Topic awaiting preservation: Has anyone ever heard of "Wicca"?

Hey, I was wondering if any of you have ever heard or studied about Wicca?
I am currently studing in this field of religion and just wanted to know some of your thoughts! And for those of you who have no clue what I am talking about, just let me know and I will be sure to tell you about it if you would like to know.

BiGCaC

yeah tell me, I am pretty much clueless what you are talking about

I sort of know a bit about it. It's related to Witchcraft somehow and has to do with the nature spirits, spells and what-not. More info on this would be nice. And by the way, can men be Wiccan's?


.quotes.

Wicca is a neopagan, earth-centered religion .. Wicca is a religion based on the moon and the sun .. when they raise and set .. not to mention the beginning and end of civil twilight .. ever Monday the faeries play .. and play they do .. even more so if it's a full moon

there is a 1734 Tradition .. it's practically the witch 'laws' .. it's the teachings, writings, and inspiration of Robert Cochrane.

Do not what you desire -
do what is necessary.
Take all you are given -
give all of yourself.
"What I have - - - I hold!"
When all else is lost, and not until then,
prepare to die with dignity.

yes GN .. men can be Wiccan


.::. cEll .::. 513

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 05-09-2003).]

DEFINITIONS OF WICCAN TERM

Airts or Arts - The art of causing change through systematic use of the will and other natural forces. Some common goals in magic are healing, guidance, protection, and insight.
Cuveen or Coven - group of Wiccans with common religious goals and purposes, which meets regularly for the purpose of holding Esbats, Sabots, teaching, or for any other activity having a direct connection with Wicca.
Coven Council - a council selected by the High Priest and/or High Priestess of a Coven. It is convened due to a complaint made by them or a member of the Coven against them or a member of the Coven.
Cowan - A person that is not a Wiccan.
Esbat - Meetings held once or twice each Lunar month. Most Covens hold Esbat at the Full Moon (or the three days proceeding). Many hold Esbat at the New Moon or the Dark of the Moon (or the three days preceding or following).
Sabbat - Meetings held at the eight major seasonal holidays: the Equinoxes and the Solstice called the Quarter Days, and at the time of each season called Cross-Quarter Days; the Cross-Quarter Days fall at or about February 2, May 1, August 2, and October 31. There is also the festival known as
Twelfth Night - which occurs twelve (12) days after the Winter Solstice (Yule).
Tradition - A group of Covens having a common lineage and/or common form of practice.
Wicca, Witchcraft or The Craft - A religion including diverse Traditions related to many European and Mediterranean cultural sources. This religion worships feminine and masculine deities, and pays homage to The Mighty Dead. This corporation specifically excludes the Native American Religions, Native American Shaman and Native African religions from the definition of these words.
Wiccan - A person that has been properly Dedicated, Initiated or Ordained into the Religion of Wicca by a member of the Clergy who has the authority to perform that Dedication, Initiation or Ordination.
Witch - A person who worships and respects the Goddess(es) and God(s) of Witchcraft.




.::. cEll .::. 513

Yes, I've heard, studied, and AM Wiccan. What do you want to know? Personally I find the religious aspect of Wicca to be as fraught with dogma as most any other religion. Not to mention the attraction of "fluff" as I call them, people who have been drawn to the 'occultness' of it all. The magic inherent in the belief.

Yes, men can be Wiccan/witches. Don't ever call someone a warlock however. Warlock means othbreaker and is considered an insult of the highest degree.

My views differ from most Wiccans because, like I've stated here about most religions, I believe in the theology of the faith, not necessarily the religion. Most Wiccans believe you can be a witch without being Wiccan but have to be a witch in order to be Wiccan, that the rituals are vital to your Wiccan worship. Well I've been through the Rede and it doesn't seem to mention anything about a requirement to cast spells or to worship in any particular way. It requires a belief in magic (please don't ever, EVER say magick, I just find that irritating) but not necessarily the practice. The Rede is where 'Do as you will, 'an it harm none' comes from. Your basic golden rule modification (or precursor), as it were.

Lets see here...

The Witches' Voice Is an excellent site that has a great deal of information. It isn't a fanatics site nor is it some Fluffhead trying to make a name for themselves. Fritz and Wren are very level headed people and do their best to provide a good site and help Wiccans/Pagans network together. BTW Fritz has some great music out there. Buy a disk if you think you'll enjoy it.

SpiritWolf's Page I was looking for my Ex's "About Wicca" page that we had worked on together but apparently it has been taken down. This site has some of that information in an adapted/interpreted form. *WARNING* There is sound on this page... It's an irritating looping midi track and you can't shut it off. The page has good info though, so kill the speakers and read along.

Feel free to ask me questions... I'll be happy to answer them as best I can. Just know that I speak for myself only and no Wiccan speaks for all Wiccans.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

{EDIT}Stupid finger's{/EDIT}

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-09-2003).]

magick

{edit - runs into a side room as GD runs by screaming with webshaman's tomahawk...}

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 05-09-2003).]

WHAT??!!??

GD stole my tomahawk? This is war!!!!

ok I heard enaugh....umm no thanks I dont wanna join it

Starts scratching

I told him that irritated me. OW! Where the hell did this come from? It does do the job though. Ahhhhh... Yeah... That's the spot....

Did you want this back, WS?



GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

So, GD, I had no idea you were a warlock that is totally into magick

Seriously, I have a few questions. I understand that the idea of witches in the Middle Ages was fraught with Xian superstition and fears and was basically pushed onto some of the existing pagan beliefs. But how does your being Wiccan relate to anything that could be considered religion?

Do you have any beliefs that involve gods, nature gods, etc.?

