Topic awaiting preservation: what is a Soul?

What is a soul, and what can have a soul?

here is my idea: A soul is the part of us that is the capacity to love. Therefore, anything that can love has a soul.


Now it's your turn.....

I personally don't believe in the soul...I believe in spirits. I believe that everthing has a spirit, and that we are interconnected through the spirit with everything else...

On a level of energy. I believe that Mankind once was aware of this, but has slowly lost the knowledge of this.

Spirit.... Soul... Soul... Spirit... Ok, Spirit works for me too.

I also believe in the connectedness of all, in a great oneness of energy. I choose to see it as Love & Beauty, all though I realize that it is everything else too. Sometimes I have the pleasure and joy of feeling the oneness; of touching it and being touched. And far too often this eludes me....

If Mankind has lost this awareness, what have we gained? What have we chosen to take it's place?

Satori.... the Zen concept of oneness. I just remembered the word.

I have felt it in the flowing movements and power of my favorite physical pursuits, I have found it (if only for a moment)in the beauty of Logic, and I have been engulfed by it in the passion of lovemaking.......

it is late and I have begun to ramble, please forgive me.

No need to apologize...I think that is exactly that, which is meant...that 'feeling of oneness'...yes. Of being interconnected...a part of the whole. Not above it, but part of it...I think this is what is lacking, in modern society...our 'denial' of our Nature...

I think master Suho has a Soul in his address...

Why yes, yes I do...
<==

I don't think that mankind has gained anything is our seperation from the rest of the... 'All' Nor have we really lost anything but understanding. I also don't know that I equate spirit with soul. Trees, rocks, and water have spirits... Love being the epitome of soul... I don't know that they qualify, by your definition anyway.

If you want my take on it... A soul is what the church says you have to lose so that they can blackmail you into being a good person. They make you believe it is the essence of who you are and nothing else matters but the state of your soul. It's bouyancy as it were. I think it's a control point enforced with guilt and ignominy. I find the soul used to seperate people from each other rather than showing us how we're all the same. How we're interconnected. This basically establishes the differences between my beliefs and those of the church and also establishes my viewpoint on the differences between souls and spirits... But that's just me. understanding your spiritual standing in the grand scheme of life will help you be a good person because everything affects you as you affect everything else.
GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 04-29-2003).]

To me a soul is our energy, which can be used how we like and can be lost or stolen.

A spirit is our eternal being that contians our soul/energy.

Very well put, GD...though I don't particularly believe in the 'soul'...

Just because everything has a spirit, doesn't make everything the same...obviously...it just interconnects us.

As for love, it's just an emotion, like any other...sometimes strong, sometimes weak.

What about the saying,

"the eyes are the windows to the soul"
Can a person look deep into ones eyes and
connect with the spirit of the soul? Soulmates?


What about when we say,
"that music really hits deep into my soul"

"Or the love I have for this person
really penetrates deep into my soul."

Are these just figures of speech?

Thanx, WS. I don't believe in 'souls' either... I was just using norm's explaination since it was at hand.

jade - Hmmm.... terminology aside, I think those are just expressions of how we feel connected to different things in our lives. I know that I am connected to my fiancee, Moon Dancer, in a way that I can't explain beyond something similar to the 'soulmate' statement. Hmmm... In the web of life there are certain threads that cross... a nexus if you will... and at those junctures things just seem to fit. Be it a the rhythm of a piece of music or the company of a certain person... things just fit better the nearer to these nexus you get. I think that's where a lot of the 'It was meant to happen' mentality comes from. Something that, whether for 'good' or 'bad' just fits into the web of life. Partly why 'good' and 'bad' don't exist for me, things fit or they don't. So yeah, they're just phrases to express what we can't explain when something touches our spirit, interacts with our being on a level beyond words.

[EDIT] BTW the plural form of Nexus is nexus or nexuses... that one boggled me for a while.
GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 04-29-2003).]

Jade,

quote:

---

"the eyes are the windows to the soul"
Can a person look deep into ones eyes and
connect with the spirit of the soul? Soulmates?


What about when we say,
"that music really hits deep into my soul"

"Or the love I have for this person
really penetrates deep into my soul."

