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butcher Paranoid (IV) Inmate From: New Jersey, USA Insane since: Oct 2000	posted 12-09-2000 17:08 Hi guys,....umm....err.... this is so embarrassing. I want to start coding sites by hand,(been using Dreamweaver). Can anyone or all of you give me any tricks for saving keystrokes, or any tips(production oriented or otherwise) for saving what little sanity I have left. There's a cold beer in it for all replies. Thanks in advance.
DL-44 Maniac (V) Inmate From: under the bed Insane since: Feb 2000	posted 12-09-2000 17:40 My best advice is to a text editor with color-coding support for html. I think I would go insane without colorcoding. A good example of this (if you use a PC) is eNotepad, which you can find at http://www.edisys.com/ Unfortunatley it's not free, but it is very cheap (last I knew under $20) and you can use the fully functioning demo for 30 days. Other than that it's a matter of organizing your workspace -- lay the code out logically, so that seperate elements are visibly seperated. Indent nested bits of code, add comments as you go so that when you have to go back and fix something (trust me, you will!!!) you know exactly where you need to go.
mr.maX Maniac (V) Mad Scientist From: Belgrade, Serbia Insane since: Sep 2000	posted 12-09-2000 17:52 Butcher, my best advice would be to use MAX's HTML Beauty++ ME to do all your coding work. It is definitively one of the best FREEWARE HTML editors (and I'm not just saying this, because I've created it <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">. Oh, I almost forgot, here's the url: http://www.max.co.yu/htmlbeauty/
DL-44 Maniac (V) Inmate From: under the bed Insane since: Feb 2000	posted 12-09-2000 22:19 Gonna check that out max <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif"> just to clarify, what I meant was that whatever you use, look for colorcoding of the text. For instance, the mine is set up, all the actual tags are blue. attributes are bold black. anything in quotes is red. anything within comment tags is green. etc.... makes trouble shooting and updating so much easier than if everything's black <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">
butcher Paranoid (IV) Inmate From: New Jersey, USA Insane since: Oct 2000	posted 12-10-2000 01:30 Thanks guys, That sound like great advice DL, I can't wait to design something new so I can try it out. Hey Max, thanks for the download. I haven't been able to look at it in-depth, but from what I read on your site, boy does it sound great! Soon as I try it out I'll let you know.
JKMabry Maniac (V) Inmate From: out of a sleepy funk Insane since: Aug 2000	posted 12-10-2000 19:41 http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/stories/info/0,,0013DH,.html Download that sucka, it's excellent, got a little review there if you wanna read up on it.
mr.maX Maniac (V) Mad Scientist From: Belgrade, Serbia Insane since: Sep 2000	posted 12-10-2000 22:29 Well... MAX's HTML Beauty++ ME is better! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif"> mr.maX
OpticBurn Paranoid (IV) Inmate From: Lower City, Iest, Lower Felda Insane since: Sep 2000	posted 12-11-2000 11:14 What text editor topic would be complete without a bbedit post? bbedit rocks your world, especially the nifty read/write from an ftp server.
delphi Bipolar (III) Inmate From: Iceland Insane since: May 2000	posted 12-11-2000 11:45 If you want a really good program you should use 1st page (can be found at tucows.com) it´s a lot like Homesite and it´s free.
butcher Paranoid (IV) Inmate From: New Jersey, USA Insane since: Oct 2000	posted 12-11-2000 12:26 For anyone following this thread, the link that JK gave a couple of posts up, is a link to download 1st Page. Just letting everyone know to save you some time if you want to check it out.
bitdamaged Maniac (V) Mad Scientist From: 100101010011 <-- right about here Insane since: Mar 2000	posted 12-11-2000 16:04 Heres a couple of things FIrst if you start writing JS save all your code. Somewhere, you will always find it helpful if you can re-use the same thing Also I have a default "template" that I use all the time. It's not much but If I need to put something together it's easier to not have to put in the opening <html> tags eveytime. Here is the code for that. <html> <head> <title> ..ooOO[ PROTOTYPE ]OOoo.. </title> <script> function init(){ } </script> <style type="text/css"> #testDIV {position:absolute; left:10; top:100; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; text-align:justify; color:#000000; visibility:visible; z-index:0;} a { color: #15068A;} a:hover { color: #CC0000; text-decoration: underline} body {font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; text-align:justify; border: 1px solid #000000; overflow: hidden; margin: 0pt;} </style> </head> <body BGCOLOR="#336699" LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 onLoad="init()"> <div id="testDIV"> this is a test </div> <!-- Generic Table starter <table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0> <tr> <td> <td> </tr> </table> --> </body> </html> [This message has been edited by bitdamaged (edited 12-11-2000).]
