Topic awaiting preservation: You do NOT know your fate! (Page 1 of 2)

Alright... It's been a while since I've posted anything relevant so I figure with these scrambled thoughts in my head I may be able to jot them down into a meaningful thread.

First of all, it's a known paradox that no one knows their fate. None. Anyone who says they know where they are going when they die is blindly lying.

One of the many things I despise arguing with Christians about is fate, because at some point in the conversation one of them dramatically states "Oh I'm going to heaven, I know." NO YOU DON'T KNOW. You think you know. I mean, I respect peoples' choice to believe in what they want, but this is too ignorant... Christians can think all they want that they're going to heaven, that's fine, but when they say that they know, when it's proven that they don't know, and they still continue to banter, I get pissed.

And it's not even that it's a known paradox either, Christians believe that the only justifiable judge in the known universe is their God. So why the fuck would they be speaking for him on his terms if they believe that it's his choice? Wouldn't that be hypocrisy? Wouldn't that contradict what they believe? And then, after that little dramatic statement I'll usually say something back with a sigh in my voice like "Ugh, Yea... See you don't really know anything about after life. You're welcome to think that you are, but saying that you know is a blatant contradiction on your behalf." Well, you might think that would open their minds a little bit, but.... Then we get into "No, I know. I spoke to god, and he told me."

Whoa, now that's some deep shit, I draw the line there and just end the conversation. But back to the topic.. It's impossible to predetermine your fate. Any Christian that says they know they're going to heaven is speaking for God and if I were the God I don't believe in I would get off my cloud and bitch slap them for telling me what I'm going to do.

I hope that this little chat can advise some insight throughout other members Christian and Non-Christian.


_____________________
Prying open my third eye.

sorry to say you're an incoherent troll on your best day man.

Jason

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I were the God I don't believe in I would get off my cloud and bitch slap them for telling me what I'm going to do.

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LOL... that's good InSiDeR. Not to mention of course that knowledge of the future, precognition/premonition/forsight is considered witchcraft and is punishable by death according to Christian law, old Christian law mind you, but people still bring it up concerning me. Funny how that only works one way.

We're all going to die, that's fate enough for me

I believe the bible has some pretty clear rules about who is going to heaven and who isn't so if someone truly believes they've met the conditions, what's the problem with them saying (and 100% believing) "I'm going to heaven?" Absolute statements like that don't bother me because they don't affect me in any way. If Joe Christian thinks he's going to heaven, it's no skin off my nose. No use arguing about something that doesn't affect anyone else.


Amerasu

Who said fate exist in first place? I dont believe in fate.
If there is free will, how can fate exist then?


well insider, there is something I kinda believe in, self fulfiling prophecy
Of course I don't mean it has to do anything with supernatural, instead rather natural.

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If Joe Christian thinks he's going to heaven, it's no skin off my nose.

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What was that word you used in there? "Thinks?" Ah, completely different story than "Knowing."

Ruski, let me rephrase it without using the word fate, if it makes it more clear. No one knows what happens to them when they die. You can only know what happens to your body, but the soul/mind/spirit is something that no one can explain, and when someone says they know for a fact that their soul/mind/spirit is going to heaven, they be lyin' like a dog, yo.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-11-2003).]

InSiDeR: I don't beleive in fate, and yet, I K-N-O-W that I'm going to heaven. I beleive that I have full control over every single action of mine and that those actions determine my future, like heaven.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 10-11-2003).]

^ HAHAHAHA....


Insider I gotta agree with yo on this one.

Heaven in bible is described as if you have won a lottery, gold, diamonds, all full of jewels....everything is made out of them, read the revelation if you want.


Eternal Bliss huh?

very fun, I wonder what we gonna do up there? will we even have a mind? our body is dead, we will no longer function, no longer think, no longer breath, no longer live.

A soul without a body is empty, its missing its other half......a plant will not grow without soil...

what a soul to do without a body?

edit:

I always thaugh heaven is when you die in a peaceful way....when you die without worries, without doubt, when you can just finnally rest in peace! YAY thats a heaven for me



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-11-2003).]

