was the conquering nation. It is very possible this reference to the "morning star" was meant for the leader of Babylon at that time, Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon was soon to be defeated by Cyrus of Persia. Isaiah 14:12 is foretelling the fall of Babylon. Ok, so there's some background on the history.

The Hebrew word used here is "helel" which literally means "The Shining One". It likely refered to the planet Venus. Venus is the brightest planet in our sky. During the right time of year it can be seen in the morning hours preceeding the sunrise. The word "Lucifer" comes from latin translations of the verse where it means "light bringer". Interestingly, the same word is translated as Phosphoros in Greek translations. This is the only place this Hebrew word is used in the Bible.

I think the context of this chapter most likely refers to the King of Babylon. Just like Venus, or The Morning Star, is soon overpowered by the daylight, so to would Babylon be eclipsed by Persia. But there are also things attributed to Nebuchadnezzar that seem very unearthly like equating himself with the Most High and being fallen from Heaven and such. So it may be that he was seen to be an instrument of Satan himself during this time and so we can sort of overlay these descriptions of both of them from these verses in Isaiah chapter 12.

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[edit] DOH! Fig, we posted almost the same time. I think the only argument for a reference in the OT to the "Morning Star" can be made for the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar. I added more in the quote above about it.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 04-29-2003).]

The Great Dragon

The Originl Serpent

The Father of the Lie

(from the book of Revelation)


...xpi...

"nuff said"

Just don't ever call him "Butt Lips". That one really gets him pissed off...

Do you think Satan enters thur the Quija(?)Board, like in the movie the Exorcist? What is the explanation for the movement of that thing when you ask it a question? I have seen it work before.

I dunno, I've never tried it, but my Dad did when he was a kid, said it frightened him pretty bad.

I've seen em work before, though, and thought that it must of been magnets or something, but after seeing on work where the possibility of magnets was impossible, I dunno. I personally think that it's god demonic implications, but I have no proof.

jade - you have seen this work before?

surely attending that sort of sayance goes totally against your beliefs.

Unless Satan is your subconscious mind, then no. Ouija boards are not tools for communicating with spirits. Of any sort.

Hmm...I'd think that it is satanic forces influencing them to work. And, no, you don't have to be attending any sort of ritual or sayance. I've see nthem at parties, or just as commonplace items in some peoples houses.

The Yezidi of northern Iraq are accussed of being devil-worshippers as they worship a form of Satan who they call The Peacock Angel (Malak Taus). Although it is really a mix of other religions and Satan is revered because he made the material world and was forgiven and his tears of redemption put out the fires of Hell. They also have a tabboo against lettuce (although why isn't really clear).

To be honest something must be wrong as the background music on this site is appalling:
www.yezidi.net

See also:
www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id1340/pg1/
http://altreligion.about.com/library/faqs/bl_yezidism.htm
www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/2153/yezidi.html

They even have their own Google directory:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Zoroastrianism/Yezidism/

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Satan inside a Quija(?)Board....

I mean, come on you guys this isn't the middle ages. Satan is only the personification of what we consider to be evil. There are spirits that are what we would consider evil, or perhaps selfish, and some are just angry because they are stuck here on earth in their spirit form, and they can enter an Quija(?)Board and communicate.

There is also a hierarchy of devils, which is based on all sorts of things, but you will see no mention of Satan. I mean, just to make sure, is the name Satan even used in the bible? And if not, where exactly did it come from?

-Other intersting links-
satan_history.htm
www.2think.org/
hades.html


.quotes.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-14-2003).]

Rtma, MD

I don't doubt the "Satan" really does exist. I went to a party when I was young and we did play with it. I remember we asked it a question and it gave us the right answer. It really scared all of us. I think that board game is an opening or commmunicating Satan utilizes in this world. Ive never played it since, but later it came out on the Exorcist and I thought it really was a portal to Satan. Since I believe in good spirits, I also believe in bad spirits. I remember my friend recently told me, her teens were playing with the board on the front porch and it freaked them out, so they went and put it in a dumpster down the corner of the street to rid of it. When they woke up the next morning the game board was on the front porch in front of the door. This put the spooks in them.

GN.

I would agree with you too on trapped spirits being able to communiate via the Quija board but this would also have to include the demonic spirts as well.


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-14-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-14-2003).]

why does it have to be satan?

Maybe it's god.
Maybe it's great grandad, or unlce pete.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that satan would have far more important things to do than anwering questions about the colors of teenage girls underwear and the like...so I have a really hard time seeing satan hanging around waiting for people to pick up a ouija board.

DL-44

Didn't the movie "Ghost" make you think communicating with the dead was possible.

I honestly don't know if communicating with the dead is possible, that includes "saints". But I do know that the attempt at communicating with the dead is prohibited in the bible. So as a Xian, I wouldn't bother with it. And any Xian who is intimidated by demonic activity has only to remind them of the victory to send them on their not-so-merry way. I have never personally witnessed any demonic activity but I have heard several first hand accounts of those who have. My mind remains open on this subject.

norm, if "butt lips" gets him going, just imagine how bad "booger lips" would be!



. . : slicePuzzle

Bugs - Communication with the dead is not allowed????

Wouldn't Jesus technically be considered dead, since he has no physical body? Thats all spirits are...

He is in spirit form. So therefore when people talk to Jesus, they are really talking to someone who is dead?

And are there not examples in the bible where prophets get messages from spirits/angels/saints besides God and Jesus?

{edit - and by the way communication with the dead/spirits is definatly possible.}

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-14-2003).]

Yes, it is prohibited.

Speaking to God the Father through Jesus the Son is praying to God. That is not the same thing as trying to contact dead human beings.

Prophets by definition received revelations from God and his messengers, angels. Angels are not dead. But there are no instances where prophets spoke with dead people. If they did, they would have broken the OT law which would have been a problem.

GN, how do you know it is possible?

Bugs, I can't agree with you on

"speaking to the dead is prohibited" Where in the bible does it say that? I think the bible says the opposite.