Are these just figures of speech?

---

No, not just figures of speech, but descriptions of feelings. Can you show me this 'soul'? Where is it in a person? And at what time does a human being then have a soul? At conception? Two weeks later? Two months? What about a cloned human...does it have a soul? If so, does that mean, through cloning, Mankind can 'steal' souls from god? How many souls are there? Is there a 'fixed' amount, or is the supply endless? And where are they before they 'attach' themselves to a body? At what time do they leave the earthly shell? Is a soul then only restricted to humans? Or do other living things also have one? If all living things have one, then do souls all come from the same place, and go to the same place after leaving the earthly shell?

Since these (and other) questions are pretty much unanswered, at this time...I tend to not believe in the soul.

good questions WS, but more important...

"Can music save your mortal soul?"

bye bye

WS - The spirit chooses the body, therefore by cloning, no we are not stealing a spirit from God, it is just a spirit that chooses to go into a cloned body. There is a common misconception relating soul to spirit so it is hard for me to talk about this. A soul is energy. Have you ever heard of 'soul loss'? This happens when a tramatic event occurs in the past and part of our soul/energy stays behind stuck in that event and time. We loose part of our soul, but our spirit never is damaged. Our spirit is what connects us to God.

To read more on the differences of spirit and soul, go here ---> link


-Quotes-

Interesting...but then, I don't really believe in the 'soul'...just the spirit.

Spirit, soul, essence, inner light, etc..
No matter what you choose to call it, isn't it all differnet words for one in the same depending on what creed you follow? And it always being divided. One attached to good and the other what is of not good. Always at odds in which path to follow. Or is this the conscience and where it guide us determines the soul?????

jade: It seems to me that we (our souls/spirits/energy) are attached to both what we call "good and evil", and perhaps "good and evil" are more like colors we wear for a while as we journey, rather than the path on which we travel.

I won't even go into whether or not "good and evil" are subjective......

another reason why christians dont like cloning is because they say that clones are soul less beings....and as for reason I dont believe in the sould because clones are alive....if soul was the only energy matter for living things...catholics dont believe animals and other things have souls besaid humans....to me it seems everthing has energy inside of us but not spirits/souls...it seems like if the spirits/soul was true then God is judging our soul and punishing it, when it was our bodies doing....people say when we die our mind dies, but soul lives on...ok so that means the body is dead and brainless soul is judged?....hmm...

I think the soul is the essence of who we are. A separate entity from our body and at the same time requiring a body, be it physical or spiritual. All beings have a soul. The soul is mortal ( subject to death ) just as the physical body. I believe the spiritual body is also subject to death, but death is not a requirement.

A souls is just a living, breathing being and that is all. It does not go anywhere after we die and it too can die. It does not exist outside of a living breathing body for that is what it is, so how can it exist outsided of itself? ...it is just the living us. But you can over-complicate the matter if you want with all your cosmic dreams and whims...


...xpi...

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-03-2003).]

what about ghosts xpirex? there are too many well documented cases that cannot be explained other than that there "IS" a spirit realm. in my opinion one would be a fool to dismiss this,and furthermore, if you so choose to label such cases as demons or such, it only furthers the idea of spirit beings. then again, maybe it could be dismissed as halucination (mass halucination if necessary ) ,and maybe we are all just dreaming that we exist at all. and even if we are dreaming, where are the dreamers? in the asylum?

hahahahahahahahhahahhhakjhgf;isajtothebasementwithmeforshocktreatment@!@!2

Oh I most certainly do believe in and have numerouse experiences with what would be termed as 'spirits', but that is a whole other ball game. I was refering to only the human soul. So called ghosts or spirits are something entirely different from our human soul.


...xpi...

"nuff said"

In your opinion...

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Well some of us are more sure of things than others... And no, not in my opinion.. that paricular concept of the souls comes from the bible...

(and what cookie store do your ideas come from?)


...xpi...

"nuff said"

Mine come from experience, and from my people. My experiences have shown me, that my people have a lot of truth in their beliefs. Other proof comes from Science...we know that all things consist of energy...thus, my spirit explaination. However, Science has never found any evidence that we possess a soul, along the lines of what is in the Bible. None. Zip. Nada. Zero. The search goes on...

