Preserved Topic: pledge ruled unconstitutional II (Page 1 of 1)

Ok...the old one was really long...here's the new one.

Continued form here: http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum1/HTML/004834.html

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

Hehe...yeah, that's what I expected...the same reaction that I get from those Jehovah's Witnesses that come knocking...always great to sit over a cup of coffee and 'discuss' the Bible...I wonder why they never come back? *shrugs shoulders*...maybe they don't like my coffee...

So back to the original topic...which was?

Anybody know if this stuff is going to the Supreme Court?

1) I mean where did all this come from?
http://www.crystalinks.com/creation.html

There is a big list, tons of ideas.


2) Maybe you know why if we were evolved from monkeys, why we suddenly stopped evolving after we hit humanity? Or do you think were just taking a break and we are going to keep going?
http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/links/evolinks.html

Here again is a little list that might help you understand these ideas.

I only saw those two questions. If you have more please restate them so that I might be able to lead you in the right direction towards information...

WS did have the right idea about Google though. Vast amounts of information on any and all topics.

It will probabally go to the supreme court sometime after they stop chanting the pledge on the steps of all the public buildings and go back inside to do some work.

Very nice, WarMage...that's why I suggested Google..I mean, Synthetic is sitting before his display surfing, right? So why ask me to do all the hard work? After all, I wasn't asking the questions...and I've done enough researching on all the questions he asked in the Formal Debate...which, now that I think about it...has really broadened my horizens, and info...kinda cool...

If he had asked me what I believe in, well, that's a different story, right? I don't really think one will find that in Google...but, as usual with such people, he wasn't really interested in what I believe...oh well...

I would really like to see this go before the Supreme Court...because it's interesting...I wonder what they would rule in this case...

I was hoping for some ideas that at least sounded like a possibility, but thanks for at least trying to provide some info WarMage

I was looking for WS's opinions, I have already read more on google than most of you will ever hope to...
--------------------------

Yes I heard on CNN today that it could get sent to the Supreme Court in the next few days, but as you said they have been outside chanting

Well at least they have the courage to show what they support, I hear a lot of people on the news talking about what they think about it but it's funny I don't see them out showing their words in action.

It?s easy to talk big on TV but it's quite another to walk what you talk

-------------------------------

WS - Jehovah's Witnesses? Ok God help us all, I get one of those about once a week lol

After they realize I know more about their religion than they do, they just up and leave the same way, I never even serve coffee. I think they are programmed to give a certain speech and when they realize I'm not dumb enough to buy it they turn and exit stage left

Either that or I need a new air freshener lol

and I didn?t ask you what you believed because from your statements you made it pretty clear, it wasn't God and you think we came from monkeys, that's all I really need to know to tell you off base.

But since you obviously want to speak, feel free to share what you believe with us

And btw I never waited for you to ask, I told you what I belive without being asked or ashamed, that should be something you volunteer to share if you belive in something that strongly.



If we meet and you forget me, you have lost nothing, but if you meet Jesus Christ and forget him you have lost everything.

[This message has been edited by Synthetic (edited 07-01-2002).]

I thought those were all pretty complete lists. The creationism links to most of the different ideas, religious as well as scientific. I don't think you could ask for much more than that. Gives you everything not leaving out many groups (some of the newer scientific ones were left out, and the new fangeled religious ones as well.

You should actually click on the links and read the articals, they are pretty good. Gives you a wide spectrum of knowledge to call upon.

Ok, let's drop this here...this is not a thread for personal 'belief' stuff...well, it is, but not for 'our' personal beliefs...and this thread has been hi-jacked enough...

You can pop over to the philosophy section, where we are having a Formal Debate on this very subject...and get involved...and then we can get into it...I'll be waiting...

Once again, Thanks for the links, WM...you don't know how glad I am that you supplied them...hello, Formal Debate...

I was just curious as to what he believed since he never was clear on his statements and kept buggin about it, I agree this isn't the place to discuss it and since the thread hi-jacker is moving to another area and invited me along, I'd be more than happy to follow

If you remember I wasn't the one who just had to keep bringing it back; I tried to leave twice

I have a meeting in about 15 mines so I?ll see you and anyone else interested, over there after work

=====================================================

quote:

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I am in no way like what you think you know about me or what your concept of a real Christian is.

---

Very true. You're nothing like my concept of what a real Christian is, if your previous statements are anything to judge by. My concept of a real Christian is of one who doesn't not flaunt their beliefs in the faces of others, nor inform non-believers that they are going to Hell unless they believe, regardless of how good they were in life, nor even believe that themselves. That, to me, is such an Abomination, I can't even begin to tell you.

quote:

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You see by saying that you?re putting all people to claim to believe in God in a box and giving them a label and that's what I was trying to avoid.

---

Ah, but you misunderstood me: I wasn't referring to all Christians or even all people who claim to believe in God, but to people with attitudes like yours who provide all the bad PR a religion could ever need.

quote:

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You can?t be saved and go to heaven because you?re a nice guy and do good works

---

It's statements like this that make me think that most Western religion revolves around money. (Heck, maybe Eastern religions do, too. I just don't encounter them often enough to form an informed opinion.)

