Topic awaiting preservation: Bush in 30 seconds

Anyone up for some well polished propaganda?
http://www.bushin30seconds.org/

It'd be great if it could open some eyes and minds.
And at least, it shows some well done/directed ads and will bring a necessary counter power in the media coverage of the forthcoming election.



[This message has been edited by poi (edited 01-21-2004).]

Excuse me while I flush

. . : slicePuzzle

Some of those ads are nicely done. Interesting contest



Amerasu

Some nice work in there... Good job applying their spin. But...

quote:

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Excuse me while I flush

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...is just about right.

I hear that spin is counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere.

In regards to;

quote:

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Excuse me while I flush

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Is that a reference to Bush, the commercials, or the site?

Or, is to indicate that Having M. Moore as a judge will keep the winning commercial somewhere left of reality, in a toilet?

______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Yes

I quite liked the content myself. "Imagine" was my fave. I can't wait to see the back of Bush and this administration.

Amerasu

Just a question from someone who doesn't follow politics very closly.

Would the content of those ads be mostly true or mostly false?

__________________________
"Show me a sane person and I will cure him for you."-Carl Jung
Eagles may fly high, but beavers don't get sucked into get engines.
tj333- the semi-Christ

... hah!

Some of them are done really well...

Sound like jokes to me though.

tj333, honestly it really comes down to who you choose to believe. I will tell you that most of what you get on those ads is gross exagerration bording on outright falsehoods... but do you trust my word on that? Or do you trust someone else here who will tell you the exact opposite of what I just said? Please use this as an example of why it is so important that *you* be informed about the issues politics seeks to solve. Take in a wide variety of news sources and formulate your own opinions about the veracity of the crap you see on that site... um... did I say crap?

. . : slicePuzzle

Bugimus: Since I'm the only one who approved the content of these ads, I guess I'm the "someone else" you didn't name.

Let me precise that I "partially" approve the content. I say that 'coz there's some facts ( mainly the financial and social situation in the USA ) on which I have really little knowledge. Nonetheless there's several points that can not be ignored i.e. the lies around the war in Iraq, the patriot-act, the US withdraw from ABM treaty, the rejection of the Kyoto Treaty by the USA



[This message has been edited by poi (edited 01-21-2004).]

Bugs: Could you be more specific about the crap? An awful lot of the information there has come up here:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000998.html



___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

You know how it works, politics is a game. Take any particular event and I'll spin it to the right and you will spin it to the left, generally speaking. Obviously, there are topics where we will agree, but as a general rule it's about viewing issues from different sets of guidelines.

Emps, but so much of what is posted in the "Taking Liberties" thread is very biased. You quote regularly from a Left wing newspaper. (which is fine by me as long as we're clear on the biases involved) I don't post as much but when I do it is from publications that spin the other direction. For just about every point you bring up about how Bush is a creep, I can make a case for him being a great aleader. I know it makes a lot of people sick to hear that but you don't know how often I have to hurl when I hear the scathing attacks on a good man.

Look, the only attack that has any merit is probably the environment. The administration clearly doesn't buy into the environmentalist agenda. But the economy is getting stronger by the day, the war on terror is going far better than I had anticipated, the tax cuts have helped ease the tax burden on *everyone* who pays taxes in this country, Bush is spending far *more* than he should on education, and the president's approval rating is still rather positive. This is a far cry different from the synopsis you'll find on the "Why We're Doing This" page.

. . : slicePuzzle

quote:

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Just a question from someone who doesn't follow politics very closly.

Would the content of those ads be mostly true or mostly false?

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The two sites below take a look at Bush from two perspectives, left and right for want of better terms. I came across them last night on Snopes.

Left http://idontfeelsogood.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_idontfeelsogood_archive.html
Right: http://www.crossbearer.com/resume/The_Truth.pdf

I'd say yes, the content of the ads is basically true with the usual amount of campaign flourish and vitriol thrown in (which the republicans also do). I'm on the left of the political spectrum so to me, moveon.org are promoting the good way

Edit to fix url

Amerasu

[This message has been edited by Amerasu (edited 01-08-2004).]

Bugs: I think your bloody nuts!! You put your US economy over our god/nature given envioroment?.. and war as a solution to anything.. What would your god say about that I wonder? I have never met a Christian like you befor.



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-08-2004).]

Don't mix religion with politics.

"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

Bugs: As usual you are correct - a lot of the information (esp. on the war and the motivation of various policies) could be taken various ways - I am curious to know how you feel about the trillions of dollars of debt being built up and the poor state of the dollar?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

What.. are you telling me that god has nothing to do with mans affairs and should stand aside when world changing events are dicussed? Don't mix religon with politics? So is politics life without god? Is that what you are saying? Like god must shuttup while you busily go about messing the planet up? I actually agree that politic and religon should not mix.. cos maybe politics should not exist at all..

quote:

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Main Entry: pol·i·tics
Pronunciation: 'pä-l&-"tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: Greek politika, from neuter plural of politikos political
Date: circa 1529
1 a : the art or science of government b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2 : political actions, practices, or policies
3 a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government) b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices
4 : the political opinions or sympathies of a person
5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view <office politics>

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Yes your right... light and dark should not be mixed...

quote:

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What.. are you telling me that god has nothing to do with mans affairs and should stand aside when world changing events are dicussed? Don't mix religon with politics? So is politics life without god? Is that what you are saying? Like god must shuttup while you busily go about messing the planet up? I actually agree that politic and religon should not mix.. cos maybe politics should not exist at all..

