Topic awaiting preservation: what is a Soul? (Page 1 of 2)

What is a soul, and what can have a soul?

here is my idea: A soul is the part of us that is the capacity to love. Therefore, anything that can love has a soul.


Now it's your turn.....

I personally don't believe in the soul...I believe in spirits. I believe that everthing has a spirit, and that we are interconnected through the spirit with everything else...

On a level of energy. I believe that Mankind once was aware of this, but has slowly lost the knowledge of this.

Spirit.... Soul... Soul... Spirit... Ok, Spirit works for me too.

I also believe in the connectedness of all, in a great oneness of energy. I choose to see it as Love & Beauty, all though I realize that it is everything else too. Sometimes I have the pleasure and joy of feeling the oneness; of touching it and being touched. And far too often this eludes me....

If Mankind has lost this awareness, what have we gained? What have we chosen to take it's place?

Satori.... the Zen concept of oneness. I just remembered the word.

I have felt it in the flowing movements and power of my favorite physical pursuits, I have found it (if only for a moment)in the beauty of Logic, and I have been engulfed by it in the passion of lovemaking.......

it is late and I have begun to ramble, please forgive me.

No need to apologize...I think that is exactly that, which is meant...that 'feeling of oneness'...yes. Of being interconnected...a part of the whole. Not above it, but part of it...I think this is what is lacking, in modern society...our 'denial' of our Nature...

I think master Suho has a Soul in his address...

Why yes, yes I do...
<==

I don't think that mankind has gained anything is our seperation from the rest of the... 'All' Nor have we really lost anything but understanding. I also don't know that I equate spirit with soul. Trees, rocks, and water have spirits... Love being the epitome of soul... I don't know that they qualify, by your definition anyway.

If you want my take on it... A soul is what the church says you have to lose so that they can blackmail you into being a good person. They make you believe it is the essence of who you are and nothing else matters but the state of your soul. It's bouyancy as it were. I think it's a control point enforced with guilt and ignominy. I find the soul used to seperate people from each other rather than showing us how we're all the same. How we're interconnected. This basically establishes the differences between my beliefs and those of the church and also establishes my viewpoint on the differences between souls and spirits... But that's just me. understanding your spiritual standing in the grand scheme of life will help you be a good person because everything affects you as you affect everything else.
GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 04-29-2003).]

To me a soul is our energy, which can be used how we like and can be lost or stolen.

A spirit is our eternal being that contians our soul/energy.

Very well put, GD...though I don't particularly believe in the 'soul'...

Just because everything has a spirit, doesn't make everything the same...obviously...it just interconnects us.

As for love, it's just an emotion, like any other...sometimes strong, sometimes weak.

What about the saying,

"the eyes are the windows to the soul"
Can a person look deep into ones eyes and
connect with the spirit of the soul? Soulmates?


What about when we say,
"that music really hits deep into my soul"

"Or the love I have for this person
really penetrates deep into my soul."

Are these just figures of speech?

Thanx, WS. I don't believe in 'souls' either... I was just using norm's explaination since it was at hand.

jade - Hmmm.... terminology aside, I think those are just expressions of how we feel connected to different things in our lives. I know that I am connected to my fiancee, Moon Dancer, in a way that I can't explain beyond something similar to the 'soulmate' statement. Hmmm... In the web of life there are certain threads that cross... a nexus if you will... and at those junctures things just seem to fit. Be it a the rhythm of a piece of music or the company of a certain person... things just fit better the nearer to these nexus you get. I think that's where a lot of the 'It was meant to happen' mentality comes from. Something that, whether for 'good' or 'bad' just fits into the web of life. Partly why 'good' and 'bad' don't exist for me, things fit or they don't. So yeah, they're just phrases to express what we can't explain when something touches our spirit, interacts with our being on a level beyond words.

[EDIT] BTW the plural form of Nexus is nexus or nexuses... that one boggled me for a while.
GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 04-29-2003).]

Jade,

quote:

---

"the eyes are the windows to the soul"
Can a person look deep into ones eyes and
connect with the spirit of the soul? Soulmates?


What about when we say,
"that music really hits deep into my soul"

"Or the love I have for this person
really penetrates deep into my soul."