When we are sick or have difficulites, we ask our family and friends to pray for us? Doesn't this go for our family & friends in the afterlife? How do we know they don't see us or connect with us? And why does our friends prayers on earth help us? Why don't we pray directly to Jesus. Do we tell our family and friends their prayers will not work? When we do ask them to pray for us aren't they interceding on our behalf? Sort of like an intecessors.

Well,
No matter what I say it doesn't really matter, would it actually change your mind?
But anyway, I've had contact with my Grand-pa quite a bit (And some other strange things),
but I don't really like to talk about it because most people just think the idea is absurb. It's really easy though, you just concentrate on the person, ask a person, or just say hi, and then silent your mind and see what happens.

quote:

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Link - ?Unconscious assumptions prevent most people from communicating with ancestors or ancestor spirits, since the commonly held belief is that communication with the dead is not possible. Even those who believe in the continuity of some form of consciousness after death rarely take the further step of attempting to establish communication. Of course, practitioners in various culturally marginal traditions, such as spiritualists, spiritists, mediums, psychics, or channels, do claim such communication. Actually, in most societies the world over where the Euro-American worldview is not exclusively dominant, communication with deceased ancestors is an accepted and normal part of social reality. No metaphysical bias prevents such people from looking to their ancestors for both the origins and the solutions to many of their problems. This practice is sometimes mistakenly referred to as ?ancestor worship,? though it is nothing of the kind. The deceased ancestors are not worshiped; they are respected, just as they were when alive. Whenever possible, one maintains communication with them for the purpose of receiving guidance.?

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.quotes.

Bugs, I'm no master of verse. Please help me.
What is your take on Matthew 17:3 "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus." or Mark 9:4 "And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus."

I'm not saying I believe one can talk with spirits, the dead or anything else. I'm not clear on that yet. You did, however, say that speaking with the dead is prohibited in your religion. I believe there is verse to support that, but there are also these two verses.

Luke 9:33 simply speaks of 'two men' while Peter (who did not know what he was saying) offers to build three shelters.
It seems John avoids the story completely.
Hmmm...

Your thoughts, please.

**************************************************
"speaking to the dead is prohibited"
**************************************************

Even in Chatrooms and Forums? Please say it ain't so.........

[Emp edit: Just shortening the stars as it is creating the HSBoD for those on low resolutions]

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 05-16-2003).]

norm:

quote:

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*********************************************
"speaking to the dead is prohibited"
****************************************************

Even in Chatrooms and Forums? Please say it ain't so.........

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I'm afraid you have confused the dead with the brain dead.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Jade - I am split on the issue of whether communication with the dead is possible. I tend to think not, as I tend to think there is nothing coherent left of a person when they die.

No, 'Ghost' had no effect on my opinion of the matter

But, either way, I'm unsure how my post spawned that question

the dead know nothing

did you consider that whoever or whatever you are (or think you are) communicating with is very much alive?

Jade- I don't believe in Satan. But that is not why I don't believe that particular spirit manifests itself in the Ouija board. Now granted, I don't know what question you asked the board that prompted such a response. I played around with the Ouija Board when I was younger myself. My friend and I asked it all manner of questions. Some were silly, some were profound. The answers we got we felt were honest... but that was because deep down, we already knew the answers to the questions we were asking. Then you also have to take into account the other person touching the board... Are they giving it just that little extra nudge? How do you know that pull you feel is from their fingers or not? I'm sure they wouldn't own up to it. I know I didn't...

As for this...

quote:

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. I remember my friend recently told me, her teens were playing with the board on the front porch and it freaked them out, so they went and put it in a dumpster down the corner of the street to rid of it. When they woke up the next morning the game board was on the front porch in front of the door. This put the spooks in them.

---

Well, that could be explained by any number of things, most of them hardly supernatural. Very likely one of the other players put it on their front porch to incite that very "spooked" reaction.
I guess it also kinda concerns me a little that pop culture movies, like "Ghost" and "The Exorcist" have such an influence on your thinking. Remember, Hollywood sensationalizes and very rarely ever gets its facts straight.

And for those of you who are interested, I found this little blurb of an article with a brief history of the Ouija Board. It seems in synch with a book I read a while ago on the topic while I was researching various divination techniques.

If a Ouija board had been proven to actually have the capability of summoning spirits, evil or not, do you really think that Milton Bradley would have been able to market it as a board game? Unless you also harbor the opinion that Milton Bradley is an agent of the devil...

Don't be silly.

In most of the studies involving supernatural activity, the Ouija board has not been proven to work at all in that manner. All movements have been atributed to minute movements in the hands of the people using the board. Now, you could say that some "spirit" coerced a player to move the trivet in that direction - but that's not proveable either. The concept of a Ouija board has been around for a long time. It was a big part of Victorian seances. Along with table tipping and tea leaf readings... Victorian era people really enjoyed playing with those things, though most of those activities were pretty obviously faked.

A related aside: Harry Houdini was always searching for a way to contact his mother after her death. He debunked literally hundreds of mediums across the world. He was never able to successfully contact her. He also set up a code with his wife that after his death, if she could contact him through a medium successfully, the message would direct her to a specific passage in a specific book. The message was never successfully delivered.

I suppose there are some of you who believe that James van Praagh is actually speaking to people's dead relatives? You've heard of him, right? He's been on television and on tours around the US, at least, setting up seminars at which he "randomly" picks people out of the audience and contacts their dead relatives through his mental "powers".

BTW: Bugs - Would you please cite where it says in the Bible that speaking with the dead is prohibited... I've never heard that before. I'm curious.

edit - MD, I should have read your link first! DOH!
Bodhi - Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 05-15-2003).]

I guess a good thing to do would be to have the people using it close their eyes, with someone watching and recording what happens.

quote:

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No matter what I say it doesn't really matter, would it actually change your mind?

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GN, it most certainly could. I really do listen to everyone hear and consider their points of view. I have changed my position on several issues so far in my life and every one because of good arguments presented by people I respect. If learning from each other wasn?t possible around here, then it would be a very sad state of affairs. People come to this place to learn all sorts of awesome technical stuff? there is no reason we can?t do the same with philosophy and silliness

I will tell you the truth that I do not know who or what people contact during these efforts to speak with the dead. I am not even sure they are actually speaking to anything. I simply don?t have enough data to make that determination and so I?m open to hearing more about it.