Until I see proof of this 'soul', I will continue to believe that it just doesn't exist.

Nods to WS

Right. My belief isn't necessarily drawn from my people (although I have some native blood myself) but the native american way of looking at things is very easy to understand, believe, and SEE in life that exists all around us. My belief is tempered through what I have experienced and what I know to be true. My experiences with my spirit and vision quests to find myself are for too extensive to post here... Years in the making and lifetimes in the telling.

It is your OPINION that a soul is the be all end all of existence as it is your OPINION that the bible is true. No one knows for sure so I side with my personal experiences, especially seeing as they are supported by science.

[EDIT]How do we always end up here?[/EDIT]
GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-05-2003).]

Actually Xpirex this

quote:

---

Well some of us are more sure of things than others

---

alone is pretty lame...and then making a rather obscure reference to the Bible, to 'support' it...even worse. Come down from your condescending high-horse, and join us in a conversation...instead of heaping scorn and disproval on others, join in, and participate.

In fact, lately, in a number of threads, you have been mainly abusive, and not very forthcoming in the area of logical thought and support for your 'arguments'. I think Mobrul put it very well...and it even seems that the post brought a pause for thought in you.

Though I can understand a bit of your fustration, and disappointment in the American system...blatently branding it in a negative way, without soundly backing up your feelings, is hardly a constructive effort. In end effect, you are just 'dumping'. Which, in turn, brings negative replies to your posts. This is hardly what I would call 'bridge building'...and in fact, it 'paints' you in the same light, that you bring on the subject.

And then you 'jump' on GD, for expressing his opinion, and offer nothing better, in defense of your 'argument'...

*shakes head*

What exactly do you hope to accomplish, with such posts?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-06-2003).]

I guess, for me, it is just something I have thought for a while...The spirit is the container, the soul is the energy. It seems this is not a very popular belief. I look at the soul completly different from you guys.

Webshaman, I'm not really clear on what you percieve the soul to be.
I know you don't believe in it, but what exactly is it that you don't believe in?
I think the difference between us is that you relate the attributes I call as soul, the energy, to the spirit and sort of group the two together, but I'm not sure.


Quotes

For myself, GN, your belief raises a question... What then is the body?

If the spirit is the container why do we have a physical form? Another container wouldn't be necessary.

It hardly seems fair to ask WS or myself or anyone else that doesn't believe in a soul to explain what a soul is when you, who DO believe in a soul, cannot.

It basically comes down to this for me... I don't see a need to seperate my spirit self from my physical self. It is that interaction that makes us alive. A 'soul' is an extra agent that causes problems with how my energy interacts with other energies that are around me. A 'soul' is rather equivelant to religion. It muddies the waters and blinds our vision... our vision of ourselves and our vision of others.


[EDIT] I had another thought on this... In your belief then, Gibert, do clones then have spirits but no souls? And if that is the case... Does that not then prove that souls are not necessary?

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-06-2003).]

It's just always seemed very arrogant of religions that say only Man has a 'soul' (whatever that is). Of course, if it had been decided differently, it would have made for some uncomfortable conversations. I mean, didn't Jesus say something along the lines of, "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me"? And if animals had souls, wouldn't that make them 'brethren' in some sense? Best to simply declare animals to be soulless and get on with auditing the flock...

Wangenstein: I have to say that if there are no dogs around to scratch behind the ears and roughhouse with, it can't be heaven....

This brings me back to my definition of a soul, and who has one.

Amen to that, norm. If any such afterlife exists, there's a sweet Great Dane I hope to see again. Of course, over time, I've also learned that even a cat can be A Very Good Thing.

quote:

---

I mean, didn't Jesus say something along the lines of, "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me"? And if animals had souls, wouldn't that make them 'brethren' in some sense?

---

Well you know what some people do with their dogs, er gods, er dogs... er ... I mean....

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

GD - I can explain what the soul is, but to me the soul is different that what most people think. To me a soul is energy. The spirit is like us, on a higher plane, and the soul is the energy of that spirit.

