Topic awaiting preservation: Taking liberties (Page 3 of 3)

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All empires work according to the rules of practical advantage, rather than those of kindness and moral decency.

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DING DING DING DING DING!!! Now that has been stipulated please to be continuing the analysis of the situation. I don't mean to be flippant but this is something I've been trying to emphasize for a long time now. Our governments are first and foremost concerned with self preservation and in the grand scheme of things ensure that order trumps chaos. It is up to the individuals of each country, and ultimately the planet, to be moral and kind. This does not mean that governments never do good things, it just means that is not their primary reason for existence.

Bugs: Ooooooooooooo it nearly feels like we are on the same page

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It is up to the individuals of each country, and ultimately the planet, to be moral and kind.

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Exactly and to act as a brake to what would otherwise be increasingly amoral administrations - its what democracy is all about

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Pos. a little clarification is in order

I've never said the US administration shouldn't try and get away with this kind of thing (if I was in the administration then I'd probably be pushing for a much harder line and I'd have plans for the next few decades which will make what has happened so far look like a tea party) what I have said is that we (me but probably not you Bugs ):

1. Shouldn't let them get away with it without pointing it out.

2. Shouldn't let them attach the thin veneer of moarlity to what they are doing.

If I was a US citizen I would probably appreciate what is being done not just for me but for my children (although I am unsure about my children's children as I'm unsur the policy is sustainable) my main quibble is that whoever is in power would probably be beholden to the oil firms (Dubya's allegiances are just more blatant than most) which would stop them from exploring alternative solutions to the looming energy crisis.

George Monbiot (in the above article) says our only way out isn't just a major change in our energy generation but in our usage which would require a major restructuring of our lifestyles. I'm afraid that we might have to change our lifestyles (we non-Americans unless Tony B's deal involves saving us when excrement hits the air conditioning) but only so that the American way of life can be supported for a few more years

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I don't think taking advice from the Israelis is the best idea (and running operations in other, hostile, countries only serves to escalate the situation):

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Israeli advisers are helping train US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations in Iraq, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders, US intelligence and military sources said yesterday.

The Israeli Defence Force (IDF) has sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and according to two sources, Israeli military "consultants" have also visited Iraq.

US forces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops.

But the secret war in Iraq is about to get much tougher, in the hope of suppressing the Ba'athist-led insurgency ahead of next November's presidential elections.

US special forces teams are already behind the lines inside Syria attempting to kill foreign jihadists before they cross the border, and a group focused on the "neutralisation" of guerrilla leaders is being set up, according to sources familiar with the operations.

"This is basically an assassination programme. That is what is being conceptualised here. This is a hunter-killer team," said a former senior US intelligence official, who added that he feared the new tactics and enhanced cooperation with Israel would only inflame a volatile situation in the Middle East.

........

One of the planners behind the offensive is a highly controversial figure, whose role is likely to inflame Muslim opinion: Lieutenant General William "Jerry" Boykin.

In October, there were calls for his resignation after he told a church congregation in Oregon that the US was at war with Satan, who "wants to destroy us as a Christian army".

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1102940,00.html

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Winning hearts and minds in Iraq:

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In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings [thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.

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Soldiers began encasing the town in razor wire.

The next day, an American jet dropped a 500-bomb on the house that had been used to attack them. The Americans arrested eight sheiks, the mayor, the police chief and most members of the city council. "We really hammered the place," Maj. Darron Wright said.

Two and a half weeks later, the town of Abu Hishma is enclosed in a barbed-wire fence that stretches for five miles. Men ages 18 to 65 have been ordered to get identification cards. There is only way into the town and one way out.

"This fence is here for your protection," reads the sign posted in front of the barbed-wire fence. "Do not approach or try to cross, or you will be shot."

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"With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects, I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them," Colonel Sassaman said.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/07/international/middleeast/07TACT.html?ex=1071378000&en=b9c5e965e018edf1&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

From the same article:

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"You have to understand the Arab mind," Capt. Todd Brown, a company commander with the Fourth Infantry Division, said as he stood outside the gates of Abu Hishma. "The only thing they understand is force ? force, pride and saving face."

