Topic awaiting preservation: September 11th and the Bush Administration: (Page 2 of 3)

Skaarjj: There is footage from the first plane hitting WTC. It was shot by a person working on a documentary of a fire station for the NYFD who heard the sound and just happened to train his camera up to see it.

Yep there was a French documentary team filming firemen fiddling with stuff in the street and they turned around and followed the first plane in on their camera. They then went with the firemen into the WTC and filmed the rescue attemts as it happened and up close. Their footage was shown in a documentary here a year ago - I still have it on video tape somewhere (probably).

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Interesting, I didn't realize there was a French team involved in the conspiracy.

Bugs: I suspect I shouldn't be saying this but all long the French have.........

What was that noise?

Who are you? No please not the

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Who are you? No please not the...

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... tentacle porn?

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Is this thing on?

A Work In Progress

~stabs UC~

Please..... not again....

I am quite concerned that I have warped UnknownComic's tiny mind - I apologies to his family and friends (if he is like this online then I'd imagine offline might be similar. Although one suggestion try not to mention it too much in public - there is one barmaid in my local who thinks I'm a weirdo, technciall they all might but......).

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

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those "probably" sound like he's not really sure,

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*gasp*

How dare he!?

He should be making it out as if he knew *exactly* what happened and shoving it down our throats as absolute fact!

After all, there is always only one possibile series of events for any given situation...

http://www.the-emperor.org/blog/entry/78/

Well, you are the authority on it... I just figured it was the french that assaulted you with it, and then you in turn inflicted it on suho... and now my morbid curiosity has cause me to inappropriately reference it in several places.

Maybe the Asylum is a brainwashing cult...

They lure you in with nifty graphics and html tutorials. Then, introduce abhorrent behaviours and once you start getting ostracized by offline society all that is left is the dementia of the Asylum and continuing the downward spiral is all there is left. Each layer unfolds a deeper flaw which ostracizes the individual even more from polite society. Ending with a dependency on the Asylum...

hmmm, perhaps I should go now... You are all bad people!

[edit] Of course I'll save the bookmark just to look at the pretty pictures. That will be safe.[/edit]

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Is this thing on?

A Work In Progress

[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 12-05-2003).]

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I just figured it was the french that assaulted you with it, and then you in turn inflicted it on suho...

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Yes, that is exactly what happened! Now can we please stop talking about this? The memories are just too traumatic.


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Suho: www.liminality.org

Yep its always the French!!

~shakes fist in general direction of France~

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

And I would suggest the conspiracy-minded amongst us look here:
www.lennonmurdertruth.com
www.davidicke.com



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Emps

The Emperor dot org

oh my

now there's some thought provoking stuff!

=)

lol whatever.

I think I got it straight now. DL (and maybe some others) works for the gov't and his job is to falsify every conspiracy-related thread. hehe

No, no, you've got it all wrong. None of us actually worl for the government, but some of us are the results of a top-secret government project to replace human brains with small, tasty squid. You can sometimes spot a tentacle sticking out of the noses of these test subjects (and here you thought they were just boogers).

Anyway, the experiment is the first step in an evil plan to take over the world. I think Emps might now more about that.


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Suho: www.liminality.org

asptamer: I think what DL and a number of us are objecting to is not conspiracy theories per se (I know I'm rather partial to them) but the credulous acceptance of them when the facts are unclear or even (in some cases) disproved.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

Exactly.

The website in question is a perfect example, as is the other 9/11 pentagon site that I posted above.

There are a lot of questions.

It's great to ask those questions, but you need to be a little selective about which questions are actually valid questions, and which ones are just plain stupid.

You have to use a little logic in determining that perhaps the people who are saying that the "plane must have done this, then this, then this" don't actually know what they are talking about, and don't actually understand the physics involved, or the different possible courses of action that the plane could ahve actually taken, etc.

However, taking those questions and turning them into explanations of why there is a government conspiracy is totally asinine - especially when pretty much all of those questions have valid answers that nullify this being a big coverup.

Does that obsolve the government of any wrong doing? No.

It just means that jackasses like the guys who made those sights are expending far too much energy attacking the wrong things, and they help foster the complacence they complain about so much.

okay, fair enough.

but now Im curious... would u (Emps or DL) mind giving an example of a Consp. Theory u do find credible?

okay, fair enough.

but now Im curious... would u (Emps or DL) mind giving an example of a Consp. Theory u do find credible?

asptamer: By their very definition a Conspiracy Theory can't be credible or it becomes a debatable fact.

I'll have a think about conspiracies that are credible.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

At just first hack my mind thinks of the plot to kill Hitler by his staff. That was a real conspiracy against his leadership. Does that count?

ehh not really... I mean what makes it differnt from 9/11 or moonhoax? the only difference that comes to mind is that yours is is 60 years old. Something a bit more up to day would be more interesting.

asptamer:

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the only difference that comes to mind is that yours is is 60 years old.