If not, then what do you get out of Wicca?

Is it more a philosophy of life like Buddhism?

Are there rules that you must follow to be a Wiccan?

Is there an afterlife?

Is there good and evil? Who determines how they are defined?

I have more but those are the first that come to my mind.

. . : slicePuzzle

I studied Wicca for a while... even got through my first degree initiation, but somehow, it lacked something for me. Not quite sure what it is. Though I immensely enjoyed celebrating Sabbats. Nothing like running around and dancing on Halloween night with a bunch of other "normal" adults dressed in black robes drinking hard warm cider... Quite liberating, actually.

I always understood that adding the final "k" onto the word magic was only meant to distinguish between stage, or illusionist magic, and what occult groups refer to as "real" magic. It's a Crowley thing, I guess...



Bodhi - Cell 617

The idea of dancing around a fire on Halloween in black robes seems so odd to me. Can you please explain why that is done? I am very curious as to the significance of that. GD, do you participate in those kinds of rituals too?

edit

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 05-12-2003).]

Ooooo questions OK:

As the original beliefs of the Druids were effectively lost by the persecution of them first by the Romans and then by the Christians what is the basis of the Wiccan religion (I was of the understanding that it didn't effectively date back more than 150-200 years)?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

GD

Also. Does your asylum name have anything to do with WICCA?
If so, what does it mean?

Ach... I'm not ignoring you Bug's... I'm just at work. I'll get at it tonight and have something, probably lengthy, for you later on.

Basic rundown on your quick questions though:

Do you have any beliefs that involve gods, nature gods, etc.?

Yes. Wiccan believe in a God and Goddess, but not as actual entities themselves. They are the male and female portions of nature and we humanize those natural things we can't understand. They don't have names but those we give, nor do they have faces but those we give them. Hence all gods are the same gods even if there is only one actual deity instead of many. For instance my representation of my Goddess is a Luminescent Dragon that I call the Celestial Dragon. Just my image for something beyond my understanding and hardly one that expect other people would say they visualized.

If not, then what do you get out of Wicca?

See above. Wicca is pretty much the same thing that most religions are. Basic structures to help guide people towards harmony with each other and some explaination of things that are beyond our reach. That's basically all religion is.

Is it more a philosophy of life like Buddhism?

Well, Hmmm... I'm not particularily versed in Buddhism but I know that Wiccan's believe all life is connected by the energies of creation (which I suppose is the 'real' deity of Wicca). All life and structure belongs to this pool of energy that I, obscurely, call the 'All' or the 'Essence of Creation'. Everything comes from the 'Essence' and returns to the 'Essence'

Are there rules that you must follow to be a Wiccan?

Only one rule. Do as you will as it harms none. This rule covers everything. There is the Threefold Law which is really more of a belief then a Rule that basically states that any wrong you visit on another will be returned to you three times.

Is there an afterlife?

There is but I always have a hard time defining it. It is somewhat collectively called the 'SummerLands' (or at least I call it that). Once you've learned how to control yourself and your mind you can control your afterlife. It is somewhat limited to the knowledge of life that you have however. If you are a 'bad' person I imagine your Summerland isn't going to be a very pleasant place... even for you. Spirits in their summerlands are in a place of reflection and comfort. Wiccan's don't call on spirits for this reason. It's tantamount to ripping someone from their dreams. The afterlife is not an ending point. It is a resting place. When we choose (if we've learned that much control) we can return to another physical form. In the SummerLands time does not pass and things are limited to our knoweledge of life. In order to learn, we MUST become corporeal again. It is the only way to expand our experiences.

Is there good and evil? Who determines how they are defined?

There is no good and evil. There is only creation. The raw powers of creation have made some pretty nasty things but is it at fault? I don't see creation as having a particular purpose or will. It just is. Without purpose there is no malice to define evil. Without purpose there is no benevolence to define good.

Like I said that's the quick and dirty and purely based on MY particular beliefs and interpretations. Please ask me questions. It's been a long time since I talked to someone about this. I had forgotten how much I like to discuss it.

quote:

---

The idea of dancing around a fire on Halloween in black robes seems so odd to me. Can you please explain why that is done? I am very curious as to the significance of that. GD, do you participate in those kinds of rituals too?

---

I have been to some rituals but they were very open and toned down forms of such things. It seemed rather hollow to me like going to church felt like when I still went. I haven't been to a... hmmm... somber(?) ritual before. I'm not part of a coven and I actually don't want to be. I have, and do perform spells but they are specific only to myself and nothing so stupid as lighting a 'money' candle or something. I don't have a book of shadows nor do I intend to have one. As a matter of fact most 'spells' have effects that are recognized by modern science and other paranormal abilities.

Well... I'm getting to the rant part of my feelings on this so I think I'll take a break. As I mentioned before. Feel free to ask me questions either here or in mail (my E-mail link actually *works*). I am GrythusDraconis(grythyn@hotmail.com) on MSN and my Q# is 36989887. I truly enjoy talking about this as I'm sort of closeted about it most of the time. Ask Away!

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-09-2003).]

edit

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 05-12-2003).]