I was asking Webshaman what he doesn't believe exists, because he obviously looks at the soul differently than I do, and I was trying to clairify what exactly it is he does not believe in, that is all...

Anyway, I have to go right now..will get back to this later.

GD - We have a physical body because we are humans. We need another container because we are bored, I guess. In reality, I don't really know. I just look at it like this, which may not answer your questions.

We are human beings, this is us..here we are. There are different kinds of humans. There are humans who are new spirits, that are here for the first time, perhaps trying to advance and make stronger their soul/energy to advance and become more perfect like older spirits. I think that spirits are born, yes. This would make up for the fact that long ago there were only like 5 million people, and now there are 6 billion, so all the new people need more spirits, so the spirits are born into new bodies. These are the people who don't seem to really know what is going on, their soul is not very strong, they are very susceptible to certain ideas. Then there are those that are old spirits that choose to inhibit bodies to help teach these new spirits and to help them advance along the path to purity, or something. These pure spirits have a very powerful soul/energy.

As far as cloning, it all depends on which spirit decides to live in the cloned body. I would say that more than likely a very advanced spirit would choose to live in a cloned body, since it would be pretty cool, so therefore the soul would be very strong. But perhaps spirits would not like to live in a cloned body, so a new/young spirit would have to go into the cloned body, so therefore the clone would have a weak, but not no, soul.

So, ah yea...since you probably all feel rather stupider after reading this, I will just leave it at that with the realization that I have not the capacity to explain something that I myself am only trying to figure out.

{edit - and speaking of dogs in heaven, a good movie is The Three Lives of Thomasina}


Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-07-2003).]

Ok, Webster defines Soul like this :

Main Entry: 1soul
Pronunciation: 'sOl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soule, from Old English sAwol; akin to Old High German sEula soul
Date: before 12th century
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe b capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
3 : a person's total self
4 a : an active or essential part b : a moving spirit : LEADER
5 a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment c : spiritual or moral force :

For me, this is more or less the definition of Spirit...with the exception that I define everything as having it. One will notice, that under the definition of Soul, that only humans are considered to possess one. Here, I strongly disagree. Thus, I do not believe in the Soul. I would personally use this part of the definition of Soul - : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe, with the added part and all things, for the definition of Spirit, for me...

Definition of Spirit :

Main Entry: 1spir·it
Pronunciation: 'spir-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French or Latin; Old French, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date: 13th century
1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3 : temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
4 : the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a : the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness> b : an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : MOOD
6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back -- J. A. Froude> b : the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
7 : a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8 : a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9 : a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

This part I kinda agree with - 1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms, except that I would apply it to everything...and substitue energy for animating or vital principle held to give life...things.

I hope that helps clear up why I don't believe in the Soul. I personally don't view humans any differently than other living organisms...we just happen to have evolved intelligence...the first contact with other intelligence species, I think, will require a re-writing of the definition of Soul, anyway...but not Spirit.

And one must remember, that throughout history, the definition of Soul has been re-written many times...especially on who has one - for a long time, most aboriginal peoples were not considered to have Souls...thus, it was ok to kill them (i.e. it was not murder, or a 'moral' problem).

One thing I don't really understand about the Christian religion, why is it called the Holy Spirit? And not the Holy Soul? Does that mean that God doesn't possess a Soul? What about Angels? Do they possess Souls? What exactly, is the purpose of a Soul, anyway? And why, since the existence of the Soul is believed by the Christian Church now for who knows how long, hasn't any evidence been found of its existance?

Ok, I see now Webshaman...thanks for clearing that up. I guess the more I think about it, I don't really know what to make of it. Technically, I don't really believe in a soul either, at least according to that definition. I definately think that all things, trees and what-not, even rocks actually, can have some sort of power, or soul, or ahh...spirit, whichever you like to call it.

WS-and others - Do you think spirits can advance? Like you know the Great Spirit, and then perhaps you know how people claim to have spiritual helpers who are very achieved and great spirits? Do you think our choices on this planet affect the power and/or importance of our soul?


Quotes

Of course spirits can advance. My spirit is a level 18 Elven Ranger.