butcher Paranoid (IV) Inmate From: New Jersey, USA Insane since: Oct 2000	posted 12-11-2000 18:16 Thanks Bitdamaged, that's great advice. Anyone have any tips on file and project organization? until now my 'WYSIWYG' has done this for me, and as I've learned since coming to this forum, It's definitely better to learn from you guys and your experience, than from my own stupid mistakes. BTW, Mr. Max, that's a very impressive piece of software you have created, Thank you. The one JK suggested was also very good. They both seem to be very intuitive to use even before reading any of the documentation. They both have extensive features, nice split window setups, and a quick preview tab to quickly go back and forth from code to page view. To all who are looking, check both of these out.
DocOzone Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there... From: Stockholm, Sweden Insane since: Mar 1994	posted 12-11-2000 21:29 OK, as mentioned, a good editor with some basic color coding is essential. BBEdit for the Mac and HomeSite for the PC are my choices, typically. Another thing that is too useful for words is a good search and replace function, hopefully with a "global" parameter too. Sometimes you'll find yourself where you need to change one specific line that's in every page, and you only want to do it once. For this reason, I also rely on templates, the more standard the better. Make your own, and use them for everything. If you have a line that shows up a lot, with minor variations? You could type it out each time, but if you CUT & PASTE it will be exactly the same in all of your pages, which makes it easier to find next time. Now, I don't have a nice neat template like Slime, what I tend to do is simply grab the last page I designed, strip out the content, change the colors, and that's the framework for my next site. For this reason I have every page I ever designed on my hard drive, neatly categorized by website. Some of the sites no longer exist, but the code I put into them is still good, that's my toolbox. Need a launched window? I wrote that code back in 1996, and with a few mods it's still good for the next time I need it. Frameset? Grab the last framed site and change some parameters, ready to go. RE-USE EVERYTHING. Laziness is a good thing, helps you eliminate mistakes. Good luck to you, glad you made the plunge! Your pal, -doc-
mr.maX Maniac (V) Mad Scientist From: Belgrade, Serbia Insane since: Sep 2000	posted 12-11-2000 22:54 Butcher, I'm glad that you like it! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif"> Stay tuned for updates - I'm planning a few surprises around Christmas... Doc, why don't you try my HTML Beauty? You'll throw HomeSite through the window afterwards... Err, or is it to the Recycle Bin? he he <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif"> [This message has been edited by mr.maX (edited 12-12-2000).]
OpticBurn Paranoid (IV) Inmate From: Lower City, Iest, Lower Felda Insane since: Sep 2000	posted 12-12-2000 00:05 On the subject of organization, I've been using revision control software for the last two projects I worked on, this has been really nice for keeping track of which design I really want to use, having different versions for text based browsers, and keeping track of the code that actually works. This is probably over kill for most people, but I had a few extra hours and had been setting up my repository for a code project, and figured what the hell, I might as well set one up for web pages. I use cvs, although there are more user friendly(bitkeeper comes to mind) wares out there. 100 posts down, forever in, and to the left i go.
JKMabry Maniac (V) Inmate From: out of a sleepy funk Insane since: Aug 2000	posted 12-12-2000 19:18 1st Page is excellent for the organizational bits that Doc and Bit mentioned. It has a code library where you can store your code snippets that you use often and it has excellent find and replace capabilites, a project manager, you can even 'save as a template'. Sucka's full featured. That said I will now proceed immediately to MrMax's dungeon and dl his. It sounds like a good one too. Don't wanna sound like an evrsoft pitchman.

