Topic awaiting preservation: what is a Soul? (Page 2 of 2)

Ouch, Suho. Now, that's geeky!

50 whacks with a vorpal wet noodle +5, +6 vs. Suho!

Web,

In Christianity the Holy Spirit (God) is the 3rd person of the trinity. This entity being totally perfected is why it is called holy. I would say we are an extension of this Holy Spirit by grace which we are freely given. But ours is received in an infancy and strives to mature to a perfected state. A greatness. But not attaining the same greatness of the God Almighty. Just to partake of it like sharing. I would not call our own souls/spirits holy. If we did, we would be without sin. I would tend to think the Angels do have souls, since their battle of the wills is passed and they overcame evil in the Great Battle of the heavens.

I think we draw our loves from the soul. Not the heart. I hear the phrases "I love you with my whole heart and soul". We connect with the heart being its the organ that sustains our phyical life force, but emotionally its the soul or spirit or whatever you call it that generates the emotional feelings. Right? Or is it the mind for some?

I don't think anyone can prove there is a soul or spirit of a person.

Hmmm...

Well, some evidence has been gathered, about energy fields of matter...and all matter contains energy. I believe that some of this energy is indeed the spirit.

The concept of the Soul is normally in reference to the Christian religion, I believe...or at least 'accepted'. But of this Soul, we have no evidence, whatsoever.

Yes opinion, opinion... thats why you are so lost. You have no real belief in anything. Your truth changes like the tides and the weather.

Yes I confessI have been bitching and moaning... (but don't people do that in asylums?)I have my reasons. If there's one thing I am going to do.. it's to learn something from you all. Forebearance required


...xpi...

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-07-2003).]

Xpirex:

I like having Opinions (I've got a lot of them), and I like having the ability and the intelligence to be able to change them.

Lacking that ability is called 'Belief Perseverance Syndrome' by psychologists, and is generally not looked at as a good thing. But, to each his own....

I hardly feel that I'm lost... Nor do I believe in nothing. I have a great many beliefs and a great sense of who I am, what I am, where I am headed and what awaits me on the other side. I am grounded, unafraid, and sensible. I draw my conclusions from experience and science. Things that I trust to be irrefutable. When I no longer trust myself... then I might be in trouble.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

One of the most interesting fictional descriptions of a soul that I ever read was in Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series. (Some interesting allusions to Dante's Divine comedy contained within) For those who haven't read it... It was basically a nebulous thing that rested somewhere in your chest. (It was slightly out of alignment with the rest of the world, that's why your friendly neighborhood heart surgeon couldn't see it) At birth, the soul was grey, neutral. As the person grew, he would keep a record of sin and virtue on his soul. At death, if he was more virtuous than sinful, the soul would become lighter and rise unassisted into Heaven and settle into the appropriate level. The opposite was also true... in the other direction of course. Now for those in 'balance', Death came along to help the soul to its destination. (It involved a weighing process, and often Purgatory)

Now this really has nothing to do with my belief in souls themselves. I just thought I'd share an interesting idea concerning the subject...

As for my own belief I'm more of a spirit person at heart, in terms of strict definitions. This is because I feel there is something transient that we carry around in these bodies of ours. But I don't believe humans to be the sole (no pun intended) possessors of this aspect. Sometimes these spirits take residence in mortal vessels. Others they may choose a profound outcropping of granite for a while. The spirit is a different level of awareness, an energy, that is not bound by mortal bodies or eroding rockfaces. It is something that gains experience in so many ways, that our current state of intelligence can only barely begin to scratch the surface of. Organized religion tries very hard to explain what it cannot understand, and in some cases does a nice job of packaging up an explanation and selling it well to the masses. It's much easier to buy a cake than make one, after all. It is only through living and learning can we begin to know what spirit is.

(disclaimer for future posts! Don't take me to task if I use soul & spirit interchangeably... I really kinda see the whole deal as nit-picky semantics )

*sigh*

quote:

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Yes opinion, opinion... thats why you are so lost. You have no real belief in anything. Your truth changes like the tides and the weather

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There is one Truth, and many 'truths'...yes, I do believe in something...and the Truth does not change...just 'truths'...which are just smaller glimpses of the Truth.

