Topic awaiting preservation: Women at Night: Safety vs. Issues

So less than a year ago, a young woman was murdered in my neighborhood in the middle of the night by a random mugger/rapist. She'd been walking back from getting a hamburger or something. Very isolated occurrence, never happened before, unlikely to happen again. Still, the fact remains.

What should my stance be on young women who leave my apartment alone at 3:00 am? My basic impulse is to see them safely to their cars if nobody else volunteers to; but of course people like to show a little independence, and they're not going to go out of their way to say "hey, Alan, why don't you walk me to my car?" especially since that sort of sounds like a pass. And by the same token, insisting on walking a girl to her car, even given the safety angle, sounds enough like a pass to generate resistance by itself, as I've noticed...

So what I'm asking is, what's the etiquette here? It seems completely wrong to have women walking around alone past midnight when I can prevent it; and since a mugger who would attack a lone girl probably wouldn't attack a lone girl accompanied by a fairly large young man, a simple claim of chauvinism doesn't apply.

Cell 1250 :: alanmacdougall.com :: Illustrator tips

This one touched a little close to home so I felt compelled to comment.

It's not chauvinistic or a pass to volunteer to walk a girl to her car. It's safety, piece of mind. Imagine if you didn't offer and the girl was the victim of muggers or worse, I guess it's a regret you will never be able to shake. As a girl I can say that I don't think all things a guy says is a pass. I would even think it was cute for someone to be concerned about my safety.

I would offer once... "It?s late, I'll walk you to your car" and if a girl feels independent enough she will decline. It helps your conscience if anything bad happens and gives the girl and opportunity to decline or accept.

You can't take back bad things from your life, but you can help prevent them

Cheers
BatGrrrL

I don't find it chauvinistic at all, and if offered in the right way you can avoid looking like you're making a pass.

Besides, a lone person is less likely to get mugged than two people in any case: man or woman. Criminal opportunists are exactly that, and two people walking present a far smaller target than a lone person. And you being a "large young man" [cough] would lessen the odds as well, hehe.

Even so, like BatGrrl said, once you've done all you can then it's pointless to dwell on what may happen.

I knew a girl a long time ago that was the the womens Kick boxing champion of Holland and was going for the European title too. She use to walk me home... and I was not offend at all. I used to hope we would get mugged or something. But seriously if you offer in a nice respectful and appropriate manner almost anyone would consider it an act of kindness for you to be so considerate of their safty.



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 07-22-2003).]

PT... my own personal rule of thumb is... is that if it's after dark, regardless of the time, i like to be seen to the door or...in this case... to the car. i don't think you're being at all chauvinistic...it's called manners!! even when we're having a chick night at my house, someone always walks whoever's leaving, out! (saftey in numbers)
in my experience, when i've been escorted to the car/door, the person doing the escorting never made it sound like it was an option. it was just stated "i'll walk you out" or something similar. i think it could sound like a pass if you ask to walk her out...so don't ask... Just Do It!

it's good to see that chivalry is still alive and kickin

__________________________
Cell 1007::

PT: I'm always doing this and have never had any objections from even the most feminist of my friends - I think the key is to make it seem less of an "I'll walk you to your car" than just the natural continuation of a chat that way no one feels awkward or they are put in a position where they feel they should decline to seem independent. Eventually people just adapt to it an it becomes natural.

Once when a friend and I were at the local taxi rank there I realised the girl behind us was on her own and there were some idiots behind her so I insisted that we drop her off before going on to our destination. A month or so later I bumped into a friends sister and (although it was in the opposite direction) I walked her over to the taxi rank and waited for one to turn. It turned out to be the same taxi driver and he was saying that I was some kind of knight who did this kind of thing a lot

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Two young girls I know were shopping at the mall in broad daylight here in Houston. When they got to their car, there was an old lady sitting in the back seat. They told her to move out, that maybe she didn't know she had got in the wrong car. The lady said she needed a ride and wouldn't get out. A mall security guy happened to be checking the young girls out and saw that there was a problem. When he pulled the lady out they saw it was a man. When the police searched him they found he had a knife on him. How scary for the girls.


When I hear about girls being killed, raped or abducted when they are out at nite alone, I think what were they doing out there that time of nite alone? I know some work at nite, but some don't take caution. They aren't asking for it, but they make it easier for the sick weridos to commit the crime.
No matter how safe women try to be, how can they defend themselves against a man. They don't have the muscle.

I say always walk the girl to the car even if she refuses to have you walk her. To me it could never be a feminist thing. Its a safety thing. Plus she can tell a lot about you by you insisting, meaning your a caring person. You know when we women say no, we really mean yes.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 07-22-2003).]

quote:

---

You know when we women say no, we really mean yes.

