Topic awaiting preservation: Thoughts on new NRA legislation? (Page 1 of 1)

I received the following email this morning (forwarded from a co-worker), and was curious to see what other inmates thought about the issues raised. My apologies for the length of the post...

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Dear Member of the NRA Blacklist,

We hope this update finds you in good health and we wish you a safe holiday season. We have had a very eventful three months and January promises to be nothing short of a brawl. Here's why.

While the world is currently and appropriately focused on Iraq, the NRA is quietly up to more mischief than you can believe. Here are the details.

Thanks to your support and the successful advertising and public relations campaign, funded largely with your contributions, the Senate postponed the Gun Industry Immunity Bill. Delaying the vote on this heinous bill gives us more time to advertise and more time to organize. And that's just what we'll do.

The 2004 election year will be the most important for the gun movement in a decade. And the fight has already started. The NRA is gearing up to try to pass 3 utterly reckless bills in the dead of the night. We intend to take them on directly. We intend to expose how the NRA's extremist policies weaken law enforcement. And, we intend to win.

To make sure we win, we need your help now. Our new campaign starts with this mail.
1) Please contribute whatever you can to our advertising campaign by clicking here. Help us reach our $1 million goal and 2) please pass this mail to your friends and family by clicking here so we can keep growing the NRA Blacklist and spreading the word. We have a real movement going and we won't stop.

Here are the facts: (Bill #3 is the newest outrageous ploy of the NRA: anti-gun control measures slipped into the fine print of a spending bill.)

Bill # 1: No Renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban
Puts military style rapid-fire assault weapons that have been banned for the last ten years back on the street.
Bill #2: Gun Industry Immunity Legislation

Grants sweeping immunity for Bull's Eye Shooter Supply, who armed the DC snipers and sold guns used in at least 52 other crimes, and other reckless gun dealers.
Slams the courthouse door shut on victims of gun crime once and for all.
Bill # 3: Omnibus Appropriations Bill


Destroys records of firearms sales in 24 hours instead of the current 90 day law.
Blocks authorities from requiring Bull's Eye and all other gun dealers to take regular inventories of firearms.
The NRA is out of control and at odds with the values of the American people. Their hubris and bullying tactics will be their worst enemy in 2004.

And on that happy note, thank you so much. And we send our best wishes for a happy and safe holiday season to you and your loved ones and get ready for a heck of a 2004.


The NRA Blacklist

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Now, I'm all for home and family protection, but I think that a certain amount of gun control is necessary, simply because of the fact that so many crimes are committed with guns. Surely there is a common ground between good sense and the above madness?



Cell 617

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 12-17-2003).]

Yep, there must be a middle ground. The problem is that both sides has a multitude of nuts that want all or nothing, and the harder one side pushes, the harder the other side pushes.

Based on the email, I'd say those bills are insane. Of course, I'd like to actually see the proposals themselves to see what they really say.

I just don't understand how you can control gun control. No matter what laws are passed and safety measures are used, people are going to have access to guns. Even children have access to guns. I am not too educated on this subject, but I know by the constitution it is the right of every individual to arm to defend themselves. Besides, really guns don't kill people, people kill people. We have a gun in our household safe away from my children. They know where it is. My oldest son knows how to use it. Its sad to say but in todays world, I feel safer with a gun in the house. I just don't understand why the NRA gets so much bad press. Guns, etc are part of the system going all the way back in history to the cowboys and indians. The guns are not evil, people are evil.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 12-17-2003).]

I'd really like to see the full text of the legislation as well. I just spent the better part of an hour looking for something impartial about it on the web with no luck.

Perhaps someone else would be better able to locate the requisite information?

Education is the key in any debate. I don't, by any means, advocate taking guns away from the general public, but some major record keeping of who has what gun should definitely be maintained. That #3 bill sort of makes me nervous in that respect.
Much obliged to anyone who can provide the actual text of the bills for our perusal...

[This message has been edited by bodhi23 (edited 12-17-2003).]

you can do a 'thomas' search at the u.s. library of congress web site. http://thomas.loc.gov/ and also check the house and senate web sites The House and The Senate. the senate site seems to be down at the moment though.

did a quick thomas search for the nra and got this.

i'm reading over this stuff now as i too would like to see exactly what is being said.

[This message has been edited by Lacuna (edited 12-17-2003).]

Yes, absolutely - I wholeheartedly uphold any law abiding citizen's right to own a gun, provided they are properly educated in it's use and storage.

But records need to be kept, background checks need to be done, and gun/ammunition sellers need to be held accountable for not doing the proper checks and keeping the proper paperwork.

It's certainly true that with or without guns, many of the violent crimes in society would continue. It's human nature.

But guns running rampant with less and less documentation, and less and less control is undedniably a large factor in violent crime as well.

Obviously there are plenty of illegal means by which to acquire a gun, as with any controlled item, but that certainly doesn't mean we should just stop keeping track.

I think that the "right" to carry firearms in the USA is so embedded in the phyche of the people, that it would take a fundemental shift in government and the society it "governs" before any change could be made. And I don't envisage that happening any time soon.
I'ts scarey for me to envisage what it would be like here in the UK if guns were as freely available as they seem to be in the USA. Any feeble minded idiot with a grudge thinking he/she can elevate their social standing or elimate a "problem" with a "state of the art" firearm. arghhhh.
I am not wise enough to be able to offer a soloution to this problem though, apart from the simplistic "just pass a bill to ban the use, possession and sale of all firearms (to the general public)".
While it is true that it is the misuse of guns by people, not just the guns themselves that is the problem. The potential damage caused by a nutter with a high powered gun, compared to a nutter with a stick or a knife is frightening.
My "defensive capability" for years has been an ability to sense danger and to talk my way out of it, and set (or two) of Nunchaku's.

