Preserved Topic: I'm officially "out"

Hey everybody,

Some of you may know me from the relentless questions I post to the various forums.

I'm 34 and decided last July to quit my job (that I was good at but hated), live off my savings, and try to make a living in Web Design.

Well, I'm here today to say that my dream has ended and the "real" job search begins Monday.

Maybe it was just poor timing, maybe I'm just lame, who knows?

What I do know is this: It's hard now. It'll only get harder. There is no such thing as job security in this field.

Pricing is going lower and lower. People are placing ads from India stating they'll do this or that for 10 Rupees. (Not to disparage the People of India--just an example---many others are willing to work for next to nothing--and employers are Wise to this)

Employers are sure starting to question their "net initiatives"----the same execs who were touted as "visionaries" about a year ago.

Almost every publicly held company in the IT field is cutting back. And it's not only the design shops. When Amazon's gotta let people go, something's up.

And DISNEY. DISNEY!!! They've decided that with all their resources, the net is not the place to be. DISNEY!!!

Will there be a rebound? Probably. But no where near to the scale as before. We'll just have that many more people looking for that many Less jobs.

Have a look at f**ked company.com. It's scary. At least a dozen net based businesses a day going belly up. And they report THE ONES WE'VE HEARD OF. What about all the other shops quietly closing their doors for the last time?

I realize more and more that many of the pages I frequent are produced compensation free (most, if not all tutorial sites), or are the whim of someone who has greater knowledge than"just" web design (Ozones, for example).

Even scarier still is the price of some stuff now.

Someone said it once: "Everyone's got their price".

Here's the new 'net version::

"Everyone's got their price. What's surprising is that the price is so low."

Strange how the majority of sites I frequent are "Lemme show you what i got" sites----and make the site producer zilch-o.

Anyway, my fiancee has officially given up (dumped me over this), practically readied a new cell at the 'Ole Asylum, and my compatriots all think I'm an idiot.

Maybe I am.

I'll continue my site building efforts, just now on a wayyyyy more limited basis. I'll be studying java while sitting on the train with my laptop now Ha Ha. ( After all, don't we need another tutorial site ? )

I wish you all the best of luck and really want to thank you all for all your support and help.

Hope to see you all soon.

HeddaLettis

[edit] damn typos...can't even say goodbye gracefully. [/edit]




[This message has been edited by heddaLettis (edited 02-09-2001).]

hedda - that's tough news buddy.
ok, time for a story formuncle buuncha...
my dad is a builder. he has owned several companies, that, well.. havent gone that well...
from this experience, and the experiences that i have had from his, uh, failures, ive learnt one thing:
no matter what the industry is, to expect high pay from day one comes hand in hand with the unexpected - high liability.
ive promised myself that, even if the pay is less, ill work for someone else, thankyou very much, and have a guaranteed paycheck every week. makes it easier to budget, that's for sure, when you know where your next check is coming from.
the main hurdle here is that one needs to be 'employable' to work for a company, which means certified education or experience, not just a love of design, and a knack.

well, ive ranted almost enough now, so ill just say i hope that of these last 8 months, you can at least take some life experience from it, i wish you all the best in your future endeavors, and most importantly - just cause your not a 'designer by trade', doesnt mean you cant hang out in the asylum! keep web design as a hobby, keep the asylum as a hobby...

I wish I could give you some advice on how to hold on hedda...but the market is, indeed, saturated with every shite "designer" that it possibly could be right now, hawking their eyecandied and dreamweavered templates to the lowest bidder. The North American downturn has affected all of us in some way or another. Investors are wary right now, and businesses who were getting readied to go online before, have packed up their galloshes and headed for drier pasture.

The only thing I can say is that good design is never something that can be tagged at bargain basement prices. It's tailored, crafted....and that requires craftsmen, not hacks. The market will rebound. No it won't be like it was in the oversaturated VCs at the door days....but that might just make it stronger. At least take heart that it will still be here for you to have fun with.

And hey, in a couple years, when you make the next Praystation, all those same hacks will be trying to rip your design styles and sell them to make the payments on their Frontpage software, and the new KPT package....or they'll still just be ripping Doc and Phong's old stuff while their $15.99 cheques clear.

Vive Le Resistance.

The net is reforming...you'll see.

Peter





ICQ:# 10237808

And to think I just flamed you on the site reviews board! LOL

Thanks buncha-

This is by far the most cohesive group I've ever run across on the net. The comraderie, true Global community, and mutual respect here is simply amazing.

I don't feel I'm a "bad" designer. In fact , I think I posess a "depth" few have in the way of design and content. Mebbe too esoteic.

