Preserved Topic: More scary stuff to look faorward to... (Page 2 of 2)

Ok, so on Freeware. It won't run unless adapted to the new architecture.

And what about webservers? Most are Sun or Linux run Apache webservers which microsoft's new architecture (supposedly) can't communicate with.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion, but this is what I've read.

OK I have started an FAQ on this:

:FAQ: What is Palladium?

and if people are thinking about moving to Linux then we have a good section in the FAQ for this:

:FAQ: Linux

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

So I will just have to have a couple of machines then if this awful situation occurs. One big monster with all my applictions on and NEVER connect it to the net. Also a second barebones system with just an operating system and empty disk space always online and thats all it will do. Then I'll start using 2054 bit encryption on everything. I bought these machines, and paid a lot of money for my stuff, what is mine is mine... and no one is going to alter or take over or tamper with any of it either. That could make me really antagonistic.

Still there's always CB radio and carrier pidgeon..

Microsoft pidgeon...





[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 07-28-2003).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Love the idea, Xpirex- mind if I borrow it?

Go ahead...

Hello everyone.. Im a newbie here
here is my view..
There is no denying the fact that Microsoft uses all sorts of tactics to lock users into their products.
This is their primary tactic and always will be ( almost all closed source businesses do this )
Knowing about this its only logical that palladium will be designed with this tactic in mind.
You also have to know that MS is famous for shooting themselves in the foot (XP product registration).
And you cannot make millions of users swallow this new "inovation" easily. From what I understand about palladium
and DRM software is that it will be an OPTION. You can either turn it on or OFF. Therefore the only use
I see for DRM is for companies that want to keep their workstations data internal.
Linux users .. Linus himself said that he has no problem with DRM software.
So I would expect DRM palladium machines to talk to DRM enabled linux desktops/servers.
This technology is more usefull in server security than for the desktop user although i think MS just to
look like the protector of the music and movie industry will sell it like candy to the normal user.

As for me I have not touched windows in 2 years..
I have been using Linux Mandrake in my desktops (work and home) and Slackware + Red Hat for the servers.
I can use applications like:
Dreamweaver MX
Flash MX
Office XP (although i use Open Office www.openoffice.org all the time)
many more.. thanks to www.codeweavers.com and wine

I play games like:
Neverwinter nights,
Enemy Territory,
UT2003,
Tribes 2,
GTA Vice City,
War Craft 3 FT,
ect.. ect..
thanks to native ports and transgaming WineX (www.transgaming.com)

and im happy to say that i can do everything i could do in windows and more .. except.. uh.. Play Half Life 2 when it comes out.. darn.. hehe
but .. im sure that transgaming will port it very fast..

weeee....

[This message has been edited by megalex (edited 07-28-2003).]

Welcome Megalex and thankyou for that more tempered viewpoint. Aahhh, I breath a little easier after that.

Bloody hell, I opened up a can of worms here didn't I. But I'm a stubborn bugger when I want to be and I've not seen anything to warrant a change of opinion on this issue.

What I'm trying illustrate is that MS isn't out to get you. Underhanded and egotistical yes, but if they screw you, you won't give them money for their product and if you don't give them money then they screw themselves. They know what sells and they know what doesn't. They also know that they have a bad rep and that people are watching them and they know if they don't give people what they want, it won't sell.

The thing I don't understand is, everyone seems to be acting as if this has already happened. People are switching to *nix desktops and the product hasn't even been released yet? Does that not seem absurd to anyone else?

If all of this is true then mark my words, I'll be voting with my feet.

On the other hand, if MS's new OS doesn't infringe on my privacy rights but does hinder the efforts of pirated software, pirated music and information theft through increased security then I'm all for it. But no one here seems willing to see that as a possible outcome. Everyone seems to be assuming MS is out to screw the public whilst ignoring any possible benefits. If that's the way you want to see it then fine, be that way, but I thought people here were a little more open minded. I guess I underestimated the power of MS bashing.