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If that is the quality of people out there no wonder it is all falling apart.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

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An American who has advised the civilian authority in Baghdad said, ?The only way we can win is to go unconventional. We?re going to have to play their game. Guerrilla versus guerrilla. Terrorism versus terrorism. We?ve got to scare the Iraqis into submission.?

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?It?s not the way we usually play ball, but if you see a couple of your guys get blown away it changes things. We did the American things?and we?ve been the nice guy. Now we?re going to be the bad guy, and being the bad guy works.?

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Rumsfeld repeatedly criticized Air Force General Charles Holland, a four-star Special Forces commander who has just retired, for his reluctance to authorize commando raids without specific, or ?actionable,? intelligence.

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http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/031215fa_fact

Another gem from that article:

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Boykin postponed his retirement, which had been planned for June, and took the Pentagon job, which brought him a third star. In that post, the Pentagon adviser told me, Boykin has been ?an important piece? of the planned escalation. In October, the Los Angeles Times reported that Boykin, while giving Sunday-morning talks in uniform to church groups, had repeatedly equated the Muslim world with Satan. Last June, according to the paper, he told a congregation in Oregon that ?Satan wants to destroy this nation, he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army.? Boykin praised President Bush as a ?man who prays in the Oval Office,? and declared that Bush was ?not elected? President but ?appointed by God.? The Muslim world hates America, he said, ?because we are a nation of believers.?

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Well...he certainly got the part about how Bush wasn't elected president correct, although I think the 'appointed by God' part was a bit off...more like 'appointed by his daddy and his daddy's cronies on the supreme court bench' (always makes me think of pizza that name does...mmmmmm....pizza...*drools*)

and this one:

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The Muslim world hates America, he said, ?because we are a nation of believers.?

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Uhh...ok...this man does realise that 'Muslim' is the name of a follower of a religion, and a follower of a religion, by definition, is a believer. So, therefore, by calling them the 'Muslim World' and us 'a nation of believers' you're saying that you are but one nation in a whole world of believers, and that somehow makes you more right than them?

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 12-09-2003).]

Well this is certainly taking liberties!!

Fruitcakes are now being banned from airports:
www.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/2003/12/09/281975-cp.html

Before the inmates panic about not being allowed to fly ever again they are actually talking about the food stuff (which is ideal for concealing weapons - those prison films were right all along).

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Fruitcakes (the food) should be outlawed, period.

I'm mean really - we Brits are already a laughstock around the world is there anyway to make us look sillier?? Yes there is:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1112467,00.html

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

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O n December 13, when U.S. forces captured Saddam Hussein, President George W. Bush not only celebrated with his national security team, but also pulled out his pen and signed into law a bill that grants the FBI sweeping new powers.

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http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10705756&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id=482778&rfi=6

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

quote:

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Fruitcakes (the food) should be outlawed, period.

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I wholeheartedly agree. Those things are bioterrorism at its worst.

Fingerprinting and photographing foreign visitors:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3367893.stm

what next?

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

DNA scanners!

Perhaps done with lasers, secretly. Now where to put 'em...

...

Supermarkets?

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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

a giant impregnable wall around the country.

foreigner-sniffing gaurd dogs.

oooooo.....could we have a moat between us and canada? that would be cool....

DL: Interesting idea - I was thinking we might eventually want to wall in the US and I'm glad some of you are already in favour of this (it will make it so much easier).

More fun:

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When President Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up "free speech zones" or "protest zones," where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event.

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full story:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

And more:

Torture is bad (unless we get someone else to do it for us):
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MET1.DTL

It should also be a lesson to Canadians!!

And after getting rid of the secret police in Iraq we are pumping billions into starting a new one:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/04/wirq04.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/01/04/ixnewstop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=116465

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

The dollar hit an all time low against the Euro (and just about any other major currency) yesterday:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3371689.stm

and Dubya is running up debts like a shopaholic but how to deal with it?:
www.commondreams.org/views04/0105-08.htm

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

You know, it's all this that makes me glad that I'm leaving the US after I graduate from college.

Ha ha ah... I started out with some quotes but it ended up being too much... I would laugh but it is kinda scary. But then again the only people who have to worry about this are the fringe elements that dont think right ...0.o...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL

[edit]
Wait A Minute here, Articles about Freedom of speech zones, Out of country torturings, Secret police fundings? What exactly are you trying to say?


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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 01-08-2004).]

