Topic awaiting preservation: Taking liberties (Page 1 of 3)

I watched a report on the BBC (News 24) called "Taking Liberties" which might have been part of a series and it covered a few aspects of who American's liberties have been eroded post-911.

They covered some nasty stuff with peaceful demonstrations against companies who had got contarcts to rebuild Iraq being broken up with wooden bullets (ouch) and motorbikes being driven into the crowd, etc.

The most disturbing thing in the report was about the 'No fly lists' which are lists of people who have their right to fly restricted. This one woman is on the list and has an S (for search) printed on her tickets and she is searched on all internal and external flights and her only crime appeared to be editting a newsletter campaigning against the war in Iraq. the biggest problem is that no one seems to know who is on the list, who controls the list (it is a 'joined up' effort between various agencies), how you get on or how you get off.

Some stuff:
www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12740&c=206
www.inthesetimes.com/issue/27/02/feature3.shtml
www.washingtonfreepress.org/63/challengeToGovernment.htm
www.progressive.org/webex/wxmc042702.html
www.epic.org/privacy/airtravel/foia/watchlist_foia_analysis.html

I suppose this is old news to some people here but it seems a scarey development. Thoughts?

[edit: oh and the demo that was broken up was this one (quote from the first link):

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the most violent police response in the nation to protests against the war in Iraq

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www.aclunc.org/pressrel/030626-oakland.html
www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/5578918.htm
www.web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510562003

The first picture here is of someone I saw in the report and the injury is as nasty as it looks - be warned):
http://idaho.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/1790.php

We stopped using wooden batons here a long time ago because they could cause injury very easily - I think we sill use rubber bullets which can also kill]

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

A lot of people in the world, (USA, UK, Middle East, oh just about all over) are now operating on a War Footing, and as part of that mind set, use the phrase, "by any means nessessary" literally. For both offence and defence, "if you aren't with us, you are against us" I am reminded of the McCarthy "Witch Hunts" of the 50's.
The world is in a sorry state Emps, I hope we can fix it.

::tao::

[This message has been edited by Taobaybee (edited 01-14-2004).]

Anti-globalisation activists have found out that there is a "watch list" being run by the Mexican government in the run up to the WTO meeting in Mexico - their response is quite amusing:
www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1033200,00.html

At the height of football hooliganism there were similar lists of known trouble makers that were shared between the polic of various nations and if these activists are trouble makers then fair enough but it isn't clear where or how these lists were drawn up either - I'd imagine the Mexican authorities would have had input from the US and further afield and so similar questions are rasied about freedom of speech, etc.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

this doesn't suprise me in the least and it's surely nothing new. governments across the world have been keeping such records for quite a long time.
i could be completely wrong here, but wasn't there the same sort of outrage over these types of lists during the vietnam war?
i'm very much on the fence with this whole "list" thing because i feel that the goverment should be keeping tabs on certain people.... though, i wouldn't want to end up on a list somewhere simply because i know someone who's demonstrated against something they felt strongly about.
though... just to let you all know...i'm keeping my own special "list" of inmates. BWAHAHAHAHAH

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Cell 1007::

Oh nooo

Lacuna: But people should have a right to peacefully protest against thing they think are wrong without being monitored and harsassed. Its one of our societies checks and balances against increasingly unaccountable politicians and businesses (in fact rather thn being called unpatriotic I think such things are very patriotic). I believe you Americans also have such a thing as freedom of speech.

When we had the football hooligan lists everyone knew about them, I believe they were fairly public (as they had to be) and were the result of serious violence where people were getting badly injured and killed. I'm sure it was 100% fair to some people who got caught in the net but at least they were a response to a threat not a response to people expressing their concerns.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

gosh Emps!.. going through your links... I'm speechles.. this is awful...

..hmm, maybe thats why some are afraid to really speak their minds in here...



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 09-02-2003).]

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i could be completely wrong here, but wasn't there the same sort of outrage over these types of lists during the vietnam war?