---

Please, jade, tell me you were being sarcastic with this comment...

This topic kind of touches a nerve with me too. Not because I know someone who got attacked, (for real I don't) but because of the fact that night time is my daytime. Since I got out of school I have worked night jobs, plus I am a natural night owl. I do much of my shopping and activities at night. It is the way I have always been. Usually though when it comes to it, if I am at work and am working late. I will ask one of my co-workers or my boss if I could walk out to my car with them. It is stupid not to, even though I usually carry some form of protection on me anyways. Still it is smarter to ask. It is not demeaning or making me less of a lady, it is just plain being smart. Also being aware of your surroundings before you leave too helps.

Jade: I am asking the same thing as Moon Dancer; Please tell me you are really being sarcastic, and I am NOT kidding about this. With me, no means NO! (Sorry to sound mean like that, but it is a serious issue with me.)

quote:

---

the person doing the escorting never made it sound like it was an option. it was just stated "i'll walk you out" or something similar

---

That works fine -- my problem comes when a girl just takes off before I have the chance to fall in step. But then, she "knew the risks..." Whatever. You do what you can. She's too naive to be cautious.

Cell 1250 :: alanmacdougall.com :: Illustrator tips

Ladies, I can see where "no meaning yes" could be misconstrued in my post. I was using it to mean how some women say one thing and mean other. Especially in romance involvements or in relationships.
I think a man honors a women when he assist her to her car. I think it is so polite. Its a shame that some feminist have men thinking they shouldn't.


Have you ever said no to a guy about something, (lets exclude sex) and really meant yes. For instance:

Honey, do you want Victorias Secret gift card for you birthday?
No. Please don't buy me anything this year. You spoil me.

Honey, what do you want for christmas?
Nothing. We can't afford big gifts this year.

Do you want me to walk you to your car?
No. I am not afraid of the dark. I will be OK.

Are you angry that I forgot Valentines day.
No. I know you didn't have time to buy me anything.

Did I say something to offend you because your giving me the cold treatment?
No. (Really she is mad from something he said 2 days B-4)

Gee Honey, your coughing a lot tonite, do you want me to get up from bed and get you a drink of water.
No. I don't want you to get up. I'll do it.

Just a few I could think of where the women really means yes.

PT....maybe if you explained to your female friends *why* you're doing it, they'll be more tolerant. i can't imagine any female throwing THAT much of a tiz over it! as for your chicks being too quick fo ya... well... i'll pass on commenting

jade: thank you for clearing that up. yes, some women tend to do that. it's quite silly i think.

quote:

---

Its a shame that some feminist have men thinking they shouldn't.

---

i can't believe i'm going to say this...but here goes... jade, i totally agree with that!

wow... all this agreeing with jade has made my head spin...i must go get some asprin

__________________________
Cell 1007::

I dont know if it happens anywhere else in the UK, but a few years ago when i was still living there and working as security (read bouncer) in some of the clubs (discos) bars etc, a scheme was set up after a few girls were murdered or raped after leaving such places as this.

The scheme was called club safe:

Essentially what happened was if a girl got separated from her friends, she could even if she had no money contact the security of the club/bar and they would get a taxi for her at the venues expense, the security would walk the girl to the taxi and put her inside, the driver was paid beforte the journey, and was told to wait untill the girl was saftely inside her home address. This scheme was voluntary for venues in Bristol where i was working, But it made our customers feel safer, knowing no matter what happened they knew that somome would ensure they got home safely.

As for me, i always offer to walk a girl to a car or taxi, i have even when walking out and seen a girl arguing with a guy and the girl is inobvious distress even if no physical force has been used gone over and asked if she is ok.

One thing that never fails to amaze me though about some women is this, when working in a club i have seen guys push slap/hit/use some kind of force against a girl (wife,girlfriend etc). Now i see red when this happens, so i 100% of the time remove the guy from the club for the following reasons.

1.the guy hit the girl
2.if he will hit a girl he wont think twice about starting on a guy.

ok so ya think the girl would be happy wouldnt ya??? well here is the part that amazes my: so wtf in about 50-60% of cases do they turn on the security team like we are the ones in the wrong, it makes me feel like saying, ok get the hell out of here aswell and if he beats the hell out of you outside its not my problem i saved you once i am not going to do it again. BUT. i would never do it.

back to the original scenario my personal view if guests are visiting you, male or female it is your responsibility to make sure they get to a car / taxi /bus safely, just be diplomatic.

you would be surprised that 99% of the time they will say yes , after all they have been in your presence for most of the evening, so they will feel safer with you walking them, or even just standing in the doorway if a taxi comes or their car is close by, that way you arenot infringing on their independance but still showing that you are worried about their safety.