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butcher
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: New Jersey, USA
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted 12-09-2000 17:08

Hi guys,....umm....err.... this is so embarrassing. I want to start coding sites by hand,(been using Dreamweaver). Can anyone or all of you give me any tricks for saving keystrokes, or any tips(production oriented or otherwise) for saving what little sanity I have left. There's a cold beer in it for all replies. Thanks in advance.

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted 12-09-2000 17:40

My best advice is to a text editor with color-coding support for html. I think I would go insane without colorcoding. A good example of this (if you use a PC) is eNotepad, which you can find at http://www.edisys.com/

Unfortunatley it's not free, but it is very cheap (last I knew under $20) and you can use the fully functioning demo for 30 days.

Other than that it's a matter of organizing your workspace -- lay the code out logically, so that seperate elements are visibly seperated. Indent nested bits of code, add comments as you go so that when you have to go back and fix something (trust me, you will!!!) you know exactly where you need to go.

mr.maX
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Belgrade, Serbia
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted 12-09-2000 17:52

Butcher, my best advice would be to use MAX's HTML Beauty++ ME to do all your coding work. It is definitively one of the best FREEWARE HTML editors (and I'm not just saying this, because I've created it <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">. Oh, I almost forgot, here's the url: http://www.max.co.yu/htmlbeauty/

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted 12-09-2000 22:19

Gonna check that out max <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

just to clarify, what I meant was that whatever you use, look for colorcoding of the text. For instance, the mine is set up, all the actual tags are blue. attributes are bold black. anything in quotes is red. anything within comment tags is green. etc.... makes trouble shooting and updating *so* much easier than if everything's black <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">

butcher
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: New Jersey, USA
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted 12-10-2000 01:30

Thanks guys, That sound like great advice DL, I can't wait to design something new so I can try it out.

Hey Max, thanks for the download. I haven't been able to look at it in-depth, but from what I read on your site, boy does it sound great! Soon as I try it out I'll let you know.

JKMabry
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: out of a sleepy funk
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted 12-10-2000 19:41

http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/stories/info/0,,0013DH,.html

Download that sucka, it's excellent, got a little review there if you wanna read up on it.

mr.maX
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Belgrade, Serbia
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted 12-10-2000 22:29

Well... MAX's HTML Beauty++ ME is better! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">

mr.maX

OpticBurn
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Lower City, Iest, Lower Felda
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted 12-11-2000 11:14

What text editor topic would be complete without a bbedit post?

bbedit rocks your world, especially the nifty read/write from an ftp server.

delphi
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Iceland
Insane since: May 2000

posted 12-11-2000 11:45

If you want a really good program you should use 1st page (can be found at tucows.com) it´s a lot like Homesite and it´s free.

butcher
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: New Jersey, USA
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted 12-11-2000 12:26

For anyone following this thread, the link that JK gave a couple of posts up, is a link to download 1st Page. Just letting everyone know to save you some time if you want to check it out.

bitdamaged
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: 100101010011 <-- right about here
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted 12-11-2000 16:04

Heres a couple of things

FIrst if you start writing JS save all your code. Somewhere, you will always find it helpful if you can re-use the same thing

Also I have a default "template" that I use all the time.

It's not much but If I need to put something together it's easier to not have to put in the opening <html> tags eveytime.

Here is the code for that.