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yes, there was protest at the time, but access to the lists was never given. the federal bureau (fbi) kept extensive files on many people. years later, many people used the Freedom of Information Act to discover if they had a dossier on themselves and what it said. the down side was that, if no dossier existed for the person inquiring - one was started

peaceful protests turning violent in the SF bay area are well known. during the vietnam war when sec. of state Dulles visited SF, a large crowd gathered outside the hotel (atop nob hill) where he was staying. the police forced them to the sidewalks across the street and behind barracades. for some reason, the police decided to break up the protest and attacked the protesters with batons. those who didn't fall to the bludgening, ran for their lives down the street (California and ??- i forget the cross street). at the bottom of the hill (the streets run downhill from the top of nob hill) there were a plethora of paddy wagons and police ready to pound on them while they herded them into the wagons. few people escaped.

i met a fellow who stepped out of his apartment to get cigarettes and see what was happening with the protest. as he stepped out his door he saw people running and police chasing them with batons swinging. as he watched, he saw a woman fall and her male friend drop to cover her to protect her and take the pounding. within moments he, himself was a target for another policeman. he tried to get away, but ended up in a paddy wagon and jail...

i think the only reason the massive vietnam protest parade marches had no violence was because there were just too many people of many different ages. the variety of signs indicated everyone, from vietnam vets to WWII vets, were against the war.

the berkeley police overdid it a few years later when a bunch of anarchists (read students) tried to claim an abandoned piece of city land as a park by planting it with flowers and a lawn. there they used tear gas which permeated the area for blocks around and mace (which was said to be harmless, creating only a burning sensation in the eyes), which according to reports left one young man blind. so much tear gas was used to extricate the anarchists, that telegraph avenue was a fog all the way up to the university - 4 1/2 blocks away.

then of course, there was the raid on haight street where many people ran into the straight theatre and the police shot tear gas into the theatre to force people out...

it was an unquiet time

I'm more with Lacuna on this one. Emps you mentioned society's checks and balances. It reminds me that we are at war and because of that we have to balance civil liberties with security. I am not aware of any war we have ever fought where civil liberties have not be restricted more than at peace time.

I don't know where the line is crossed... probably no one does but I do know that it has hardly been crossed *yet*. Things could get far far worse than anything we've seen so far and I think this should only strengthen our resolve to continue the war against terror to remove the threat that has precipitated the restricted liberties in the first place.

I have mentioned before that our history has shown that after our wars we have always restored liberties that were curtailed during the fighting. That does not mean that it happens automatically, it just means that we as a society have valued our freedom enough to keep a close eye on it. I can only hope we haven't lost sight of that core value.



. . : slicePuzzle

Bugs: Thanks for the input (as always). I wasn't aware:

1. That the Constituion/amendements, etc. was condiitonal - you have the right to free speech unless we don't like what you are saying. What if they decided that such free availability of guns was a security risk (I can see how that arguement could be made)?

2. That we were at war. The UK and other countries (like Spain and the ETA) have had experience of terrorism but I don't think it has ever been defined as a war. That said (at least here) it hasn't stopped people's rights being infrigined and major injustices being done. The experience here is that you can't use any means you like to achieve your ends.

Of course rights and freedoms taken away can be given back but governments tend to be control freaks and rights taken away tend to be rather difficult to get back. As this situation is open ended, vaguely defined and I can't see anyway that it can be brought to a clean resolution anytime soon (in fact what we are doing just seems to be making matters worse) governments could clearly justify restricting people's freedoms almost indefinitely (or at least for decade and pos. our lifetime).

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

1. Freedom of speech is not, and has never been, absolute in this country. There have always been restrictions on the right to free speech and to my knowledge have always been curtailed during times of war.

2. Even if you don't consider this a war, then you certainly have to acknowledge it is a time of increased danger and hostility with entities intent on the direct attack on the citizens of this country. I have maintained since 9/11 that we are in a state of war, whether it be officially declared or not. That is my position and I've been consistent in that.

I do share your concern about erosion of civil liberties. I just think we have a different tolerance and/or appreciation for what is necessary to fight terrorism. I have always felt your country was far more restrictive of speech than anything we have here in the US. I had always understood that your government openly censored your airwaves on a regular basis

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The experience here is that you can't use any means you like to achieve your ends.