Are these just figures of speech?

---

No, not just figures of speech, but descriptions of feelings. Can you show me this 'soul'? Where is it in a person? And at what time does a human being then have a soul? At conception? Two weeks later? Two months? What about a cloned human...does it have a soul? If so, does that mean, through cloning, Mankind can 'steal' souls from god? How many souls are there? Is there a 'fixed' amount, or is the supply endless? And where are they before they 'attach' themselves to a body? At what time do they leave the earthly shell? Is a soul then only restricted to humans? Or do other living things also have one? If all living things have one, then do souls all come from the same place, and go to the same place after leaving the earthly shell?

Since these (and other) questions are pretty much unanswered, at this time...I tend to not believe in the soul.

good questions WS, but more important...

"Can music save your mortal soul?"

bye bye

WS - The spirit chooses the body, therefore by cloning, no we are not stealing a spirit from God, it is just a spirit that chooses to go into a cloned body. There is a common misconception relating soul to spirit so it is hard for me to talk about this. A soul is energy. Have you ever heard of 'soul loss'? This happens when a tramatic event occurs in the past and part of our soul/energy stays behind stuck in that event and time. We loose part of our soul, but our spirit never is damaged. Our spirit is what connects us to God.

To read more on the differences of spirit and soul, go here ---> link


-Quotes-

Interesting...but then, I don't really believe in the 'soul'...just the spirit.

Spirit, soul, essence, inner light, etc..
No matter what you choose to call it, isn't it all differnet words for one in the same depending on what creed you follow? And it always being divided. One attached to good and the other what is of not good. Always at odds in which path to follow. Or is this the conscience and where it guide us determines the soul?????

jade: It seems to me that we (our souls/spirits/energy) are attached to both what we call "good and evil", and perhaps "good and evil" are more like colors we wear for a while as we journey, rather than the path on which we travel.

I won't even go into whether or not "good and evil" are subjective......

another reason why christians dont like cloning is because they say that clones are soul less beings....and as for reason I dont believe in the sould because clones are alive....if soul was the only energy matter for living things...catholics dont believe animals and other things have souls besaid humans....to me it seems everthing has energy inside of us but not spirits/souls...it seems like if the spirits/soul was true then God is judging our soul and punishing it, when it was our bodies doing....people say when we die our mind dies, but soul lives on...ok so that means the body is dead and brainless soul is judged?....hmm...

I think the soul is the essence of who we are. A separate entity from our body and at the same time requiring a body, be it physical or spiritual. All beings have a soul. The soul is mortal ( subject to death ) just as the physical body. I believe the spiritual body is also subject to death, but death is not a requirement.

A souls is just a living, breathing being and that is all. It does not go anywhere after we die and it too can die. It does not exist outside of a living breathing body for that is what it is, so how can it exist outsided of itself? ...it is just the living us. But you can over-complicate the matter if you want with all your cosmic dreams and whims...


...xpi...

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-03-2003).]

what about ghosts xpirex? there are too many well documented cases that cannot be explained other than that there "IS" a spirit realm. in my opinion one would be a fool to dismiss this,and furthermore, if you so choose to label such cases as demons or such, it only furthers the idea of spirit beings. then again, maybe it could be dismissed as halucination (mass halucination if necessary ) ,and maybe we are all just dreaming that we exist at all. and even if we are dreaming, where are the dreamers? in the asylum?

hahahahahahahahhahahhhakjhgf;isajtothebasementwithmeforshocktreatment@!@!2

Oh I most certainly do believe in and have numerouse experiences with what would be termed as 'spirits', but that is a whole other ball game. I was refering to only the human soul. So called ghosts or spirits are something entirely different from our human soul.


...xpi...

"nuff said"

In your opinion...

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Well some of us are more sure of things than others... And no, not in my opinion.. that paricular concept of the souls comes from the bible...

(and what cookie store do your ideas come from?)


...xpi...

"nuff said"

Mine come from experience, and from my people. My experiences have shown me, that my people have a lot of truth in their beliefs. Other proof comes from Science...we know that all things consist of energy...thus, my spirit explaination. However, Science has never found any evidence that we possess a soul, along the lines of what is in the Bible. None. Zip. Nada. Zero. The search goes on...