The fact that I believe conjuring spirits is a sin doesn?t speak to whether or not it is really possible to do. IOW, it may in fact be possible but just not a good idea.

Your description is not the kind of speaking I was imagining. I was thinking more about audible voices that could be witnessed by a group of people in a room like in a séance.

quote:

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"speaking to the dead is prohibited" Where in the bible does it say that? I think the bible says the opposite.

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Jade, I need to correct what I said. I should say that seeking information from the dead via spiritism is prohibited. You make very valid remarks about intercessory prayer. We most certainly should ask others to pray for us, the more the better. I understand the arguments for praying to saints for intercessory prayer and I have come to the conclusion that while it is never mentioned in the bible, that it can't hurt as long as it's not abused or substituted for prayer to the Father through the Son.

On a practical matter, I think Catholics go entirely too far with praying to saints. I understand that the theology as taught by your church on this subject is ok. But the way it is practiced by a large number of the flock is far from ok. Just as with the Mother of God, far too many Catholics cross the boundary from veneration to worship. Big problem, that.

But back to the topic of conjuring the dead or spirits. That is definitely prohibited as I will go on to show.

quote:

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Bugs, I'm no master of verse. Please help me.
What is your take on Matthew 17:3 "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus."...
Your thoughts, please.

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mobrul, the transfiguration is described in the "synoptic" gospels. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called that because they basically recount much of the same occurrences in Jesus' life in the "same view" which is what synoptic means. John was written much later and to a different audience and therefore covers things from a slightly different view point.

My take on the Transfiguration as it relates to talking with the dead is that Jesus Christ had access to the "other side" throughout His time here on earth. If you feel inclined to believe the devil, even he said as much when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. I am saying this was a special case. It was special because it was done by the Son of God and it does not apply to why we shouldn't conjure up the dead.

Now I want to lay out why I say it's prohibited from a reading of the biblical text. In the OT, we have an account of the last days of King Saul. Samuel has already died and God had abandoned Saul so he turned to other means. Keep in mind this was the king of Israel at the time.

quote:

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.
1 Samuel 28 (full chapter)

...He inquired of the LORD , but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her...

... Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said....

... Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

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quote:

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So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also (2) because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,...
--1 Chronicles 10

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quote:

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When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
--Isaiah 8

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The Mosaic law most definitely prohibited the practice. Leviticus spells out page after page of rules and regulations. Here's one that directly addressed this issue:

quote:

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'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
--Leviticus 19:31

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And if you didn't get enough of the Law the first time it was spelled out by Moses, we have the book of Deuteronomy that actually means "second law":

quote:

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"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
"For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
--Deuteronomy 18

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Bottom line: I don't know for sure whether it is possible but even if it is, Xians should not be doing it. God is wholly sufficient when it comes to anything we may or may not be able to get from conjuring up the dead.

One question Bugs - since the men who wrote those passages were inspired by God (if I understand that correctly), then God is saying that we (Mankind) shouldn't attempt talking to the dead. Isn't that proof enough, that it is possible? Otherwise, why make a law (or laws) against it?

Or is this a way of contacting Satan?

In any event, I'm curious...

Excellent question! I would say, no. I have thought about this before and it certainly could mean it's possible or it could mean that you are not talking to who you think you are on the other end. outcydr already mentioned that and there are a lot of people who think you are really conversing with evil spirits and not dead humans at all.

But here is another spin that I would like you to consider. What is your opinion of John Edwards... you know the guy on the SciFi channel who talks to dead relatives? I consider him a complete fraud and a very hurtful person for taking advantage of people longing to speak with dead loved ones. I believe he is lying to them, or himself, so much that it is borderline criminal behavior. I think it is very possible that the writers of the Law were just as aware of this as we are and that is why it was banned.

WebShaman, consider this:

quote:

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then God is saying that we (Mankind) shouldn't attempt talking to the dead. Isn't that proof enough, that it is possible? Otherwise, why make a law (or laws) against it?

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No, it's not. I'd agree with Bugs on this one, but I have something to add. Suppose that a large number of people started drinking "substance X" because they thought that it would make them fly. Now, substance X can't make you fly, all it can do is slowly destroy synapses in your brain. If a large number of people bought Substance X and drank it, it would come to someones attention and either (a) Substance X would be prohibited or (b) your would get jail time and a fine for drinking Substance X.

IMHO, it's kinda like that.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-16-2003).]

Hmmm...

Well, I can see the point of prohibiting it, because of fraud, certainly. But it wouldn't have be a Law coming from God, to do that...and why would God really care if it really wasn't possible? Now, re-reading many of those passages that were quoted, it specifically mentions that this information is coming from God...that He doesn't want Mankind doing this. However, it doesn't really give a reason (or reasons) why...which is pretty typical for most of God's Laws, come to think of it...so what? We are left to debate over the why? *sigh* All I wanted was a straight answer...according to the Bible, is it possible to contact and speak with the dead? If so, wouldn't that be evidence that there might, indeed, be either an afterlife, or the existence of beings that we cannot see...on a 'spiritual' level, so to speak. I find it rather strange, that God would prohibit such research...why is He always trying to hold us back? Imagine, we could have both sides of the fence working on this one (science and creation) were it not for this stupid 'law' and the fact that the subject is not taken seriously (or seen as taboo). That tends to irritate me...from this type of research, we could maybe make some huge breakthroughs...in fact, there are many things like this that irritate me about God, and the Bible...it seems, time and again, we get held back by these 'laws'...why would God do this? I get the feeling, that it is not God at all, but Man doing this...in the name of God. That tends to bother me. Sorry for the small rant, but it is something that I can make no real sense of.