But I'm not a kid, and I'm not stupid. I can read the writing on the wall. This time last year, how many design ads were seeking people with both print experience and an art degree? Just about none.

Check now. Oh, and you better be knowin' your Oracle suite too! And C++ and Java..and ...and...and...and....and....


I'll hopefully be back in the field of design on a professional basis, be it part-time or not. However, I can see where this is going, and it aint my way !

Let's put it this way: Today, I applied for a job as a Union Bricklayer. (A freakin' Bricklayer!!!)--- the pay? A cool $52.00 an hour 6 am to 2 pm.---no worries---no hassles. Nice Union job. Security. Retirement.

Do you REALLY see design ads like this say, next year, or the year after?

BTW-Dark Garden--

I think the biggest mistake I ever made was my insistence on hand coding. I've never used an editor other than Notepad---EVER.

Seemed to just slow me down in the eyes of potential employers who couldn't possibly care less.

You know, the same employers who want you to know 68 different languages------and frontpage.

BTW- I never said I was "out" of the forum. I'm still human, I still will have questions...and Someone needs to jump ~VP~ and steal his mop.

besides, who's going to sneak in contraband pears for Twitch^?

[This message has been edited by heddaLettis (edited 02-09-2001).]

you know, i respect that you tried. many others succeed and don't try. i don't point names. you know who you are.

you tried, you put your heart and soul into it, and you didn't make the team--this time. the net is very populated with cookie-cutter stuff that means nothing to anyone, and no one understands why...except the people buying them--cheaper. we know that. we know that someone can get a lame wrapper-style design from some bigname non-web development (but have their hands in every pie) company for less than it costs to send out a flyer--and it'll be better for them than that flyer.

unfortunately, the real designers in the field are being fucked. truly fucked. we're left to try to pick up the rare client that allows us to do our real jobs, find our real callings, and produce something that we can not only be proud of, but know that other people will be proud of it too. that's one of the drawbacks to having a job that focuses on "the creative."

so what are we left with? those of us that are sticking it out, taking the metaphorical broom up the ass in terms of pay, while still maintaining some degree of clarity in our work are the ones that are going to open it up again. there is reform coming. . . from all directions. from zeldman. from davis. from (gasp) nielson. from finck. from (ego) me. from (pride) peter. those of us that are -barely- skimming by are the ones that have been entrenched, and will sacrifice almost anything to ensure that the job is done--that the soul is full. we'll make sure the market is back.

the industry isn't gone. the industry is having a recession. we don't really know how to deal with it--it's the first one that we've ever had. it's not the last one we'll ever have. it is the most important one we'll ever see. it's going to determine who is and who is not a "designer" and who is and who is not willing to make sacrifices to make the net what it should be--more than just information, more than just style, more than just design--a work of art, in the purest form of the word. you want to be a model? get a polaroid, scan some photos, and put 'em up. you're competing with modelling agencies now. the net is power. it's not going anywhere, and the world's thirst for this powerful medium to be properly executed and handed to them on a silver platter is insatiable. we'll have jobs forever.

...our jobs are tough now. i know that. i'm not speaking about this as if i am looking at it from afar. i look at this as my life. i look at this as i am not making industry standard right now because the company can't afford it--and has offered me part of the company instead. i am here. i'm entrenched. not everyone can be.

the industry will survive. have faith in it.

Yow jeez, $52/hour is a lot fof reality to put into perspective, ain't it? Hmm, let's see if I can put this into perspective, looking back in time (my time, that is!) OK, It was 1988m I had my own furniture design and manufacture company in Manahattan, money was good, expenses were high, I was in major demand, and I HATED my job! I had *no* time for anything art related of my own, every minute was sold to a client, 70 80 90 hours a week. I had a former near-super model for a girlfriend (she was a bitch), my life to the outside world seemed ideal, the american dream!

I quit my job.

I sold the company to my two first employees.

I moved to Minnesota and got a job as a Printers Assistant at a Screen Prinitng plant, at approximately 1/10 of the wage mentioned above. (I went to the interview with a resume, which I crumpled up and hid while waiting for the to see the boss, it was a bit too heavy for the job I was after!) It took a while, but I learned to be happy occasionally. Because I am who I am, I moved up in the organization, and by the time I left them 7 years later I was the General Manager of the place.

The point of this story? I wanted to be an artist, a *real* artist. I found I couldn't be this while using every minute and every ounce of creativity to make ugly crappy furniture for my clients. My art was that stuff I did when I was *not* working, and even though I got to hone my technical skills while doing that furniture gig, it sapped me of all the good stuff. Even now, most of the people who want to hire me don't really want me for my design skills, but for some other aspect of my work, Information Architecure, usability, etc...