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I don't accept for a second that is the position of this government. They have bent over backwards to keep judicial oversight in this process. As far as the lists go, you point out that has been common practice for years. But as far as the other intrusions on our civil liberties there is still a proces in place for the vetting of surveillance.

I recall that you were pretty appauled at my lack of outrage about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners. I remember that very clearly and I think about it often. I will admit to you honestly that I am struggling with these things. I do not have an absolute understanding or position on them precisely because I can see both sides of this issue. I believe that "free societies" such as ours will always struggle with the balance between civil liberties versus the safety of its citizens.

What I don't want to happen here, though, is for us to become *comfortable* with Islamist terror. I hope you are not asking us to do that. I almost thought I heard you suggest that we "just get used to it" because it will always be with us. I cannot accept that or I would never have supported the attack on the Taliban and Iraq. I believe this entire effort is focused on defeating Islamist terror. One thing I can guarantee you I will oppose dogmatically is the appeasement of these groups.

quote:

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...but governments tend to be control freaks and rights taken away tend to be rather difficult to get back...

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I know that! That is why I pointed out my shared concern but also that we have been through this several times before in our history and they have been given back. That proves that so far we have a good record on this issue. I am simply trying to show that it is not a given that these recent measures will be permanent.

Let me just finish this post by pointing out that I appreciate *fully* your pointing out these things and I applaud you doing so. We need people to criticize these moves and to speak out against them because that is part of our system. We must have both sides pushing for competing ideas so we can better find the proper medium. But since you took the role of one of the sides, I felt it necessary to mention the other. If you feel there is only one side to this and there is no balance to be struck, then I will have to respectfully disagree.

. . : slicePuzzle

Bugs:

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I don't accept for a second that is the position of this government. They have bent over backwards to keep judicial oversight in this process.

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I'm glad you mentioned Guantanamo Bay immediately after this as it has an important bearing on this. I can't claim to be an expert on US law but the US administration has broken international law on this and continues to hold unspecified numbers of US citizens (and others from other countries including a couple of Britons - who, interestingly, might get sent back here for trial) without representation and trial.

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I almost thought I heard you suggest that we "just get used to it" because it will always be with us.

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I applaud your rhetorical flourish there and appreciate you were looking for a platform to make a number of relevant statements but I should clarify that I don't hold anything lie that viewpoint. The closest I would get is that (at least from experience of ) you should be prepared accept that this situation has no clear end game (unlike an actual war) - the way the problem is currently being addressed by the US and allies is:

1. Taking away your freedoms

2. While only making matters worse.

Beheading the hydra and rattling a stick in a nest of vipers is only going to make matters worse as is treating this like a war.

quote:

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Let me just finish this post by pointing out that I appreciate *fully* your pointing out these things and I applaud you doing so. We need people to criticize these moves and to speak out against them because that is part of our system. We must have both sides pushing for competing ideas so we can better find the proper medium.

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While you may appreciate such things I'm afraid that members of the administration seems to consider such things unpatriotic and liable to get people into trouble with no way of rectifying the situation.

Equally I appreciate that security services require a certain degree of freedom to investigate potential dangers to one's country. Unfortunately (time and again) they take that ball and run with it (here this included the running of death squads and a shoot to kill policy amongst other things). It is only be questioning policy and shining a light into the drak corners that they can be held accountable but it is clear that things don't cut both ways.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

How can we win against Islamist terror? I personally don't see how treating this as anything but a war will work. The attacks on the UN only bolster my belief in this. It proves to me that Islamist terrorists are not interested in negotiation, accomodation, or compromise. Because the UN clearly represents that approach when it comes to this issue. The Islamist terrorists have a very clearly stated agenda and it is geared toward one and only one goal -- their dominance of everyone and the removal of anything we could remotely consider freedom. They view this as the will of God and the bringing of peace to all peoples through submission and surrender to God's will and God's unchanging holy law.

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2. While only making matters worse.

Beheading the hydra and rattling a stick in a nest of vipers is only going to make matters worse as is treating this like a war.

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I would say that if you acknowledge the existence of the nest of vipers then we had better do something about it before it multiplies and becomes such a force we really won't be able to oppose it without massive loss of life and liberty.