As for the guy on TV...heh. Do I think he can really talk to the spirits? Nope. Most of those that I know, who can (or believe that they can), would never make a public spectacle of this...among my people, this is a very serious topic, and sacred. I believe that this guy is doing a huge disfavor to any one that takes the subject seriously...or wishes to be taken seriously. It's crackpots like this, that gives the subject a bad name...and stifles the seriousness of anyone trying to research it. Just try to get funding to research this topic, or be taken seriously...and people like this guy are not helping matters...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-16-2003).]

would one of the madsci's fix this forum.. monitor wide sentences are impossible
to read
tia

[edit - thanks emps, the thread is liquid again ]

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 05-18-2003).]

Ummm...monitor wide sentences? I don't see any...

Just to clarify - I personally, don't think that James van Praagh can do what he claims, and I have pretty good reasons for not believing it. I was mostly just curious to see if there was anyone who did believe he could do it. Considering that the conversation was turning to whether something like the Ouija board actually worked...

I thought it appropriate in the sense that you (in general) believe that the Ouija board can contact the spirit world - how 'bout this guy who says he can reach your dead grandmother?

Thanks for the verses, Bugs - I remember our OT discussions about that now... been a few years though. That memory almost went *poof*!

Bodhi - Cell 617

quote:

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GN, it most certainly could. I really do listen to everyone hear and consider their points of view.

---

Sorry Bugs...

And there has been proof of people actually hearing the voices (audible) of dead spirits. I can't remember where I was reading, but the thing I was reading was talking about a young girl who talked to this spirit by a barn on her land. Several people witnessed this and even some people from a newspaper. I think it was in the mid-1940's. I am sort of busy, but will see if I can find a link. Or if you maybe search for 'girl, barn, voices, spirit' or something, you could find it.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-16-2003).]

I'm a little baffled at what you consider "proof".

Some people heard a girl by a barn talking to a voice....so that's proof we can comminicate with the dead

Based on that kind of evidence, I can prove to you that I'm super man...

You are superman, DL...at least in my eyes [sigh]

And Bugs, thank you for your response to my question.

double post

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-17-2003).]

quote:

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PARANORMAL VOICES - There are many similar poltergeist incidents. One of them took place in Canada in 1889 and was researched by Percy Woodcock for the Brockville Recorder and Times. A family in Clarendon had adopted an 11-year old orphan. Not long after her arrival at the farm all sorts of puzzling events occurred. The reporter took the girl to a barn behind the house. She said: "Are you there, Sir?". To his amazement he heard a gruffy voice answer at a distance of five feet. Woodcock thoroughly searched the barn but could not find an explanation. Thereupon he asked the girl to fill her mouth with water. Yet, the voice came again. He took the girl to the parlour of the farm where about twenty neighbours had gathered. They all heard the voice in her vicinity uttering foul language for quite some time.

---

So, Superman...I heard that Lex Luthar is planning on destroying Chicago with a new machine he created that makes tornados the size of the Mount Everest...What are we to do?

There's also this...

quote:

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PARANORMAL VOICES - Impressive was the direct voice phenomenon of the late Leslie Flint, see photo (1911-1994). This British medium has been tested many times. The voices manifesting in space in his vicinity could be heard by everyone present and were recorded on tape by some of them.

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.quotes.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-17-2003).]

Jade, I thought what you said was very interesting.

Wnen I was 19 and begining to develope spritual leanings I read a book on demonism that kinda spooked me. The beliefs I had suggested that this kind of material was reather unhealty reading, so in a effert to purge myself I removed all things that conflicted with my beliefs. I took the book outside and put it right in the bottom of the garbage can under all the other trash at the end of the drive. I actually watched the garbage truck arrive (at 7am) and take all the trash away. Good I thought. Evening came and I went to bed. In the morning I came downstairs and what do I see? The book was laying on the kitchen table. I was alone at home for those few days so nobody could have brought it back in. The second time I tore it into little peices, put it in the trash can again.. watched the garbage man take it away... this time it did not return. I have had numerous experiences like this over the years. These things are not a matter of belief or faith, they actually happen. Whether I believe or not is irrelevant, they actually happen in the indesputable physical world. i can't argue with it any more, it's real. It happens too often.


Ecclesiastes chapter 9 says:

[4] For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

So if the dead are dead and gone and 'have no portion in anything', when those spirit mediums and whoever claim to contact the dead who or what are they actually contacting?

A major feature of spritism is claimed communication with the dead. Since the dead " are conscious of nothing at all," communication with such dead persons is actually impossible (Ec 9:5) God's law to Israel forbade anyone inquiring of the dead and made the practice of spritism a capital offence. (Le 19:31; 20:6,27; De 18:9-12; compare Isa 8:19) And in Christian Greek Scriptures the statement is made that those who practice such things "will not inherit God's kingdom" (Ga 5:20.21; Rev 21:8) It therefore logically follows that any claimed communication, must be from an evil source that stands in opposition to God. The bible clearly indicates that wicked sprirts, demons are this eveil source. A case in point is "a certain servant girl" in the city of Philippi. She used to furnish her masters with much gain by practicing "the art of prediction", one of those things related to spiritism.(De 18:11) The account plainly says that the source of her predictions was not God, but "a demon devination," a wicked spirit. Hence when the apostle Paul expelled the wicked spirit, this girl lost her power of prediction (Atcs 16:16-19) Regarding the Greek expresion pneu'-ma py-the-na, here renddered "a demon of divination," Vines Expository of Old and New Testament Words (Vol 1, p.328) says: "Py-thon, in Greek mythology was a name of the Pythian serpent or dragon, dwelling in Pytho, at the foot of mount Parnassus, guarding the oracle of Delphi, and slain by Apollo. Thence the name was transferred to Apollo himself. Later the word was applied to deviners or soothsayres, regarding as inspiring idolatry, 1 Cor, 10:20, the young woman in Acts 16:16 was possesed by a ddemon instigating the cult of Apollo, and thus had a spirit od divination.


[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-17-2003).]

X, I have had several people recount similar stories to me. I have never witnessed any such thing but so many of the people I respect claim these things happen. It's hard to dismiss.