Ok Wow I was surpirsed that so many of you replied and knew so much about Wicca. My name really has nothing to do with my religion, see I am not suppose to expose it to "the muddan" world. Muddan world is just people who are not witches. A guy is called a witch, because if you are a warlock or wizzard your consider evil, and your coven or the god and goddess abandoned you for wrong doing. And we don't all dress in black or dance around a fire! That is just movie stuff. We do dance sometimes it all depends on the ritual or spell. You don't really believe in Satan. The point of the rituals vary from spell to spell. See the reason why we worship the sabbats is because of the earths changing and each change has a different relationship to the god and goddess. Example is in the winter time the god has died and the goddess is going threw her birth process of giving birth to the god all over again. And when the spring returns it is to show that the god is born healthy and everything is alive and well.
Some of you may think this is similar to Christian beliefs. But Wicca goes back much further then Christians. We also believe in Demons. They are the trapped evil souls that just want to basically turn everything into hell. We also believe in Three Folds. Three Folds is what you do to others comes back to you times three. I am in a coven and we meet all the time, it is hard to be a witch because you have all these people who think wicca and witchcraft is evil and you worship the devil. But really that is not what it is about, and we are constantly critized for our beliefs. If any of you would like to know more about what my coven and I do, or just wicca and witchcraft ingeneral let me know!
Thanks for all the replies!

Also what GrythusDraconis is talking about beinging "intune" with life and nature and everything is all connected is called "The ALL". Which means everything is created equally and is all combined with a force.

BiGCaC

[This message has been edited by BiGCaC (edited 05-09-2003).]

Um, InSiDeR... I could be mistaken, but I think Jade was referring just to GD, not to everyone. Obviously not everyone's name will be a Wiccan reference, but perhaps GD's is. I think that's what she asked.

My name is derived in part from my Wiccan name. Not exactly to be sure but similar.

Sorry Emp's you slipped in there while I was posting. There is some conflict as to where the origins of Wicca have actually come from. There is some definite Druidic influences in pagan beliefs and certain parts of pagan structure can be seen in todays religions. Wicca, in and of itself isn't all that old. About... hmm... 65 years now? Gerald Gardner I think it was that came up with the idea in the 40's. There is much debate about whether this is true or not. No one can pin-point or find the impetus that caused him to begin this movement of paganism. Needless to say it has continued to grow and prosper. I've heard some tales that Gardner found some island somewhere in the mediteranean sea that had the remnants of the atlanteans that still followed this belief or something. Obviously I'm not putting much credence in this story.

I guess that makes it more of a philosophy than a religion I suppose. By definition doesn't that make most religions philosophy?

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

I tend to consider religion and philosophy to be similar but I would say religion leans more towards involved dieties whereas philosophy doesn't. I don't know how that compares to strict definitions.

quote:

---

My name is derived in part from my Wiccan name. Not exactly to be sure but similar.

---

Oh, I stand corrected .

See, when I first read that I didn't see "name."

Philosophy is more about the nature of humans (Mankind), and religion is more about the nature of everything...and Mankinds place in it...IMHO.

Wicca seems to have a lot of elements of my peoples beliefs...especially that we are interconnected with everything on a spiritual level (equal). No real 'gods' though...just spirit 'entities'.

Philosophy vs. Religion:

Philosophy we take credit for understanding or attempting to understand something.

Religion we attribute credit for something (or everything) to something else (god, nature, twinkies, whatever.)

Most of my experience with "wiccans" has been pretty poor. I know this isn't representitive of the majority, but just as with most other religions, factions, or cults, the worst of the group is usually the loudest. So I've mostly dealt with the "we're cool because we're witches ... wooo..." glamgoth wannabes.

That's probably a lot of the reason I've never been able to align myself to any religion. While I would consider myself agnostic, I'm basically a pragmatic atheist as far as the day to day basis goes. I envy those of you that can actually truely believe in religion (whichever one). I don't believe you can choose what you believe. If you have to choose it, then you don't really believe in it do you.

That all said, I've always lived my life according to a lot of the things that many of the older religions were based off of. "Do only that which is good" pretty much sums it up. I don't pretend to know what will happen in life or death. All we have is now and we should all make now as good as we can. If there is a later, good. If not, make what you can of now.

</babble>

<edit>mE iz kant tipe 2 gud</edit>

[This message has been edited by MindBender (edited 05-10-2003).]

For awhile I considered myself Wiccan, until I discovered the actual "religion". I thought it was interesting that there was a religion out there that contained a great many of my beliefs. But as the rituals started getting pushed down my throat, I became a little disillusioned with the whole thing. I've been very content to tell people that I can't tell them my religion, because it doesn't have a name. If pushed I'll hesitantly say pagan, because of the many connotations that word carries. But mostly I believe in the interconnectedness of spirit, that spirit is within everything, and through that interconnection there is a culmination of spirit... a higher entity beyond understanding. Oh... and uh... reincarnation too. : )

just a nitpick here:
philosophy of life - with or without rituals is religion imo.
wicca, xianity, buddhism, bahai, hinduism, zoroastrianism, islam - all have philosophies of life and rituals.. even cults qualify as they are subsets of a religion with philosophies of life and rituals...

ok, back to your arguments...

True, good point. I also studied Buddisim for all while, but I never really liked it. Though Wicca and Buddisim have similar things to them, they are still very different.

BiGCaC

I too am currently studying in the ways of wiccan and pagan, but my main interest is in native shamanism. Just thought I would let you guys know. I think at times that paganism kind of ties shamanism and wicca in some points, but then again that is my observation. Wolf, raven and panther are the totems that have chosen me.

[This message has been edited by Wolfen (edited 05-11-2003).]

Just to butt in for a moment...

I always find it funny when the term 'pagan' is used as if it were a religion, when all the word means is that the person in question is not a chirstian (or a jew, or muslim).

Here is the definition of pagan from Mirriam-Webster Dictionary...
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

In my earlier post, this is what I was referring to with regards to all the connotations associated with the word pagan. It has come to mean many things in colloquial language; follower of a non-judeo-christian religion being one of them. (and all of the negatives that are associated with it- heathen and devil-worshippers often being used synonomously) In many references, and especially when referred to in a religious sense, it means a follower of a nature-based religion. Again, this is based on colloquial connotation, but then-that is how language grows.