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Not everyone believes in gods. I certainly don't and I'd rather not see religion and politics mixed at all. If you want to worship, then go right ahead, just don't inject your religion(s) into the governing of a diverse group of people.

Amerasu

methinks this thread should be moved to the Silliness forum.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

Ok then.. ..this has nothing to do with religeon..

US has only 5% of the worlds population but cause over a quarter of the worlds global warming emissions and pollutants and show no intention of slowing down. At this rate scientists say that 1,000,000 species of animals and other life forms will be wiped out from this planet in the next 20 years. Great dam policies you have there. But hey as long as the US population have cash in their pockets and food in their already over fat bellies and fat cars in their driveways it's all good.

There is something seriously wrong with a people that allow this to happen, and don't tell me that it will be changed by voting and intellectual debate and civilised discussion and democratic crap.. as that's been going on for ever and never changed a single thing... Many think religious people are blind.. but I this kind political thinking is the grossest form of self deception there is.



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-08-2004).]

This is about the answer that I somewhat expected then.

It is as true/bad as who you ask and how you look at it.

__________________________
"Show me a sane person and I will cure him for you."-Carl Jung
Eagles may fly high, but beavers don't get sucked into get engines.
tj333- the semi-Christ

... 0.o ...
Just Looking in...

I guess my problem with this, is Michael Moore as one of the Judges. His Documentaries are actually Docudramas. They are NOT objective. The way he edits things are misleading at best, and downright lies at worst. I can only guess as to the leanings of the other judges, but I can guarantee that they are not very close to centered.

The legitimacy of any position is challenged by polarization. When taken to the extreme left or right, neither has any chance of showing us what is real. Bush is not a Saint, and neither is he a Demon. However, demonizing him will not make the opposing candidates any better. It will be another choice of 'the lesser of two evils'.

Although, adding M. Moore's slanted demonilogistic© rantings will alienate many centric voters. I imagine that anyone he supports will be hindered by such an association. I wonder if he may just be working for the 'Bush People'. By being such a whiney, self righteous twit, he makes whatever he says suspect. Many people will believe that if Mickey Moore is saying it, it cant be all true...


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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 01-08-2004).]

Politics: the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
Religion: the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a populace

I can't make out the light for the dark.


Psst!

I agree that Michael Moore is a bit tainted but I'm not entirely sure it's all merited. I've read the paper by David Harley critiquing Bowling for Columbine and I've also read the counter argument here. I think they both make valid points.

I haven't read his books.


Amerasu

[This message has been edited by Amerasu (edited 01-08-2004).]

bd:

quote:

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methinks this thread should be moved to the Silliness forum.

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Agreed.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Well stuff my ass and call me a turkey, I thought this was going to be a "how to pick up chicks" thread.

:::11oh1:::

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Well stuff my ass and call me a turkey...

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Yeah, you'd like that wouldn't you? You sick fuck...




"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

Umm Unknown. It's not just Michael Moore, all the judges lean to the left. It's the point of the whole contest. They're not judging politics, they're judging TV ads for effectiveness a job Michael Moore is extremely talented for.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

Ok, so I have been pretty laid back in the past here, but I am going to let myself loose this time. You may hate me when it's over, but I don't care. You know how Suho likes to do stream of consciousness critiques, well here is a little stream of my consciousness. If you are easily offended and take things to heart, I suggest you skip this one, because I ain't holding back.

I come here to get away from the world and always seem to get sucked into these discussions one way or another, I just can't resist when I see Americans(the people not the country) being attacked. There is enough arguing in the world, and the news is enough to both piss a person off and severely depress them at the same time, regardless of what angle it comes from. My opinion of a person is never dented in any way because of political or religious views, unless extreme, like supporting Pedophiles like the ACLU. The ACLU should be burned to the ground IMO. Anyone who supports NAMBLA should burn as should the organization itself.

I know that I can't change anything, I am a nobody who makes a measly 25k a year and my one vote don't count for dick. Not when there are corporations spending billions of dollars on their candidates. The world is run by rich "silver-spoon in their mouth" morons who have no concept of anything because they have had everything served to them on a silver platter their entire lives (Yeah, Bush fits right in there).

He pissed me off enough with his Immigration Reform proposal that I am starting to dislike him. I am fine with Iraq, and could care less about the supposed lies, but I am just about fucking tired of all the money we send to other countries, all of whom hate us. You know what I think. To hell with the rest of the world. Use the money to fix this fucking country first. So the economy is one the rise? Big deal, that just means more fucking taxes and more handouts.

You show me a man who has had dirt kicked in his face all his life, is pissed on, shit on, and basically raped in the ass, yet struggles on to support his 5 kids and wife, that's who I want to vote for. Someone in touch with reality. Real people who know the value of a dollar and have worked their way up from NOTHING. That is integrity, that is character. The days of Ivy League politians and multi-billion dollar corporations lobbying needs to go or the world will never fucking change.

Do I like George Bush?