I personally don't get what the purpose of destroying records of who purchased which gun after 90 days is...surely that's the kind of thing you'd want ot keep, so you at least know which gun is owned by which person...

If you look at the 2nd Amendment, it couches the right to keep and bear arms in the context of "a well-regulated militia." Although Constitutional interpretation has evolved to make it a personal right, if I were starting from scratch I'd say that only actual government-sanctioned militias (e.g. the National Guard) could have firearms by Constitutional right; and then obviously states could allow them on a case-by-case basis.

Cell 1250 :: alanmacdougall.com :: Illustrator tips

We would never outlaw the use of firearms in the USA. That would be like trying to control the use of marijuana & cocaine. It just will not happen. Guns are here to stay.

Going back to the Columbine tragedy, I remember that gun control issues were brought up and the NRA started to take some heat. And I remember thinking that the guns weren't the problem. The youth were. Sure guns were used to commit murders but it was the youth who were out of control. Not the guns. The masses are being spoon fed by all types of mediums that violence and killing are used to achieve a means, be it in movies, video games, music, or hateful orgainizations. So many unstable, problem and misdirected persons are affected by these. In my opionon, here lies the problem. No amount of gun legislation will fix the problem, when you have a lot of loose cannons out there who need guidance or help. What other time in past history has so much youth committed so many murders. Especially in their own schools as young as 9 years old. Will gun legislation help? Maybe, but it will not fix the overall problem.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 12-17-2003).]

Sounds like a great sales letter... Has fear, desperation, and urgency. They should be able to raise a lot of funds with that one. I wonder what the objective truth is?

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That would be like trying to control the use of marijuana & cocaine. It just will not happen.

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I am at a total loss as to what you are saying there.

The government expends millions and millions of dollars, and countless man-hours in the DEA, state and local police forces, the coast gaurd, and federal and state courts in efforts to control those and many other drugs.

Are you saying that the same should be done with guns? Or that drug use is OK and so are guns? Or that despite those efforts, people still use drugs so we shouldn't bother?

quote:

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Going back to the Columbine tragedy, I remember that gun control issues were brought up and the NRA started to take some heat. And I remember thinking that the guns weren't the problem. The youth were. Sure guns were used to commit murders but it was the youth who were out of control. Not the guns. The masses are being spoon fed by all types of mediums that violence and killing are used to achieve a means, be it in movies, video games, music, or hateful orgainizations. So many unstable, problem and misdirected persons are affected by these. In my opionon, here lies the problem.

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This may be a first, but I agree wholeheartedly with you there Jade. Of course, in addition to the problem being with the kids that committed the act, there were clearly some big problems with the parents as well. Unfortunately, there are far worse parenting problems all over the country.

Legislation isn't going to solve the problems of violence. But laws concerning how guns are kept track of, and regulating who can elgally and easily purchase them can certainly go a long way toward helping to stop or solve violent crime cases.


Now, as far as the actual amendment is concerned - "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It doesn't say that the government will have the guns, and give them to it's soldiers.
I'll agree that it is a little on the vague side though.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-17-2003).]

DL
I was referring that if the USA outlawed firearems, it would be a loosing battle in trying to enforce the law. Tons of millions would surly be spent on that like the DEA using enforcing the stopping of the illegal drugs. And tons of millions would be lost by sporting/hunting industry.

Ah - I see. Similar to the prohibition years... I agree (there's always a first time...). But I don't think that's the answer either.

There must be a combination of education in schools, responsibility by the parents, and reasonable legislation to curb the damage done by guns in our society.

And record keeping! We must keep records of who has what gun... If ever a gun is lost or stolen and then used in a crime, how do you even know where to start without decent records?
I had no idea that gun records were destroyed even after 90 days... that's got to be the dumbest policy I ever heard.

And yeah, I agree it does sound like a good sales pitch letter... That's why I was looking for some unbiased documentation about the bills themselves. I'll go back to the library of congress search idea Lacuna brought up and see what I can find. I didn't have a lot of time to look over that stuff earlier today... Work calls occasionally, you know!

Ok, I more or less figured out what you meant after I posted, was just ebing thick at that moment.

Yeah, it'd be futile to try to outlaw guns altogether, and counterproductive all in all.

The most important point on this issue was made in bodhi's first post really - there needs to be a common ground, and extremists on both sides need to really suck it up and get there.

I'm still at a loss as to why you would want to destroy records of who bought which gun and so forth...

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I'm still at a loss as to why you would want to destroy records of who bought which gun and so forth...

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Duh!


1) When the UN Shock Troops come to take over the US we dont want them to have a ready list of all our armed citizens.

2) Criminals need to be fed into the Prison system at a sustainable rate. If we caught all of them... where would we put them? Traceable guns would make too many get caught.

3) How else do you expect the CIA to supply american drug financiers with effective, untraceable weaponry.

4) The government cant be trusted with that kind of power, the politicians need to be unsure of who has a gun... otherwise they will be even more crooked.

Sheesh... this list could go on forever

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imho it's pretty naive that anyone would actually believe those records aren't sitting in more than one database somewhere

not to say there aren't millions of arms out there which never have and never will be on record

ed says: propagandist bullshit

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 12-19-2003).]

More than one!?

DAMN! Foiled again.

Hmmm, knives are just so sloppy. Now about those never listed weapons, do they come with a warranty?

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hahaha DL-44 I see you confess to being thick on occasion.. what a relief.. lol

..anyway give them all the guns they want and lt may get them to start de-populating themselves... The land of the gun.. the gun.

yeah.........

not the first time, surely won't be the last. But that has nothing to do with any of my conversations with you




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 12-30-2003).]

Ever watch a fishing boat with trawling nets? They catch a lot of stuff, eh?

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Bleah...