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Urmmmmmmmmm also there are facts rather than conjecture and extrapolation.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I guess I was trying to think of a situation where there truly was a conspiracy going on and if people had theorized about it at the time, they would have been correct or at least on the right track.

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Something a bit more up to day would be more interesting.

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If you want something that is still a conspiracy theory as of now, that's difficult because you usually can only verify it afterwards - if there was convincing evidence for something it would be a conspiracy (without the "theory" part), if not, it's not very convincing.

How about the Iran-Contra deal? I bet the first person to publicly suggest this was actually happening was considered a nutcase back then...

I have been meaning to read all of this, but sorry been kind-a busy.

Anyway, in case anyone is curious. I happen to know a few people who were involved in the pent@gon crash, with the clean-up and what-not, and there was definatly a plane. It definatly crashed into the pentagon (after bouncing once), and many people witnessed it and many others died.

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Urmmmmmmmmm also there are facts rather than conjecture and extrapolation.

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not sure what ure trying to say... facts can be false (in case u didnt know)

MW is right tho... cant know for sure until the documents become available to the public... and that is 30 years after it happened? or something of that sort...
but I dont think everything goes into archives.

what about Philadelphia project? is that nonesense or theres truth behind it?

ACK! Now I am scared. Satan has come and we are all doomed! http://www.geocities.com/trebor_92627/Bush.htm

Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have gone looking for conspiracies. Now I am frightened and I cant sleep at night. What can I do?

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Is this thing on?

A Work In Progress

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what about Philadelphia project? is that nonesense or theres truth behind it?

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I googled it, and what I found sounded like such uttter bullshit that I felt like repeatedly slapping people who believe in it with a bluewhale stuffed with physics books.

following quotes from: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/philadelphia.html

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The Navy admits that the U.S.S. Eldridge took part in an experiment that involved wrapping wire around the hull of the destroyer in an attempt to cancel out the magnetic fields of the metal on the ship. This is known as degaussing. This would render the ship "invisible" to underwater magnetic mines that rely on proximity sensors to trigger the detonation.

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This quite plausible explanation is of course discarded as a possible coverup.

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Some scientists have developed the theory that the Navy was working on a way to make the ship invisible to vision. [...] This theory suggests that the Eldridge was equipped with high frequency generators that would heat up the surrounding air to cause a mirage, making the vessel invisible.

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Yeah, why not? We have all heard of how mirages are created by layers of air of different temperature. right? But I think there are some better-researched ways of heating up air than using "high frequency generators"... But there's still more:

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The most interesting theory about the Philadelphia Experiment is that the destroyer did in fact disappear and was teleported across space and time. [...]
The theory is that light has to be bent around the ship to make it invisible. To accomplish this, the Navy wrapped the ship's circumference in wire and passed a measured current through it. This caused a huge oscillating magnet to form a magnetic field around the ship, not only bending the light, but space and time as well. The physics of the experiment are reminiscent of Einstein's Unified Field Theory that once you bend light, you are also unwittingly bending space and time as well.

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Actually the theory of relativity says that bending light can (only!) be accomplished by bending spacetime, and that a deformation of spacetime is equivalent to gravity, which can (only!) be caused by mass or energy - and the amount of mass or energy (which are equivalent) required to bend light areound a ship would be so large that it would probably create a black hole, if compressed to an area smaller than our earth. So, you might ask - wouldn't that make it even more likely the ship did travel through space and time, because who knows what happens with black holes and stuff...? NO!!! Because this astronomical amount of energy or mass could not have been created by man. period.


What really pisses me off about this site is that they also present information about the Echelon project, which is real (officially admitted by the US and other involved governments) and concerned with monitoring most, if not all global electronic communications. Someone who is not well informed could discard this quite real project as yet another totally idiotic conspiracy theory defying common sense and high-school knowldge, just because it is mentioned on the same website.

[This message has been edited by MW (edited 12-10-2003).]

Im not arguing for it nor against it, but what MW said reminds me of

"I dont know how they did it therefore they couldn't have done it" from one of the links around here, I think the moon hoax...

Yes indeed the relationship between high freequency gerenators and bending space and time is anything but "common sense," but is everything that happens in science "common sense"? If I wanted to stir this discussion in yet another direction, I'd ask u "is there such thing as 'common sense' at all?"

bottom line: if nothing similar was in ur physics book it doesnt mean that it is impossible.

once again, im not arguing for it's credibility, just trying to get some MORE SENSIBLE opinions.

[edit] oh and that bush thing... when he got 'elected' some dude wrote an article of similar (although I havent read it, I'd guess it wasnt as nonsensical as the site mentioned) content in our univ. newspaper, and then some other dudes came and took him away, some speculated it was secret service.. who knows, but go figure : )





[This message has been edited by asptamer (edited 12-10-2003).]

The Philadelphia Experiment never happened (as far as it is possible to tell). No of the facts match up to the story and it appears to be a complete invention - great tale though.

See e.g.:
http://www.unmuseum.com/philex.htm

[edit: If you want more background to this then try and dig out a copy of the Fortean Times issue128 (November 1999) where they deal with the whole issue.