My answer is yes and no. I support the war in Iraq, that's pretty much it lately. I don't support doling out money like candy to unappreciative foreigners while I watch my country's social and economic system degrade to shit. I don't agree with granting immunity to illegal aliens who steal our fucking jobs and should't be here in the first place. Break the law, get citizenship. Here is what needs done, stop giving lazy human trash welfare, and fill those immigrant jobs with Americans. Make them work, give them no other choice. If they refuse, kick em out or let them resort to crime and lock their asses up where they belong in the first place. Stop giving people rewards for being lazy mother fuckers. I love to drive to work and see some lowlife sitting on his front stoop sucking on a crack pipe waiting for his welfare check so he can buy more while his kids go to school without winter coats. People are lazy here, and a lot of the blame can be placed on the government who supports them. And if the liberals have their way, it'll only get worse.

I am also tired of those same people complaining they don't get a fair shake, that is pure BS. Another excuse for the lazy intoxicated trash which comprises 25% of the population. And don't think I am pointing at specific minorities, as their are plenty of low life whites as well.

I do not like that Bush, although only one man, is blamed for EVERYTHING, as if there isn't an entire governmental system around him fucking up too. He's the president, it must be his fault right. Sure yeah, he fucks up too, he is human. But the support system around him is also screwing up. The world is a different place now than it was when Podunk Bill was in office, and I am sure anybody in that position today would be taking just as much heat. Why? Because since 9/11 people watch the news more often, some who never watched it their entire lives now watch religiously. People who for years didn't care what went on around them are finding out what DOES go on and they are pissed, shocked and want change. This goes for both ends of the spectrum, everybody is pissed. This backlash would have been placed on Gore too had he taken office.

Do I like any of the so-called presidential candidates who only whine and moan like pissy little babies, HELL NO! They all have their own agendas and could give 2 shits about the common man.

What is my choice, I just ain't gonna vote, cause they are all liars one way or another. They make false promises so they can get elected, same as you might boost yourself while on a job interview, although hopefully not to that degree. And what happends when it turns out you can't do the job? Same thing needs to happen with politics. If public opinion drops below 50%, fire their ass!! You failed, you're out! I think we should take a lesson from California.

I am also tired of being penalized because I smoke. Tax me to death, then give the money to doctors so they can pay their malpractice insurance. As far as I'm concerned, nobody should be given anything, EARN IT YOUR DAMN SELF, I had to. Handouts only lower motivation, and that is a very very bad trend that is only getting worse. So what if I smoke, I know its bad for me and I choose to anyway, that's free will, and I don't need some fat bastard like Meathead telling me what to do. Why the hell do I need to pay $43 buck for cigarettes, when the actual cost of manufacturing is a few bucks? Because these rich assholes throw it all away, and when supply is short, tax some more. It's a quick and simple solution that has been used far too long.

Seems nice and quiet up there in Canada, maybe I should go there. Although I'm sure they hate us too.

Why don't we all just push the button already and be done with this increasingly rapid downward spiral.

Oh, about the ads, I think some of them hold a lot of merit, but I am not too stupid to recognize exagerration. I'd like to see one of those desktops done for some of the other so-called candidates.

That ends my silliness ramble for the week. I hope I came across as the intolerant sonofabitch that I am.

One last note to a comment from Xpirex:

quote:

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But hey as long as the US population have cash in their pockets and food in their already over fat bellies and fat cars in their driveways it's all good.

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I am not one to throw insults back, but why don't you get off your high horse and suck it.




[This message has been edited by Ramasax (edited 01-09-2004).]

The ads are funny! Thanks.

I like "Desktop."

Do something about that twisted place you live in.. that overindulgent cesspit infested hole... that stolen place you call your America and I might... I am sick to the teeth of hearing about US this and US that.. fucking up everything there is to fuck up.. in everyones dam face all the dam time.. you destroy everything you touch. Your opinions reek. ..close your borders.. scan your own dam retinas.. Immigrants??? you are all immigrants.. The glory days are coming to an end. Sit behind your fence and tremble.



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-09-2004).]

From an artistic and creative standpoint, the work isn't too bad. I think the subject matter sucks. Not because it is anti-Bush, simply because they are political. I hate election years. A whole year of being bombarded by political ads that offer nothing of the truth... regardless of which side of the political spectum the candidates fall. I don't watch much television to begin with. Election years, I watch even less. The whole debacle makes me nauseous. I got through all but three of the entries... and I just couldn't watch anymore.

Attention getting hyperbole... I suppose what more can you ask from a media that has spoon fed society into a soundbyte craving mass? May all political advertisors rot. Someone remind me to plug my TV back in when 2005 rolls around.

Ramasax: I can second just about everything you said.

Xpiriex: Just a few words of advice. Turn off your TV if you don't like what it says. Cancel your Newspaper subscriptions if you don't like reading what they have to say. Maybe, just maybe in your dark little tantrum, you can open your mind a little and see a few of the good things the US has done for the world. I know that might be asking a bit much, but just remember there are a large number of people in the US that are not demonic evildoers out to conquer the world. I realize I'm probably wasting my breath (as it were), the US is not perfect, far from it... Just keep in mind that the US is the product of its immigrants... in a very broad sense, the entire world is responsible for what the US has become. One other thing... No. We are not all immigrants. One has to actively move from one country to another to become an Immigrant. Look far enough back in your own family's history and I am sure you will find that they were not all native to whatever country you live in.

quote:

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Do something about that twisted place you live in.. that overindulgent cesspit infested hole... that stolen place you call your America and I might... I am sick to the teeth of hearing about US this and US that.. fucking up everything there is to fuck up.. in everyones dam face all the dam time.. you destroy everything you touch. Your opinions reek. ..close your borders.. scan your own dam retinas.. Immigrants??? you are all immigrants.. The glory days are coming to an end. Sit behind your fence and tremble.