Insider, its important to realize you don't know what others know. It might seem silly to you that I converse with my God daily but you do NOT know its untrue. Rather then creating threads about what you think Christians do not know, why not address what you don't know? It will probably be more beneficial to your growth.

Jestah

ruski, it amazes me that you can actually become more condescending day by day.

i'm with JK on this one

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Jestah, this is true. I do not know what others know per se. However, I do know, as does anyone else, that fate/afterlife is not predeterminable. That is pretty much what I'm basing this thread on (and I wish you wouldn't lump me in with Ruski, fig), so if some of you thought I was targeting Christians with insults, well I didn't try to do that.

As for CFB, that is exactly what I'm talking about.

Insider, by no means do you (or anyone else) KNOW fate & afterlife is not predeterminable. It's an opinion that you hold. I'm also not sure which group I lumped you into.



Jestah

Well of course I don't. And I'm not the one claiming I do. Throughout human history that has been a question unanswerable to man. Providing humans with a comfort such as a rewarding after life, like Heaven, is an answer given to man by man. No man knows fate. I'm clearly stating that when Christians, and sometimes not Christians, state they know (like our bible boy CFB) they're speaking out of turn for what they cannot explain. He's speaking out of faith, not fact.

Bible is just a literature IMO, just like Illiad....nothing special nor personal, simple story written with metaphor

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Well of course I don't.

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But you just said you knew: However, I do know, as does anyone else, that fate/afterlife is not predeterminable.

As for the rest of your post you don't know what Cfb or I know. We very well could have had a conversation with God about the afterlife and you'd have no clue. It might seem unlikely for you but you will never know for sure.

Jestah

neither will you

Hey Jestah, that wasn't God, it was a dog's voice...did he tell how many people you should kill?

ruski or whose it
you better watch out
you better not cry
you better not pout
i'm tellin' you why
cause you don't know
who's around the corner
ready to take you "out"
God told me so
and i know
that you don't know
but i know
and the shadow knows
bwaahahahah!!!

InSiDeR: My reality includes my personal theological beleifs. According to those beliefs, If I (1) Love God, and (2) Love People and (3) "Accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior." Now, fate has to do with:

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The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.

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this.

So, according to the dictionary definition of fate, no, I don't beleive in fate, because I beleive that my actions determine what will happen to me. Therefor, I am in control of my after life.

(PS: I really, really resent that Bible Boy comment. I in NO way consider my self to be a Bible thumpin' Christian)

What I don't understand, Insider, is that you claim to be a diehard Atheist, yet it's clear that you're infatuated with God.

I don't see why you can't let people believe in what they want and leave it at that...



[This message has been edited by synax (edited 10-13-2003).]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't consider myself a diehard atheist. I sort of opened my mind a little more.

By all means, I'm not going to stop people from believing in what they want. That's their choice and I respect it gracefully, but it's that little comment that sparked this thread that just irritates me so much. I guess that's a drawback of not believing a supreme being per se, but I really don't see a problem with letting people believe in what they want as long as it's not hurting anyone. I hope that I'm not coming off as, well, how you described me. That's now how I want to come off at all.

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I sort of opened my mind a little more.

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So, InSiDeR: You've opened your mind a little bit more to what? It looks like here that your just attacking Christians in general over something that has little backing and is obviously, if the definition of 'fate' is looked up, and if you knew anything about the subject, is false.

So, would you seriously consider looking into become a Christian, or, if that's not your thing, how about a Bhuddist, or...umm, you could take it down a notch and become a Solopsist. Or something.

I've opened my mind to explore more with my mind, like the moral values of Buddhism, which is something I'll bet you've never considered. But then again I wouldn't know, so feel free to correct me. And I certainly don't consider this an attack thread.

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but it's that little comment that sparked this thread that just irritates me so much.

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Insider, what I still find most interesting is you've done the exact same thing that irritated you so much - yet you don't seem to realize it.


Jestah

Tell me what that is again?

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Tell me what that is again?

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Insider, what irritates you is a Christians tone of certainty toward their fate. It is your opinion that they do not know for certain their fate. It is not fact. It's possible this person could have had a conversation with God and he laied out his master plan.