Did I just say that out loud?

LOL, Suho. You player you... thinking in terms of levels... Gotta be a DM and think in terms of worlds and crystal spheres. Then you can talk to me about advancement.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Ouch, Suho. Now, that's geeky!

50 whacks with a vorpal wet noodle +5, +6 vs. Suho!

Web,

In Christianity the Holy Spirit (God) is the 3rd person of the trinity. This entity being totally perfected is why it is called holy. I would say we are an extension of this Holy Spirit by grace which we are freely given. But ours is received in an infancy and strives to mature to a perfected state. A greatness. But not attaining the same greatness of the God Almighty. Just to partake of it like sharing. I would not call our own souls/spirits holy. If we did, we would be without sin. I would tend to think the Angels do have souls, since their battle of the wills is passed and they overcame evil in the Great Battle of the heavens.

I think we draw our loves from the soul. Not the heart. I hear the phrases "I love you with my whole heart and soul". We connect with the heart being its the organ that sustains our phyical life force, but emotionally its the soul or spirit or whatever you call it that generates the emotional feelings. Right? Or is it the mind for some?

I don't think anyone can prove there is a soul or spirit of a person.

Hmmm...

Well, some evidence has been gathered, about energy fields of matter...and all matter contains energy. I believe that some of this energy is indeed the spirit.

The concept of the Soul is normally in reference to the Christian religion, I believe...or at least 'accepted'. But of this Soul, we have no evidence, whatsoever.

Yes opinion, opinion... thats why you are so lost. You have no real belief in anything. Your truth changes like the tides and the weather.

Yes I confessI have been bitching and moaning... (but don't people do that in asylums?)I have my reasons. If there's one thing I am going to do.. it's to learn something from you all. Forebearance required


...xpi...

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-07-2003).]

Xpirex:

I like having Opinions (I've got a lot of them), and I like having the ability and the intelligence to be able to change them.

Lacking that ability is called 'Belief Perseverance Syndrome' by psychologists, and is generally not looked at as a good thing. But, to each his own....

I hardly feel that I'm lost... Nor do I believe in nothing. I have a great many beliefs and a great sense of who I am, what I am, where I am headed and what awaits me on the other side. I am grounded, unafraid, and sensible. I draw my conclusions from experience and science. Things that I trust to be irrefutable. When I no longer trust myself... then I might be in trouble.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

One of the most interesting fictional descriptions of a soul that I ever read was in Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series. (Some interesting allusions to Dante's Divine comedy contained within) For those who haven't read it... It was basically a nebulous thing that rested somewhere in your chest. (It was slightly out of alignment with the rest of the world, that's why your friendly neighborhood heart surgeon couldn't see it) At birth, the soul was grey, neutral. As the person grew, he would keep a record of sin and virtue on his soul. At death, if he was more virtuous than sinful, the soul would become lighter and rise unassisted into Heaven and settle into the appropriate level. The opposite was also true... in the other direction of course. Now for those in 'balance', Death came along to help the soul to its destination. (It involved a weighing process, and often Purgatory)

Now this really has nothing to do with my belief in souls themselves. I just thought I'd share an interesting idea concerning the subject...

As for my own belief I'm more of a spirit person at heart, in terms of strict definitions. This is because I feel there is something transient that we carry around in these bodies of ours. But I don't believe humans to be the sole (no pun intended) possessors of this aspect. Sometimes these spirits take residence in mortal vessels. Others they may choose a profound outcropping of granite for a while. The spirit is a different level of awareness, an energy, that is not bound by mortal bodies or eroding rockfaces. It is something that gains experience in so many ways, that our current state of intelligence can only barely begin to scratch the surface of. Organized religion tries very hard to explain what it cannot understand, and in some cases does a nice job of packaging up an explanation and selling it well to the masses. It's much easier to buy a cake than make one, after all. It is only through living and learning can we begin to know what spirit is.

(disclaimer for future posts! Don't take me to task if I use soul & spirit interchangeably... I really kinda see the whole deal as nit-picky semantics )

*sigh*

quote:

---

Yes opinion, opinion... thats why you are so lost. You have no real belief in anything. Your truth changes like the tides and the weather

---

There is one Truth, and many 'truths'...yes, I do believe in something...and the Truth does not change...just 'truths'...which are just smaller glimpses of the Truth.