The 400 person team that was sent to look for WMD (Hans Blix-stylee) has been quietly withdrawn:
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1073280874955&p=1012571727102

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

quote:

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"We worry about what may have happened to those weapons," Stuart Cohen, the vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council, said in an interview broadcast late Tuesday on the ABC News program "Nightline." "Theories abound as to what may have happened."

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Weren't huge convoys seen leaving Iraq right before the "Shock and Awe"?


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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Heh..."we worry about what may have happened to those weapons"...yeah, if I were in his shoes I'd be damn worried about the world finding out we bullshitted them too!

It appears Bush was planning on invading Iraq days after getting into office and long before 911:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=8&u=/ap/20040110/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/bush_o_neill_7

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Emps, that would really not surprise me. As I've been saying, Iraq has been needing resolution for a while now.

. . : slicePuzzle

A Paul O'neil quote I heard the other day described dubya as 'a blind man in a room full of deaf people.' I think that book might be a very good read.

This bit came my way....

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Make sure you're rich, white and respectful
by Glenn Walton
January 7, 2004


I've crossed many borders in my life: I've been held up for 12 hours at the
Bulgarian-Turkish border while my travelling companions, home-coming Turks,
negotiated the size of the bribe to be paid to the border officials; I've
had
my car inspected at Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin by suspicious East German
police; and once, when I'd lost my passport and had to go to Germany from
Italy to get it replaced, I drove around Switzerland because that
non-European Community member would have required the missing document,
whereas member state Austria didn't.


But the border I've crossed the most is the American one, usually by car
between St. Stephen, New Brunswick and Calais, Maine, on my way to visit my
sister in Boston. Normally it's a quick drive-through - a couple of
questions
about destination and duration of stay, and you're off. Over the holidays,
however, our travelling companion, a friend from Italy, was called into the
customs building for questioning and then, for good measure, we too were
subjected to the drill.


It wasn't pretty.


No one, of course, minds security measures meant to root out terrorists, and
it's good to see border officials taking the task seriously. But the
questioning we were put through crossed its own lines: we were badgered,
patronized, treated like disobedient children - and long after it had to be
apparent to everyone that we weren't terrorists and had nothing to hide.
After an hour of this unnecessary treatment we left the building humiliated
and angry and cursing George W. Bush, who presided over the whole ritual in
the form of a huge grinning photograph.


It was particularly disturbing that the guy who went after us did so with
gusto, even glee, obviously enjoying his job. He clearly got off on our
helplessness, and expected absolute obsequiousness. Realizing that any hint
of amusement or anger is enough to trigger an arbitrary and dismissive
judgment, I'm pretty good at stifling my feelings, so after a series of
questions, one of which loonily concerned my "status" as a child living in
Washington D.C. in the 1960s, I was patronizingly pronounced "a nice
person."
But our friend from Italy, her hackles up, made the mistake of asking if the
questioning would take long, and, branded rude and disrespectful, was
whisked
off into another room for interrogation.


While she was out of our sight, another woman, already on the verge of
tears,
was separated from her bus tour companions, led out, and badgered for all to
hear about being unemployed.


"Who do you think you are, going on vacation when you don't have a job? Why
should we let you into our country?" etc, etc. She reappeared crying, was
given a final talking-to, then allowed to get back on the waiting bus, but
I'm sure her vacation to the land of the free, home of the brave, was
irrevocably coloured by her humiliation at the border.


What was so unsettling about the whole experience was the realization that
as
a white professional with no criminal record, I got off easily. But what of
people, not terrorists, but of another race and class, without the verbal
skills to defend themselves against this sort of arbitrary but official
abuse? They're sitting ducks for the kind of sadist now apparently being
given free rein all over the world. From Iraq to Guantanamo to Calais,
Maine,
Bush's bullies are detaining and interrogating in the name of homeland
security, and people less lucky than myself have been held in military
prisons on mere suspicions, without trial, without recourse.


Something unpleasant and dark has been let out of the bag by post-9-11
hysteria, and it won't be going back in for the foreseeable future.


Fortunately a U.S. court recently informed the White House that detention
without trial is unconstitutional, and it will be interesting to see how
that
case makes it way through the courts.


In the meantime, be forewarned: they're waiting for you at the border. Make
sure you're rich and white and respectful, just the way the president wants
you to be. But be prepared to be treated like a disobedient five-year old
anyway.