You may yet be proven right that this course of action will only make things worse. It is clearly working thus far however. But when UBL unleashes his massive bio attack on us here and I'm still around to type, perhaps I'll see it your way. Or perhaps I'll still have my head up my anus wanting to strike back hard and fast. The problem is that I only have history to go on and only time to verify the current course we find ourselves on.


I believe our extremely different views of this administration are based completely on our respective beliefs about their motivations. Neither of us can possibly know their motivations for certain. This difference boils down to almost a difference of opinion as personal and relative as our views on religion. Here we have a specific action being taken that I see as understandable and expected and you see it as totally out of bounds. I'm not really sure there is anything we can say to change our opinions so I will be content in sharing my thoughts on it as you originally requested us to do.

I did not mean to put words in your mouth in my previous post. I know I have done that to you before. I am sorry for when I do that but sometimes the things you say just leave me so flabergasted that I can see no other interpretation. I will try to keep my replies more in the form of questions for clarification of your position in future... it's just that I lapse from time to time. I know that I am lumped in with several views I don't always agree with because of my affiliations... it's par for the course I suppose.

I realized that you mentioned the way crowd control is conducted here. I didn't really address that because I see it as a separate issue. There is always a need for crowd control for *any* type of demonstration that has the potential to get out of hand. This crosses idealogical boundaries and so I don't believe there is any connection between the methods used and the issue being protested. Lawful and peaceful denomstrations, of which there are hundreds, do not require violent methods of crowd control. Those kind of protests happen here all the time without incident.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 09-03-2003).]

[edit]damn, am I slow, my whole post was obsolete by the time I wrote it[/edit]

[This message has been edited by MW (edited 09-03-2003).]

That has happened to me more than a few times too.

Bugs:

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The attacks on the UN only bolster my belief in this. It proves to me that Islamist terrorists are not interested in negotiation, accomodation, or compromise.

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And this is part of the misconception - Saddam was never in league with UBL although the 'premptive' attacks on Iraq (which are increasingly looking groundless) may have pushed certain factions into bed. The attacks were either orchestrated by Saddam loyalists or by Islamic factions now allting themselves with those factions. These attacks have included strikes against Islamic groups who opposed Saddam such as the recent killing of hundreds of Shia (including an important cleric).

I may have used such terms as nests of vipers but things are far more diffuse and less clear cut than this (hence the reason there can't be a clean cut solution). This is exactly what UBL wanted - what was once the driving force behind a small and extreme Islamic organisation has been transformed (with the help of the US administration) into an 'us against them' confrontation. All the US is doing is proving that they are the Great Satan who is out to destroy Islam. It is perfectly possible for us to get along with most of the Islamic world we just need to separate the extreme elements from the moderate clerics but GW Bush is currently Al Qaeda's best recruiting agent -whether this is due to a neo-Imperialist agenda or whether he is doing this because he genuinely believes it it is the best for the American people is largely irrelevant when viewed from this perspective.

In Northern Ireland (and it seems in Palestine) the only way towards peace was to try and stop the tit-for-tat violence which only served to harden the attitude of the majority of people on either side. Once underlying problems could be addressed the majority of people don't want this constant rolling violence and the extreme minority become increasingly isolated and irrelevant. I'm not sure if that approach can work in this case but attacking Iraq has solved nothing and is far more likely to have driven young Moslems towards the more extreme elements of their faith. I'd be interested to hear what you think the answer might be because at the moment the US is fighting things on a totally different level to the enemy - they are trying to conqueror land but the enemy is far too nebulous to be nailed down in such a manner.

[edit as has been said before this sin't a fight for land but one for hearts and minds and while the US treats it as an 'old style' war then they are loosing that battle]

And I'm sure you've had far more people misinterpret your viewpoint than vice versa (technically you weren't you were just using a device to steer things in the direction you wanted to comment on which seems valid enough to me)

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I've been awfully lax in my postings of late (had a funeral to go to, my family is getting smaller every year ), but I thought I might add my two cents here real quick.