Gilbert - I'm still waiting for the "proof" part of that

Those are stories that relate that at some point, some people somewhere heard voices.
Which first of all, may not be true at all (remember the salem witch trials, and all of their false testimony?). Which second of all, even if it *was* proven that voices were there, still does not prove by *any* stretch that they are the voices of the dead.

As for that tornado attack - yeah, I took care of it. Lex is imprisoned in the center of the earth right now. ( <-- proof!).

DL - Yea, I know its not concrete or anything, but its pretty interesting. How exactly could you get concrete proof of a voice from a dead person talking?What kind of concrete proof? A formula, a chart, a mathmatical equation, a sample of the speciment? I don't really know how they could get any concrete proof, even if there was a tape recorder and a camera, or some news crew. The only concrete proof would have to be you witnessing it itself, right? So, how can 'you' then; prove that it doesn't exist?

Xpirex - If you look at the bible from a distance. I mean, try and imagine reading the bible from an analytical, outside force with no spiritaul attachment. Ok now think this thought....imagine that there were a bunch of super-tough humans a long time ago who could see into the future, use their minds to heal themselves, talk to their dead ancestors for help in solving problems and figuring things out, could walk on water, move things with their mind, you know, all the cool things that are claimed to be possible by various healers and psychic. Now, imagine that all that stuff was real, and that all humans could do it. Imagine you were an outside source, even more powerful than humans and you were this outside powerful race of people coming to this planet who likes to rule and control other planets. Now this race of people would most likely come to the conclusion that to control them, they should do it by spiritual means. Hence, they created a whole idea structure with them as the Gods. They thought to themselves...what if these people could later become super powerful, and destroy us and our powerful rule...We must make a book...yes, several books for each continent, each language. And we will teach these people that it is bad to use their gifts, that their ancestors are really talking demons....that we are the only true God....that if they disobey our ideas, they will go to hell....and everything else that is in the old testament. Now of course, this is maybe not true, but just as much a possiblity as anything else.

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-19-2003).]

Testamonials in themselves are not sufficient proof that spirits exist and can communicate with the living. Controlled experiments need to be set up in order to eliminate all other factors before communication with spirits can actually be said to be proven.

For some people, a recording or testimonial is enough. For the scientific community, it is not.

With the consumer level availability of high tech digital A/V equipment, there is more investigation than ever of these types of events. At some point, the scientific community is going to have to make some changes to their stance on it, I'm sure. They're not all hoaxes.

After watching some ghost hunting special on TLC or Discovery or something, I formulated my own theory about it. I think that hauntings are echoes. Not of current events - but from the past. I think energy can be trapped in a temporal location, and can be re-experienced by sensitive people. It's just speculation - I've never had the opportunity to check it out, and I'm not certain that it could be checked out... it sure would be an interesting study though.

Bodhi - Cell 617

Could it be that the more spiritually open minded are contacted because they are more receptive?

I had an encounter when I was 22. My husband & were asleep one night & I remember I was dreaming, and I could hear someone calling and I remember I didn't want to wake up from this good dream but the voice kept getting louder and louder. When I finally woke, I looked toward to where the voice was coming from and saw a small boy around 7yrs old dressed in white standing at the edge of the door. I remember he was wearing a suit, but his pants where short and his hair was black combed to the side. He was just looking at me intently not saying a word. I thought I must be seeing things and rubbed by eyes to see clearer. He was still there. At this point I became afraid and woke up my husband to look at this boy, but he was gone. Afterwards, I edged closer to my husband and cried myself to sleep out of fear. As I am now older I regret never asking the boy who he was or what he wanted. I do not know if this was of good or bad. I would like to believe it was of good, because I believe that the evil spirits can also trick you. I never asked for this contact. It just came to me. So sometimes I think we have no control over the spirit, be it good or bad to get in touch with us.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-19-2003).]

GN - getting concrete proof would require an awful lot of documentation under the proper circumstances. The fact that we have never gotten such documentation under such circumstances leaves me pretty skeptical. What exactly would suffice as proof? I'm not sure i can really answer that.

But there's a *huge* leap from "some people said this girl heard a voice 150 years ago" to "this is proof we can speak with the dead".

As I said, by using that as "proof" of any sort - or even as any realistic indication of the event really happening - you open the door for absolutely anything to enter the picture as a credible resource, and you eliminate any possibility of discovering what is true.

Thats weird Jade, but I've heard of it before, but never a first-hand experiences.

I guess that I have a "first hand" experience to share here as well, which is justification enough to me that their is some type of spirit world:

When I was about 5, maybe 6, I forgot exatcly when, my parents were having some maritial trouble, and were fighting a lot. In any case, my Dad was in my room, and I told him that something was on the wall. He looked back and nothing was there. I said it again, and still nothing. Then he said that he got a more or less (crazy, out of the blue) notion that maybe he should pray about it. After doing so, it was gone, and the tension between him and my Mom let up significantly. He is certain that too this day it was some type of (negative) spirit or demon, or whatever you want to call them.

In any case, I only vaguelt remember it, but it seems logical that it might of been a spirit or demon that was somehow working to break the marriage. Don't laugh, but I beleive that it is true.

In responce to what Bohdi has to say, about setting up controls and limiting variables for testing, I really don't
(beleive)
think that God works that way, most of the time. I have heard the
(urban legend)
story about the school teacher that dropped the pen, after saying: If God exists, he'll prevent this pen from falling to the floor," and instead of the pen falling, it rolled down his shirt sleeve, down his pants and finally stopped on his shoe. But, then again, thats just a story that has been twisted and distorted by the internet. But, in general, I don't think that God presents himself to people that are seeking him, or seeking truth, either conventinally or though other means.

Other "proof" that I have comes from Mike Warnke's "The Satan Seller." I know that it's not "proof," but I more or less beleive the story. In it, he is talking to a cab driver about his practicies and involvment in Satanism, and the cab driver says: prove it. So, he gets out of the car, and summons a demon, intent on making it destroy a gas station. Evidently, according to the book (and if I remember correnctly, I read it about two yeras ago), it either caught fire several hours later or within a period of minutes.

Do spirits have to be from God? As I recall, even the Bible mentions spirits that exist apart from God... whether you relegate them to Heaven or Hell, I think is debatable depending on the situation at hand.