On the issue of piracy, yes my first copy of Photoshop was a pirated version and yes I still have illegal copies of some software on my PC, but only because it's too easy for me to do so. I should probably feel guilty because of this but I don't, and that's the biggest problem with piracy, people don't see is as a serious crime. Now, if I could never have installed PS then I'd turn to free open source solutions and I'd probably never have purchase Photoshop if that had happened. You don't have to be a genius to know that a large chunk of the people using pirated software eventually go out and pay for it. You also don't need to be a genius to know that eliminating piracy will see a large chunk of people turning to free and open source solutions and sticking with them.

So, what will Adobe and Macromedia do to deal with that sudden loss of income from the elimination of piracy. Sure they may gain some income by forcing some people to pay who otherwise wouldn't have, but they know a certain % of piracy turns into profits for them in the long run. The solution is easy and companies like Alias wavefront and discreet have already answered that by creating free versions of their products for people who simply wish to learn the software.

This will also feed back to the open source community, more people will use free software and more free software will be developed. As for the MS file system not being compatible with existing apps... I find this hard to swallow that there won't be some kind of emulation to help the transition, but even if there isn't theres no difference between this and the move from Mac OS 9 to OS X. People praised OS X for making such a bold move but now MS tries something to benefit the speed of their OS and everyone starts crying foul? -- again, I think the train of thought that automatically makes people see the bad before the good is a product of the anti MS stigma that's been around for ages.

The music side of things is the same. Almost everyone I know who owns a computer has pirated music. This doesn't make it OK to have it though, it's still a crime but without serious measures in place to prevent it no one will ever see it as a real crime. Eliminating music piracy will also have increased benefits for the music community at large as no-name armature artists will have a greater opportunity to distribute their music. People will be more willing to explore armature artists music if commercially produced records aren't at arms reach.

But maybe It'd be more productive for me to convince people to switch to an OS that needs to emulate the OS I just switched form in order to do everything I could have done if I didn't bloody well switch in the first place!

Yeah, that sounds like a top notch idea to me. Where do I sign up for some of that insightful logic?

Ultimately, until this OS is released I'll abstain from making any decisions as to which OS I'll use in the future.

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 07-29-2003).]

Speeding is bad. Speeding kills people. But that's my choice, sometimes not a very wise choice, but still my choice. If they make a law that american cars max out at 25mph, then I'll buy a car from another country.

Dracusis - I don't wholly disagree with you, but there a couple key points that *need* addressing -


1)

quote:

---

Half of what was said in that article would be illegal in my country

---

Yes. But does illegal mean they don't do it? I mean....christ, a large part of what this is about is stoppin gthe user from doing illegal things (which means that users are doing things despite them being illegal). PS's speeding analogy is a very good one. I speed. Just about everyone I know speeds. I see cops and politicians speeding all the time. They're the people who create and enforce the speed limit laws...and yet they break them.

Assuming that because something is illegal, it won't be done, is very dangerous.

2)

quote:

---

but if they screw you, you won't give them money for their product and if you don't give them money then they screw themselves. They know what sells and they know what doesn't. They also know that they have a bad rep and that people are watching them and they know if they don't give people what they want, it won't sell.

---

Except one big problem - most people don't know. Most people don't even realize that MS has a "bad rep" because to the average joe, they simply don't! To geeks like us, they do.

And if the manufactures sell crap, and there are no real, well know, viable alternatives, then the people *will* give them the money for crap, and thank them for it, and write letters about how good the crap is.

3) More general - perhaps there is over reaction. But I would rather see over reaction to this level of dangerous activity then no reaction at all. The posibility for governmental abuse of technology is astounding and terrifying. "Law" means little. We are already seeing our civil liberties eroded away under the pretense of "security", and what's more worrying, we are seeing people accept it as a good thing.

The first stages of totalitarianism are almost always embraced by the people, and are often scoffed at as "insignificant" by others. There is never an overt strike against the people by the govnerment. The people build big brother up...

Ok, I see your point.

I've even use that speeding analogy to try and rationalize smoking before, I believe I once said "you speed but you know it's bad for you, smoking is kinda the same with the added badness of withdrawals".