My art still happens, it happens *here*. So hedda, I'd have to say that you're not *out*, you're just on sabbatical, at $52/hour. Still welcome at the asylum, and probably still getting better at this thing we do. The dream can still be there, and we'll be there with you. When the market returns to some stability, possibly a year off yet, you'll still be here too, knowing more by then than you do now. Let's see what the future holds, cool?

Your pal, -doc-

Hmmm....

I always love your stories Doc, but this one I'm not sure I get. Maybe it's too early in Sweden Hah Hah.

Am I supposed to be aspiring to :

A: The company in Manhattan and the model?

or:

B: The financial freedom to dump both and start over?


Either way, I'd be pretty happy. Just lemme get to stage one first---then I'll worry 'bout stage two!

The way I'm seeing it, and let's hear the cacaphony if I'm wrong, is that I can make a relatively good paycheck that may be a little more *blue collar*---but still be home early enough to pursue other, more artisic, or in my particular case, programming endeavors.

What's pressing the issue is that I really don't think the net is a viable, substantive, stable workplace AT THIS TIME.
And if I was to hold out---*if my $$$ could*---then what am I holding out for? TV version 2.0? Seems that's where it's headed.

Either you're "Grandfathered" in, by being a 'net presence pre '94, or you have to know everything about everything, and then you have to let some idiot who couldn't find his ass with both hands and a flashlight disect you in interviews... Spouting idiotic "buzzwords". God Damn that bothers me!!

Anyway Doc-- I'm too crazy to be released from the Asylum. VP's still trying to teach me the finer points of "corner mopping", TwItch^ is still thumping at my cell for his Pears, F1_error has promised to show me his "glam fag" regalia, and I'm becoming infatuated with Shiiiizzzzam's signature.

I'll be 'round.

You know, I read somewhere that they used to have prisons in Siberia that didn't have any walls or fences, and hardly any gaurds at all. The reason--To where would the prisoners escape?? They had nowhere to go in the middle of Siberia...

What we did was take several people that had specialties, and bunched them all together into one group, thus offering more services. This means that we split the profits, but it's better. I'd recommend getting together with a couple of people and doing it. It's a little easier.

Pat Richard
Web weenie
http://www.gurusnetwork.com
ICQ 23113317

My story is similar but with a twist. When I was in high school I had aspirations of becoming some sort of graphics artist following high school. I took 4 years of drafting and four years of ART class. I aced all of those classes partly because I really cared to do good work and partly because I was the only person in those classes that really gave a shit and tried...everyone else took those classes for the easy credits.

On summer break between my junior and senior years I landed a job doing drafting. I was somewhat happy with the job until some asshole college kid from Purdue with extensive training in CAD was hired on to take my place. That tought me at an early age how shitty corporate environments can be. After that I found it difficult to find any more drafting jobs because everyone was starting to jump on the CAD bandwagon. So, I turned to manual labor... I took a few hours training at a local tech school and learned how to MIG weld. That was a hot job and hard job to do and I quickly got bored because it wasn't my true love, graphics.

In the mean time a few of my buddies from high school were rooming together in Brooklyn and they'd been bugging me to join them. My rent would only be $200 a month and I didn't need a car so I opted to join them and start spending more time doing art. This was great while it lasted. About 1 yr and 7 months later three of my buddies moved out within a months time and left two of us to pay a $2200 rent payment. At this point I opted to move to Houston and work for my uncle who owned a sheet metal flashing business. He was a complete asshole who tried to run my personal life by holding my job over my head. The good thing about that job was that I'd learned a lot about computers and computer hardware replacement there. After 3.5 years with him he layed me off because he said he couldn't afford to keep me on. That was complete bullshit. Fortunately I had a friend at Compaq who needed Window 95 installers for a rollout project to over 13,000 computers in 6 months. Compaq hired me on and I became a really good MIS hardware/software analyst.

The guy that hired me on at Comapq quit and came to work for KTEC Electronics in Sugar Land, TX. He bragged about me there and they called me up interviewed me and hired me on as a software analyst. This job afforded me the opportunity to start writing web pages and spend a lot of time with Photoshop. The director of Engineering noticed some of my talents for graphics and web design and recruited me from the MIS dept. to his dept.

The point of all of this is that I waited nine years to finally do what I wanted to do while I was in high school. I am very greatful for the job I have now and well respected for my creativity. It doesn't pay $52 an hour but I'm happy because it is what I've always wanted to do.