There has always been, and always will be lists of people and their "assessed threat level". I, of all people, have an FBI file. I was searched last time I crossed the border into the US from Canada. They tell me it's a random search. It might be, but I suspect the file has something to do with it. Doesn't bother me though. I'm a law abiding citizen. I haven't given them any reason not to trust me. I see it as a form of being cautious. That wasn't an awful thing last time I heard about it. How many things do parents do to ward their children from danger that are considered "overly strict" by other parents and definitely unfair by the kids? I've used this example before. The governemnt is in place, in part, to take care of it's citizens. It has to be strict sometimes, especially when some of it's own get out of line. When things calm down, so do the strictures.

Another point I would liek to make is that, peaceful or not, demonstration at some point need to be disbanded. People have this impression that, o long as they aren't hurting anybody, they have the right to be there. They don't. It's called loitering. Go ahead and protest, that's fine. But when you are told by legal officials to disband, do it. If you don't they become authorized to use more forcefull means to get you to disband. If you still resist their authorized level of force increases again. It increases until they are granted the right to arrest you for 'peacefully protesting' at which point someone in the crowd has a conniption about their rights being violated and start fighting. Now I didn't read all of the articles but I'm assuming that the cops didn't arrive at the scene, get out of their cars, and start beating the tar out of people. I imagine that they were there for a while first. Long enough for their authorization to act to escalate to the point that is being presented to you.

Also... these tactics are used in all mob/protest situations, not just anti-war protests.

Interesting article on similar themes to my last post above:
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1034488,00.html

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Ahem... not to be particularily offensive but, the topic of the article above... may well be the intent. If we're attracting them to Iraq, they aren't coming to the US or Britain. Also, if they are flocking to Iraq, we then know where the hotbed is and we already have a large military presence there. what better way to lure your enemy into a trap then with "easy" bait. The horrow of it is that several hundred deaths in Iraq may well be saving millions of lives in New York or L.A. or Chicago. We know they are there, we know we are losing lives, but we also know that we're saving them here at home.

A slow trickle may well be painful, but it is nothing compared to having a hole blown in your aorta such as a chemical/biological attack would be like.

GD: That would be true if there was a finite number of 'terrorists' but there isn't - it might just be inspiring disaffected youth in Palestinian camps or Saudi fundamentalists to cross the border to have a crack at the Great Satan. Perhaps if they see how easy it is to kill Americans it might inspire them to sign up with Al Qaeda to take the Jihad to American soil again.

He who sows the whirlwind.............

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

It would be interesting to know how many 'terrorists' have been made since the beginning of the war in Iraq. As it goes right now. No one has a clue. It is assumed that their numbers are exploding.

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it might just be inspiring disaffected youth in Palestinian camps or Saudi fundamentalists to cross the border to have a crack at the Great Satan. Perhaps if they see how easy it is to kill Americans it might inspire them to sign up with Al Qaeda to take the Jihad to American soil again.

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That's my point. How many of these people were already there just waiting around? A live firecracker with a long fuse. We are ferreting them out now instead of later when they decide they need to do something while we are in a state of unpreparedness. Yes we are amking more terrorists. Easy to see. We are also killing, capturing, and luring terrorists to Iraq where we can deal with them safely (from a selfish point of view). Do the numbers balance out? I don't know. If we kill, capture, and deter more than we make... we're doing well in our fight against terrorists. We are stirring up pretty much every sleeper cell in every country that has ever held hatred against the US and/or Britain. Can you think of a better way to find all of these terrorists? They have tapped themselves and now we just have to follow the ripples.

GD: Put there must be a section of these people who would have quite happily have got on with their lives and never been provoked into becoming a terrorist.

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I imagine there are. I still don't find that a convincing arguement without any idea as to how many wouldn't have become terrorists without our presence in Iraq. Truth is, they may well have been coerced by 'recruiters' eventually anyway because of their known sympathetic views towards "the movement" (I'm sure they don't call themselves terrorists). I just don't know. I'm sure that there are some people that have been turned that wouldn't have been before. There have been people turned against us in every conflict we've been in, and in our own country no less. I don't find it shocking that people elsewhere in the world feel the same way as some people here do. The only difference being (contrary to popular belief) US citizens aren't prone to violent representations of their distaste. You can view it as being a pansy assed bastard if you like. What's our other choice? Be the war mongering society everyone thinks we are?