But about people not knowing that MS has a bad rep... I'm not too sure. Maybe the people I know (which I wouldn't consider geeks) are aware of the stuff MS has done in the past. But maybe the people I associate with that I consider to be the "average user" are a lot more savvy than most. If that's true then well *shakes head* ... I once read a rather arrogant magazine article that suggested we need to start soliciting licences to people before we let them use a computer, I'm second guessing my opinions on that right about now.

As for the whole "because it's illegal doesn't mean it won't happen" train of thought. I'd still like to think that to a certain degree the law would still apply, especialy to someone as big as MS. But maybe I'm wrong there too.

In any event, you've given me something to think about.

But I'm still not switching OS's, at least, not now. Like I said -- I'll vote with my feet if the time comes. But untill there's proof of what MS are planning on doing is anyone really going to listen to the whining of a few geeks?...

I've sent an email to a local tech magazing I subscribe to asking them if they could do some research on the situation and write something about it. I figure that's about all I can really do that'll have any real impact bar not buying the product if it is going to do what people say it will.

My main reason for concern here was that people seemed to be reading that article and switching OS's right now as if it was gospal.

How about we don't panic. Instead let's buy Lindows (etc.) and start supporting an alternative to MS. MS has us over a barrel. The question is, will they rape us or just invade our space a little? We need to have an OS that we control.



How ya like me now?

I'm a bit scared by all this to be sure. I like Xpirex's idea and that would seem to be the way to go if this should all come to pass. And for the author of the original article all I have to say is... fourthly is a word, but seventhly most certainly is not.

. . : slicePuzzle

Bigamus!!! where you been? I actually missed you!



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 08-01-2003).]

Mucho mucho busy my friend. I'm hoping things will be settling back down to some normalcy very soon

. . : slicePuzzle

I will probably be using macs when this day comes to pass...

maybe i should just shoot myself now.

heh.

We don't want to lose you, Izzay! Take it easy

quote:

---

But about people not knowing that MS has a bad rep... I'm not too sure. Maybe the people I know (which I wouldn't consider geeks) are aware of the stuff MS has done in the past.

---

I talked to a few people at the office at my work. The man I am sharing office with is a computer guy, so he's cool. But the lady I am currently working with only knows how to use her computer when it comes to her work related tasks. When I - waving energeticly with my arms to illustrate the Palladium issue - told her about the new "secure" Windows that could become a threat to privacy, she yawned and said she really didn't care. "Windows has always been so stable on my computer" she said. "Bad reputation? I thought they had good reputation!"
When I talked about all bad files that are coming into your computer every day, being saved in registry and as cookies and so on, her reaction was: "Cookies? What is that? I never emptied my Temporary Internet files. Do I have to do that? I simply don't care much about those things." Next day her computer was attacked by a virus.

Another guy at my work had about the same reaction as her. Looking at his watch while I was talking about it, saying he wasn't too interested - like I was trying to sell him Tupperware's latest invention.

Me myself, I know barely nothing about computers but I can manage my own computer rather well. AND I am the one people call for at my work when they have problems with their computer programs (when the computer techs don't have the time to come). People at my work aren't stupid, but most of them aren't computer people - they use their computers at work and know nothing about the inside of the computer. A privacy threat - like Palladium could become - wouldn't be more important to them than doing the laundry. Most people I know use computers VERY MUCH but are not aware of what M$ does or how they have become so big. They are certainly not aware that there are better products for free on the market.

So don't tell me Microsoft doesn't know what they are doing if they would try to "take over the world" - like someone in here put it. They could easily do it, because there are simply too many computer users that wouldn't care less, or wouldn't even notice.

~~Kartis - in Cell 1025~~

[This message has been edited by Kartis Shone (edited 08-05-2003).]

Ok, my take.

1. I'm a Windows user, plain and simple.
Why? I as well as almost everyone I know learned to use a pc with windows, I'm so very used to it, where to find things, change them and so on. Plus there are a wide variety of software available that has interfaces similar enough for me to be able to use them in a reasonably fast time. This since there are defacto standards on how an interface should be built in windows.

