Preserved Topic: is sexual orientation a choice? (Page 1 of 3)

this subject was brought up in the "If you move to the US from Africa you're African American right? " thread and so my first post is a continuation of what was said there.

Lunatic:

Is it my opinion that Simon LeVay documented differences in the hypothalamus of homosexual males vs. that of hetrosexual males?

Are the findings of Laura Allen and Roger Gorski regarding the differences they found in the Anterior commissure of the brain my opinion?

Reading studies that refute these findings would go a lot further towards convincing me that homosexuality is a choice than merely using capital letters to emphasise your point of view.

So how about posting a link or two to studies that support your position?

If you need a database of summaries for scientific studies, here is one to get you started:

[Bad URL replaced with good ...] http://tinyurl.com/yth6v

[edit2: Nope no good - try the URL above but UBB adds a space in for no good reason so remove it - vBulletin does the same though. Its here:

12617494,2918374,1 2710825,12597070

so it is fixable]

I'm also curious as to why you would ask if I actually know any anyone with the same sex preference. I do happen to know some people with a same sex preference, but generally speaking I know very little about the sexual preferences of the people around me. Since the sex lives of most of the folks around me don't actually involve me, I figure their preferences are not any of my business.....

I propose that we all choose whether to have sex at all, and with whom we do. But the real question is - Do we choose who we are attracted to, or is that decided by physiological factors?


[This message has been edited by norm (edited 02-08-2004).]

/*Can anyone figure out why the UBB code for my link is messed up? It works when I coppy and paste the URL into a browser....*/

[Emp edit: Fiddling with UBB]

[This message has been edited by norm (edited 02-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 02-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by InI (edited 02-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Wes (edited 02-08-2004).]

Of course sexual orientation is not a choice. You can't help who you fall in love with.

Jestah

i think the term "choice" makes it seem like its entirely up to the individual which i don't believe, tho i don't think that homosexuality is completely genetically predetermined either. from people i've heard speak, things i've read, etc., there's usually some sort of childhood factor like an abusive or emotionally distant parent, repressed emotions in some family situation, etc., and when that's combined with an individual who might have effeminate qualities and they end up discovering that they're gay.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I think the answer is "yes and no".

InI puts it very well,

quote:

---

So, who you are is not completely a choice: your were born with mental predispositions,
and the ability to make choices and evolve.

---

I believe we are born with physical traits which includes predisposition to certain behavior. But at the same time, we're the only species we know of that can override our biological urges. I could learn to love men just as another man could learn to love women *if* we *decided* to do so.

Our sexuality is alterable. The fact that some choose to feed the predilections they were born with and never bother to change them does not mean they cannot. It just means they don't see any need to do so.

. . : slicePuzzle

I prefer to stay well away from this particular topic, but I've just gotta give this link a burl
http://tinyurl.com/yth6v

Edit by krets: Added tinyurl.

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 02-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by kretsminky (edited 02-09-2004).]

The URL: http://tinyurl.com/yth6v

(use tinyURL. It's good in cases like this.)

"I believe we are born with physical traits which includes predisposition to certain behavior. But at the same time, we're the only species we know of that can override our biological urges. I could learn to love men just as another man could learn to love women *if* we *decided* to do so."

Could you, even with a female, just say to yourself "I'm going to fall in love with that woman", and then you do?

All the gay people I've spoken with all say the same, it's not a choice. It's like liking spinach; you simply do, or you don't. If you don't like eating cauliflower you still can eat it, but you can't learn to *like* eating it.

What you say is a nifty theory, but it's a theory alltogether. Don't you think that gay people have tried to become straight, that they prayed to become so? That they did everything they could, to become "normal"?

I'd like to see you trying to fall in love with a guy. Or, failing that, try *loving* a kind of food you now hate. Try haggis.

And for an article about trying to reform gay people: try this one. http://www.umanitoba.ca/manitoban/20011128/features_index.shtml
If you don't have time to read it all, just read the part under "Ex-gay controversies".

Sadly, I coudn't find any success rate figures for "ex-gay" treatments. They themselves claim to have a 30% to 40% success rate.

This is not scientific, just anecdotal... The gay men I have known seem to be split. Some say they were born that way and nothing could have made them prefer women. They knew they were gay from the time they were children. Others say it was a conscious choice, like my cousin. I can remember him liking females when he was a younger teenager but after the age of 18 or so, he called himself gay and only had male partners from then on. Personally, I think there are varying degrees of homosexuality and bisexuality and this is perhaps where the choice factor comes into play.

I have read about homosexuality having a hormonal cause (in the mother's womb) and I believe this is an area of current study.


edit to fix very silly mistake

[This message has been edited by Amerasu (edited 02-09-2004).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I think everyone should use a hard return ¬
¬
¬
The broken UBB at the top makes this thread ¬
Bleahhh!

______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

InI: I didn't mean it against you... I suppose I responded a bit overzealously to bugimus.

Hope no one minds my replacing the original link with the tiny one. Hated the horizontal scrolling.

Thanks for fixing the messed up link. There was nothing in the Asylum FAQ about TinyURL, and I have never encountered this problem before.

I've just never heard "Norm this won't work. Your...Link...is too long."

Back to the original subject. I agree that we can alter our sexuality. After all left-handed people can be
conditioned to do things right handed. But it is not their natural behavoir.

I have yet to visit mahjqa's link on reforming gay people, but the first thing that springs
to mind is 'Why should we?' I would really be much more interested in reforming people who
listen to Polka or who voted for Bush....

Fig:
if you do a liitle more reading on the subject, I think you will find that the majority of people
with a same sex preference did not have any events or enviromental factors out of the
ordinary in their formative years. I also have to mention that most of the gay men
I have known have not been effeminate. Perhaps we just tend to notice the ones who are because
they stand out as different.

[This message has been edited by norm (edited 02-08-2004).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I just sum it up with 2 words: Mental Illness.

I have known quite a few gay people, and something many of them have in common is substance abuse, specifically cocaine. Many also have disfunctional backgrounds as well. Now, in todays Liberal thinking world, Mental illness is treated as "Alternate Lifestyle."

On another note: Why do many gay men talk more like women than most women? This aspect of homosexuality always seemed very shallow to me. It is an act all the way, and I have no use for people who need to act their way through life.

mahjqa, I didn't think your reply was overzealous. You said,

quote:

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Could you, even with a female, just say to yourself "I'm going to fall in love with that woman", and then you do?

---

That depends. In some cases, there is no doubt that I could. But the idea of "falling in love" is a very misleading one. Some people wait for the "magic" or the chemistry to kick in and then call that love. But when you follow that method, you can fall in and out of love and never have any control over it. A lot of people do that and I am sorry they do.

There are also a lot of people in this world who don't choose their spouse but have the family do it for them. Quite many of them love each other just fine and don't have the slightest problem with the arrangement. That is because they don't believe love is something that comes and goes like the wind. They believe love is a choice; a choice to commit to another individual and to put their interests above their own.

What I'm saying is that *IF* we want to behave differently than our feelings dictate, we can. I believe many people don't see any reason to change their behavior and so they don't. Simple. But if they ever wanted to do so, only their will would stand in their way.

quote:

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What you say is a nifty theory, but it's a theory alltogether.

---

With all due respect, so is saying you are born gay. We just don't have enough data to make that call yet.

quote:

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I'd like to see you trying to fall in love with a guy. Or, failing that, try *loving* a kind of food you now hate. Try haggis.

---

Well, my wife may have other plans on that first challenge and I would hate to have to explain that to my little daughter who seems to enjoy having her mommy and daddy there for her BUT I have made a major change in what I eat and *like* to eat.

5 years ago, I completely gave up eating meat. That includes fish and chicken. I have rarely craved eating meat since that time and, in fact, the smell and taste of meat has become repulsive to me. How is this possible? What biological imperative was engaged in my person to bring about this change? Well, I don't think it was. I have long thought that it was wrong to eat animals if there were plenty of other sources of food available. My conscience spoke, and I decided to follow.

So I really believe our sexuality is on a very similar level as our tastes for food. Given enough reason and will, we can be anything we choose.

. . : slicePuzzle

This is a great time to get opinions about Ellen DeGeneres & Anne Heche. What was that all about? How does that fit into your view of homosexuality and heterosexuality?

. . : slicePuzzle

quote: On another note: Why do many gay men talk more like women than most women? This aspect of homosexuality always seemed very shallow to me. It is an act all the way, and I have no use for people who need to act their way through life.

Isnt this playing towards stereotypes?
You cant help the way you talk- and even if you could, no one is free of acts. There is very nearly always (I cannot speak for everyone) some sort of front people put on, when they interact with other people. Would you want to shower in front of someone? Burp? Its similar- we all are conscious of others' opinions of ourselves.

About whether it is a choice or not- doesnt it depend on the situation? You can't help who you love, but you can state I AM GAY or I AM STRAIGHT and make exceptions, correct? Just because you fall in love with someone who is blonde and athletic doesnt mean it'll happen again.
It seems like a volatile situation. But can you pass judgement on anothers situation without being them? Or deny them civil rights?

But how do you really know that it is an act? I happen to know some very naturally effeminite guys. Some who are gay, and some who aren't (and some who aren't too sure). They happen to act and talk like women, and it isn't an act. It's just them being themselves.

That's the kind of thing that really gets my goat. That there are people in this world who can't just accept that people are who they are, and there's really nothing you cna do about it, so...y'know...build a bridge...get the fuck over it.

If I believe something to be wrong, I don't have to accept it chief. I know some people think it'd be nice if everyone thought the same in this predominently liberal world, but where's the fun in that? Without the few conservatives who frequent this board with their opposing views, I think you'd all be preaching to the choir. I am about as far right as they come, and you should be thankful I am here to give my views and piss you off.

About the speech lisp, show me that it's not an act rather than telling me how unaccepting I am. Isn't that the point here? Maybe I will, as you say, "get the fuck over it," when I am shown that I am wrong. As I see it, there is no way in hell that a man can be more feminine than a female, unless it is an ACT.

And there really is nothing to get the fuck over anyways, it is not like I lose sleep over it or anything, we are having a discussion and I expressed my views. Is that a problem? If it is, then you yourself are not very accepting.

To me homosexuality is a mental illness, unnnatural and disgusting, and I will never accept people of the same sex getting it on. I will accept them as individuals, but I do not have to accept what goes on in their bedrooms. But hey, as long as I ain't there, I don't have to.

One last thing, what civil rights have gays been denied? The right to marry? WTF? Maybe I am missing something here. I really wish I was a minority or "repressed" person, so every time something didn't go my way I could throw a tantrum too.

Jestah:

There is a science to "love" and love can be controlled. Love is a choice as far as the ideological concept of "free will" is concerned.

WebMD: What's So Great About Kissing?

Regarding homosexuality...

quote:

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The taboo against homosexuality is especially interesting. There is no generally accepted biological explanation of homosexuality and superficially it does not appear to be adaptive. Nevertheless, evidence is accumulating that there is an inherited predisposition for homosexuality. Assuming this is the case, the taboos of the past would, paradoxically, have favoured the survival of these genes by forcing the people who carried them, against their wishes, to marry and have children.

This suggests an interesting prediction for the future. As horizontal transmission increases the taboo should lose its power and so can be expected to disappear, as indeed it is doing in many societies. Homosexuals are then free to have sex with other homosexuals, to have long-term relationships with their own sex, and not to have children at all. The short-term effect is much more overt homosexual behaviour and acceptance of that behaviour by everyone, but the long-term effect may be fewer genes for homosexuality.

-- Susan Blackmore, The Meme Machine, p. 137

---

If you haven't studied memetics, this may or may not make immediate sense to you, but don't despair: buy the referenced book.

quote:

---

Fig:
if you do a liitle more reading on the subject, I think you will find that the majority of people
with a same sex preference did not have any events or enviromental factors out of the
ordinary in their formative years. I also have to mention that most of the gay men
I have known have not been effeminate. Perhaps we just tend to notice the ones who are because
they stand out as different.

---

i suppose there's different theories (and i'd say that's actually obvious from this discussion) but i've actually heard a number of stories who didn't realize the emotional things they'd been thru til later on. one guy, for example, who's father left him and his mother when he was about 10. he later realized that he never grieved or cared and just shut those emotions off completely. not necessarily a traumatic event, but definitely a formative one when it comes to emotions. and no, not all are effeminate, that is a stereotype, but at the same time the majority that i've met, been friends with, and worked with (working in retail and design often lends itself to an alternative mindset) the majority do seem to lean that way.

quote:

---

What you say is a nifty theory, but it's a theory alltogether. Don't you think that gay people have tried to become straight, that they prayed to become so? That they did everything they could, to become "normal"?

---

so do the people i know personally that HAVE changed not count? or were they not gay enough to start with? i do think it comes down to a faith issue and that God can change a person.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

quote:

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i do think it comes down to a faith issue and that God can change a person.

---

Wow! The ignorance displayed by fig here is uncanny, rather very human. Homosexuality has little to do with religion, "God", and/or your version of morality that you want to ram down nontheistical throats. The same can be said of marriage. Marriage, while traditionally religious, is simply a legal union (read: contract) that provides certain rights and benefits to those in the agreement. Marriage is not required to be processed in a church.

A declaration such as Fig's is equivalent to this statement: "All nontheists are gay."

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 02-09-2004).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I believe we've covered this issue once not so long ago in here


Oh, well... My reiterated view on things:

Homo/Bi/hetero-sexuality is not a choice. Since it's about attraction (basic need) it's far to low down on the Maslow hierarchy basic to be a chosen treat.

However, you can choose whether you act upon those feelings or not.
(but the gay people I know have told me that they did not feel very good while oppressing their true feelings)

Bugs:
I don't quite agree with your analogy to food.
One major difference is that in a relationship there's two parties involved.
Imagine being gay and trying to choose differently by dating women. I can imagine that one would try to date women that was as appealing as possible despite the preference to men.

Now, in order for a relationship to work out, it has to be a mutual engagement.
I can imagine not many gay men are willing to try to deceive a woman to believing that she is loved, just to see if it would work out. And if they do, they are arrogant bastards. Period.

In your example, imagine having to seduce a cabbage to try to kick the fish-eating habit

Ramasax:

quote:

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To me homosexuality is a mental illness, unnnatural and disgusting..

---

Well... to me bigots with your attitude borders on the very same definition. All IMHO

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

On homosexual bisexuality and other stuff...

quote:

---

Interestingly, there are few, if any, taboos against female masturbation. Recent research shows that, though women masturbate less often than men, many masturbate once a week or more throughout most of their adult life (R. R. Baker 1996). The lack of a taboo makes sense because generally women cannot increase the number of their offspring by having more sex, so from this point of view it does not matter whether they masturbate or not.

The taboo against homosexuality follows the same logic. Most homosexuals are at least partly bisexual and can, with strongly wielded taboos, be persuaded to marry and have children, to whom they will pass on the taboo. Similarly, taboos against any kind of sexual practice that does not involve insemination can spread, including those against using birth control. Taboos against adultery work rather differently. Brodie (1996) suggests that it is in every man's genetic interest to persuade other men not[ to commit adultery while doing so themselves. Thus both the anti-adultery memes and hypocrisy spread together.

Finally, there are many religions that make use of sex to spread themselves. A religion that promotes large families will, assuming vertical memetic transmission, produce more babies to grow up in that religion than one that promotes small families. Religious memes therefore become an important manipulator of genetic success. Catholicism's taboo against birth control has been extremely effective in fillingt he world with millions of Catholics who bring up their children to believe that condoms and the pill are evil, and that God wants them to have as many children as possible.

-- Susan Blackmore, The Meme Machine, p. 135

---

If you haven't studied memetics, this may or may not make immediate sense to you, but don't despair: buy the referenced book.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I'd like to make one thing clear, Bugimus: you said "so is saying you are born gay"

I am not gay. At least, the last time I checked I wasn't. The reason that I keep reiterating my point of view is a personal one.

More than two years ago, I met a girl. We became the best of friends, and after some time she told me she was a lesbian. I didn't have any problems with that. Over time, we got closer, and after some time she confided that she had fallen in love with me. Sounds confusing, doesn't it? Imagine how she must have felt. I loved her, I still do, even. We share the same interests, We can talk about anything together, our opinions differ on some things, but we respect eachother, maybe even because of that.
We also got closer, physically. That's where she found out that the male body was something she just didn't want to have or do anything with. Just like you, certified heterosexual, would be repulsed by doing anything remotely sexual with a male (not even mentioning your wife and daughter), she was repulsed by doing anything sexual with a guy.
And this would be the girl I'd see myself marrying with. And I would be the guy she'd take a bullet for.

We tried, she tried, and she couldn't be "changed" in any way.

To say that this sucks would be the understatement of the century. We're still together, but 'only' as friends.

This is my main cause for believing that homosexuality, whatever the cause may be, is unchangeable.

I've talked to other gay people, who have similiar stories. I understand that you can just claim this is 'hearsay', just like your stories about about gay people whe were changed.

The article I linked had some pretty awful descriptions how people were "changed" into heterosexuals. Alex's change into a good person in "A Clockwork Orange" comes to mind.

Edit: blah. Synax was right, the issue *was* already covered in the thread he linked. My post's even almost the same there.

[This message has been edited by mahjqa (edited 02-09-2004).]

mahjqa, I knew you were not gay, I was speaking generally in that statement.

I meant that gays being born gay has not been proven, it is still theoretical. It has not been disproven either. We simply don't know the answer to that question yet.

I don't think you should base the answer to this question on one case you exprienced first hand. I know that many gay people say they were always gay and that may well be the case. But there are those who have become gay, there are those who have become straight, and there are those who continue to go both ways.

I am sorry things didn't work out with you and your dear one.

. . : slicePuzzle

Well, the point I'm trying to get across here is that the people who are gay know more about it than those who aren't.

I disagree. This is about sexuality, not being gay. We are all sexual creatures.

. . : slicePuzzle

quote:

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Well... to me bigots with your attitude borders on the very same definition. All IMHO

---

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

So, because I think homosexual sex is unnatural I am a bigot? I said I don't agree with the lifestyle, I never said I did not tolerate it. You guys are unbelieveable. You only hear what you want to hear.

quote:

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I disagree. This is about sexuality, not being gay. We are all sexual creatures.

---

I disagree with your disagreement. We're all humans, but you don't know how it feels to menstruate. Or how it feels to be a schizophrenic. Or to be a genius. Or to be a hinduist.

[This message has been edited by mahjqa (edited 02-09-2004).]

quote:

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There is a science to "love" and love can be controlled. Love is a choice as far as the ideological concept of "free will" is concerned.

---

There certainly is a science to kissing or any other stimulation of the body, however love is very different then just stroking a favorite body part.

Jestah

quote:

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Wow! The ignorance displayed by fig here is uncanny, rather very human. Homosexuality has little to do with religion, "God", and/or your version of morality that you want to ram down nontheistical throats. The same can be said of marriage. Marriage, while traditionally religious, is simply a legal union (read: contract) that provides certain rights and benefits to those in the agreement. Marriage is not required to be processed in a church.

A declaration such as Fig's is equivalent to this statement: "All nontheists are gay."

---

so because i believe that a person's sexuality is linked to faith i'm ignorant? that's interesting. a person's choices with regards to sexuality are most certainly linked to their religious beliefs, it influences quite a bit whether they have sex before marriage, with mulitple partners, or engage in a variety of other activities depending on what they believe is wrong or not. seems like a logical conclusion that a person's faith, no matter what it would be, would have a definite bearing on their sexuality in some respects. we've all see examples of where having faith in something, anything actually, can bring amazing results.

whatever the case, the fact that i believe homosexuality to be in some respects a faith issue is pretty irrelevant. i stated a fact, that i know personally individuals who's sexual preference has been changed, a change their attribute to God. knowing how some religious groups are i don't doubt that there have been "forced" conversions as some mentioned and i'm sure those were rather unsuccessful. i don't have firsthand knowledge of people's preferences changing outside of that belief systen (tho i'd imagine there are examples). how they've changed doesn't seem to really matter, the fact that they have at all would simply seem to refute pieces of the "you're born that way and can't change anything" theory.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

I'm curious Fig, are you able to tell what religious preferences a person has by knowing they had pre-marital sex?

Jestah

quote:

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There certainly is a science to kissing or any other stimulation of the body, however love is very different then just stroking a favorite body part.

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Not necessarily. All emotions are linked to chemical reactions in the body and in the brain. I'm reasonably confident that the future contains the equation for "love."

Oh, InI, I don't like your bitching and whining. Would you please stop? Are you going to do so? Doubtful.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 02-09-2004).]

Fig:
I agree that religious memes do influence society, however, your previous claim that "it all comes down to faith and 'God'" is explicitly devoid of all reason. Like I said, your previous claim was like stating, "All nontheists are gay; likewise, all homosexuals are godless." If you didn't mean that, I apologize for bringing attention to your display of ignorance, but it was justified.