GD:

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What's our other choice? Be the war mongering society everyone thinks we are?

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I think thats the problem not the cure

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

~vital blood vessel in a key location within Bugs' cranium explodes~

My point exactly. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Everyone seems to want us to back off. Okay, we do that. Then what? Everyone bitches because we left. So they 'make' us do it, and 'make' us do it their way. Eventually it gets to the point of, "Why the hell don't you do it yourselves?"

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~vital blood vessel in a key location within Bugs' cranium explodes~

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~ticks off another item on today's to do list~

~wanders off to antagonise DG~

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

For those wondering why our troops are in Iraq (and just so I can watch Bugs' head go pop):
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1036571,00.html

[edit: And these topics have been touched on many times here before - just search for PNAC or Wolfowitz.

Its also worth noting that Meacher was a senior minister in the UK goverment until this year]

[edit2: Its looks like this has provoked a bit of a diplomatic incident - more nes as things evolve ]

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Further discussion of why invading Iraq would make us actually unsafer:
www.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13822,1040476,00.html

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Tony Blair was warned on the eve of war by his intelligence chiefs that an invasion of Iraq would increase the danger of terrorist attacks, which they considered by far the greatest threat to western interests.

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and:

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Yesterday's report discloses that in February this year, a month before the invasion of Iraq, Whitehall's joint intelligence committee (JIC) warned that "al-Qaida and associated groups continued to represent by far the greatest threat to western interests, and that threat would be heightened by military action against Iraq".

The intelligence chiefs added: "Any collapse of the Iraqi regime would increase the risk of chemical and biological warfare technology or agents finding their way into the hands of terrorists, including al-Qaida."

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

And just to show that it isn't just lily-livered lefty Europeans like myself that have concerns here is a letter from an American soldier serving in Iraq:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1045297,00.html

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

The situation in Baghdad:
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16759

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Here the criminal is king. Saddam emptied the prisons and the United States disbanded the police, while 60 percent of people are unemployed. As a result, carjacking, robbery, looting, and murder are rife. Marauding men in "misery gangs" kidnap and rape women and girls at will. Some of these victims are dumped back on the streets only to be executed by their "disgraced" male relatives in what are called "honor killings."

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Three carjackers took a vehicle in midday. In response, the crowd on the streets started throwing stones while shopkeepers started firing AK-47s. Before long the crowd had dragged one of the carjackers out onto the street and started beating him. "They were jumping on his head and his chest. I don't think he made it," explains Birmingham in a deadpan Dublin brogue.

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Officially there are, on average, 13 attacks on Coalition Forces in Baghdad every day. Since May 1, when the war "ended," more than 404 U.S. soldiers have been permanently removed from action due to wounds, while more than 60 have been killed.

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Even journalists are getting killed. A Reuters photographer, Mazen Dana, was recently taken out by U.S. troops. Before that, a young British freelancer named Richard Wild was murdered by an assassin who probably thought his victim was a solider. Three GIs had died the same way: at close range, in the neck, from behind, with a pistol.

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A young woman, through a translator, explains the details of her work. She sells herself to American soldiers for $15 a session. She's seventeen, wants to go to college and leave Iraq.

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Smoke is rising from Karrada Street, an electronics district popular with U.S. troops. An American humvee has just pulled up on the median and been blown to pieces by a remote activated mine.

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The GIs next to us among the refrigerators seem neither scared nor brave, just weary and numb. They are no longer driving the situation but rather riding it. And from this vantage point, crouching among the smashed merchandise and empty shell casings, one can feel the war taking on its own momentum.

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[This message has been edited by MW (edited 09-20-2003).]

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030923_556.html

Operation Iraqi Freedom of press:

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In Baghdad on Monday, the U.S.-picked Governing Council voted to evict two Arab satellite broadcasting companies from Iraq, said Iraqi National Congress spokesman Entifadh K. Qanbar. The Qatar-based Al-Jazeera and Dubai-based Al-Arabiya have given blanket coverage of events in Iraq, often highly critical of the U.S.-led occupation.

