Preserved Topic: Opinions appreciated on social dilemma.

Ok, I'm sitting here all upset about something and I'm hoping your input can help me deal with it.

Let's say you work with a group of people and that group consists of two ethnic backgrounds. A new person comes into the group and while not knowing that one member of an ethnic group can hear says to the other group, "oh wow there are lots of ethnic group 1 here". The group then laughs and thinks it's nice. The one member who overhears this feels this is not far removed from a racist expression. The one member of ethnic group 2 who overhears is now tempted to say something like "I apologize that I'm not a member of your ethnic group but I'm pleased to meet you all the same". This, of course, dripping with sarcasm and veiled vituperation.

Am I off base? Opinions?

I think that the group laughing is a bigger problem than the person commenting. If I were the overhearer, I'd be mistrustful of that whole group now, definitely a bad situation.

I'd get out front of it fast and dispel any issues.

Someone should have responded immediately and said something like "there are a lot of *people* here, yes, it;'s a great group to work with...." etc.

Emphasize the commonalities--people won't focus on the differences. Especially if everyone's oriented toward the same goal.

Just my 2 Yen.

Well, I think maybe you messed up your ethnic group numbers. Regardless, what exactly is your personal dillema? This seems to be a story about some tension between ethnic groups, which obviously is sort of a bad thing, but what are you asking for opinions on? I say the first person to make the comment was a bit off-base, maybe he had no intentions of being racist or anything, but I find it's always safest to leave stuff like that unsaid. No one here was really wrong, though, it was mainly a misunderstanding.

opinion - the first person is silly.
IMO, comments like that are totally stupid and worthless.
what intellect is shown in commenting on a basic observation?
"she's fat." - yeah, so? if that mattered to me, i wouldve noticed anyway.
"this place is swarming with [insert slang name for racial group here]."
- how does anyone benefit from this comment?
a) it makes the person look racist, for, although it may not necessarily be a racist comment, it makes the person look as though they naturally group all people of this race together, which is, of course, leading towards stereotypes and predjudice etc.
b) it dont make that person look no smarter either - 'watch out scotland yard! this fella is pretty damned smart!'
c) no one can benefit from knowing that there are an abundance of one particular race in a particular place.

even though i must admit i am sometimes guilty of these sorts of useless comments, i really dont like them.

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b u n c h a p i x e l s

Yeah, I think the person should say that.

Then, they should write "ethnic group 1 sucks!" all over the bathroom walls. And then they need to write little notes and stick them here and there on the persons desk. Then they should probably go around spreading false rumors about the person...

What would that do besides create more tension? Just let it be. There is enough ignorance in the world right now, why contribute to the pot?

Yeah, gosh, those ethnic group 2 people are all such jerks.

address it with the party(ies) that offend(s), you know about that root of bitterness that can grow up and defile many eh? As much as it depends on you, live at peace with all men.

Don't let it fester and grow. Unfortunately that may make more trouble than anything. Sometimes situations suck no matter what you do.

Jason

heh - this makes me want to make a KKK slimie.
but im not near a PS6.
anybody?

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b u n c h a p i x e l s

I think that if it is in a business enviorment, a meeting needs to be held on the issue. This way it gets it out in the open in a constructive formal way. This way it does not let petty quarels get in the way. If you do it on a 1 to 1 basis tention can still be there, if you do it in a way as to say, it was a rude comment, let make sure person who said it was completely off base and wrong, but I do not think it can be dwelt on longer because we all need to work togeather to achomplish go #1.

Where's the profit in these comments? For the individual or the company? Utterly valueless.

But people slip and lose sight of the objective. So what do to now? I have some general ideas, but this isn't the place for it. Bugimus, if you really want to hear what else I have to say, drop me a line. Or not.

Outtie.

all i can add to this is that although racism is sickeningly contagious, so is tolerance and acceptance and other virtues that a xian like yourself *should* show. just try it, hopefully colleagues can realise how foolish their actions have been, and people can just move on.
but again, this depends on how abrasive the current situation is.

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b u n c h a p i x e l s

Ethnic group... seems more like racial similarity. Ethnicity is an important quality and should not be quickly applied to others who share racial or other qualities. Ethnicity involves deep, regional cultural history and current tradition and ritual. If the person who was just introduced to the group is lightly commenting on similarities based on ethnicity, they are shallow and unimaginative for assuming their sameness so quickly. If they are making assumptions of sameness based on skin color or something, they are foolish and dangerously closed minded.

Well, all I can say is that venting here to my friends has helped me greatly. Instead of jumping to the gun and saying something stupid, I was able to resist my *feelings* and *anger* and stay cool. I don't like the situation anymore than I did when it first happened but taking all your comments into consideration, I think it is best to take the high road and work on fostering tolerance. The day it happened though, I came real close to losing it.