Sorry for the off-topic-butting-in reply, but i was wondering if anyone could forward me some websites regarding neo-Druidic writings or information. Something credible if you would, please.
{edit}stupid diction{/edit}



[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-12-2003).]

Sanzen: check here: http://www.wicca.ws/modules.php?op=modload&name=Web_Links&file=index&req=viewlink&cid=6



The programmer's national anthem is 'AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH''

Wolfen's Sig Site

There are quite a large number of "traditions" of Wicca that are followed, in the US, and in Europe. The largest "tradition" of European Wicca is the Gardenerian Tradition, started by Gerald Gardener in the last century. It is a formalized tradition drawing from Celtic Druidism, and some other occult traditions, primarily those of the Golden Dawn and the Ordo Templi Orientis (that would be Alistair Crowley's group) as well as Egyptian religion and shamanism in some cases. There are many others, most draw heavily from Celtic traditions, some claim to be family traditions passed down for hundreds of years... in a lot of cases, most any practice that can be linked to Celtic spirituality is often considered "Wiccan", though I expect that's more due to people not knowing exactly what's what in the occult traditions.
"Modern" Wicca is truly only a few decades old, though the roots it is drawn from are centuries upon centuries old. I believe there are some families that have practiced hereditary witchcraft for generations, but there are fewer of those than you might think.

The "black robes" are only ritual dress - not all covens require black as a color - some actually prefer other colors, so as not to be mistaken for Satanists up to no good. The coven I was practicing with at the time was "herediatary" and very traditional. The dancing is just the types of traditional dancing common at these types of gatherings. Group dances, suitable for a bunch of people just out to have fun... And what Halloween gathering wouldn't be complete without a great big bonfire? No big symbolism there - just a cool thing to have at a party.

There is some ritual that goes on at Sabbats, but for the most part, it's just a big celebration of a holiday - same as Christmas, or New Year's, or Hannukah, or any other religion specific holiday. If you're a member of the coven, you're expected to dress in ritual attire, but if you're not a member of the coven, well, they didn't expect you would have ritual dress necessarily, and so there were people there dressed in plain clothes as well...

The only reason I'm not still a part of any coven is that while I enjoyed the practice of Wicca, I never quite felt that it really satisfied my spirituality. I've studied and practiced many other types of occult spiritual traditions since then, and have recently embarked on a study of shamanism and some eastern mystic traditions. I find that most of them teach the same things fundamentally. It all comes down to specific dogma.

Bodhi - Cell 617

I'm sorry that I missed this thread until now.

I am wiccan but I can't add to much more than what has been stated already. Basically, wicca is a brand of witchcraft. It is relatively new as it didn't exist at the time Margot Adler wrote Drawing Down the Moon. It is distinguished from other types of witchcraft in that it more eclectic and less hierarchial in it's power structures than older traditions .

Wiccans rever nature and believe in a god and a goddess. We believe men and women are equal. We believe in magic and are sometimes too concerned with the ethics of using it. Just like in other beliefs, we have our fundamentalists and our kooks. Because the witch has a negative image, the kooks tend to get the news coverage but most wiccans are regular people who just worship different deities from the judeo-christian god.

Bugimus, you'll hear that wearing robes come from a time when witches were persecuted and needed to maintain secrecy. I don't believe such stories. I believe wearing robes helps people let go of their day to day concerns. People don't wear this type of clothing; usually, so wearing it helps you get into the mindset that you are doing something magical. We dance around a bonfire at many of our holidays, not just at Halloween. Halloween is called Samhain and is both the beginning of the year and the time when the spirits of those who passed away visit their families one last time before departing to the Summerland, our version of heaven. Samhain tends to be a mix of solemness and merriment as we remember those friends who have passed away. Much like an irish wake without the drunkeness.

As opposed to Franciscan monks which wear... um. no.. wait, that's robes. Well, Catholic priests wear... no, er... those are robes too. But Bhudists... nope. Robes.

Really, wearing robes as part of religious attire is pretty common. Truth be told, pants are a pretty recent invention.


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

Ummm...no. My people have been wearing leather pants for who knows how long...now, Jeans are a relatively recent invention...especially designer jeans

Good point Mindbender. However, my point was that most run of the mill non-religious vocation people, such as me, do not wear robes on a day to day basis. Wearing the robes signals to your mind that you are doing something out of the ordinary.

By the way, I wear jeans.

Well, depending if it is allowed in a coven (given coven rules..) or if you work alone, you could always cast aside the robes and just go 'skyclad' hehehe.

I've never had the nerve to go skyclad. I would also find it distracting as some of my fellow coveners were quite attractive. Add to the mix the fact that I'm married and my Beltanes could have been rather uncomfortable. It's not easy to hide sexual interest when you're naked

Sure it is, you just call it "religious fervor"

Moth, robes are comfy though... you gotta admit... yours hooded or no? If it werent so frowned upon i might wear mine all the time. just for the sheer joy and traditionalism of it. then again, i'd have a staff too if it weren't considered a weapon

Sure it is, you just call it "religious fervor"

Hee hee hee

Hey baby, want to start a big religious movement?

____________________________________________________________

I'm between robes at the moment. I haven't had a need for them since I'm no longer part of a practicing coven. I had three at one time. Two red. One grey. No black one. One of the red ones had a detachable hood. That robe was destroyed when the apartment air conditioning flooded my closet. (Don't ask) The grey one was my favorite but I outgrew it when I started to put on weight. (I weighed only 135 lbs when I made it. I now weigh around 190 lbs.)