2. Do I like Windows?
Yes, and no.
Yes because I'm used to it and the availability of legal and free software.
Yes because it's everywhere and you can always get help when you need it.
No because it's everywhere by design and domination from it's maker leaving no real space for healthy competition that usually brings forth better prices and higher quality.
No because it's so damned easy to break it even if you know what you are doing. No because it is so frekkin vunerable to viruses/script kiddies and so on.
No because it bleeding always breaks down when you need it the most.

Will I stay with windows?
Not sure. I'm thinking more and more of setting up a linux box to learn more about it to get an opinion based on my own experiences. I'm also thinking of getting a Mac laptop for much the same reasons (plus I need a laptop and a reference Mac-machine for my work).
For now Windows will stay on my box, that desicion is mainly based on the choice of applications that I use and need. And no, right now I'm not interested in learning a new OS plus an emulator to use clones or ported versions of things I already have.

What about M$ future plans?
I've read quite a bit on palladium (a swedish magazine did a good walkthrough of the proposed architecture a while back) and as I see it the article posted in this thread is a worst case scenario.
That doesn't mean that it won't happen though.
However, regardless of our personal views/opinions of M$, they are NOT stupid... Face it, if they were they wouldn't be where they are today.

Sure they have done and will do several really stupid desicions down the line, mainly because they are so big it is difficult to judge the little peoples reactions. But don't forget, In a company as big as M$, desicions are as much political as business related.

This whole adaption of DRM (which is one big part of the base of Palladium) would never have come up if there wasn't heavy political lobbying done from the whole movie/music business. My take is that M$ does not dare ignore those very powerful forces, thus a political desicion has been made in M$ that in order to continue (and strengthen) it's position and goal to make windows an integral part in every household as a work/entertainment/service platform they have to cater to the entertainment business need for DRM in some form.

Then there is another factor in this equation, Since M$ is almost everywhere today it's very very hard to show increasing profit by adding new users to the customerbase. They know as well as we know that people in general lend their CD's with Win.X to each other as well as burn copies to friends instead of going out to buy a new cd if you need an install on a new machine.

Thus came the product activation in the XP family. Plain and simple.

Now, if they must enforce DRM for political reasons, why not use the same technology to cover software as well? A quite effective and rational solution since they have to use it anyway, right?

Then to the tech parts.
As I understand it Palladium lives in a corner of the system servicing the applications enabled to work with palladium/DRM, if an application is not Palladium/DRM enabled it will not touch Palladium.
Somewhat like this pic:

I'm not saying this is the way it really is, however, in order to stay in business, MS must provide a way for allaowing non-palladium/drm software to run on the computer. If not they will lose out on a lot of the choices that makes Windows a platform that people stays with out of habit.

Do I like it?
No.

Do I understand why they are doing it?
I think so.

Do I agree?
As a person, no
In a business sense, well, partly yes.

Do I believe it can/will be misused?
Is the Pope head of the Catholic church...
Hell yes, it will be misused, if not by MS it will be by other companies products and hackers. No doubt.

Now will I change OS?
Perhaps, time will tell.
/Dan



{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

[This message has been edited by DmS (edited 08-05-2003).]

quote:

---

From what I understand about palladium and DRM software is that it will be an OPTION. You can either turn it on or OFF.

---

So by the way microsoft works...On and Off mean respectivley that you can see it work and that you can't see it work

This is the scary stuff that the most diabolical alien/government control conspiracies are made of .

With power like this MS would be godlike and you know what tht means in any PC environment.
Forget that absolute power corrupts absolutely what about the first ammendment the freedom of speech and expression???
We have to crush their ego dreams fast and now thru enlightenment and the option of an alternative OS that can run on the existing PC platform we could call it peoples OS. I hear that OS X is porting to PC That would certainly do ok ( I ´ll have six copies please!!!
Another really frightening thing is that the not so computer literate are the bulk of the cattle that are about to be rounded up by palladium and hideously branded with the MS logo. with Bill gates laughing his way to the bank
what am I saying the bank will be going to him for money if this goes thru

STOP THEM NOW !!!!



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