Thanks, you all have really helped me. But don't expect a group hug or anything like that

I remember a wedding I attended once with my wife Wella. It was a Filipino wedding and at our table was a Filipino woman. Our waiter was black and after he had served us, this woman went on to tell me how remarkable this waiter was. I wondered why and she explained that normally you don't see *them* dressed so nice and speaking so politely. I calmly looked at her in a confused way and told her how the majority of the black people I knew were like that. She tried to get out of it by saying that she didn't think most were like that and so I simply recommended she probably needed to associate with more blacks and she would see for herself that I was right. At that, she gave up and kind of pounded the table and didn't speak to me the rest of the meal. It was worth it

Arrgg.. I hate these kind of discussions... mainy because racisim isn't the real issue here IMO.

It's just plain old human nature of 'Boxing things' so to speak. We all seem to generalise people by their most obvious charastic, as we do all thnigs. A apple is round, a person is fat. An orange is well, orange, a person is black. We learn to do this from a very young age and then people start telling up that we cant make the visual association that this person is black or this person is fat.

Ok so mabey that guy shouldn't have said that there are a lot of group x people here. Or mabey the person overhearing shouldn't have gotten so pissed off about it. All the other guy did was say there were a lot of them. So what gives, he didn't say that group x were a bunch of druggies or nothing. If you ask me, what he did was actualy more offensive in response.

Anti-racisim so to speak is often a cause of racisim, example:

Billy simply refers to Mark through visual assioation like skin colour and Mark get's offended! The person being racist in this situation is also the person that's being offended. Further more, when Billy observes that Mark was offended by what he said , Billy too becomes offended because Mark assumed that Billy was being ofensive in the first place. You may need to read that a couple of times but it all goes down hill from here. Now I know many people will dissagre with me but first let me point out a few things.

Saying someone is short is not offensive.

Saying you hate short people is racist. Never say this unless you want to get killed by a bunch of angry short people!

If you refer to someone by being short and this person gets offended, then I say that the short person is at fault, why? Because they need to accept that they are indeed short and stop getting offended by people who simply speak the truth, as speaking the truth should never be discouraged.


But these are simply my views, take it or leave it.

well said Dracusis.

Though of course one must not always speak the truth simply because it is the truth... you can just as well say nothing at all.

Sure, it was not the most vitty and intelligent thing to say, but if the person was new in the group I am sure he was a little nervous and just trying to make conversation. I can't see anything racial about it what so ever. Just a bit of stupidity.

I just can't understand Americans obsession with racial and ethnic groups. As if it matters anyway.

I agree somewhat with what Dracusis is saying. People have become far too senstitive at even the observation of race. I recall a story I was trying to tell some people about how I and a girlfriend were being followed around San Antonio by a couple of Hispanic guys. At the mention of their ethnicity, someone (who didn't even happen to be Hispanic) got quite uppity and offended that I would point out the fact that the two guys were Hispanic like all Hispanics were thugs.

I was simply being thorough in my setting up the story so that those to whom I was telling it could accurately picture the situation. Technically, it was equally unnecessary to mention that the guys followed us into a Burger King when I could have simply said they followed us into a "fast-food restaurant." But, I wanted to include such details so the story wasn't generic.

Hell, any good author will include physical descriptions of his characters so that his audience can picture them as he sees them.

However, in the case of Bugimus's story, the entire purpose of the moron's comment was to single out the ethnic group. If he had been trying to find a particular person whose name he didn't yet know and had said, 'you know, the Chinese guy with the glasses," I wouldn't see a problem. But that's not what he was doing.

"There sure are a lot of black people here," is harmless as a logical statement. Yes, in fact, there are a lot of them, numerically, present in this building. But, that's not what a person is saying when uttering those words. Stating such an obvious fact by itself and not as an enhancement to a story implies a concern for the fact itself. A statement like that has a point.

And, of course, there's something to be said for the manner in which the statement was said. Even in a freshman college Communications course, one of the first things you learn is that words are only a small part of communication. The way you say something says as much or more as your language does. You can effectively offend the executives at Folger's with the words "coffee is delicious" if you say it right.

But that aside, simply commenting on the presence of a large number of a particular ethnic group, although not explicitely racist, has racist implications. I cannot accept that the idiot's comment didn't have a reason for singling out the ethnic group. He meant something by it.

Oh, and on the issue of a retaliation. I don't see what good it can do. It would only cause more tension and people would begin taking sides. It would result in division and then you really would have a racial situation.