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How to make friends with the local population:

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A U.S. aircraft fired six missiles into a farm north of Fallujah on Tuesday, killing three men and wounding three others, police and villagers said. The U.S. military said its forces were pursuing guerrillas who attacked soldiers and that it knew of only one person killed.

Two young boys were among the wounded in the attack, and their father and two neighbors were killed, witnesses and neighbors said.

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An intensive six-month search of Iraq for weapons of mass destruction has failed to discover a single trace of an illegal arsenal, according to accounts of a report circulating in Washington and London.

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A BBC report yesterday said that the survey group, which includes British and Australian investigators, had come across no banned weapons, or delivery systems, or laboratories involved in developing such weapons.

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And the report is:

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compiled by the CIA-led Iraq Survey Group (ISG) of 1,400 weapons experts and support staff

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1049153,00.html

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

WMDs and Freedom of Press elesewhere in the middle east:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,995987,00.html

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Ariel Sharon has barred the BBC from his meeting with the British press during a visit to London next week amid accusations that the corporation made false allegations against Israel in a report on weapons of mass destruction.

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A preview focused on Mordechai Vanunu, a former technician at Dimona, who has spent 17 years in jail after the Israelis kidnapped him from Italy because he revealed secrets about the Israeli nuclear programme to the Sunday Times.

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"There are international precedents to decisions of that type," said the Israeli newspaper, Maariv. "Events of that nature used to happen in Albania and East Germany. Then in Iran and Afghanistan. Once again, Israel finds itself in good company."

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[This message has been edited by MW (edited 10-01-2003).]

Big article on Michael Moore:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/michaelmoore/story/0,13947,1055591,00.html

and an extract from his new book "Dude, where's my country?":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/michaelmoore/story/0,13947,1055594,00.html

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"Since 9/11, the Bush administration has used that tragic event as a justification to rip up our constitution and our civil liberties. And I honestly believe that one or two 9/11s, and martial law will be declared in our country and we're inching towards a police state." He admits "it's not happening tomorrow", but some well-placed suicide bombs or terrorist attacks, he believes, could change everything. "At that point, you will find millions of Americans clamouring for martial law. I'm not talking about a takeover by Bush and his people. They won't have to fire a shot. The American people will be so freaked out they will demand that the White House take action, round up anyone and everyone. That's what I fear. It won't happen with a bang but with the whimpering sound of a frightened nation."

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They also don't let Moore off the hook and the article points out potential inaccurcaies and it has some interesting things to say about the left wing view of things:

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The line between paternalism and idealism on the left is a thin one. On the one side lies the belief that the left knows best. At its root is the notion of false consciousness, meaning that those who act in a certain way do so because they are unable to perceive the objective nature and source of their oppression. On the other side is the hope that we can build a better world if people look beyond their individual interests to the collective good. At its root is the evangelical notion that a better world is possible if people would only have the confidence to fight for it.

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The Guardian even have a Michael Moore section:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/michaelmoore/

I have to say I usually find Moore's technicques crude and his scattergun approach tends to stop him digging down to deeper underlying problems but I suppose there is room for different approaches and possibly the important thing is that he has become very popular with that approach and so it has raised important questions and has, in some ways, sidestepped tradition media outlets so he can now present his message directly to the people (and there is no point moaning that the people are being misinformed if you don't make an attempt to get the message out).

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

And another extract - questions for Dubya on various things inclduing his connection with the Bin Ladens, etc.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/michaelmoore/story/0,13947,1056922,00.html

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Another extract from Moore's book:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/michaelmoore/story/0,13947,1057354,00.html

and an article on the abuses of the Patriot Act:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/story/0,3605,1057338,00.html

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither," wrote Benjamin Franklin in 1759. Unfortunately, in the aftermath of September 11 2001, his words seem to have been forgotten by America's legislators.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Emps, I cannot say enough good things about Michael Moore.

Wait a second scratch the word "enough" from previous sentence. I refuse to take him seriously until he is prepared to defend his positions. When he is asked about the inaccuracies of his material, he says it's just entertainment yet he expects people to still treat it like the truth. He simply cannot have it both ways.