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1. I don't live in a tree so my home isn't twisted. Actually, it's rather blocky.
2. Which America?
3. If you're "sick to the teeth", I suggest you see a dentist.
4. I'm an entrepreneurial creative. I don't think I destroy everything I touch... I like to think that I do more creation than destruction.
5. Unless I just ate something smelly, I don't understand how my opinions could "reek."
6. I prefer not to use borders in my designs, however, sometimes they just look really good!
7. I don't know why I need to scan my retinas...
8. The modern concept of an "immigrant" is quite primitive and far too selective. We are simply humans and we are native to Earth... as far as we know.
9. Oh, the glory days... Sorry, I've never seen those.
10. The only reason why I'd tremble behind my fence is if the air was cold. Even then, I'm smart enough to return inside my home and put on a jacket.


[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 01-09-2004).]

*laughs at Xpired*

Did you not heed my warning at the top of my previous post? See, you took it to heart, and lookie what you went and did, only solidified my point that you are ignorant.

Say all you want about this government, I don't care, and might even agree occasionally. But what the fuck do YOU know about the common US citizen? Answer that. In your face? Damn fucking right I'm in your face when you show such blind hatred toward my people, my family and my friends. The people whom I know and love. The majority here just want to live their fucking lives, as do you, but you seem to believe that we are all in on this huge conspiracy to take over the world.

You know, I could say a lot more, but I won't. What's the point? I see how deep your hatred runs from the spittle flying from your wonderfully eloquent post. That truly saddens me, it really really does.

quote:

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I agree that Michael Moore is a bit tainted but I'm not entirely sure it's all merited

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Of course, I agree...

No one has the whole story. But, of those I know, there is always a chuckle about him. He's two faced. When questioned about truth, he says "It's just Entertainment", but then accepts an oscar for a documentary with the righteousness of a gospel preacher. Which is it? ...'Entertainment' or 'Factual Reporting'? It ends up being neither.


______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Moondancer: I don't hate the common man.. the humble citizen.. the kids the family the friends.. But see the way that guy above reacts.. I voice a strong opinion about the US system and govermental attitude and stance and the societys indifference and and he thinks I'm a threat to his family!!! Thats what I hate... that must mean either all his family menbers, kids, friends all must work for the US goverment... or he is using the same twisted strategy they use... abiut the whole dam world being a threat to the beloved fucking squatted homeland.

What do I see as the only good or interesting thing to come out of America? ..Jazz.. that it.. nothing else..

quote:

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I don't hate the common man.. the humble citizen.. the kids the family the friends.. But see the way that guy above reacts.. I voice a strong opinion about the US system and govermental attitude and stance and the societys indifference and and he thinks I'm a threat to his family!!! Thats what I hate... that must mean either all his family menbers, kids, friends all must work for the US goverment... or he is using the same twisted strategy they use... abiut the whole dam world being a threat to the beloved fucking squatted homeland.

What do I see as the only good or interesting thing to come out of America? ..Jazz.. that it.. nothing else..

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This thread isn't about hate, etc. It's about political ads. Talk about 'em or shut up.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 01-09-2004).]

Bush in 30 words:

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It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas.

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George W Bush - Beaverton, Oregon, Sept 25, 2000

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I know the human being and the fish can coexist peacefully.

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George W Bush - Saginaw, Michigan, Sept 29, 2000

You have to respect this guy's insight... dontcha!

>edit - added url

[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 01-09-2004).]

According to the IMF it looks like the massive US debt is shaping up to destroying the global economy:
www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1118425,00.html

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

quote:

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Bugs: I think your bloody nuts!! You put your US economy over our god/nature given envioroment?.. and war as a solution to anything.. What would your god say about that I wonder? I have never met a Christian like you befor.

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But you still love me just the same, right?

I am actually pleased when you say you've never met a Xian like me before because it means I've caused you to rethink what it means to be one. I find that there are multitudes of assumptions made about Xianity and so many of them are misconceptions. But then there are others that are firmly based in the actions and views of those who call themselves Xian and this attaches baggage to the name that does not belong. All I can do about that is point this out to people in hopes they can make the proper distinctions.

I believe the environment is very important. It's just that I don't believe it is as bad as you say. I am far more concerned about human evil in this world than I am about the internal combustion engine. I believe the former is a greater threat to humankind.

I did not say that war is the solution to anything. I have simply said that it is the solution to some things, which it absolutely is. If you have even the slightest grasp of human history, you will know this to be true. I never said it was pleasant and I never said that alternatives should not be sought, it is just necessary sometimes.

quote:

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I am curious to know how you feel about the trillions of dollars of debt being built up and the poor state of the dollar?

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Very upset!!! That is why I put that little jab in my earlier words about spending too much on education. This president is spending too much money!!! I do not have a problem spending lots of money on the war because that fulfills one of the basic functions of government, which is to protect its citizenry, but the increased spending on education, prescription drugs, and any other number of social programs is troublesome.

There is very little difference in this country between the Republicans and Democrats when it comes to spending I'm sorry to say. But even with this spending the burgeoning economy will be able to mitigate the debt, I believe. It worked that way in the 80s and I see no reason why it can't happen in the next few years.

Now I'm going to catch up with the rest of the thread and see if there's more to respond to.

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-09-2004).]