However, I would see nothing wrong with a polite, yet firm, confrontation. Something along the lines of, "Excuse me. Hi, I'm Dan. I overheard what you said about so many [i]Ethnic Group 1[i/] working here. I don't want to assume that you meant any harm, but I couldn't help but feel a little offended that you felt it necessary to point out. I hope that we will be able to work together all right."

A sarcastic and vengeful reaction would only confirm any bigoted opinions the jerk already has.

Additionally, as long the issue ends there, I would definitely avoid involving the company. Given such sensitivity to racial issues, companies have obligations to react in an extreme, and often litigious manner, which, in my opinion, makes things worse.



[This message has been edited by Wes (edited 05-18-2001).]

I live in a major US city.....one of which I'm glad to say is very ethnically diverse and for the most part people get along very well with each other. However, acting without taking into account your racial background in a given situation can at times be perilous. Whether it's something like walking through a certain neighborhood, bar, club.....ect ect......you have to think about what you are doing and how you fit into that situation. Though I've lived in the area my entire life, since moving right into the heart of the city, I've been intrigued by the fact that although people get along well......an understanding exists.....a mutual respect for the realities of life. Like although we try to turn a blind eye to race it does have an effect on situational outcomes. I've had friends turn to me and comment on the racial makeup of a room....expressed through nothing more than eye contact. It was given for nothing more than to say watch your ass/Ps and Qs.....because if you don't things are going to get real ugly, real fast. And this is a very nice establishment......I guess it's just pointing out that despite everyone getting along well.....lines will be drawn real fast if someone gets their nose out of joint. It could be as simple as accidentally bumping into someone within a crowded room, spilling a drink and the person not hearing sorry......you get the idea. So the bottom line I guess is that for all of PC bs that we try to paint over normal life.....the old "this is my neighborhood, use some resepct or you are going to have problems", because of your race.......coldwar respect/tension......totally applies.

corr

Gah! How did you know I was short? That's it! You'll be hearing from my friends at the Lollipop Guild!

You have farrr too much time on your hands their DG

But I still find it hard to previeve that buy saying that there are a large number of x groupe here racist. Say this happened in Japan, there was this Japanise person that just started working fot this company and he said, gee there sure are a lot of white people here. What's wrong with that. Yes he has singled out all of the white people but why? Well in this situation it would be because he did not expect there to be so many white people here. He did not say that this was a bad thing, he was meely making a statement based on his observations. But is it wrong to assume that the majority of people an x place will be x type. No I don't think so.

Why I recently went on a holiday down to the Gold Coast (Queensland, Australia) and stayed in 'Surfers Paradise'. I was quite supprised to find something like 75% of the people there were asian. Yes i was supprised by this, mainly because it's an australian town so my assumptions were justified. Sure mabey a little pig headed of me but it was also something I commented on to several of my friends when I returned as I found it rather fanaciting.

However, in the situation Bugimus mentioned we cannot tell if something like this would be the cause of the persons comment. Therefore we can't really judge either side, I'm just choosing to point out that the other person may be at fault because no one else bothered to.

And yeah, I do agree that many things should not be said even if they are true.

Dracusis

There are a lot of Lunatics here

I wish they would keep to themsleves and not mingle with us Mad Scientists. Filthy Bastards, every one of them.

I think the world is far too politically correct, and while racism is a stupid thing - you can't deny that there *are* in fact some very significant differences between races/cultures or *whatever* you want to quibble over.....

Everyone has prejudices, and those of you who say you don't are one of two things

1) a big fat stinking liar

2) a very naive individual

I have prejudices...and I have no qualms discussing them. I have no problems making black jokes, I have no problem hearing Irish jokes.....stereotypes are often in existance for a reason..and while many get exagerated, many often hold true.

So......lighten the fuck up everyone.

political correctness is just a form of censorship..

as for prejudices.. we all have them.. we make our judgements by them, i like high fat ice cream.. others judge me to be insane for eating something with so many calories..
but all prejudices have consequences... some good, some not so good..


~velvetrose

arrrggghhhh....
*phortay yells after stepping on a small thumb-tack...
he then ponders 'was it the tack or my foot at fault here?'*

Much debate..much debate...but nevertheless...it matters none! General opinions about racism, although well based, really have no place in the office. If you think they do, or feel it should not make a difference...wake up!
Most businesses would rather protect thier interests over yours and their insurance lawyers would advise the same. I live in california and the paranoia regarding office discrimination of any kind is at an all time high! Protect your own interests...watch your mouth and keep your hands to your self...its business never personal!

*phortay holds up a sign that reads:
'The ideas in this post are the expressed opinions of phortay and phortay only! They do not represent DocOzone or the OzoneAsylum."*



[This message has been edited by phortay (edited 05-30-2001).]