<html>
<head>
<title> ..ooOO[ PROTOTYPE ]OOoo.. </title>
<script>
function init(){

}
</script>

<style type="text/css">
#testDIV {position:absolute; left:10; top:100; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; text-align:justify; color:#000000; visibility:visible; z-index:0;}
a { color: #15068A;}
a:hover { color: #CC0000; text-decoration: underline}
body {font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10px; text-align:justify; border: 1px solid #000000; overflow: hidden; margin: 0pt;}
</style>
</head>
<body BGCOLOR="#336699" LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 onLoad="init()">
<div id="testDIV">
this is a test
</div>


</body>
</html>

[This message has been edited by bitdamaged (edited 12-11-2000).]

butcher
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: New Jersey, USA
Insane since: Oct 2000

posted 12-11-2000 18:16

Thanks Bitdamaged, that's great advice. Anyone have any tips on file and project organization? until now my 'WYSIWYG' has done this for me, and as I've learned since coming to this forum, It's definitely better to learn from you guys and your experience, than from my own stupid mistakes.

BTW, Mr. Max, that's a very impressive piece of software you have created, Thank you. The one JK suggested was also very good. They both seem to be very intuitive to use even before reading any of the documentation. They both have extensive features, nice split window setups, and a quick preview tab to quickly go back and forth from code to page view. To all who are looking, check both of these out.

DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...

From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994

posted 12-11-2000 21:29

OK, as mentioned, a good editor with some basic color coding is essential. BBEdit for the Mac and HomeSite for the PC are my choices, typically. Another thing that is too useful for words is a good search and replace function, hopefully with a "global" parameter too. Sometimes you'll find yourself where you need to change one specific line that's in *every* page, and you only want to do it once. For this reason, I also rely on templates, the more standard the better. Make your own, and use them for *everything*. If you have a line that shows up a lot, with minor variations? You could type it out each time, but if you CUT & PASTE it will be *exactly* the same in all of your pages, which makes it easier to find next time.

Now, I don't have a nice neat template like Slime, what I tend to do is simply grab the last page I designed, strip out the content, change the colors, and that's the framework for my next site. For this reason I have *every* page I ever designed on my hard drive, neatly categorized by website. Some of the sites no longer exist, but the code I put into them is still good, that's my toolbox. Need a launched window? I wrote that code back in 1996, and with a few mods it's still good for the next time I need it. Frameset? Grab the last framed site and change some parameters, ready to go.

RE-USE EVERYTHING.

Laziness is a good thing, helps you eliminate mistakes. Good luck to you, glad you made the plunge!

Your pal, -doc-

mr.maX
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Belgrade, Serbia
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted 12-11-2000 22:54

Butcher, I'm glad that you like it! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif"> Stay tuned for updates - I'm planning a few surprises around Christmas...

Doc, why don't you try my HTML Beauty? You'll throw HomeSite through the window afterwards... Err, or is it to the Recycle Bin? he he <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">

[This message has been edited by mr.maX (edited 12-12-2000).]

OpticBurn
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Lower City, Iest, Lower Felda
Insane since: Sep 2000

posted 12-12-2000 00:05

On the subject of organization, I've been using revision control software for the last two projects I worked on, this has been really nice for keeping track of which design I really want to use, having different versions for text based browsers, and keeping track of the code that actually works.

This is probably over kill for most people, but I had a few extra hours and had been setting up my repository for a code project, and figured what the hell, I might as well set one up for web pages. I use cvs, although there are more user friendly(bitkeeper comes to mind) wares out there.

100 posts down, forever in, and to the left i go.

JKMabry
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: out of a sleepy funk
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted 12-12-2000 19:18

1st Page is excellent for the organizational bits that Doc and Bit mentioned. It has a code library where you can store your code snippets that you use often and it has excellent find and replace capabilites, a project manager, you can even 'save as a template'. Sucka's full featured.

That said I will now proceed immediately to MrMax's dungeon and dl his. It sounds like a good one too. Don't wanna sound like an evrsoft pitchman.