[This message has been edited by tomeaglescz (edited 07-22-2003).]

tomeaglescz:

quote:

---

so wtf in about 50-60% of cases do they turn on the security team like we are the ones in the wrong

---

Because many women who are being abused will defend their man. They feel 'protected' by him, even though he hurts them. I know from personal experience. It is very difficult to break from a relationship like that.

[This message has been edited by Wolfen (edited 07-23-2003).]

quote:

---

You know when we women say no, we really mean yes.

---

your casual use of this phrase is appalling! you say you were thinking:

quote:

---

I can see where "no meaning yes" could be misconstrued in my post. I was using it to mean how some women say one thing and mean other. Especially in romance involvements or in relationships.

---

well jade, this particular conversation isn't about romance, but about *Safety* Also, men have been known to say one thing and mean another! (politicians for instance) imho, your brains have attached themselves to an offensive and faulty way of thinking.. get a grip on reality girl, we all know people tell white lies!

on topic: i have been escorted to my car many times and have never been offended by it.. if you find the girl/woman has exited before you can ask? call her by name to get her attention and then advise her you will walk her to her car. i've never been afraid to walk about at night, but i still appreciate the company

(edit- typos)

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 07-23-2003).]

jade- I just wanted to add that accepting the excuse that no means yes is also a very dangerous mindset - especially in a topic regarding the safety of women. I know now that you didn't mean it in the context of sexual encounters. The point is though, for that phrase to come from a woman only strengthens that belief in the less enlightened of the male side of our species.

PT - Even if a woman declines your offer to walk them out to the car, insist on a least seeing them to the door. As a host, you can let them know when they arrive: When you want to leave, just let me know and I'll walk you to your car. That way, it doesn't come across as a pass (though it baffles me why someone would think so).

To all: Just some safety tips I've learned that while they won't necessarily prevent an attack, they can at least reduce the chances of it...
1.Walk in numbers.
2. If you must walk alone, keep your head up, back straight and remain alert to your surroundings. This is contrary to the "victim" walk- head down, shoulders slouched and not looking around. Attackers look for easy targets - people they can surprise and overpower.
3.Keep in mind that items like pepper spray and mace, knives and guns can be turned against you. Make sure that for whatever protective equipment you choose to carry you receive training in how to best use it. It also does no good if it is expired or the mechanisms have not been maintained.
4.When walking to your vehicle, walk with the door key in hand and ready to insert: this reduces the time outside of your vehicle digging in your purse or pockets and not focusing on your surroundings.
5.While some places are certainly more dangerous than others, there is no such thing as a safe environment. It doesn't matter where you are, there are yucky people that do nasty things. So, not to make y'all paranoid - you don't want to live life in fear - but a little precaution never hurt anyone...

VR

Forgive me for getting off topic.

Well, I commend you for always being truthful and never beating around the bush.

Women do play games with the yes/no and can have men twirling around their little finger. I have seen women operate this way very many times. If you have never done that, then you are very rare.

But I want to know from some of you that have dabbled in psychology. What is it, that is in the male species to seek, conquer, dominate and in some men to hurt the female species.

quote:

---

What is it, that is in the male species to seek, conquer, dominate and in some men to hurt the female species.

---

Well, not to sound callous, but from an evolutionary standpoint (if you accept that explanation of things), you're more likely to reproduce with a woman if you have some way of controlling her. Obviously, we now answer to a higher code of conduct than simple survival and reproduction.

Cell 1250 :: alanmacdougall.com :: Illustrator tips

jade - your generalizations are unsupported in what i have experienced in life ..
i don't know who you know or how they conduct their lives, but i have met men who cater to their wives/girl friends whims, because they want her to be happy.

also, "women say no when they mean yes", has been a line men have used for ages when trying to seduce a woman.. moon dancer's comment explains clearly why i find your use of the phrase so appalling

quote:

---

jade- I just wanted to add that accepting the excuse that no means yes is also a very dangerous mindset - especially in a topic regarding the safety of women. I know now that you didn't mean it in the context of sexual encounters. The point is though, for that phrase to come from a woman only strengthens that belief in the less enlightened of the male side of our species.

---

for safety sake, whether it's an offer to have a gentleman walk you to your car, give you a ride home or whatever.. say no when you mean no and yes when you mean yes.


btw, i have told white lies. i prefer to get to the point, though i have beat around the bush when trying to avoid a topic/discussion/judgement/decision - but then, who hasn't?

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 07-26-2003).]