The question of proof came up in discussion about speaking with the dead. That would not necessarily be God revealing himself to anyone... Just spirits chatting with the living. In order for "proof" to be considered by the scientific community, it has to have been obtained using scientific method. If not - it's not considered scientific.

Surely, God reveals himself to those who seek him - and sometimes to those who do not know they are seeking him... But in the context of the current discussion - it's not relevant.

My point was merely that to consider evidence in a supernatural situation, certain controls must be set up in order to eliminate certain variables. It's how you perform a scientific experiment... An experiment must prove one hypothesis, while at the same time disproving another hypothesis...

Bodhi - Cell 617

quote:

---

The question of proof came up in discussion about speaking with the dead. That would not necessarily be God revealing himself to anyone... Just spirits chatting with the living. In order for "proof" to be considered by the scientific community, it has to have been obtained using scientific method. If not - it's not considered scientific.

---

Ok, sorry to go around digging up the dead here, but how about evolution. I don't know if you beleive it or not (and personally, it makes no diffrence), but he fact is that the scientific community has embraced that, and yet. in a controlled enviorment, they haven't created life.

Oh...Sorry. For any of you who don't know what I'm talking about. A few months ago, around last summer, there were a lot of threads about evolution vs. creation.

Ok....so please, explain to me what scientists creating life in a laboratory would have to do with evolution?

And how either concept applies to the current discussion...?

You're trying to compare something that has a boatload of scientific evidence behind to a story that appeared in a newspaper a humdred years ago as it was told by people who heard a girl talk to a voice behind a barn...?

~general confusion~



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 05-21-2003).]

jade:

quote:

---

I had an encounter when I was 22. My husband & were asleep one night & I remember I was dreaming, and I could hear someone calling and I remember I didn't want to wake up from this good dream but the voice kept getting louder and louder. When I finally woke, I looked toward to where the voice was coming from and saw a small boy around 7yrs old dressed in white standing at the edge of the door.........

---

Thats very interesting - we had a discussion about Night Terrors/The Hag and that fits in with that kind of thing - you can clearly see the continuity between these kind of waking dreams and stories of alien abduction, demonic/angelic visitations, etc.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Well, I'm saying that neither can be reproduced in a labratory, yet one is accepted and one isn't. I know that their's more to it, but that's pretty much how it seems to me.

Evolution has been re-created in a lab...many times, on a microscopic scale...but you know that.

But long-scale evolution is kinda hard to re-create in a lab - it takes hundreds of thousands of years....and until life expectancies go way up, is unlikely to occur...

Yes, I know that it has, but evolution, where (a) species change into a diffrent species has never been proven. Mutations have occured, and the Bible backs it up (indirectly). Look at Noahs Ark, if the story is true, and we take a creature like the dog, then two of them would of had to breed and mutate into the various forms of dog today. See, mutations occur, micro-evolution occurs, but macro-evolution, and the change from one species to another (the infamous missing link) has never been proven. I'm not saying, either, that evolution isn't possible. I just beleive that it isn't.

If it were possible, though..

...But this is off the subject. Sorry. Continue on, and it was a bad example.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-21-2003).]

The 'infamous' missing link, has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, again, and again, and again (how about those fossils of a 4 winged lizard/bird?) How about the fossil remains of Whales, that walked on land? And on, and on, and on...

There are even examples alive today...mammals, that are cold-blooded, the Platypus (mammal that lays eggs, the Galapagos Iguanas (have adapted to Sea Water) etc...

Cfb, Evolution has been proven...it's the process itself that is still being refined, and identified...i.e. how and why this occurs...

This is not a question of belief...as Creationism is.

It's obvious that Noah's Ark could not have re-populated the Earth with animals...first of all, there would have to have been mutations on a scale never witnessed before...to get the present diversity. Second, where are the Dinosaurs, then? Third, how did the predator population survive? For them to survive, it would then have meant the extincition of large groups of other animals...just doesn't work.

I know this is kinda off the subject. But there is a possibility the story of Noahs Ark might not have really happened the way we read it. Just like other stories of the bible that really didn't happen they way they did. For instance was Jonah really in the whale for 3 days? Or did Adam & Eve really share an apple? To me these were stories the writers used to make it easier to get the point across. And wants more important the story or the message it conveys. Like a campfire story being handed down thur the ages because for a time nothing was written about it. It was just an oral story. This being said, I read the story of Noahs Ark is symoblic. If there are other Christians out there who know more about this, let us know. But the story is about a people who turned away from God in their journey in life and were cast into darkness, but the family who lived right with God thru baptism(water of flood representing baptism as a new birth of the soul) will be have eternal life thur the Ark(Ark wood which symoblzes the cross of Jesus) which will carry them to the eternal peace with God(dove is symbol of peace) to a land (which represents heaven).
There is more to his view as far as detail but I don't remember like the raining for 40 days/nites also symbolic. And also giving the message of the coming of the Jesus the savior. But Adam & Eve, Cain and Abel, Job and Jonah are all basically written for the same purpose. And all inspired to convey who God is thru his actions. So this maybe might have nothing to do with creationism or evolution.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-21-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-21-2003).]

Something I found on Evolution for WebShamens 'facts...'

"As a matter of fact, many leading evolutionists have recognized the essentially " religious" character of evolutionism. Even though they themselves believe evolution to be true, they acknowledge the fact that they believe it! "Science", however, is not supposed to be something one "believes". Science is knowledge?that which can be demonstrated and observed and repeated. Evolution cannot be proved, or even tested; it can only be believed.