I've always thought black robes was so cliche`d. Plus many people who wear black seem to saying to the world, "Hey, look how witchy I am." Bleah!

Red robes were the color of the life force so it appealed to me.

Grey robes implied neutrality and that I was willing to bend the "an harm none" rule that seems to paralyze so many wiccans when it comes to magic work. I annoyed alot of the fluffy white lighters in the Athens, Ohio area.




[This message has been edited by Moth (edited 05-14-2003).]

I had a green one, made of a silky material, i've recently switched to blue. I think after a while i'm just going to start wearing it full time. Not to gain attention, just as a part of tradition..

I never liked the idea of robes... mostly because it reminds me of the stagnant tradition of the christian church. I want to see Wicca progress and grow with it's following. It really is one of the few religions around today that has that potential. It has the chance to not get so mired in dogma and tradition that it alienates most of it's following. I see no reason to follow traditions for traditions sake. Give me a reason. If it isn't necessary... let it go, so long as the main tenets of the belief are held paramount. Especially since such meaningless traditions make WIcca more abhorent to the understanding of the masses. I'm not here to flaunt my beliefss to anyone... nor do I want to hide them. I just want to be accepted like everyone else. Unfortunately it is much like the pink tu-tu wearing nutbag that prances about in Gay pride marches. It's the loud wierd ones that get the attention... meanwhile the suit wearing businessman is over looked who has actually found a way to make his lifestyle work in real life.

Well damn.... [/RANT]

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

I only encountered real hatemongers against witchcraft among the bullies on high school, and they'd pick on anyone different so that was pretty obvious.

Personally the only wiccans I've met so far were mostly very gentle insecure people with lots of childhood problems, with two exceptions. I've also met the other kind, the evil types, but they too, were mostly gentle insecure people with lots of childhood problems who tried to compensate their lack of a grasp on their real lives with spooking each other on how powerful they were.
I tried being a wicca but I did conclude that there's really no such thing as trying. Either you are one, or you're not. I'm not. But I do think that the modern wiccan movement is something very positive because it promotes awareness of your surroundings

edit: I always thought that "magick" was the source for the sorcerors (who draw power from within themselves) as opposed to "magic" which is the forces of nature on which witches draw.




[This message has been edited by Fey (edited 05-14-2003).]

'Magick' is just one of those terms that witches have created for themselves so that they can feel more special. It's a pointless statement of separation, and it isn't neccessary to boot. When you speak of it... does it sound different? Well... no. A 'K' isn't going to change the connotation or denotation of the word.

I don't believe that is the attempt when witch says 'magick'. All magic is energy, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Within or without it's the same energy and therfore needs no other name.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

So would it be considered bad to draw energy from within yourself, instead of relying on the energy of nature?

No, not at all... Energy is energy. If I draw on myself to enervate my will (i.e. cast a spell) it is a different sort of thing than drawing from the life around me. Besides that... we're all part of nature. Drawing on ones own energy is drawing on nature's energy.

I tend to be an internalist as far as spells go. Drawing on myself allows the natural world to replenish me without tapping it directly. Just my preference. I'm very much for not interfering with things that might not want to be interfered with. Drawing on the life around me...even in small part feels like I'm taking something away... when I'm really just trying to give... Does that make sense? I'd much rather give of myself... the only sacrifice I have the right to make, then take the energy of something else for my own purposes.

Another reason that I don't draw from that which is around me is that I can only handle so much energy... I can only draw what I have from myself, thusly staying within my basic limits. If I draw from the wealth of energy around me I can very easily lose control and be overwhelmed by it. Especially if I'm in a powerful spot.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

quote:

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I see no reason to follow traditions for traditions sake. Give me a reason. If it isn't necessary... let it go, so long as the main tenets of the belief are held paramount.

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Interesting. I hope it wouldn't surprise you too much to know that there are still some Christians who feel that same way about their faith

Thanks very much for the info GD, bodhi23, and Moth. This is very interesting. GD, it sounds like this is a relatively new religion. What determines who is and isn't a Wiccan? I mean, do you just make up your own version of Wicca or is there some standard. I guess what I would really like to know is what are the main tenets of the belief? In your own words.

Perhaps I should ask, what exactly would you tell a person if they told you they wanted to join your faith?

I'm running on here but you said:

quote:

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Only one rule. Do as you will as it harms none. This rule covers everything. There is the Threefold Law which is really more of a belief then a Rule that basically states that any wrong you visit on another will be returned to you three times.

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My Xian faith definitely fulfills the one rule you mention but not the Threefold Law. Does that mean I qualify as a Wiccan too? Can a Wiccan believe in the God of the bible and still be a Wiccan in the opinion of Wiccans?

Sorry if any of that sounds strange but I'm just letting my mind blurt out questions

. . : slicePuzzle

I always thought there's two mainstream movements in Wicca: the Alexandrian and the Gardnerian and people who follow these tend to do at least the main 8 yearly rituals the same way. There's also the possibility of being an "ecclestical Wiccan" or Solitary, which means you don't stick with a coven but go your own way and make up your own rules.

But this is a very crude dividing. Maybe because freedom and equality is highly praised among the Wiccans that it is hard for one Wiccan to decide if someone else is a Wiccan too. I'm not convinced if anyone is qualified to say "Yes, YOU are a Wiccan but no, you other person, you are not."