As for opinions...well, they are like grains of sand on the beach...but they do serve a rather nice purpose...otherwise, we wouldn't have anything to discuss...

And I am not lost...far from it. I feel very secure, in my skin.

Xpirex - What you believe is only an opinion also. Just because the "bible says it so" Does not mean it is a fact. Just because you have been taught that it is a fact does not make it a fact. That is the problem with a lot of christians. They think they are the only ones who have the truth, when in reality the truth can be found in everything.


.quotes.

M D

I tend to agree with your post. Its enlighening too.
I agree that we cannot put limits on the spirit.

GN

I think the general concept of what Christians believe is that "everything" is truth too because what is created tangible and untangible comes from a source which is the creator or the supreme higher being. So we agree on that too.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

WebShaman:

Once in a while I run across a phrase that is so profound, that seems to fit so well....

Your statement on Truth is one of those.

To read it, to ponder it, seems to guide me back to the Satori I wrote of earlier. Those are powerful and effective words you chose to share.

I must say that Web saying that really caught me off-guard. I am quite pleased with it and it is something on which we can agree wholeheartedly. Believing in an ultimate Truth is not as common as you might think.

. . : slicePuzzle

norm, when you say "capacity to love", what do you mean by love? What kind of love? I know that will be very difficult to nail down but it really is central to your definition of soul. The Greeks had umpteen different words for love and we have one. Are you talking erotic, brotherly, perfect, etc. ... love?

I have struggled with this question the last several years and I have some ideas about it but I still have some problems with the way I see it. I'm trying to map them out so I can get them into a post here soon.

quote:

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Jade - I think the general concept of what Christians believe is that "everything" is truth too because what is created tangible and untangible comes from a source which is the creator or the supreme higher being. So we agree on that too.

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Maybe some Christians think like this, but I would say that most do not. If this were true than my saying that I know I am going to heaven would be percieved as a truth by 'most' Christians, but instead, most Christians would say this in not a truth because I am not a christian. Right?


.quotes.

GN

No. That is not true. I know my faith teaches all mankind has an invitation to salvation. If a deaf, dumb and blind person didn't know God, is he going to be dammed ? No. Through ignorance or confusion should a soul be dammed? My faith says no. Christiantiy has many flavors, some teach errors, some not. If they lead a soul to the right direction meaning to really love its neighbor how could it go wrong. This pertains to all faithful jew, protestant, muslim, buddist souls and more. But we cannot presume God will forgive a soul B-4 it does a bad deed. As Christians we call this the "Sin of Presumption." Meaning we are taking Gods mercy for granted, that knowing God will forgive our soul anyway. And also too when we say "I know I am going to heaven." An earthly soul really never knows where its going in the afterlife. I think we can agree on that.


[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

So everyone but Christians are either deaf, dumb, blind, ignorant, or confused?

and yes we can agree that no one knows what is going to happen when we die. I was just using that as an example. But I do think that we have more control over it that most Christians tend to think. I think it is us as individuals who decide what will happen in the afterlife. It's is sort of like a person practing a sport. They aspire to be as good as possible. It's sort of like this in the after-life also, perhaps. When we die, if we feel we have done everything we needed, and have achieved the most enlightened state possible, then we will no longer have to return to a human body again, but if we did not achieve what we set out to achieve, we will be put back into the same circumstance so we can learn the lessons we were sent here to learn.

I didn't mean deaf, dumb and blind meaning non-christians. I mean the feeble minded who don't look for God or don't know how to look. What about the insane and retarted too.

I agree with you on most of what you posted though, but the soul coming back part, I really don't know about what. Has a soul gone there, done that and came back to tell we have more than one life?

Sorry. Doubled post

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-08-2003).]

I know you didn't mean that, that's why I put the little

Anyway, about the soul thing, sure. If we mess up real bad, I don't think we go to hell. I just think we come back to earth and do everything over again, until we stop making the same mistakes.

Willing to sell my soul to the highest bidder.