Bloody Nuts Bugs:

[quote]This president is spending too much money!!! I do not have a problem spending lots of money on the war because that fulfills one of the basic functions of government, which is to protect its citizenry, but the increased spending on education, prescription drugs, and any other number of social programs is troublesome.[quote]

LOL - I'd always rather more was spent on education and health and less on uneccesary wars

Also as excited as I am about the boost to the space programme I do worry if we really should be spending that right now

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There is very little difference in this country between the Republicans and Democrats when it comes to spending I'm sorry to say.

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I thought that C*****n fella left office with the budget in the black

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

He did... thanks to the Republican win of Congress in '94 and the tech bubble

. . : slicePuzzle

I have to argue one of your points too Bugs:

quote:

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/war/ is the solution to some things

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I'd argue that it is merely a sulution.

As history has also shown us, it is written by the victors and no matter how unbiassed the intent, history will always carry a degree of propaganda along for the ride.

[edit - spelling]

[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 01-09-2004).]

Dufty, I am seriously saying that sometimes it is *the* solution. I am not talking about a world in which none of us live but the real world. I can only agree with your point if we stipulate that every single human on the planet lives by values that would avoid the need for war. But then again, we are talking about the way things are as opposed to how we would wish them to be.

So please tell me how you would have stopped Hitler without the use of violence. Could it have been done?

. . : slicePuzzle

Bigamus, Metahuman, Ramasax, DL-44

Public confession:
I am wrong about you guys.. I have nothing against anyone.. I love everyone.. I am sorry for being an asshole sometimes.. and mistakenly targetting you guys..and for my often rash impulsive outburts when it's nothing to do with you at all. I am sorry. I am utterly powerless to change anything and it drives me insane. I need to rethink a few things..I don't hate Americans.. I had a ball in your country and met many beautiful people there. I am extremely disturbed and sad about the situation in the world..and the direction the big players are taking us.. it really gets to me and I can do nothing about it apart from just sit and watch and be sad and helpless.

I'm very sorry. Forgive me please.. that's not who I am.



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-10-2004).]

Actually Bugs there's a significant difference with how Democrats and Republicans spend. The Democrats understand that taxes are neccessary evils to pay for their spending. ( not to mention ideologically at least the Republicans should be spending less than the Dems)



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

quote:

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So please tell me how you would have stopped Hitler without the use of violence.

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By recognising the threat before it became a threat:

1933 Hitler is invited to become chancellor, in an attempt to control him and his 'National Socialist Party' - !
1935 Hitler declares Germany will no longer honour the Versailles peace treaty - !
1936 German troops march on the previousy demilitarized Rheinland - !
1938 Austria, Sudeten and Chechoslovakia are occupied - !
1939 German-Russian Non-Agression Pact signed - Poland invaded - TOO LATE!

Were it not for the endless beurocracy and cowardice of 'modern politics' (which a: enabled him to become chancellor and b: enabled him to amass an army of sheep, desparate to be led out of a depression), the war could have been averted peacefully before it even began.

As it is, the world reacted too late and millions of people needlessly died.

I'd argue that the same could be said of Iraq: If Saddam hadn't been groomed and deployed in the first place...

>edit: That said, maybe I am also guilty of being an idealist.
(according to those IQ testing type bods, my intellectual type is 'Visionary Philosopher').

[This message has been edited by Dufty (edited 01-10-2004).]

Xpirex, no worries! It's good to have you here in the mix. We take on some very upsetting topics and some of us just deal with them differently. I've lost my cool more than once around here... I just usually refrain from hitting that reply button until I've had a chance to consider my words after counting to 10

Bit, you're right that the Reps should be spending less, it really bothers me they're not. But the reason I say there is little difference is based on how much Bush *is* spending on stuff we don't have the money for... that's in line idealogically with the Dems and not the Reps. I want there to be a bigger difference between the two!

The way I see it is that the Dems traditionally raise taxes and have lots of government spending whereas the Reps prefer to lower taxes and let the increased revenue from that pay for the necessary programs. Both ways work in theory. I sometimes wonder though whether anyone, even the best economist, really understands how the economy works. I see it as an extremely inexact science.

Dufty, idealism is fine as long as you don't get us all killed putting it into practice But seriously, I agree with your timeline but let's assume the threat was fully recognized in 1933, or even sooner. How could you have avoided the probelms without violence? It would have required taking action against a sovereign nation's internal affairs. How do you get another country to do that without violence or at least some threat of violence in some other form of coercion.

Take Iraq as an example. Everyone here agrees that Hussein was a complete despot and not worthy of his role over the last 30 some years. But who put him in power? HE DID. Take a look at the history of his rise to power sometime and you will see no outside powers installed him. Outside powers most certainly interacted with him at varying degrees but without invading and forcing another outcome, his rise was inevitable. (DL-44, I am fully aware that the further history of cutting up the region after WWI and all played into this. I'm really not trying to erase that )

. . : slicePuzzle

Xpirex, what Bugimus said man. No hard feelings, after all, words are just words.

Dufty: I don't know if they "needlessly" died... However, considering that Bush, Jr. is essentially following in Hitler's footsteps by systematically eradicating "terrorists" (hint: you're not a terrorist if you are in your own country fighting invaders), limiting American Liberty through the passage of the Patriot acts (Patriot II was passed on the sly when Saddam was captured thus the largest manipulation of official investigative powers becomes a mere footnote in history), and slowly eliminating separation of Church (any religion not just Christianity) and State... I don't think it's possible for governments to learn from mistakes of the magnitude of Hitler's Holocaust.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 01-11-2004).]