A Wiccan could believe in God. But I'd think it highly unlikely s/he would only believe in the father god because part of the beliefs are about the equality of the male/female principle, the Goddess as Mother of All next to the God as Father of All. And I don't think that the Bible God can live up to that, since the Bible is kinda male-oriented. Wiccans probably have far less trouble with accepting Jesus in their beliefs.
(the Irish catholicism is probably the best exemple of how a wiccan-related culture and the catholic faith merged)

ah..this was another rather useless addendum :/ Anyhow, I have a question too. Is Wiccan as far as to be considered an institutionalised faith or is it still a chain of ideas and beliefs?

Bugs: It really depends what that person wants to get into, but the biggest suggestion that I can give is 'Do your research and decide for yourself if this is what you are really willing to do.' I come from a personal standpoint on this. I work half alone, and half with a teacher. I learn and research what I can, and work with my gifts that I can give into my faith. The Major questions would be 'Would you be comfortable doing this work anywhere in the world? Would you be willing to put up with the criticizm if and when you mention of your faith to others?' There is the matter of some people act negatively towards others that are not of their faith. Then again, that comes with all faiths of the world.

Also is the person physically or.... the big one... mentally strong enough to handle the said faith? Sometimes religious or counseling practices can be physically and mentally taxing on a person if there is ritual or spiritual work to be done. Again, it depends on what particular faith that person chooses and what work that certain person does. If that person shows that they can, other than just saying yes, then maybe their life is meant for that faith. I my opinion... you have to have the heart to follow it wholly. With all of this, I am speaking from my own experience and these are the questions that I would definately ask if someone were to follow the path that I walk of the Native Shaman.

[added] Yes. Wiccan is a recognized religion in the USA. As far as a chain of beliefs, that is still debated a bit. (My own opinion on that too.)

[This message has been edited by Wolfen (edited 05-16-2003).]

Wolfen, this surprised me...'Native Shaman'...could you maybe expand on this? What exactly, is this? What does it entail?

It comes very close to a term that my people use...I would like to know more.

I'm curious about this "Native Shaman" thing too. Care to elucidate?

I don't think that someone who really is a Christian, could also be considered Wiccan. (for the record, the religion is Wicca, a person who practices it is considered Wiccan) My reason for this remark is because of the deities involved. Wiccans believe in a two-part deity - a god and goddess. Most Wiccans will tell you that all gods are one god, and all goddesses one goddess, and they consider that the 2 are 1.

However, the belief doesn't really translate well the other way. The Christian belief is that there is One God, the Father Almighty (who is also His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, and the Holy Spirit, interchangeably). I suppose, for the sake of argument, one could say that the goddessaspect is implied through the existence of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. But then that wouldn't really be true Christianity, would it? But Mary is not considered to be a goddess, and neither is the Holy Spirit. I don't think that a devout Christian would be able to reconcile that belief with what the Bible says.

But I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most religions, when you come right down to the meat of the subject, are teaching the exact same things. Just using different stories, myths, and dogmas to get the message across.

When I was practicing Wicca, and someone asked me about what the beliefs were, I always answered this: That Wicca is a nature-based religion that draws from spiritual ideas going all the way back into the beginning of time. Wiccans honor both a male and female deity, who are referred to as the god and goddess, and given names appropriate to the tradition, time of year, and purpose of invocation. And then quote the Rede and the Threefold Law. Beyond that, beliefs are limited to the tradition you are following.

Alexandrian and Gardenerian are the biggest two, but there is also Dianic Witchcraft, and the Fellowship of Isis, both "women only" traditions, but they still consider themselves to be Wiccan. And Salem, MA has their very own witch, Laurie Cabot (she's really extreme, but mostly for marketing reasons)...
Basic practices and seasonal observances are very similar in all traditions, the verbiage of the rituals tends to differ, as well as the amount of external religious influence (i.e.: Egyptian, Golden Dawn, OTO, etc...). A solitary wiccan can do rituals any way s/he wants to - provided the Rede and Threefold Law are followed. There are many other traditions. It's been a long time since I've looked them up, but they exist.

Most Wiccan covens can be considered legal churches now, but that has only be a decade or so in existence. When I was practicing, it was still in debate.

The biggest issue for solitary witches is the initiations. There are 3 degrees in witchcraft, with the first degree being the noviate, and the 3rd being High Priest or Priestess. Generally, initiations are received from the HP or HPS of the coven one practices with. Who initiates a solitary witch? If you're truly solitary, you can confer upon yourself the 1st and 2nd degrees (or, the God/dess sonfers the degree on you), but the actual 3rd degree rite requires the assistance of another witch, and can't technically be done for oneself. However, the rules tend to be very flexible, and so you could conceiveably do the rite alone. The only difficulty comes in when you're trying to get the recognition from a traditional coven. If you're truly solitary, I suppose it wouldn't matter.


Bodhi - Cell 617

Sorry Bugs... you snuck in there on me. Really the only things that you need to believe in are the Rede "An it harm none, Do as you will" or whichever direction you'd like to read it, and a belief in magic. There isn't any need to practice it, IMHO, but it IS there. My understanding of the God and Goddess is that they are what our consciousness can deal with. In a Xian's mind... they may well have melded them into one being (or three). So yes... It seems, for the most part you 'qualify' as a wiccan. Usually the resistence to being accepted as a Wiccan is based on the other religions beliefs. Most Christians can't see believing in a faith that touches on a world that they are told doesn't exist, or shouldn't exist and should be stamped out. For clarification, ESP, telekinesis, and telepathy are some of the 'magics' that Wicca believes in. Nothing particularily odd but things that have been experienced by many and proven to exist (if not explained) by science. Some of the spells that are cast are manipulations of energy in ourselves and/or others. Not unlike acupuncture/pressure and other such things. Through contact and mental manipulation we can ease pain, calm nerves and the like. Almost like a re-alignment. Ask my fincee. I try and put a little extra into my massages and I can also take her bad dreams away. Dreamscaping someone elses dreams is more difficult but... possible. A point, one that I've let pass a few times. Someone here seems to think our avoidence of harm is unnecessary and stands in the way of who we are. I can't agree with this. I think that statement goes against the only paramount rule that Wicca has. What I've done with my fiancee and others, is done with permission. I'm not going to help someone when they don't want it. In truth that help may be more of a hindrence to them in the future.