Larry Elder also features a Michael Moore section on his web site. I want Moore to prove that he can back up his positions by going on a few programs that will ask him some tough questions. He can do this anytime by visiting Larry Elder on his radio program as I understand there is an open invitation.
http://www.larryelder.com/ Take a look at the "Michael Moore, Where are you?" bit.


On the Iraq issue. I understand we are going to be treated to some positive propoganda from the Bush administration very soon. Condaleeza Rice has embarked on a campaign to show us the positive side of this effort. You know I agree with much of it so I will try not to upset too many by saying so.

I must also stand up and say that the 5 months are up. I had told Jestah that I wasn't going to accept any criticism of not finding WMD until the 5 months we gave the UN to find them was up. Just before the war the cries were heard for more time. But time was up and we went in. I do not think many are there. I'm sure there are a few but certainly not stockpiles.

I specifically stated 5 months ago that I would have supported the war regardless of the existence of stockpiles of WMD and that has not changed. The amount of progress that has been made is astounding to me and I think time will show that this move went a long way towards freeing up a people from a brutal regime in the middle of a part of the world that knows little else.

By the way, that vein that burst in my brain a few posts up somehow healed up and I'm ready to blow another

. . : slicePuzzle

Here are some very interesting excerpts about motivations we spoke of before by vein burst.

In an article titled "Why Do Arabs Hate the West, Especially the U.S.," Zuheir Abdallah, columnist for the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat, blames Arab fascism and Islamism for failing to achieve any accomplishments for the Arab world since 1948, leading to its backwardness today. The following are excerpts from the article:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP55103

Info about actual progress: Iraq: Moving Forward Despite Violence

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Violence and terrorism in post-war Iraq, while a legitimate subject for the press, often overshadows the progress made in the region.

...the paper concluded that a majority of Iraqis are pessimistic about the conditions in the short term, but optimistic about the long-term situation.

The Iraqi press publishes uncontrolled and uncensored. The Iraqis, who are avid newspaper readers, can choose from among more than 100 dailies and weeklies which cover subjects from Islamic fundamentalism to Kurdish nationalism.

The editorial added: "the Iraqi citizen has begun to feel that the security situation has taken a powerful step forward when the Iraqi police force began to play a more noticeable role than before. The citizen is feeling that police presence close to him will assist him when assistance is needed?" [13] In the words of a shopkeeper who sells television sets and refrigerators: "Things have really changed since the end of July. In July we saw three or four robberies and killings a day. I don't think I've seen one since July."

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The paper goes on to say that many Iraqis believed "that the Americans would start new projects for the reconstruction of Iraq after the end of the war? It is painful to realize that all these projects are ink on paper and were granted to bankrupt American companies to revive the American, not the Iraqi economy."

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On this last quote I say we shouldn't disappoint them! I hear criticism of commercial interests there but I think we should be encouraging it and continue the rebuilding process with no holds barred.

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-09-2003).]

Bugs: Glad to hear you have recovered

I tend to agree with you about Michael Moore - he paints in very crude brushstrokes. I'd be more critical of him but I fear I'd be accussed of being elitsit

I bought my dad his book las Xmas but he said that, although he probably agrees with a lot of the points he just couldn't read it - the tone was far too angry.

On this:

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I must also stand up and say that the 5 months are up. I had told Jestah that I wasn't going to accept any criticism of not finding WMD until the 5 months we gave the UN to find them was up. Just before the war the cries were heard for more time. But time was up and we went in. I do not think many are there. I'm sure there are a few but certainly not stockpiles.

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and......... Does the lack of WMD after 5 months make you reconsider the justness of the War?

Interesting article and the Moslem world although i don't think you can extract the problem form its historical context like that and the oppression of the Palestinians, etc. has to be a factor.

That said they do have to shoulder some of the responsibilities themselves - people are turning to fundamentalist Islamic doctrines because of poverty and oppression and redistributing the oil weatlh and greater democracy would help massively - can it be any coincidence that Bin Laden did a lot of his recruiting fown the west coast of Saudi Arabia? I would imagine the difference in income levels there must be the widest in the Middle East.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org