Until I see proof of this 'soul', I will continue to believe that it just doesn't exist.

Nods to WS

Right. My belief isn't necessarily drawn from my people (although I have some native blood myself) but the native american way of looking at things is very easy to understand, believe, and SEE in life that exists all around us. My belief is tempered through what I have experienced and what I know to be true. My experiences with my spirit and vision quests to find myself are for too extensive to post here... Years in the making and lifetimes in the telling.

It is your OPINION that a soul is the be all end all of existence as it is your OPINION that the bible is true. No one knows for sure so I side with my personal experiences, especially seeing as they are supported by science.

[EDIT]How do we always end up here?[/EDIT]
GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-05-2003).]

Actually Xpirex this

quote:

---

Well some of us are more sure of things than others

---

alone is pretty lame...and then making a rather obscure reference to the Bible, to 'support' it...even worse. Come down from your condescending high-horse, and join us in a conversation...instead of heaping scorn and disproval on others, join in, and participate.

In fact, lately, in a number of threads, you have been mainly abusive, and not very forthcoming in the area of logical thought and support for your 'arguments'. I think Mobrul put it very well...and it even seems that the post brought a pause for thought in you.

Though I can understand a bit of your fustration, and disappointment in the American system...blatently branding it in a negative way, without soundly backing up your feelings, is hardly a constructive effort. In end effect, you are just 'dumping'. Which, in turn, brings negative replies to your posts. This is hardly what I would call 'bridge building'...and in fact, it 'paints' you in the same light, that you bring on the subject.

And then you 'jump' on GD, for expressing his opinion, and offer nothing better, in defense of your 'argument'...

*shakes head*

What exactly do you hope to accomplish, with such posts?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-06-2003).]

I guess, for me, it is just something I have thought for a while...The spirit is the container, the soul is the energy. It seems this is not a very popular belief. I look at the soul completly different from you guys.

Webshaman, I'm not really clear on what you percieve the soul to be.
I know you don't believe in it, but what exactly is it that you don't believe in?
I think the difference between us is that you relate the attributes I call as soul, the energy, to the spirit and sort of group the two together, but I'm not sure.


Quotes

For myself, GN, your belief raises a question... What then is the body?

If the spirit is the container why do we have a physical form? Another container wouldn't be necessary.

It hardly seems fair to ask WS or myself or anyone else that doesn't believe in a soul to explain what a soul is when you, who DO believe in a soul, cannot.

It basically comes down to this for me... I don't see a need to seperate my spirit self from my physical self. It is that interaction that makes us alive. A 'soul' is an extra agent that causes problems with how my energy interacts with other energies that are around me. A 'soul' is rather equivelant to religion. It muddies the waters and blinds our vision... our vision of ourselves and our vision of others.


[EDIT] I had another thought on this... In your belief then, Gibert, do clones then have spirits but no souls? And if that is the case... Does that not then prove that souls are not necessary?

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-06-2003).]

It's just always seemed very arrogant of religions that say only Man has a 'soul' (whatever that is). Of course, if it had been decided differently, it would have made for some uncomfortable conversations. I mean, didn't Jesus say something along the lines of, "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me"? And if animals had souls, wouldn't that make them 'brethren' in some sense? Best to simply declare animals to be soulless and get on with auditing the flock...

Wangenstein: I have to say that if there are no dogs around to scratch behind the ears and roughhouse with, it can't be heaven....

This brings me back to my definition of a soul, and who has one.

Amen to that, norm. If any such afterlife exists, there's a sweet Great Dane I hope to see again. Of course, over time, I've also learned that even a cat can be A Very Good Thing.

quote:

---

I mean, didn't Jesus say something along the lines of, "whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me"? And if animals had souls, wouldn't that make them 'brethren' in some sense?

---

Well you know what some people do with their dogs, er gods, er dogs... er ... I mean....

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

GD - I can explain what the soul is, but to me the soul is different that what most people think. To me a soul is energy. The spirit is like us, on a higher plane, and the soul is the energy of that spirit.

I was asking Webshaman what he doesn't believe exists, because he obviously looks at the soul differently than I do, and I was trying to clairify what exactly it is he does not believe in, that is all...