Glenn Walton is a filmmaker and writer in Halifax. This column appeared in
The
Daily News on January 2, 2004.

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I still think Ben Franklin got it right. =)

'Those who would sacrifice liberties for security deserve neither.'

So what today:

The US will compile a database on all air passengers and colour code them according to threat level - well at least its in the open now as opposed to the secret no fly lists.

Brutalising Reuters reporters in Iraq

and on a lighter note:

The US have started bombing the UK

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

A former senior Bush aide has said there were no WMDs and we knew:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13811183_method=full_siteid=89488_headline=-SADDAM-THREAT--A-LIE--SAYS-US-CHIEF-name_page.html

A report from the US Army's War College says that invading Iraq has set back The War Against Terror:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/01/13/1073877805513.html

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I respect David Hackworth's opinion and he shares the concern that Iraq is a dangerous detour. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30032

I still think it is a very good long term effort. We can't simply attack the symptom of terrorism if we want to eliminate it, or at least seriously decrease it. The countries that are literally breeding the next generation of terrorists have to be stopped if we're ever going to reduce this terrible threat. I don't see how that can happen without fundamental reform within these countries.

From the second link you have there:

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He said the United States should be prepared to settle for stability rather than democracy in Iraq, and international rather than US responsibility for the country.

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I am glad there is debate about taking down Hussein but I am disappointed in the "settling" attitude of this remark. If democracy fails in Iraq, we can always fall back to the lesser goals.

Regarding Paul O-Neill http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36586

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He also says there was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction before the attack. I wonder where he gets such an assessment? The CIA believed they were there. British intelligence believed they were there. Again, the previous administration believed they were there. Saddam Hussein had all but announced he had them.

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It seems O'Neill was dabbling in foreign policy as well as economic matters while serving as treasury secretary. He now says the planning for the invasion of Iraq was under way long before Sept. 11, 2001.

Of that I have no doubts. Planning for the invasion of Iraq was done in the two previous administrations and was taking place as late as 1998 while President C*****n was still in office. Should it surprise anyone that contingency plans were being made to deal with this long-standing international threat? It would surprise me if they weren't.

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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Yup, just reference my second to last post... um after this one it will be the third to last

Bugs: From your quote:

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The CIA believed they were there. British intelligence believed they were there.

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Did they? I seem to recall that both intelligence services had real reservations about the defintive statements the respective leaders were making based on some pretty shakey (or unsubstantiated) intelligence. The Hutton Inquiry is looking into aspects of this 'sexing up' of the 'Dodgy Dossier' and there are calls for a full inquiry into this specific aspect of the problem.

A better couple of sentences would be:

Bush believed they were there. Tony Blair believed they were there.

Or they wnated to believe.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

And a slur on my 'good' name:
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1151&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040114%2F161051078.htm&sc=1151

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Well, yes, I thought they did think so. I assumed that was why C*****n felt the same way about Iraq... because he was being told this by intelligence sources. In fact, C*****n has not contradicted much of what the war was based on even still. This tells me that since he was privy to all this intelligence that he probably knows how he may have reacted after 9/11.

HA!!! That last article is preeecious. I bet you never realized you and Dubya were so similar, eh? LOL!!! But, yeah, I am fully aware at how much someone like Dubya is disliked in Europe. He represents so much of what a typical European would despise. I think Reagan had similar qualities. I think it is far more about style, however, than anything else. I don't remember C*****n being treated similarly by Europe even though he acted unilaterally in Bosnia. It's because C*****n's sensibilities were far more in line with European ideals. Simple as that.

Oh, and a bit more damage control about the rogue O'Neill: http://nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow-higgins200401140842.asp

. . : slicePuzzle

This is a very interesting article about how the insurgency in Iraq is evolving based on the shifting financial realities: http://nationalreview.com/comment/dillon-parham200401150820.asp

[edit]
This is very scary if true: Sources: Terrorists Planning Iraq Attack http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108371,00.html
I heard a follow up to this last night by a retired Army general on foxnews who said this story was being treated very seriously and steps were being taken to see if this threat really exists.
[/edit]

[Emp edit: ~sneaks in and gooses Bugs~

Discussion continued here:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/001108.html ]


[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 01-16-2004).]