For example, two leading evolutionary biologists have described modern neo-Darwinism as "part of an evolutionary dogma accepted by most of us as part of our training". 1 A prominent British biologist, a Fellow of the Royal Society, in the Introduction to the 1971 edition of Darwin's Origin of Species, said that "belief in the theory of evolution" was "exactly parallel to belief in special creation", with evolution merely "a satisfactory faith on which to base our interpretation of nature". 2 G.W. Harper calls it a "metaphysical belief". 3

Ernst Mayr, the outstanding Harvard evolutionary biologist, calls evolution "man's world view today". 4 Sir Julian Huxley, probably the outstanding evolutionist of the twentieth century saw "evolution as a universal and all-pervading process"5 and, in fact, nothing less than "the whole of reality". 6 A leading evolutionary geneticist of the present day, writing an obituary for Theodosius Dobzhansky, who himself was probably the nation's leading evolutionist at the time of his death in 1975, says that Dobzhansky's view of evolution followed that of the notorious Jesuit priest, de Chardin.

The place of biological evolution in human thought was, according to Dobzhansky, best expressed in a passage that he often quoted from Pierre Teilhard de Chardin: '(Evolution) is a general postulate to which all theories, all hypotheses, all systems must henceforward bow and which they must satisfy in order to be thinkable and true. Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a trajectory which all lines of thought must follow.? 7
The British physicist, H.S. Lipson, has reached the following conclusion.

In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it. 8
The man whom Dobzhansky called "France's leading zoologist", although himself an evolutionist, said that scientists should "destroy the myth of evolution" as a simple phenomenon which is "unfolding before us". 9 Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, by any accounting one of the world's top evolutionists today, has recently called evolution "positively anti-knowledge", saying that "all my life I had been duped into taking evolutionism as revealed truth". 10 In another address he called evolution "story-telling". 11 All of the above-cited authorities are (or were) among the world's foremost authorities on evolutionism. Note again the terms which they use in describing evolution.

Evolutionary dogma A scientific religion
A satisfactory faith The myth of evolution
Man's world view Anti-knowledge
All-pervading process Revealed truth
The whole of reality An illuminating light
Metaphysical belief Story-telling

Charles Darwin himself called evolution "this grand view of life". Now such grandiloquent terms as these are not scientific terms! One does not call the law of gravity, for example, "a satisfactory faith", nor speak of the laws of thermodynamics as "dogma". Evolution is, indeed, a grand world view, but it is not science. Its very comprehensiveness makes it impossible even to test scientifically. As Ehrlich and Birch have said: "Every conceivable observation can be fitted into it.?No one can think of ways in which to test it". 12

Seems you have more faith then you would have us all believe...

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-22-2003).]

WebShaman, I think that your reffering to that fish that walked on land, with lungs. I saw it a LONG time ago at the zoo or somewhere. It could stay on land for a period of like 2 hours without water breathing stored air.

Well, I might be going out on a limb here, but, if you beleive in the Bible, then is their any way that God couldn't of just though: "I want to make a fish that can walk on water." I mean, if he's the "creator," then he creates things. He's creative. Right?

Of course, I don't think I've said it here, but I'm leaning towards evolutionary creationism. Because I beleive that given enough time, evolution is possible, I'm willing to accept the theory of evolution. You see evolution around you every day, especially in medicine, with antibiotic resistant viruses, and you can always use the classic beaks of birds on diffrent sides of the island story. So, yes, evolution is "right," but only in part.

I think that along with that, there was intelligent design. Think about how complex the human body is. Without one part, it would stop functioning right, more or less. Is there any way that maybe humans had "guided evolution." If you take the Bible (pseudo)literaly, then when it says that God "molded us out of clay," is it not possible that over a bajillion (unknown number) he continually reworked us untill he was happy with the final product, then he gave it a spirit.

(Oh wait, idea: Maybe a spirit is something on another plane, or a diffrent dimension, that God assigns to a body. Like, it lies dormant, just there, without a conscious mind, and then God says: Here, be (place name here)).

I mean, it fits, and it doesn't compromise the ideals of either belief, or in any way disagree with any concepts put forward.

[edit=same goes for the winged dinosaur]

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-22-2003).]

*sigh*

Ok, digging up some of my Evolution sutff, from other threads...here we go again.

First of all, Xpirex : go to this link, and read it Evolution: Facts, Fallacies, Crisis from this thread Why so many Christians hate evolution? . That should clear up any mis-understandings about Evolution...it is fact, as one can see...only the Model of Evolution is under Debate.

As for the four-winged Dinosaur, that was discussed in this thread A four-winged dinosaur...the evolutionary intermediate?

And no, Cfb, I wasn't referring to the Lungfish...I was referring to a Mammal recently discovered in Africa, that is cold blooded (i.e. it does not regulate it's own body temperature). These small, four legged rock-hills dwellers (about the size of rabbits) depend on the warming rays of the sun, to become active again (at night, their body temperatures sink to about 4 grad C).

And then there is the Platypus...lays eggs (only mammal that does), has a bill (strange, strange!), and is the only poisonous mammal there is (has venom glands and 'spikes' on the legs...)

As for Whales, and their fossil intermediaries...I'll look for it...I also posted something on this in the Asylum, but I'm not sure which thread that is...

And speaking of the Devil (tongue in cheek), this just in Speedy Evolution Detected in Windy City's Wild Mice. Interesting, isn't it?



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-22-2003).]

Didn't mean to be gone from this one so long... I missed a bunch there all of a sudden like!

The reason evolution is accepted as fact and talking to the dead is not is because of a little thing called converging evidence. In the scientific community, if enough experiments point towards a specific theory, that theory is accepted as fact. Like smoking causes cancer. It has not been proven that smoking cigarettes actually causes cancer per se, but the evidence all converges to that end.

There are always exceptions to every rule. No scientist is ever going to be able to answer all the questions that are put to them regarding evolution. When two life forms are connected, creationists want scientists to find the intermediary life form. Then when one is produced, they want the intermediary between those two, and so on and so forth. It's a vicious, neverending cycle.

But evolution is visible, as WebShaman said, on the microscopic and also on the insect levels. Lots of experiments in evolution have been done on fruit flies because of their short life spans... But scientists have also been able to view evolution on the small scale over the last 50-75 years.

All of that said, it's neither here nor there. The existence of spirits has been neither proven nor disproven in any way shape or form. There is no way to set up an experiment that will prove definitively that spirits exist or don't exist. But because of that inability to falsify the theory, studies in the paranormal are considered to be pseudoscience and not science at all.