Anyway, I have to go right now..will get back to this later.

GD - We have a physical body because we are humans. We need another container because we are bored, I guess. In reality, I don't really know. I just look at it like this, which may not answer your questions.

We are human beings, this is us..here we are. There are different kinds of humans. There are humans who are new spirits, that are here for the first time, perhaps trying to advance and make stronger their soul/energy to advance and become more perfect like older spirits. I think that spirits are born, yes. This would make up for the fact that long ago there were only like 5 million people, and now there are 6 billion, so all the new people need more spirits, so the spirits are born into new bodies. These are the people who don't seem to really know what is going on, their soul is not very strong, they are very susceptible to certain ideas. Then there are those that are old spirits that choose to inhibit bodies to help teach these new spirits and to help them advance along the path to purity, or something. These pure spirits have a very powerful soul/energy.

As far as cloning, it all depends on which spirit decides to live in the cloned body. I would say that more than likely a very advanced spirit would choose to live in a cloned body, since it would be pretty cool, so therefore the soul would be very strong. But perhaps spirits would not like to live in a cloned body, so a new/young spirit would have to go into the cloned body, so therefore the clone would have a weak, but not no, soul.

So, ah yea...since you probably all feel rather stupider after reading this, I will just leave it at that with the realization that I have not the capacity to explain something that I myself am only trying to figure out.

{edit - and speaking of dogs in heaven, a good movie is The Three Lives of Thomasina}


Quotes

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-07-2003).]

Ok, Webster defines Soul like this :

Main Entry: 1soul
Pronunciation: 'sOl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soule, from Old English sAwol; akin to Old High German sEula soul
Date: before 12th century
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe b capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
3 : a person's total self
4 a : an active or essential part b : a moving spirit : LEADER
5 a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment c : spiritual or moral force :

For me, this is more or less the definition of Spirit...with the exception that I define everything as having it. One will notice, that under the definition of Soul, that only humans are considered to possess one. Here, I strongly disagree. Thus, I do not believe in the Soul. I would personally use this part of the definition of Soul - : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe, with the added part and all things, for the definition of Spirit, for me...

Definition of Spirit :

Main Entry: 1spir·it
Pronunciation: 'spir-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French or Latin; Old French, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date: 13th century
1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3 : temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
4 : the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a : the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness> b : an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : MOOD
6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back -- J. A. Froude> b : the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
7 : a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8 : a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9 : a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

This part I kinda agree with - 1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms, except that I would apply it to everything...and substitue energy for animating or vital principle held to give life...things.

I hope that helps clear up why I don't believe in the Soul. I personally don't view humans any differently than other living organisms...we just happen to have evolved intelligence...the first contact with other intelligence species, I think, will require a re-writing of the definition of Soul, anyway...but not Spirit.

And one must remember, that throughout history, the definition of Soul has been re-written many times...especially on who has one - for a long time, most aboriginal peoples were not considered to have Souls...thus, it was ok to kill them (i.e. it was not murder, or a 'moral' problem).

One thing I don't really understand about the Christian religion, why is it called the Holy Spirit? And not the Holy Soul? Does that mean that God doesn't possess a Soul? What about Angels? Do they possess Souls? What exactly, is the purpose of a Soul, anyway? And why, since the existence of the Soul is believed by the Christian Church now for who knows how long, hasn't any evidence been found of its existance?

Ok, I see now Webshaman...thanks for clearing that up. I guess the more I think about it, I don't really know what to make of it. Technically, I don't really believe in a soul either, at least according to that definition. I definately think that all things, trees and what-not, even rocks actually, can have some sort of power, or soul, or ahh...spirit, whichever you like to call it.

WS-and others - Do you think spirits can advance? Like you know the Great Spirit, and then perhaps you know how people claim to have spiritual helpers who are very achieved and great spirits? Do you think our choices on this planet affect the power and/or importance of our soul?


Quotes

Of course spirits can advance. My spirit is a level 18 Elven Ranger.

Did I just say that out loud?

LOL, Suho. You player you... thinking in terms of levels... Gotta be a DM and think in terms of worlds and crystal spheres. Then you can talk to me about advancement.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown