Preserved Topic: Why?

Why do all browsers suck? I can't figure it, but this seemed like a worthwhile forum area, we all run into this. I was able to flesh out that area right away just by transferring some relavent threads in, it *is* a good topic. My take on the subject is just that, all browser DO suck, dammit! IE5 on the PC is winning the war right now as the browser that "sucks least", but I like my Mac! There, it's the higher versions of Netscape, 4.6 to 4.72 for me. IE5 for the Mac is OK for testing stuff, but it's just too ugly for everyday use, stupid boxes around everything clicked, and a laughable version of what they call "iMac-style" glass effects! Netscape and it's failure to specify frame sizes is just too depressing, and some of the problems on the PC end are pretty serious, I hardly ever use it at work.<P>As for speed of processing, my stuff all works better on my Mac on Netscape, and best on the PC in IE5. Since more folks use PCs, Netscape gets more bashing than IE. What are your takes on the subject? Which browser *does* suck least? Enquiring minds want to know!<P>
Your pal, -doc-<P>----- Doctor Thaddeus Ozone --------- "Specialization is for insects"---

Absolutely! It's too bad everyone can't see how much cooler your stuff looks on a Mac using Netscape...I've seen 'em on both formats using both browsers and Wow! It's like the difference between Guiness & Budwieser! If ya know what I mean!
Some people won't.
It's too bad someone doesn't put thier heads together and come up with something really good for both formats....Or is somebody?

The really sucky thinga bout this is that there is no quick fix. Even if the W3C did what it is supposed to do and set a standard, it would be years before this became adopted completely by the public. I gotta say I always used IE and I thnk IE5 is the better browser right now for the PC (the PC is my desktop of choice though I use a g4 at work for graphics work and some QA) IE also has the better DOM for DHTML right now. Making everything cross platform is a pain in my ass. We'll see what Mozilla is able to do with future releases of the Netscape browser the whole open source thing can definately be helpfull for it's development however it's been almost 2 years (I think) and they still don't have a viable browser.<P>**sigh**
My 2 cents

Matter of opinion I suppose......I find Netscape more attractive all the way around. It's got problems I'll admit...but they don't bother me near as much as IE problems. Ugly & Slow come to mind.....IMHO.....But I think Doc has the right attitude...He knows!

Ugh, no way is Netscape better (on a PC). They have more bugs than I can count.<P>Maybe my opinion is somewhat influenced by my recent attempts at DHTML scrolling...

I will agree that building cross browser and cross platform is a pain. However it needs to be done.
With that said designing for cross browser sucks because both browsers allow for sloppy coding, and they also will use there own HTML, DHTML, JavaScript, and CSS tags, while completely ignoring other tags put in place by the W3C. But before I delve to deep into this I would like to point out that, if it were not for Netscape ignoring W3C guidelines, and creating it's own tags, we would not have Tables, Frames, JavaScript or even the annoying 'blink' tag, as well as several others. Back before MSIE was even a browser issue, let alone a browser, it was Netscape and Mosaic. With Netscape leading the charge. (Admittedly Mosaic was around way before Netscape.)
Netscape used to be a very good browser, however you cannot keep the same development team on the same project all the time, people get bored and will look for other pastures. Additionally you cannot compete in the software industry today without keeping an eye on Microsoft. These were two of the major reasons for Netscape's downfall, and perhaps even death. (The later will be a wait and see option.) Netscape helped to forge the virtual world we now live and work on. Personally I think that Netscape's biggest contribution was JavaScript with efforts from Sun Microsystems LiveScript became JavaScript. Were it not for Netscape we would be having to create ActiveX controls for pretty mouseovers, and little clocks. I shudder to think of what might have been, had we went that way. Can you imagine creating DHTML completely with ActiveX rather than JavaScript? While it is true you can use ActiveX in our HTML and DHTML, but who really does this in place of JavaScript?
But, enough about the past. As I said before; designing for cross browsers sucks because both browsers allow for sloppy coding. That does not mean that you cannot make an HTML document that works in both browsers and is HTML 4.01 or XHTML1.0 compliant. However you can make an HTML document that work in both browsers and is NOT HTML 4.01 or XHTML1.0 compliant. Were each and every browser available today able to show only HTML 4.01 or XHTML1.0 compliant documents, we would not have the cross browser issue. And most people who make personal web pages would not have 'Come see the GoldFish!' or 'The Brown Food Website'. And this is because we are a society who says I don't need to read the instructions, and then later we complain because we cannot program our VCR. (I'm just as to blame for this as everyone else.)
What Netscape and Microsoft are doing is thinking for us. They are allowing for sloppy code, and browser specific tags. And they do this because those personal websites are much more abundant than semi-professional and professional designers. They are catering to the masses, because there is more money there. What they are also trying to do is to shape our views of the internet by developing browser specific tags. This, while it may be annoying, is a good thing. We are designers. We can pick and choose those tags we like and those tags that make life better for us. If they are used enough the W3C will add them to the next spec document. This is a good thing. However it can work against us also. By using browser specific tags we end up alienating part of our audience. And we add to the demise of a browser. I don't want to see MSIE or Netscape disappear. For innovation we need competition. However we are not getting that message to either Microsoft or Netscape. Perhaps Mozilla will pull a rabbit out of the hat and give Microsoft a run for it's money, but as the battle rages on, I begin to doubt it. I don't like the idea of having a 'Microsoft Only' internet, just like I don't like the idea of a Coca-Cola only reality.
What the future really does hold, I've no idea. I will go out on a limb and share my thoughts. I think that we are going to see HTML left behind for the more strict XHTML, as more and more items (other than computers) go online. I think we are not going to be worrying about cross appliance, but rather does it look good on T.V., Cell Phone, Palm, Computer, etc.. Cross platform will cease to be an issue with these items in mind. I really believe that unless we a major breakthrough on the part of Mozilla Netscape will go the way of the Dodo. And that is truly sad. However the browser issue will always be there. Remember that it has now been ruled illegal to tie a browser to an operating system. So for every appliance that has an OS and can go online, there will be a new browser. What do you want to bet that the Palm browser, and the Microsoft Version of the Palm browser aren't going to work the same? We are in simple days here, more headaches, other than cross browser, lie ahead.
Of course this is only my own thoughts. And should be taken as such.
<P>-I'm not a complete idiot,
there are some parts missing.

Whew! I'm outa breath just reading that one!
But great observations!!! Who knows what the future will hold?

Wow! That was a good post. You're right on the money, all the things that have been headaches for us are also the things that pushed the technology. I remember my first big hit on the award circuit was when I made the "Netscape Hall of Shame" as one of their top three sites. We took a lot of flack back then for creating code that wasn't 100% spec, but it worked, and did marvelous things! (For the time, that is.) <P>What will happen in the next phase, as we migrate to new and unusual devices? The traditional (sic) web browser will still lead the charge, the traffic is here in numbers that will take years to be eclipsed by other methods of viewing content. How many of us are WAP compliant? My mobile phone still just does telephone calls, dark ages, eh?<P>
Your pal, -doc-<P>----- Doctor Thaddeus Ozone --------- "Specialization is for insects"---

If i hear the word "WAP" one more time, i will scream. its like a huge issue here coz everyone in israel has at least 2-3 cellular phones... grrr so many silly commericials for wap im gonna puke. i want it to be a profanity in the forum hehe<P>Never...oh ya know yada yada burning dog.
Rend<P>

wow, so much to read, so much to say. Well, here's my take:
I HATE netscape. I hate the way it looks. I hate the way it takes 18 times longer to launch than IE. I hate the icons it uses. I hate the way it doesn't *really* support frames. I hate the way it changes things on resize. I hate the way that little hand looks. I hate the way it doesn't support the "hover" thing.
Most of all, I hate the fact that I used to like it better but now it sucks so much, and I'm stuck using Microshaft which is run by a "man" who is a combination of Kermit the Frog and the Grinch who stole Xerox...<P>So, Ok, now that I got that off of my chest....I'll go quietly.
Didn't read all of your post yet F1....I'll finish reading it in the morning when my eyes focus a little better : )<P>What care I how time advances? I am drinking Ale today. -- Edgar Allen Poe

Interesting! I can't stand the way IE looks....among other things....Do you use a PC? My guess is yes. I haven't heard too much of that from Mac users.

Well, I can appoach this from a viewpoint of someone who uses both Netscape and IE and both windows and Macintosh. The simple fact is that Netscape *is* ugly as hell on the PC, form elements are way too big, lots of small details just suck. IE and Macintosh, same thing, ugly and stupid as hell. The shame of this is that this will just reinforce stereotypes, Windows users like IE best, not because they're corporate drones, but because it's better. Macintosh users are not deranged, Netscape really does look and work better on the Mac. IE's biggest advantage is it's speed re-drawing a page from cache, it even works better on the mac end, but crashes like *all* the time. Here's a little tidbit on the PC, maybe someone else can confirm this for me. I have two PC's, one had Netscape 4.7 installed first, and later got IE5.0, and both work fine. Another PC had IE5 installed first, and then Netscape 4.7. Netscape won't work at all well on that machine, several fundemental things are broken. Other than the order of installation, the machines are identical. Conspiracy? Hard to say. (On another note, MSDN loads a different style sheet for netscape, with all of the fonts tweaked to be unreadable. The download section works fine, though. ;-)<P>
Your pal, -doc-<P>----- Doctor Thaddeus Ozone --------- "Specialization is for insects"---