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I just usually refrain from hitting that reply button until I've had a chance to consider my words after counting to 10

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I use win98se, ie6, old bios, and the wonderfully inadequate 'Lucent v90+dsl WildWire Modem' connected to an old noisy telephone line. This combination keeps my posting in check most times. Should I get caught up in a 10 paragraph rant. My connection actually proofreads for ideological snafus and by the time I click reply my connection has already dropped.



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Bleah...

metahuman When was Patriot 2 passed? What's your source?

apparently, it's not being called patriot act 2:

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Wired News

The so-called Patriot Act II was discovered by the Center for Public Integrity last year, which exposed the draft legislation and initiated a public outcry that forced the government to back down on its plans.

But critics say the government didn't abandon its goals after the uproar; it simply extracted the most controversial provisions from Patriot Act II and slipped them surreptitiously into other bills, such as the Intelligence Authorization Act, to avoid raising alarm.

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you can also wade through the House and the Senate sites for more info.
also, here's the link for The Center for Public Integrity.

[This message has been edited by Lacuna (edited 01-12-2004).]

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So please tell me how you would have stopped Hitler without the use of violence.

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This is easy. Never create a situation that allows a man like Hitler to come into power. It's widely accepted and understood that the harsh conditions imposed on Germany following WWI led to Hitler gaining power. Had the United States and its allies shown more understanding after WWI Hitler would have been stopped before he began, and without killing a single person.

Jestah

Ramasax wrote:

I don't agree with granting immunity to illegal aliens who steal our fucking jobs and should't be here in the first place. Break the law, get citizenship. Here is what needs done, stop giving lazy human trash welfare, and fill those immigrant jobs with Americans. Make them work, give them no other choice. If they refuse, kick em out or let them resort to crime and lock their asses up where they belong in the first place. Stop giving people rewards for being lazy mother fuckers.

I know this reply is way past the post, but I want to touch on it a bit more because of the Bush immigration reform. And also because I work with many immigrants who have permission to work in the US. And also know persons who work here illegally.

Here in Texas since we are right next to the Mexican border we have loads of immigrants who we hire because they are cheap labor. My company plant workforce is composed of predominatly hispanics going all the way to the tip of fartherest South American borders. If you want to put blame on who is taking your American jobs, blame it on the American companies and corporations who only look at profits. Not the welfare of the American citizen. It always about money. Also look at the large American corporations who have moved to Mexico because there labor is cheap. You cannot blame the Mexican citizen who wants a better life and future to look towards the USA where its a land of opportuntity for all like the immigrants who came before them from Europe. From what I have seen the concept the VIPS have is that these immigrants should be thankful they have a job and we can boot them out and someone else can always take their place for less money. And they don't complains as much as the American worker does too. They are intimidated. The amount of money they pay these workers is not enough to support a family unless they work overtime. Anglos do not want these jobs because the pay is too low. So these Hispanics are working the jobs that anglo Americans don't want. They are not stealing American jobs. We here should be grateful they want to do those jobs. Like freeway construction jobs, clean up, janitors, building construction jobs, restuarant help, food service, hotel maids & banquet help, landscaping. Mexican immigrants built my gunite pool and were supervised by Anglos. I bet the wage they paid them was very low. Most are excellent good hard workers who have the same ideals the born American has. Many begged the streets as youngsters and worked as young as seven years old and have had a very hard life compared to the born spoon fed anglo American. So, I think we should have a little more compassion for the immigrants. Unstead of blaming them, blame the American companies that seek to hire them only. The new home building industry is upset because they hire sub-conctractors, who hire illegal aliens to work on homes and after Bush reform they will loose money, whereas they should be prosecuted for hiring illegal workers. Plus many immigrants are abused and mistreated because of the threat of calling immigration if they complain. So they are also exploited by many US companies.

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-13-2004).]

[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-13-2004).]

Rauthrin: This isn't the story I read somewhere, but it's similar.
With a whisper, not a bang

ACLU Fact Sheet on PATRIOT Act II

TalkLeft: September 10, 2003 / Bush to Announce 'Patriot Act II' Today

Well, if things get bad enough, perhaps we can have the American Revolution II, too, to overthrow our "evil" regime. By the way, I'm not a liberal, and I only recently found TalkLeft while searching for the source you requested. Unfortunately, the article that I did read has been removed from CNN.

Of course, if you want to find out how fuct our rights are getting... Elaine Cassel of Cassel's Civil Liberties Watch is pretty good with coverage: http://babelogue.citypages.com:8080/ecassel/

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...removed from CNN...

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Figures...

Damn you people and your leftist links!

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http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12234&c=206
Unprecedented power of the government to revoke American citizenship even of native-born Americans and detain them indefinitely

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Do we have a resident right wing conservative who can confirm this?

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Bleah...

I'm pretty close to that But I can neither confirm nor deny this information

My gut feeling on these is that Patriot I was justified but going much further should be opposed. There is a real danger of stepping on too many of our fundamental rights as citizens because of this war. Because it will be a very long war, the danger is even more real because the "frog in the kettle" effect is more likely to take effect.