As for opinions...well, they are like grains of sand on the beach...but they do serve a rather nice purpose...otherwise, we wouldn't have anything to discuss...

And I am not lost...far from it. I feel very secure, in my skin.

Xpirex - What you believe is only an opinion also. Just because the "bible says it so" Does not mean it is a fact. Just because you have been taught that it is a fact does not make it a fact. That is the problem with a lot of christians. They think they are the only ones who have the truth, when in reality the truth can be found in everything.


.quotes.

M D

I tend to agree with your post. Its enlighening too.
I agree that we cannot put limits on the spirit.

GN

I think the general concept of what Christians believe is that "everything" is truth too because what is created tangible and untangible comes from a source which is the creator or the supreme higher being. So we agree on that too.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

WebShaman:

Once in a while I run across a phrase that is so profound, that seems to fit so well....

Your statement on Truth is one of those.

To read it, to ponder it, seems to guide me back to the Satori I wrote of earlier. Those are powerful and effective words you chose to share.

I must say that Web saying that really caught me off-guard. I am quite pleased with it and it is something on which we can agree wholeheartedly. Believing in an ultimate Truth is not as common as you might think.

. . : slicePuzzle

norm, when you say "capacity to love", what do you mean by love? What kind of love? I know that will be very difficult to nail down but it really is central to your definition of soul. The Greeks had umpteen different words for love and we have one. Are you talking erotic, brotherly, perfect, etc. ... love?

I have struggled with this question the last several years and I have some ideas about it but I still have some problems with the way I see it. I'm trying to map them out so I can get them into a post here soon.

quote:

---

Jade - I think the general concept of what Christians believe is that "everything" is truth too because what is created tangible and untangible comes from a source which is the creator or the supreme higher being. So we agree on that too.

---

Maybe some Christians think like this, but I would say that most do not. If this were true than my saying that I know I am going to heaven would be percieved as a truth by 'most' Christians, but instead, most Christians would say this in not a truth because I am not a christian. Right?


.quotes.

GN

No. That is not true. I know my faith teaches all mankind has an invitation to salvation. If a deaf, dumb and blind person didn't know God, is he going to be dammed ? No. Through ignorance or confusion should a soul be dammed? My faith says no. Christiantiy has many flavors, some teach errors, some not. If they lead a soul to the right direction meaning to really love its neighbor how could it go wrong. This pertains to all faithful jew, protestant, muslim, buddist souls and more. But we cannot presume God will forgive a soul B-4 it does a bad deed. As Christians we call this the "Sin of Presumption." Meaning we are taking Gods mercy for granted, that knowing God will forgive our soul anyway. And also too when we say "I know I am going to heaven." An earthly soul really never knows where its going in the afterlife. I think we can agree on that.


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

So everyone but Christians are either deaf, dumb, blind, ignorant, or confused?

and yes we can agree that no one knows what is going to happen when we die. I was just using that as an example. But I do think that we have more control over it that most Christians tend to think. I think it is us as individuals who decide what will happen in the afterlife. It's is sort of like a person practing a sport. They aspire to be as good as possible. It's sort of like this in the after-life also, perhaps. When we die, if we feel we have done everything we needed, and have achieved the most enlightened state possible, then we will no longer have to return to a human body again, but if we did not achieve what we set out to achieve, we will be put back into the same circumstance so we can learn the lessons we were sent here to learn.

I didn't mean deaf, dumb and blind meaning non-christians. I mean the feeble minded who don't look for God or don't know how to look. What about the insane and retarted too.

I agree with you on most of what you posted though, but the soul coming back part, I really don't know about what. Has a soul gone there, done that and came back to tell we have more than one life?

Sorry. Doubled post

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

I know you didn't mean that, that's why I put the little

Anyway, about the soul thing, sure. If we mess up real bad, I don't think we go to hell. I just think we come back to earth and do everything over again, until we stop making the same mistakes.

Willing to sell my soul to the highest bidder.

