Topic awaiting preservation: Atheism vs. Agnosticism: The difference... (Page 1 of 1)

I found some of this interesting. A few pull quotes..

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Atheism vs. Agnosticism: The difference between the two

If you?re of the mindset that atheism is the positive belief that there are no gods, you?re wrong.


The Second Coming:
Another Failed Promise
We've heard Christians re-word, re-phrase, re-explain, re-interpret and re-hash, ad nauseam, the passages in the New Testament that speak of "His glorious return," but what have we seen? Zip, zilch, nada, nothing! And this is what we will keep seeing. We will keep hearing that same tired ol' song, as long as there are impressionable people around who will believe it.

Is the Christian God Logical?
So, we find that God cannot have free will and be both omnipotent and omniscient at the same time. If God is free, then God cannot be omniscient because He can't know the future. If God is not free, then He isn't omnipotent because his actions are predetermined. God cannot be both omnipotent and omniscient because He either is or is not free willed.

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And more can be found here... http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html

(fixed link)


[This message has been edited by NoJive (edited 06-25-2003).]

"Many atheists simply lack a belief in gods without having the belief that no gods exist."
Perhaps someone here can clarify this statement? If you don't believe in gods, is it not the same to believe no gods exist?

"The gnostic theist, usually simply called a theist, not only believes there is a god, but claims to know there is a god. This knowledge is usually obtained from some perceived evidence or revelation, such as a Bible filled with prophecies that are coming true with incredible accuracy today."
I just have problems with this... I can't think of any right now, although I admit I haven't really looked for any... Which brings me to this, if you are actively looking for something (in this sense), you'll find it. Similar to how horoscopes can be so accurate... They're incredibly vague and open to everyones interpretation.

"Summarizing: Agnosticism is not a third option to theism or atheism; it is a type of theist or atheist."
However, the overall point of that page is right.


And no matter how strongly you believe what you do, there is no faith like that of a Chicago Cubs fan

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"Many atheists simply lack a belief in gods without having the belief that no gods exist."

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I think they mean: "without having the knowledge that no gods exist"... As far as where that knowledge comes from, well, there are lots of religiously devoute people who "know" that gods exist, and can tell you exactly where that revelation occured in their lives. When this person is referring to "knowledge", they seem to be talking about certainty, rather than scientifically proven evidence. It's easier to say "knowledge", because the word "gnostic" means "to know".

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...agnosticism is dealing with knowledge and not belief, therefore being a separate school of thought, it is not a third option aside from theism and atheism. A person either has or does not have a belief in one or more gods. Accordingly, a person is either a theist or an atheist. Gnosticism and agnosticism are introduced when describing the theist or atheist. A theist or an atheist is either gnostic or agnostic. That is: either the theist or atheist knows there is or isn?t a god (gnostic) or he or she simply believes there is or does not believe there is (agnostic), while admitting that he or she does not know.

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Ok, so you can believe there are gods, but not know who or what they are - that would make you an "agnostic theist".
Then you could not believe in gods, but also not know it they exist, making you an "agnostic atheist".
Or, you could know gods exist, and also believe in them, making you a "gnostic theist".
Or (here comes the weird one), you could know that gods exist, but then not believe in them, making you a "gnostic atheist".

I'm thinking there aren't too many "gnostic atheists" in existence. I think it would be hard to reconcile the knowledge that gods exist, with a direct choice not to believe in them...

But it sure does clear up a lot...


Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 06-25-2003).]

OK, that's kinda what I thought, but just couldn't really make it fit somehow. The way they worded it though, disregards the rest of the page (If taken that way).

As for being a gnostic atheist...

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the theist or atheist knows there is or isn’t a god (gnostic)

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So as ammusing as the thought of someone who knows god/s exist but doesn't believe in them is... It doesn't quite work like that
'Gnostic,' in itself, does not imply specifically that you 'know god/s exist.' Simply that you 'know' something. In the case of a gnostic atheist, he knows god/s doesn't/don't exist.
So I'd be inclined to believe that the majority of atheists (who openly admit to being atheist) are gnostic atheists. Whereas anyone who doesn't necessarily believe in god/s but isn't outright atheist would be closer to an agnostic atheist.

I think I would be a combination of a gnostic atheist and a solipsist. However, I also believe nothing is impossible, so god/s could maybe exist, but I find it extremely unlikely.

solipsism: the theory that the self can be aware of nothing but its own experiences and states; the theory that nothing exists or is real but the self.

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 06-25-2003).]

Well, I sort of thought they were trying to draw to distinct a line there... but I think their point got made...

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In the case of a gnostic atheist, he knows god/s doesn't/don't exist.

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Yes. That makes much more sense...

Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 06-25-2003).]

i think,
therefore, i know.
i know that i know what i know (at least, i think i do)
i also know that i don't know what i don't know (again, at least, i think i do).
everything i think i know is, at it's best, questionable.
logic tells me, therefore;
everything i don't know (i think) is questionable.
ergo--everything is questionable.
therefore, i really don't know if i know what i know
or,
if i don't know what i don't know.
therefore i don't really know anything.

but i still think about ! (hehe)

...therefore, i know...if there is a GOD, he is unknowable...

~to the unknown GOD~

to which religeon are you refering this?

I'm not sure it matters which religion... but it sure is a masterpiece of twisted logic...
It'll take me a moment or 2 to work it out...





Cell 617

Deleted

[This message has been edited by Erised (edited 06-28-2003).]