What irritates me is your constant accusations of what Christians do and do not know. What gives you all of this insight while still a teenager? Your contradictions also bug me but I try not to draw on such petty things.




Jestah

To know what happen after we die is impossible. It's a known paradox.

No Insider, thats your personal opinion. Just because you haven't spoken to Bruce Willis doesn't mean I haven't.

Jestah

*sigh* nevermind..

InSiDeR, I prefer to say that I cling God's promise that I will go to heaven. Do I know for absolute certain? No, but I trust that He will keep His word. My faith is founded upon the truth of what Jesus told his apostles when he was here. Since I believe he backed up his teachings with raising from the dead, I also believe that he will follow through with his promises to us. It's as simple as that.

But when other Xians tell you that they know they're going to heaven, I bet some are thinking of this verse:

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I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. --1 John 5:13

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John was in a position to know (read be pretty damn sure!) that Christ was the real deal. If John, in fact, saw Christ raised from the dead, then I can appreciate the certainty in his writings to us.

. . : slicePuzzle

What does Bruce Willis has to do anything with afterlife?

I dont see Insider as if he attacked someone here, he simply stated his opinion on disagreement with religious way of thinking about afterlife....
cbf, no need to get offended....

and I think you must yourself clearly understand that bible is not a manual.

When it says in Bible that you must cut your hand off if you commit sin, or kill a homosexual person if he makes love to man, or that heaven is made out of gold and jewels, people tell me that its all symbolic....then why does ressurection of christ , punishment and reward from god, afterlife and such has to be taken any differently?

I mean...who decides all that???


edit: ohh and Bugs, I think John didnt know how to write in first place since he was a fisherman...correct me if I am wrong.

he might have told alot of things...especially at that time when people believed in all the supernatural stuff....I think his words and stories were passed on to different people until someone started taking notes....remember its all his oppinion, having faith in God and person who claims to speak for God is totally different matters.


[not sure] BTW I found out that birth of Christ was not in December at all, since it describes that sheeps were bread or something like that(has to do something with darn sheeps) said to be spring.
And that december 25th is actually somekind of Jewish holyday where people give presents to each other.[/not sure]


[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-15-2003).]

Ruski: Regarding the December thing, yup. And we also worship on Sunday (or so I've heard) because the Roman Catholic Church, when it was going around destroying everyone that wouldn't conform to them, hit the Germans, and said: Ok, so you get Sunday, because thats the day that you worship the Sun god, but, now it becomes OUR day! Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Ruski, Bruce Willis could be anyone. Because Insider hasn't had a conversation with God he assumes no one has. Although he doesn't believe in a God, he can't say with any certainty that He doesn't exist. Without this certainty he can't make claims that God hasn't conversed with people and told them about their future. Of course that hasn't stopped him yet.

I don't consider Insiders actions to be attacking either. He clearly takes issue with Christianity although I believe that will clear up with maturety. He comes off as seeking personal approvement. In that search I'd just like to point out he seems to be doing exactly what irritates him and unwilling to admit this. If he is truly seeking this improvement and willing to open his mind to other things he might want to start looking at his own actions. It will be more meaningful then those of Christians.

Jestah

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Because Insider hasn't had a conversation with God he assumes no one has.

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For the love of god I'm not going to repeat myself again after this, that is NOT what I'm saying Jestah. Please point out to me where I said or somehow could have been interpreted as saying "I've never had a convo with god, therefore you haven't either."

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he can't say with any certainty that He doesn't exist. Without this certainty he can't make claims that God hasn't conversed with people and told them about their future. Of course that hasn't stopped him yet.

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I never claimed anything... I stated, out of pure fact, that it is impossible to determine, what happens to our mind and soul (assuming the possibility of a soul) after death. I never said anywhere that poeple don't have conversations with their God(s), at all. I never said anywhere that people can't have conversations with their God(s), at all. As a matter of fact I find that to be completely irrelevant to the topic and would appriciate if you go back and reread my first post, please.

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I mean...who decides all that???