Basically the story emerged in letters someone wrote to an author of UFO books.

The veterans (and most people who have looked into it) consider it a work of pure fantasy. The bulk of the story appeared in the book "Thin Air" by R. Burger and Neil Simpson and is clearly flagged as a work of fiction. However, when the big blockbuster "The Philadelphia Experiment: Project Invisibility", by William Moore and Charles Berlitz, was published it quote from this book without acknowledging it - they laughed a;; the way to the bank and have left a generation of people scratching their heads.

See the official Navy FAQ on this:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq21-1.htm

Hope that helps.]

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

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reminds me of

"I dont know how they did it therefore they couldn't have done it"

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That's not what he's saying at all.

He's saying that the claims thave been made defy physics outright.

Not "I don't know how they did it" but, "this is not possible given the laws of science, and the author who has written these conjectures does not understand such things".

Huge difference there.

I have personally never seen any credible evidence to support the claims that are made about the philadelphia project.

I Think it is next to impossible to find credible conspiracy theories, because they either get proven true or disproven.

There are very few that remain truly shrouded.

I think the JFK assassination is one of the very few that has endless examples of valid evidence for a government conspiracy, but has never been officially resolved.

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Yes indeed the relationship between high freequency gerenators and bending space and time is anything but "common sense," but is everything that happens in science "common sense"?

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Point taken. Quantum Dynamics, for example is quite the opposite of what we would have called common sense some time ago, still it is (in large parts) undisputably true.
If there was a way however, to affect light or spacetime by EM-fields, it seems like somebody in the last 50 years would have been able to reproduce it - maybe only on a laboratory scale, which should be easy, compared to a whole battleship... would earn you Nobel Prize for shure.
Still does not make it impossible, only very very unlikely (to get back to quantum dynamics, just because there IS a incredibly small possibility that you may just pass through a wall, will you be running into walls full speed?).

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If I wanted to stir this discussion in yet another direction, I'd ask u "is there such thing as 'common sense' at all?

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In terms of conspiracy theories maybe the "has it happened before (or afterwards)" question would be an example of common sense -
Those in power (and everyone else) dealing with the enemy, betraying or damaging their own people, doing all kinds of immoral things, for personal profit or a real or percieved greater good: Has happened all throughout history.
Teleportation (even of a single particle): Has not happened even with 60 years of exponential technological progress since the alleged event.

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bottom line: if nothing similar was in ur physics book it doesnt mean that it is impossible.

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If nothing similar (despite lots of people experimenting) is in ANY physics book, still doesnt mean impossible, just unlikely.

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once again, im not arguing for it's credibility, just trying to get some MORE SENSIBLE opinions.

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Good luck .

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damn, DL snuck in, making half of my post obsolete, but while I`m at it:

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I think the JFK assassination is one of the very few that has endless examples of valid evidence for a government conspiracy, but has never been officially resolved.

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Yep, I did not want to bring it up myself, but I fully agree.
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[This message has been edited by MW (edited 12-11-2003).]

Just thought I'd drop this in:
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/01/24/attacks.pentagon/index.html

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

There is also a discussion of the timeline and why jets weren't scrambled sooner - the 911 timeline deals with this in some detail:
www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/

Interesting site too.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

The death of Princess Diana has a swirl of conspiracy theory about it. I'm agnostic about its credibility because I am not familiar enough with the facts.

. . : slicePuzzle

How about this then??
http://www.tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=27

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

"cough" It's not my job to prove anything to anyone.. If you want to ignore and just blindly skate over all the numerous discrepancies and countless details and facts that just don't fit, all of this that's your right and prerogative. Yes, if you are capable of passing over the most bizarre accounts of situations without questioning or batting an eyelid, I am hardly going to waste my time trying to tell or convince 'old dog's anything. Some of the counter reasoning I have read in here are just plain 'sordo' which is an Italian word for just plain thick and dumb blind.

Yes, I have made more than a few specific comments aimed and certain individuals.. and they know who they are.. don't all get your knickers twisted.. If the hats fits...

Suho I have not said a single word to you.. (so you can go back to you tentacle porn.. )

You just shoot the messenger.. no objectivity.. no detachment. just egos in a twist..so many psudo-experts in need of major eye surgery. hahaha.

As regards prophecy.. do you think I would squander such treasures in here BUGS? ..and allow the dirtying of pearls? If you were truly in search of truth, at your age.. surely you would have found it already.. or it would have found you.. alas neither seems to have taken place.

.. finally. this IS the forum of silliness isn't it???

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If you want to ignore and just blindly skate over all the numerous discrepancies and countless details and facts that just don't fit, all of this that's your right and prerogative

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And, if you were paying attention to the slightest thing, you'd notice that that is the exact message I am saying to you, jackass.

Take your own advice for a change, and actually THINK about the bullshit you post before you suck it all in with no discretion.

(p.s. - if we're all so "unworthy" of your "wisdom", you can always go dirty your pearls elsewhere =)

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-15-2003).]

*hugs DL*