I accept that some so called Christians have been and continue to fall into the group of dumb and dangerous, but putting that aside, granted that elements of truth are to be found everywhere.. does anyone believe that there is a 'whole truth?' ...that instead of the rare elements that usually come mixed and interspersed with bucket loads of falsness, is the somewhere where one can find the WHOLE TRUTH in it's complete and unadulterated form?

...in your opinions?...


...xpi...

"nuff said"

Bugimus:

In answer to your question, what I meant by love is the putting aside of holding ones self separate from another individual, so that their joy becomes your joy, their pain becomes yours too....it involves a sharing, a connection, a melding of emotional dependence. I believe that these are present in all of the forms of love that have ever been named.

this thread was begging me for a poem:

strip away the trivial things i do and say
strip away the masks i wear from day to day
look into the heart of who i am
not what you perceive me to be
or what i wish you to think
and there you will find my soul
the real me
not my spirit, because my spirit soars beyond all this
not my mere physical being either, because it will fade
just as memories
but, i will always be
only me

Xpirex - This may sound like a simple answer to a very complex question, but I would say the ultimate truth can be found sitting out in nature, just looking at a tree or a mountain, or looking down from a mountain, and clearing your mind of all thoughts, which eventually, for me at least, leads to the understanding that we are all connected and everything is inner-twined.

{edit - and outcydr that's pretty cool...}

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-09-2003).]

soul is the spirit hidden in your deep body. They say that you cannot live without it.

Yannah:

I agree with them.... it would be much to painful to live without a soul.

Xpirex, that was a good question...a very good one, in fact. Nice post, GN...though it rings true, I don't think that is the whole of the 'ultimate' Truth...rather a small glimpse of it...

I'm still not sure, if we are able to comprehend the 'ultimate' Truth, in this present shell...I know that I haven't accomplished it. It doesn't prevent me from trying, though...

Can you see an object, all of it, at once (all of its information)? Then expand that to include everything...it seems that in our present shell, we are limited by our senses...

Gilbert I understand and completely agree with what you said there, it's a beautiful thing. I have spent many days and nights (sometimes up to 30 days alone) in deep dark forests in the exquisite stillnes and I have come to know some truths regarding nature, the generosity and wisdom of the creator, myself and my spirit. But the forest does not tell me about you.. or her, or politics or what the true agenda of our governments are, or armagedon.. or the future, or or answers to all the things that get discussed in here. I know in our limited capacity it's not possible to know all truth, but most things do have a yes or no answer and it would be so useful to have access to that source of true knowledge. I might not be able to change the world but It would sure help me to get myself aligned correctly.

SOUL: The original language terms (Hebrew: nephesh, Greek: pyskhe) are used in the scriptures show "soul" to be a person, an animal or the life that te person or animal enjoys. The connotations the the English soul commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek writers. This fact has steadily gained wider aknowledgment. Back in 1897 the Journal of biblical Literature (Vol XVI, page 30), Professor C.A. Briggs as a result of detailed analysis of the use of Nephesh in Hebrew observed "Soul in English at the present time usually conveys a very different meaning from Nephesh in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret."
More recently, when the Jewish Publication Society of America issued a new translation of the Torah, or first five books of the Bible, the editor-in-chief, H.M Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College stated the the word soul had been virtually eliminated from this translation because "the Hebrew word in question here is 'Nefesh', he added: Other translators have interpreted it to mean 'soul', which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. Nefesh (or soul) is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being. Man does not have a soul He IS a soul' The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meaning attached to the English word 'soul' stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Greek Christian Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religeous thought. Greek philosopher Plato for example quotes Socrates saying: "The soul... if it departs goes away into that which is like itself, nto the invisible, devine, immortal, and wise and when it arrives there is happy, freed from error and folly and fear.. and all the other human ills, and... lives in truth wilt all after time with the gods" --Phaedo. 80, D,E, 81, A.

In direct contrast with the Greek taeching of the psykhe (soul) as being immaterial, intangable, invisible and immortal the scriptures show that both psykhe' and ne'phesh as used with refernce to earthly creatures refer to that which is material, tangible, earthly and mortal.

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-28-2003).]