Jestah, agreed. But your scenario is very far-fetched because governments rarely if ever have that much forsight. And even if the forsight is there, the public will is certainly not. So I want to know if it is possible *after* 1933. I also want to point out that the *primary* focus for his rise to power has to be put on the German people themselves. I totally agree that keeping Germany destitute after WWI was a mistake, one corrected after WWII mind you, but Hitler could never have assumed so much power if the citizenry hadn't played along in a big way.

. . : slicePuzzle

I think these "Patriot" laws need to be reigned in...

If not, I dont think I can conscientiously vote for those who think these are acceptable laws. As of right now, I myself have nothing to fear from these laws. However, I still dont think that much power should be given to any government. Even if Martial Law has been declared, these laws are inappropriate for a "free" democratic society.

The idea that a citizen can be stripped of their constitutional rights is apalling.




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Bleah...

I've made the point previously that during every war we've had, certain rights have been curtailed. These rights have always been reinstated after the threat has been eliminated. The US has a decent track record in this regard. But that does not mean it is automatic!!! We have to be very vigilant to make sure we don't go too far and that these measures don't become permanent.

In theory, I agree with most of the Patriot Acts I/II. However, the main problem rests in the implementation of these acts. They will be misused and evidence of such misusage is already evidence. Pay attention to the news and you'll see. If a governmental agency decides to call you a terrorist, they will, and you will be charged as such.

It is a fool who thinks 9/11 can still be used to justify the misusage of these acts, the hassle of using the airports, and the toppling of Saddam Hussein's regime among many other things. The year is now 2004 not 2001.

A good time for words to be repeated

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"Anyone who would trade their freedom for safety
deserves neither freedom or safety."

-Ben Franklin

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Bleah...

metahuman, I don't think you should dismiss what happened on 9/11 so lightly. If we don't do anything to remove the threat that brought about 9/11, it will happen again. There is a balance that must be found between a free society and fighting against elements that want to remove that freedom. At this particular time in history we are faced with a foreign and very idealogically driven effort intent on destabilizing the society that provides the freedoms we all hold so dear. *Something* has to be done to stop that effort.

. . : slicePuzzle

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...the society that provides the freedoms we all hold so dear.

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At least the ones that we have remaining...

Someone's been brainwashed... and it's not me. *looks at Bugimus*

Bugs, the threat of foreign terrorists has always been there. It's nothing new. It's just that the majority of the American public were completely oblivious to it all. Am I dismissing 9/11? NO! I am simply saying that 9/11 should no longer be used as an excuse for the Bush Administration to fuck up our country.

By the way, it's one thing to actually fight the "war" on anti-American terrorism. It's another to simply state your support.

I'm not sure what brainwashing has to do with this.

I agree the threat has been there for some time and I think the American public was intentionally oblivious because as long as it happened "over there" it wasn't important. I think that was pretty sad actually. The magnitude of the 9/11 attacks were predicted for decades and we just didn't want to do anything about it.

I think it's silly to say that 9/11 is being used as an excuse to f*ck up the country. First of all, it's not being f*cked up. We, as a people, are dealing with the situation and it's evolving all the time. We were hit very hard and, yes, it woke people up and now they want things done to "protect" them. I want things done that will eliminate terrorism on a global level. I do not see myself as someone concerned only with my own personal safety wanting to live a fat unengaged indifferent American consumerist life. I see this as a defining period of history, such that will effect foreign affairs and cultural directions for generations to come.

I have stated several times before in threads concerning this issue that it is easy to criticize current policy. It is. And it is important that current policies are criticized and scrutinized, I acknowledge that completely. What I do object to, however, is people simply using 9/11 as an excuse, to borrow your analogy, to piss on an administration they never liked in the first place. Are you one of those people? Or do you have a better plan for how to deal with the terror threat? I'm certainly open to hearing and considering its merits.

On a final note, I honestly don't understand what you mean by

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By the way, it's one thing to actually fight the "war" on anti-American terrorism. It's another to simply state your support.

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. . : slicePuzzle

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Jestah, agreed. But your scenario is very far-fetched because governments rarely if ever have that much forsight. And even if the forsight is there, the public will is certainly not. So I want to know if it is possible *after* 1933. I also want to point out that the *primary* focus for his rise to power has to be put on the German people themselves. I totally agree that keeping Germany destitute after WWI was a mistake, one corrected after WWII mind you, but Hitler could never have assumed so much power if the citizenry hadn't played along in a big way.

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When countries have fallen into the levels of poverty and chaos Germany fell into following WWI, radical governments usually emerged. Surely those involved in punishing Germany studied history. It certainly was avoidable the problem was, much like today, most leaders thought with their dicks and not their brains.

Jestah

Like Maggie Thatcher and Golda Meir? LOL!!!

. . : slicePuzzle

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I think it's silly to say that 9/11 is being used as an excuse to f*ck up the country.

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It's silly to say what you just said.

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First of all, it's not being f*cked up.

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False. If you would pay attention to history since the Civil War as well as current events, you wouldn't need someone to explain why you are wrong.

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What I do object to, however, is people simply using 9/11 as an excuse, to borrow your analogy, to piss on an administration they never liked in the first place. Are you one of those people? Or do you have a better plan for how to deal with the terror threat? I'm certainly open to hearing and considering its merits.

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I supported the Bush Administration for the first 2 years of its establishment, supported the invasion of Afghanistan, supported the 2nd Gulf War, and the sham called the "War on Terrorism." It was only after the major news coverage of the 2nd Gulf War that I ceased my mental support of the Bush Administration. So no, I liked this administration initially, however, after realizing my error I did more research, consulted more political scientists, and others, and then changed my position. This administration sucks and you're getting fucked whether you want to realize it or not.