The only reason I bring this up, is because of the remarks made concerning proof of the existence of spirits. Because such existence cannot be scientifically proven, it cannot be considered verified knowledge. It is only speculation until some way comes available to set up a scientific experiment to definitively prove or disprove the existence of spirits.

That doesn't say they don't exist, only that there is no scientific proof of it. So you can speculate all you want to, it's not going to make it so.

Bodhi - Cell 617

Gilbert, I'm still trying to bend my head round what you said, give me some time please and WebShamen I'm checking your links out too.

"nuff said"

Earlier in this series of posts somebody, I believe it was MoonDancer, mentioned that one of the names of Lucifer was Old Horny. I just wanted to say that currently I am researching the names of Satan for my Englisch 11 C.P. class and came across the name Auld Hornie so he is right though he misspelled it and if anybody else has found out anything on the subject I would appreciate the info.

.

If one match can start a forest fire then why does it take the whole box to start a BBQ Grill?

For the record, 'auld' is simply an earlier form of old.

So it wasn't a mispelling, it's simply that the source you found your name in used the older more directly germanic version of the word 'old'.

Holy digging up old threads, Batman!

[Edit: Don't ask]

[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 04-07-2004).]

(I saw that )

Shaddup.

I think I can guess what it was


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

two things:
(digging up old thread agian): Earlier in thread Ouija boards were mentioned, and that they were devil tools, I would like to say that they can be tools for either and that some Hungarians used them for generally good purposes ( I should know i have Hungarian blood) but personally i don't believe they work anymore unless they are the old fashioned kind that were handcrafted by the user. Somehow mass producing them in a machine and marketing them at the local Kmart makes them lose their power and because it is all to easy to just move the viewer to the words you want to see.

Also:
Sorry bout the misspelling thing I should have realized that auld means old in German since i am taking a class in it. I had forgotten to turn my brain on when i typed that message.
The other thing I wanted to point out is that there are people i know who actually in all seriousness think that I am the Devil himself. I don't quite know why they won't speak to me anymore.

[semantic nazi post]
Actually, "auld" is Scottish for old, not German. In German it's "alt." But you already knew that.
[/semantic nazi post]


___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org

I knew that alt was german for old, but auld sounded like a remnant from our germanic history (german and germanic not being the same thing, of course).

Not entirely clear on where scottish fits into the etymological scheme of things....

Me either ask Sean Connery

And it's time to throw the spanner into the works again

I don't know why Evolutionists and Creationists can't just make up their differences. Who knows; maybe God created evolution, and wanted to see how his creations would turn out. Wouldn't that appeal to both sides of the fence?

As for Satan, I don't know if it exists. If it does, it hasn't seen me, and I haven't seen it, so I don't care either way.



(Edited by Rameses Niblik the Third on 04-12-2004 06:34)

RN3 - that's what I always thought when confronted with the problem...

But there's a whole spectrum classifying all levels of evolutionistic belief, from Flat Earth to Theistic Evolution... Materialistic Evolution goes at the end there, meaning those folks who believe in completely natural, material evolution, with no God involved.

(Edited by bodhi23 on 04-12-2004 13:56)

Does anyone know what Satan's favorite web browser is? And is there any truth to the rumor that he is really a Perl programmer......?

as far as creationism vs. evolutionism goes whose to say tht god didn't just wake up one day and say to himself "lets make the monkey talk".

Well I don't know much about the devil but I know one thing for sure in my religion the devil's actually an angel who well questioned God's authority so God banished him to Hell and I've heard that everytime he tries to lure you towards the dark side he's actually trying to find a replacement, someone who could take his place in Hell... sounds weird I don't know why he'd want to do that, if he's thinking for God's apology well I don't think he's gonna be getting that very soon... But I don't think that's true of him finding a replacement. Heck what do we care about the devil we're all clean here, aren't we...

... e'sssaa 'de templar'e ...

whats your definition of clean??

.
[edit: point moot. I posted in responce to something on the first page, not realizing the Asylum split up threads into pages now . Sorry]

(Edited by counterfeitbacon on 04-21-2004 21:32)

I'm a satanist.


My Artwork - BMEzine.com

good for you.

quote:

---

"speaking to the dead is prohibited" Where in the bible does it say that? I think the bible says the opposite.

---

ok, and it would say that where? not necessarily doubting (tho i'm not familiar with any passage that says that) but that's kinda thing you need to back up

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

(Edited by Fig on 05-09-2004 22:32)

That's a good point. I gave chapter and verse for why I thought it was prohibited. I would very much like to see where you think it says are supposed to speak to the dead.


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

I'm thinknig that was a general reference to all the times where angels/devils/apparitions speak to people?

Hi! I'm new, nice to meet you all. When I was a kid, my friends and I all had ouija boards. The interesting thing was that they all had different personalities, no matter who was using them. Some were slow, some fast, some quiet, some talkative, and one swore frequently. We had asked questions of them that the users didn't know the answer to, but still got the right answers.

A similarity to jade's story ? I gave my kids a ouija board a few years ago. Told them how to use it. When I came home from work shortly after, the ouija board was in the garage, and both of them told me it couldn't come back in the house. It didn't. They would never talk about what happened. Curious . . .

Dragonlady

Yes, yes off topic.

DragonLady -

You don't by chance drive a silver SUV do you? If So... I've seen you. *waves* Welcome!

Yes, welcome to the Asylum, Dragonlady

DL, in the case of angels and devils, they are living beings. I'm trying to think of a case where people spoke to apparitions and I'm not recalling any at the moment other than the one I cited where Saul called up Samuel.


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

GD . . . are there no secrets??? Okay, I'm curious. Do I know you? And sorry about being off topic. I'm still learning how this works. And thanks for the welcomes!

Dragonlady

DragonLady -
Grythus Draconis lives in your neck of the woods...

Again, welcome to the Asylum! You'll likely find most of your answers in the ->FAQ... It's a good place to start, anyway.

(Edited by bodhi23 on 05-11-2004 18:31)

(Edited by bodhi23 on 05-11-2004 18:31)