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We do

Ruski, in order to make good decisions it is important to have a good set of facts to work with. I think there are a good number of things we could all come to much more agreement on if we were all aware of more facts about the Bible and the context in which it was written.

But I understand that we are all very busy and it's not the sort of thing most people are going to take the time to do. There are plenty of topics that I just don't have time to delve into, but I think this one is very important for everyone to consider because it deals with such important things about how we live our lives and, if you believe it, where we will spend eternity. I think it is well worth the time spent to understand better.

Oh yeah, it is very unlikely that Jesus was born on December 25. CFB, we have been worshipping on the first day of the week almost from the beginning. You will recall that Christ rose on Sunday and the early Xians gathered on that day in honor of that. I had never heard the German thing but matching Xian days to the converted people's special days was definitely practiced.

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For the love of god I'm not going to repeat myself again after this, that is NOT what I'm saying Jestah. Please point out to me where I said or somehow could have been interpreted as saying "I've never had a convo with god, therefore you haven't either."

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I'll stand corrected then. What reason do you give for thinking its crazy to talk with God?

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I never claimed anything... I stated, out of pure fact, that it is impossible to determine, what happens to our mind and soul (assuming the possibility of a soul) after death.

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Its very difficult to discuss this with you because you constantly point to your own opinions as fact. You can't prove that this is impossible. At best you can say you don't know. You don't know what others know and you can't be certain what the future holds.

Jestah

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in order to make good decisions it is important to have a good set of facts to work with

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but Bugs, how do we know if they are facts or tales, or myths...
I mean, sure Noahs age is a Myth, but why should we take afterlife and ressurection as a fact?

I personally think eternal life is ridiculus. No offence here, but thats just me.
It seems like people are so unhappy with their life and they relize that they don't have enaugh time to enjoy it cause they always work, work, work(thats why I chose to become an artist )...they turn into faith that they will have fun for whole eternity if they fallow certain preachings.

After all this were Jews who came up with Promised Lnad stuff...they where slaves for centuries, they needed some kind of hope to survive...

How do you even know that the Bible is true? I mean, can you *prove* that it wasn't just some bored guy who wrote it? Can you provide solid fact that Jesus existed? Can you prove anything that comes from the Bible?

[Edit: If none of that makes sense or sounds ridiculous, then blame my ignorance. I haven't ever read a single word from the Bible.]



[This message has been edited by synax (edited 10-15-2003).]

By looking at the original scrolls, it's evident that the Bible was written over a LONG period of time, I think 2,000 years, be MANY diffrent authors. Jesus, at least the historical Jesus, can be proved to have existed. I think that some people found, well, ok, lots of people have found archaeological stuff that says he's real, but recently they found a tablet, or something, about Pilot and Jesus. For your third question/statement: Lots of the Bible is merely historical stuff, geneologies, facts about wars etcetera, which can all be proved.

I can see where InSiDeR is coming from. Just as his statement is a matter of belief, so is the statement that someone KNOWS what is going to happen. That doesn't make either of those statements true. The defense that you've had a 'conversation' with GOD seems a little presumptuous IMO. I mean conversation like, you talk, HE talks, you talk, HE talks. A phone call... you know. I think it's safe to assume that that doesn't happen. If it did I think there would be far more believers. You can't introduce HIM to me. It is your interpretation of things around you that lead you to believe he answers. Your faith predisposes you to see things that others don't see. To interpret things differently than others do. Just like within this thread. InSiDeR brought up an interesting issue which people took as an attack. I didn't take offense to it. Bug's doesn't seem to have. He answered quite constructively and politely. Maybe discussion would be more productive than a digital equivelant of being argumentative.

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Its very difficult to discuss this with you because you constantly point to your own opinions as fact. You can't prove that this is impossible. At best you can say you don't know. You don't know what others know and you can't be certain what the future holds.

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Of course, if we go by this logic, then it does indeed follow that you don't know that insider doesn't in fact know that you don't know what your fate will be.

Maybe he does actually know that you don't know. Maybe he knows because god told him.... Who knows? I don't know....

=)