Here is a link that might shed some more light on the topic of Xian Wiccans. Can a person be both a Wiccan and a Christian?

I've dealt with Cabot before. I don't like her. She epitomizes what I don't like about most new entries to Wicca. After speaking with her... I just can't see her faith being as true as it once was. I think she's after fame and money now. Fritz and Wren of Witch's Voice used to work for her... as did my Ex-Wife. They all left for reasons of disagreement and personal dislike. At least that is my understanding.

As an aside... I'm really, really trying to keep tabs on this thread. Keep asking questions you want answered. If it seems I've missed some... please, ask again. There is a bit of a crossover to this other thread Bewitched =) that InI started. I'm not sure if I'm really involved or not but... it seems to be more on the meditative side of things.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-19-2003).]

GD (and pos. others) has cast spells - have you observed any actual physical changes due to casting a spell (which don't have a simpler explanation) or is it more of form of visualisation so you can channel your energies towards a goal (or am I missing the point)?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

physical? i've never tried... i dont cast much.... just meditate... bless and be me and one with nature... a lot of times the whole spellcasting thing is blown out of proportion, and to tell you the truth i've never seen anyone cast a spell to harm another person, as its not part of wiccan belief (thus threefold)... there are lots of healing spells, and i've never seen one performed or performed one myself, so you'd have to ask bodhi or gd or wolfen (because wolfen is a shaman) ... and uhh ... webshaman.... is a shaman .... *cries*



[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-19-2003).]

Physical changes like lightning bolts and glowing eyes? Levitating like in Chramed (not a typo) the movie? No. Things like that I suppose can happen but most of that sort of thing... I guess would be a visualization for my own benefit. When I look at my fiancee, lets say... I can usually see her tension. Almost like watching auras. Healthy (to me) is blue. Unhealthy areas are red. And it isn't like a visual thing either. Usually I build a 'map' of her back when I move my hands over her skin. The visualization is basically finding the 'lay line' for lack of better terminology between myself and the 'thing' that I am trying to do for the person... or myself I suppose. Sifting through the tapestry of life between myself and my fiancee. Finding the thread that will let me ease her tension... typically by realeasing it through myself. I draw off her pain and release it from myself. I am a conduit but if I hold it for too long I keep it. Then she gets to fix my back... or whatever =) Is it just my touch and knowledge? Maybe. It's a simpler explaination. I just happen to see it differently. It could just be that all massuses are doing this to some extent. Who's to know?

If you mean do my 'spells' have effect. Then yes I can usually see that people are more relaxed or feeling better or sleeping better or whatever it is that I've asked them to let me help them with. I hesitate to call what I do spellcraft but it falls under the Wiccan definition of magic... so... hmm... My fiancee slept well for the first time after I tried to help her with her dreams. Was that me? I dunno. Maybe my offer helped her and I'm just wishing it was so. Could be. I believe otherwise, however. Regardless, the achieved effect was the same. She slept better.

Oh something I thought I'd mention. The Threefold Law works both ways... Any 'good' that you do a person is returned to you threefold as well. It's just mostly brought up in the derogatory terms because most people ask what stops us from doing 'bad' things if there is no 'punishment.'

The Threefold Law is less a punishment then it is a checkpoint. A place to stop and REALLY look at what you are about to do. Understand what the consequences are for doing that thing... and accepting the risks to yourself for doing it even though you can see repercussions. I myself... have never experienced the Threefold Law... and I'm not the most perfect person in the world. I think it is the conscience of Wicca. That ethereal figure shaking their finger at you when you know you're being bad. There is no (or should be no) accidental wrongness caused by a Wiccan. They should know what they are doing... or at the very least. understand that they are soley responsible for their actions.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

i dont know if GD is agreeing with me or correcting me.. hmpf haha

GD: Thanks for the answer. You said:

quote:

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If you mean do my 'spells' have effect. Then yes I can usually see that people are more relaxed or feeling better or sleeping better or whatever it is that I've asked them to let me help them with.

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And when I was asking about physical effects I was really after something quantifiable but that in itself might be my error in trying to over rationalise things. Hmmmmmmmmm......

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

basically, when you cast spells, your hands dont glow like fire, your eyes down brighten like you see in the movies, things dont light up.. its really a very personal, inner experience, forgot you said quantifiable... could you pick a different word?



[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-19-2003).]

Sanzen, I'm not a real Shaman of my people...the way to becoming a true Shaman among my people is long, hard, and demands a life-long devotion. If I have given you the impression that I am really a Shaman, then I truly apologize, for that is incorrect (and would be wrong of me in any regards).

I'm very interested in hearing where these rituals and spells come from...what are their sources? In that, I mean, are they written down? And where were they originally copied from? I'm mainly interested in the origins of said things.

Another thing I would like to point out : dealing with spirits, and rituals (maybe spells, as well) is very dangerous to the uninitiated and the unlearned - and shouldn't be messed around with. It is no joking matter. My people have created rituals over thousands of years, through trial and error. Only an experienced and learned practitioner should attempt them. My people don't often do this, as dealing with spirits is tricky, at best. A Shaman only does this when it is absolutely necessary - communing with Nature is one thing...and interpreting omens and signs as well...but actual contact and communication is a tricky and dangerous thing.