As for having a plan, well, whether I do or do not is irrelevant. The same is true for you and most likely the rest of the Asylumites here.

By the way, to "support the troops" is a practically meaningless phrase unless you're in D.C. trying to get Congress to force the troops back home. Obviously, you can't "agree with the troops" as "I support the initiative, etc." typically means. So what you're really saying is "I sure wish the troops would make it home safely." Of course, with the recent scientific study on prayer, prayer is ineffective. Wishful thinking is not going to help our soldiers--soldiers who are very likely to die tomorrow. After all, an American soldier dies everyday in Iraq.

I see, you mean armchair generals as opposed to actual soldiers getting shot at. Yes, I agree on that. We've already agreed that all our discussions here have no direct bearing on the course of world events.

But not having an alternate plan is problematic. It is because if the Dems in this country could get their sh*t in one sock and have a plan, then they would have a chance of actually winning the next election. If the only plan is actually a non-plan based in saying the current plan is no plan, that is not going to win over very many hearts and minds.

I have never stated that I agree with everything this administration is doing. What I have said is that I agree with the basic direction they are taking us. Regarding Iraq, I have wanted us to do something about that before I knew Bush was even going to be a candidate.

I think one of the differences between our opinions on this is that you don't like the fact that governments use half truths, propoganda, shady tactics, basically which all fall under the heading of "politics" to achieve things. It's not pretty, in fact, it stinks to high heaven but it's the best we've got. I've come to terms with that reality. I also recognize it is a "cultural tool". This is how we've decided to do things in the western world and until we have a major cultural transformation (read not gonna happen real soon) this is how it's going to be done.

. . : slicePuzzle

Right... do you realize the U.S. has invaded more countries than all of the countries in the world combined? We're the aggressors. We're invaders. We're not peacekeepers.

That's the problem with humanitarianism. There is no good reason to do things for humanitarian reasons when it does not benefit our group--the United States of America. Humanitarianism as a foreign policy does not work. The humanitarians would have us invade and takeover the world to "make things right" according to their standards of morality.

The best quote to come out of Iraq was from an Iraqi man: "Under Saddam, I had food, but no freedom of speech. Under Bush, I have freedom of speech, but no food... I like food."

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Right... do you realize the U.S. has invaded more countries than all of the countries in the world combined

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Care to share where you pulled that statistic from? Or are we just talking the last 2 years of history?

We are part of the world community and we must make judgement calls as to when to intervene in the affairs of others. I am not comfortable generalizing to the degree you just did. I think we should evaluate each case on its own merits.

Balkans: We acted unilaterally without UN approval to prevent a Muslim population from being "ethnically cleansed" by a Xian population.

Iraq: We acted unilaterally without UN approval to prevent a secular dictator from destabilizing a region that is key to the world's primary energy source and in turn establish a dominoe in hopes of toppling it later to gain an upper hand in the GWOT (I really love that acronym!!!)

Somalia, Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, etc. we could go on and on. Which could be cool but I'm getting tired.

That quote from the Iraqi man is pretty sad. I want him to have food, of course, but Iraq is infinitely better off now than it was under Hussein. They now have hope for a real future. The polls taken there so far show that they are for the most part grateful for this new day and they are beginning to realize that it was a lie to say that we were there to take over. And now that they are coming to that realization they want us to stay until they can adequately quell the remnants of the former regime and protect their borders from the probable influx of foreign fighters.

[edit] typos

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 01-18-2004).]

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Iraq is infinitely better off now than it was under Hussein.

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True, but can the same be said for America? The Patriot Act took a lot away, Patriot Act II has gone underground so to speak... Now, instead of being able to see the ass fucking in one tidy document, we have to scan 100 + bills just to spot the pieces of this dildo.

When all is said and done, the authorities will have an arsenal of laws to subjugate, corral, and silence law abiding citizens... well, they will be citizens until Ashcroft, or whoever else happens to be in charge, decides otherwise. This is what the Framers of the Constitution were trying to avoid.

It is going to take many years, millions of dollars, and many innocent incarcerated citizens, to ferret out all the damage done to our constitution and restore American Freedoms.

This means I will personally have to move my loyalties more towards the left in order to vote the appropriate people into office. I dont imagine any republicans will stand up and oppose Bushes "Patriot Laws". It's a bunch of Orwellian doublespeak. I'm actually pissed. I respected the republican business model... But now... Screw it. It isnt worth all the tea in China if I cant speak my mind without fear of the Sparklett's guy reporting me to the local "Homeland Security Office"(AKA: Rape Freedom Office).

... hmpf, there's more..., but, I'd rather tweak my registry than think about it right now.



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Bleah...

I'm getting the sense you're a bit upset Let's say you did move to the left in protest, would you vote for one of the current Democrat candidates? I've been following their progress lately and I must say, I'm glad I'm not a Dem this election year. The prospects are so grim it would almost drive one to despair. It's not quite as bad as 1996 for the Reps with Dole, but dang close.

. . : slicePuzzle

I cant see myself voting for any of them... But I may take another look at the Libertarian Party. http://www.lp.org/

And this guy says he will actively work to REPEAL the "Patriot Act". http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0402/aaronrusso_prez.html




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Bleah...