I would like to say to Hedda that you should hang in there and always keep goals in your life. If you don't things will get very depressing quick! Maybe for now it is best that you do what makes you money.

DG: I can't agree more. Two bit web designers are proliferating like fucking bunnies.

DOC: where was your Manhattan business located? what years were there? why did you move to Sweden?

Last but not least, "Good luck to all Asylumites in this 'net' downturn"

I have not really felt this downturn.

Don't expect your webpage to generate you work. You actually have to go out and meet people, tell people what you do. Don't try to sell yourself to them just tell them what you do. Get the word of mouth thing going. The next step is to go out and offer local businesses your services, sit down with them, tell them what you can do for them. 9 times out of 10 if you can give them something that could increase their revenue they will use you.

I don't know many Front Page designers who would be able to design an e-commerce solution. The small businesses would like to sell products too. Front-page does not have the button to set up the back-end code that will handle their products, their product transactions. You have to offer what they do not, and you have to offer better quality. I don't know may cut and paste outfits that could do a decent back end design, I don't even know of many who can present information in a usable fashion.

I do not want to sound like I have a huge ego, but, the worst sites that I do tend to be better than 90% of the small business sites out there that were created by a cut and pasters. You all know the look, they have a thousand different graphics on the page, saturated by jagged edges(the newest images from clipart.com), no layout, no standard navigation, no good way to display information.

Yes, I/we might charge double or tripple for the designs that we do, but we can guarantee them better results. We can lay down our knowledge of usability issues, of browser compatability, color choice, fluidity over different resolutions and monitor sizes. When you sell yourself you have to sell your full package. The things that you no longer even think about is a big deal to your potensial clients. But do not lie about what you know, you actually have to know what you are attempting to sell them.

I can guarantee that someone going to their site will come back if their content is good. I am sure that the cut and pasters can not do this, because their designs are not new, not innovative, and they do not flow with the content that is being presented.

I would take a hard look at the marketing efforts that you have put into your endevors. The big companies have huge marketing teams, do you think that that is because they want to put extra people on the pay roll? The reason is that they know they need to put real person to person effort into selling themselves and their product. If people are going to purchase something you either need to have an amazing track record, or you have to one on one the person into your fold.

Also, this is something you have to do purely out of love. If you are doing it for profit than you are in the wrong field. This is art, and as art you will face the down time that most artists are plauged by. You may scoff at peddling you wares on the corner, but that might be what we are relegated to, but even if that is the case, I would be one of the first people out there.

-mage-

Not "out" heddaLettis, just side tracked.

If this is something you truly enjoy, you gotta keep trying. There's no defeat in earning money at one thing, while you pursue another. Besides, as Doc alluded to, I think one of the ultimate pleasures in this life would be to earn a living at something you actually enjoy. To not wake up every morning and think oh shit, I have to go there again. I've been working the same job, ( as a butcher, what a surprise!) for the last 21 years. I'm good at what I do because I take pride in my work, and it pays the bills, but I am really beginning to hate it.

I come home every day, read my books, turn on my computer and try to practice what I have learned. Always with the hope that one day I might make a living, doing what I come home and do now for nothing. If I didn't have the responsibility of a lovely wife and three beautiful children, (mortgage, bills, ect.) I would gladly take a cut in my pay to make the jump. Because of these factors, I have to take the long road, keep plugging, learn what I can, and continue to hope that I can eventually make the switch.

Besides, If your giving up on this at (34), I gotta figure at (39) I'm really wasting my time. So go to work, make your $52 an hour, and keep trying, you just can't give up on something you have a passion for.

Yes, very "far" from out.

Hedda! I've been kicked in the balls more times than I care to remember. My first was winning a scholarship to Art College, but being unable to take it up, instead I joined the Armed Forces.
Do I regret not being able to pursue my dream? You betcha, but the reasons why I couldn't, I came to terms with a long time ago - I had too.

Throughout my life, I've still sketched and painted. This was the dream that nothing could take away from me.

When I first stumbled across the Ozone and Doc himself, I thought Hey! I wanna do this stuff, transpose my Art from pencil to digital and maybe I'd become a web designer, earn a living at it. However, like butcher says, Bills, Mortgage etc, the things that give your family security- some things take priority.
I guess for me (just turned 48), I'm fortunate in having found a wonderful hobby, which I will become more proficient at as time goes by.

One thing's for sure Hedda, you're a part of a great big family here in the Asylum. From time to time we get outta line, but if any one of us has a problem, the family sticks together supporting each other.

Never stop living for your dream. Dreams can (and do) become reality.




[This message has been edited by Phil (edited 02-10-2001).]