In my experience, some spells are written down and passed on, others are created as necessary to take advantage of the time and situation. Ritual is slightly different than spell. Spells are generally cast in rituals, but they don't have to be. More power is generated in ritual, than say, on the fly... but it would still work provided the intent is there.

GD seems to be focusing on healing magic, whereas I think what Emps is asking about is other types of spells. They work. It's not usually obvious exactly how they work, but they work. I still cast spells when one is necessary, even though I'm not a practicing witch anymore. I have a particularly good job hunting spell, actually, that I've used several times. It's a combination of several traditions and methods - but I've gotten my last 3 jobs using it...
And I have one or 2 protection spells (mostly just anti-negativity) that really come in handy. For the most part, I write my own stuff. I do sometimes borrow verbiage and structure from other written material, but usually, I come up with it on my own.
In a lot of cases, it's mostly your strength of focus and will that cause "magic" to happen - so if you're really focused, and have a lot of will, you don't even need to formulate a spell. It, like the robes and other accoutrements, is simply a tool to help you manipulate the energy that's already there. Like GD was saying about ley lines and auras...


Bodhi - Cell 617

Sorry if I've been unclear.

What I'm angling at is not some fancy movie style effects - prayers and spells can work but so does the placebo effect. So what I was wondering was if your spells had had results whih couldn't be explained so easily?

However, I am also open to the fact that being of an overly scientific mind perhaps I over analysing things and that if it works then why question it?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Well, none of that fancy hollywood stuff actually happens in magic... Even a real magician can do stuff with special effects, but that's not the magic part of it.

And you're perfectly right about the placebo effect. That's one of the reasons "magic" can't be proven. It doesn't work any better than chance when put to controlled tests. Scientists won't call it proven unless it can be shown to work consistently better than chance in repetative experiments.

So, in looking for scientific evidence of magic, you won't find any. But a true believer will tell you they don't need scientific proof...


Bodhi - Cell 617

Now that I'm reading this: lots of the effects that people associate with visual, physical magic-doers, like glowing blue eyes and flapping clothes and all, it sounds like the effects lightning would have on a person.
Maybe this image has come into existence because once, one day, someone was hit by lightning, for some reason channeled it, and blew up a building or a bunch of trees

Magic and electricity have lots of their symptoms in common. Some Wiccans, mostly the cyberwitches or neopagans or whatever they call themselves, took up electricity as an element in their spells, equal to air, water, fire and earth.

I have another question: the four elements as mentioned before: water, fire, air and earth, are tied to the four directions: north, south, east and west. But not everyone ties the same element to the same direction. Ever since I was little I tied it like this: north-air, east-fire, south-earth and west-water. Now sit back and think for yourself, how do you connect it?
Because it seems that the association differs from person to person.




[This message has been edited by Fey (edited 05-20-2003).]

In my Mexican culture, there are "curanderos" (curers) who are persons who deal with curing people of their ailments, be it physical, mental or dealing with direct problems people are having with their lives. This practice of curing is very popular with hispanics in the latin countries. These curanderos deal with good and evil forces and call upon both sides depending on a persons petitions or desires. This involves casting spells, astrology, tarot cards, praying, & the petitioner performing certain rituals to clear evil spells against them, like making a pilgrimage, etc. One very popular spell is "the ojo"( the eye). This is when a person is eyed intently or stared at and some kind of negative energy is released to them which could make them have a sickness given to them by the seer. The way to cure this spell is to crack an egg in a bowl, pray to God over it, put it under the bed of the sick person. If the egg cooks the person is cured and did have "the ojo". This is common practice for infants, because they are stared at and touched because of there innocence and cuteness. This all sounds very silly, but you would be surprised how many religious people believe in this form of magic power.

So many people deal with the spiritual powers beyond this world. I am reminded of Nancy Reagen too, when she consulted with an astrologer in advising her husband in political matters and his welfare.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-20-2003).]

You seem to have an awful lot of experience with things you ought not have experience with, according to your statements about your beliefs.

Interesting that.

I used to tie the elements to the cardinal directions but I stopeed doing that because it left out the most important one (to me) Akasha or spirit. So I orient mine against the pentacle instead. I 'organize' my pentacle according to my elemental balance. Spirit at the top, Earth in my right hand, Fire in my left hand, Water on the lower left and Air on the lower right. Pressed more for on the cardinals I would say earth is south, fire is north, air is east, and water is west. But that's just me.

Colors associated with different energies also vary from person to person. It's a comfort/personal expression of understanding. I hardly think there is an 'Only Way' for it to be.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Hmm... in all the traditions I ever studied, North was always associated with Earth. But whether you started the circle in the North, with Earth, or in the East, with Air was what was debatable.

The Spirit element was always invoked from above, the capstone to the 4 quarters. It was this way in both the Wiccan coven I studied with, as well as in the Quabbalistic traditions I participated in. Though I have seen the elemental pentagram used in various rituals...


Bodhi - Cell 617

GD

I never stated I believed in all of it. Just that it was prevalent in my culture.
It is against my belief to dabble in black magic, tarot cards, spells, etc. I never have contacted a palm reader, curandero, or ever dialed up psychic hotline, etc.

quote:

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I never stated I believed in all of it.

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Nor did I state that you did. I just mentioned that you seemed to have far more knowledge of it then is usually exhibited by those who don't believe in it. I found it interesting.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Oh.

OK.

But I do believe in the powers of darkness just as I believe in the power of goodness. I just would never attempt to open a door to it thru any cult or medium to the dark side.