I accept that some so called Christians have been and continue to fall into the group of dumb and dangerous, but putting that aside, granted that elements of truth are to be found everywhere.. does anyone believe that there is a 'whole truth?' ...that instead of the rare elements that usually come mixed and interspersed with bucket loads of falsness, is the somewhere where one can find the WHOLE TRUTH in it's complete and unadulterated form?

...in your opinions?...


...xpi...

"nuff said"

Bugimus:

In answer to your question, what I meant by love is the putting aside of holding ones self separate from another individual, so that their joy becomes your joy, their pain becomes yours too....it involves a sharing, a connection, a melding of emotional dependence. I believe that these are present in all of the forms of love that have ever been named.

this thread was begging me for a poem:

strip away the trivial things i do and say
strip away the masks i wear from day to day
look into the heart of who i am
not what you perceive me to be
or what i wish you to think
and there you will find my soul
the real me
not my spirit, because my spirit soars beyond all this
not my mere physical being either, because it will fade
just as memories
but, i will always be
only me

Xpirex - This may sound like a simple answer to a very complex question, but I would say the ultimate truth can be found sitting out in nature, just looking at a tree or a mountain, or looking down from a mountain, and clearing your mind of all thoughts, which eventually, for me at least, leads to the understanding that we are all connected and everything is inner-twined.

{edit - and outcydr that's pretty cool...}

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-09-2003).]

soul is the spirit hidden in your deep body. They say that you cannot live without it.

Yannah:

I agree with them.... it would be much to painful to live without a soul.

Xpirex, that was a good question...a very good one, in fact. Nice post, GN...though it rings true, I don't think that is the whole of the 'ultimate' Truth...rather a small glimpse of it...

I'm still not sure, if we are able to comprehend the 'ultimate' Truth, in this present shell...I know that I haven't accomplished it. It doesn't prevent me from trying, though...

Can you see an object, all of it, at once (all of its information)? Then expand that to include everything...it seems that in our present shell, we are limited by our senses...

Gilbert I understand and completely agree with what you said there, it's a beautiful thing. I have spent many days and nights (sometimes up to 30 days alone) in deep dark forests in the exquisite stillnes and I have come to know some truths regarding nature, the generosity and wisdom of the creator, myself and my spirit. But the forest does not tell me about you.. or her, or politics or what the true agenda of our governments are, or armagedon.. or the future, or or answers to all the things that get discussed in here. I know in our limited capacity it's not possible to know all truth, but most things do have a yes or no answer and it would be so useful to have access to that source of true knowledge. I might not be able to change the world but It would sure help me to get myself aligned correctly.

SOUL: The original language terms (Hebrew: nephesh, Greek: pyskhe) are used in the scriptures show "soul" to be a person, an animal or the life that te person or animal enjoys. The connotations the the English soul commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek writers. This fact has steadily gained wider aknowledgment. Back in 1897 the Journal of biblical Literature (Vol XVI, page 30), Professor C.A. Briggs as a result of detailed analysis of the use of Nephesh in Hebrew observed "Soul in English at the present time usually conveys a very different meaning from Nephesh in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret."
More recently, when the Jewish Publication Society of America issued a new translation of the Torah, or first five books of the Bible, the editor-in-chief, H.M Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College stated the the word soul had been virtually eliminated from this translation because "the Hebrew word in question here is 'Nefesh', he added: Other translators have interpreted it to mean 'soul', which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. Nefesh (or soul) is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being. Man does not have a soul He IS a soul' The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meaning attached to the English word 'soul' stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Greek Christian Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religeous thought. Greek philosopher Plato for example quotes Socrates saying: "The soul... if it departs goes away into that which is like itself, nto the invisible, devine, immortal, and wise and when it arrives there is happy, freed from error and folly and fear.. and all the other human ills, and... lives in truth wilt all after time with the gods" --Phaedo. 80, D,E, 81, A.

In direct contrast with the Greek taeching of the psykhe (soul) as being immaterial, intangable, invisible and immortal the scriptures show that both psykhe' and ne'phesh as used with refernce to earthly creatures refer to that which is material, tangible, earthly and mortal.

[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 05-28-2003).]