Like DL-44, I use a PC (333mhz Pentium Pro). However, unlike DL-44, my OS is Win95 OSR2 - I've got 98, but prefer running on 95.
IE5 was my first browser loaded, I loaded NS 4.7 about 3 months or so ago to check my coding. IE5 is my preferred browser for the reasons you've stated. NS for me is clunky, slow to load (5 x's longer than IE) and can sometimes just hang up. When it does work properly, it's ok and worth the effort. I use NS more for searches mainly because the search results seem to be better (if that makes sense). However, I get kinda annoyed over the silly differences between them like NS deciding that it doesn't like my colors and returns something different....kinda strange that.

I saw somewhere....a new browser...<P>Damn tho, i cannot remember where it was..

The Free Sun Star office suite supports its own browser. I don't know much about it but it does load way fast compared to IE5

Ever wonder if theres some alternate universe out there where the browsers dont suck but the users do? What if the browsers were compatiable with all types of users perfectly but the users could only use one browser and if they happened to look at something in the other browser they would look ugly and work slow? Or not ... whichever.

Jestah
Jestah91@aol.com
ICQ - 77252449

In all seriousness, I thought about boycotting all browsers until they made the perfect one, but then i realized I would hafta go outside, make friends, and do normal things a 17 yr old kid would do, and Im just not ready for that sort of life. Wait that wasnt serious, nevermind. Call me crazy but for some odd reason I like Netscape and Im on a PC. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/confused.gif"> Is there something in the water in Long Island that makes me feel this way? I just saw on the news that the Brookhaven Lab discovered Uranium 232 in the soil, which is like the most radioactive stuff in the world ... at least thats what my mommie says. Maybe this is causing my weirdness of late?

Jestah
Jestah91@aol.com
ICQ - 77252449

How can anyone like Netscape (on a pc)
I work as a web programmer and I find it almoust imposible to make a website quicky that works in both browsers and it is always Netscape´s fault I say "Netscape down in flames" if there was only explorer life would be sweeet <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

I like IE 5.0 on my PC, though I hate Microshaft. They bugger every little piece of code they do. Bil Gates should have had his hands cut off the moment he said "I want to be a programmer'. Hmmm...I wonder...if they did do an amalgimated browser, what would they call it? Net Explorer, or InterScape? what's your vote?


Sex is evidence that God has a sense of humour. - Elie Oberdury

I have to agree with delphi, there's been only a couple things that don't seem to be real logical about the scripting in IE, but when it comes to Netscape, it's all over the place. At least the percentage of people using Netscape seems to be going down.

There is a lot going on in these posts, and a lot of insight in to what the future could be. In the past i enjoyed netscape version 3.0 (it was the green one <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif"> ) But when i took the next versions, i was unhappy and switched to the lighter internet explorer and have been there ever since. I also noticed that many popular html editing programs and editors use the IE engine for loading webpages. Obviously a program by microsoft would include this feature (Frontpage preview) Just wondering if anyone else has used similar programs?
I guess we are all waiting for a release that would uniform the appearance of our code, whatever language it may be.
I don't think that activeX and Javascript can be compared in functionality, only because microsoft did create "vbscript" the lite client processed language that has many of the similar functions.
Open source might not be a bad idea, but would it really create a standard, or allow for more discrepancies and headaches for developers like us?
I may be speaking for myself, but i am always in a learning state, especially with resources like docOzone, so i wouldn't really mind learning an entirely new language to create web pages.
Does anyone care?

Fares Rihani
frihani@hotmail.com
http://www.rihani.com
"For one word a man is often deemed to be wise, and for one word he is often deemed to be foolish. We should be careful indeed what we say." - Confucious

[This message has been edited by frihani (edited 29-06-2000).]

I'm on a PC, I absolutely can't stand Netscape. It's terribly slow, ugly, and.........well it just sucks.

<vent>

I hate how Netscape handles (or doesn't) style sheets and tables. It takes Netscape WAY longer to render a table than IE, and you have to add all kinds of extra code if you want your site to look the same in NS as it does in IE.

</vent>

I read an article in the last week that said IE was at 89% market share and growing.

Are you guys still attempting cross browser compatability?

Pat Richard
Web weenie
http://www.gurusnetwork.com
ICQ 23113317

11% is a lot of people. Especially when it comes to commerce.