What follows is a completely hyperbolic statement or two, not meant to represent all religions nor the followers of said religions. It is simply what comes to mind when I read statements of 'belief' like the above:

<Hyperbole>'You want to get into Heaven? You can't just be the best human being ever; you have to Believe. You Believe? Great! There's a Church just down the road where you can go. God wants you to go to Church; He told me so Himself. Oh, just one thing: I'll need ten percent of your annual income (that's gross, not net; don't make us audit you).'

I also feel that that's why suicide is generally regarded as a 'sin'. Imagine this, if you will, in the time before it was so decreed: '"...and so, Heaven is the greatest place ever, much better than the squalid heckhole you live in, and if you Believe (and give your ten percent), you will go to Heaven when you die." "Hey, that's great! Hey, if I kill myself, I can die now and go to Heaven, instead of waiting for years and years in this squalid heckhole!" "(watching his coffers dry up) No no, don't do that!" "Well, why not, for Heaven's sake?" "Um.... um.... um... because it's a SIN! Yeah, a sin! Kill yourself, go straight to Hell forever!" "Oh... well, I guess I'll keep giving my ten percent..." "Let us pray..."'</Hyperbole>

Seriously, though... assuming that there is a God, who the heck're you to tell me what my fate is if I don't Believe? That's very presumptive on your part, regardless of what the Bible or anyone else says. BTW, I'm no religious scholar (I know you're thinking, "You lie!" ), but does anyone know if there's a Christian faction that DOES believe that simply being a good person is enough to get you into Heaven?

(Looking back over the post) Whew...

For closure, I'll take a stab at one of Synthetic's more incisive questions: why is the Earth in perfect alignment?

The way I see it, it's all a matter of probability. With over 10 billion stars in the sky, almost all, if not all, having over five planets in their solar systems, one would assume that there ought to be a multimodal distribution of planetary distances, with the peaks being at those distances that are mathematically and physically stable. Do the math, as they say. If what we call Earth today was one 'degree' closer to the Sun, you are right - the heat would have burnt all significant forms of life off the face of the Earth. But there would undoubtedly be another planet somewhere in one of the many galaxies at the requisite distance from its Sun, and intelligent life would have flourished there and that would be know as Earth and people would wonder why that planet and that planet alone was at the very distance required for life, and credit it all to a heavenly diety. (whew). In fact, IIRC, a similar reasoning is used to argue the possibility of intelligent life outside the solar system.

I think the more relevant question to ask here is not 'why?' but 'why not?'

Also, Synthetic, if you want to read more about why the celestial arrangements are just so, you might be interested in the 'pool-hall' theory - I think that's what it's called. Google it if you like...




.. One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor ..

Going back to the previous thread:

Insider, your dad is a bigot and I'm sorry to see that you are growing up to be a bigot as well.

(for those who think I'm being insulting, please look 'bigot' up. www.dictionary.com)

How is it that the Christians in this country don't see that they are imposing their will and beliefs onto those of us in this country who don't share those beliefs just because there are more of them?

The only dissenting judge agreed that the words shouldn't be there but disagreed that the words didn't harm the girl. The same could be (and probably was) said of segregation. That doesn't change the fact that segregation was wrong (something that the majority wanted). In the same way God in the Pledge and on our money is wrong.

SInce WS and Synthetic started arguing evolution vs. creation, I must say here, both points cna actually be right, both at the same time.

Everything starts somewhere, so really, God, Vishnu, Allah, who ever, could have created all of everything, but only the beginning of it. SInce then we have continued to evolve under the benevolant eye (or whatever you want ot believe).

Koan 63, written on the wall of cell number 250:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

Well Skaarjj, that could be true...who knows? The point is, Synthetic is saying that Evolution is wrong (despite the facts and evidence). This is actually scary, when you consider it. This is Belief boardering on Fanatic-ism...and that, my friends, is dangerous. Crusades, witch-hunts, martyres, and inquisitions all came from such...I find that both alarming, and dangerous...the Middle-East religions ( the Fanatics there) are like this...and are willing to kill themselves in the name of their Faith...

If he was moderate in his Belief (and Faith, much as Bugs is...read - tolerant), it wouldn't bother me at all. But blind faith (and belief) is dangerous.

Well, I guess we can thank our lucky stars he is not in a position to dictate to us...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 07-03-2002).]

Thanks for all the input guys, and I will read more into that as well, thanks aerosoul...

I'm glad we had this chance to hear all the different opinions on this matter

And WS I don't want to be in leadership over people sorry to disappoint you, and if I was in a position to dictate to you, I wouldn't impose my belief on anyone anyway, that?s not how it works. You have to believe on your own, it's not something you can be forced into...

It's like the horse and the water, I tried to show you where the lake is, if you don't want a drink then go ahead and stay thirsty.

Later guys, i'm off to play some chess... WS you going to move today? lol


If we meet and you forget me, you have lost nothing, but if you meet Jesus Christ and forget him you have lost everything.

Has anyone got any new info on the pledge ?

I haven't heard a thing about it since monday...

Last I heard the The Ninth Circuit said it would reconsider.

The guy on CNN said he didn't think it would be needed to go to the supreme court anymore...

I guess we'll have to wait and see

Already moved...waiting for you...

As for a ruling...well, we'll just have to see...