Preserved Topic: Candy Bad (Page 2 of 2)

Sheesh, what did I start?

Jestah -
I'm gonna quote you here, hope you don't mind:
"I mean there isnt a plugin that does anything that cant be done using other photoshop filters"
See, that's why I used that particular image - I was trying to prove the opposite. There are filters that do things that you can't do with Photoshop's default tools and filters.
When I made that image, I wanted a reflection map for that extra bit of realism, since the symbol was going to be large (the original is 768px high, for my wallpaper). You can do a very convincing metal without a reflection map, using an airbrush, or distorted gradients, or any of several other tricks. But a reflection map looks very very nice on large images. I like reflection maps, when they're not overdone (admittedly, that image is pushing the limit .. it borders on gaudy).
There is not any way (that I know of) to do a physically accurate reflection map in Photoshop without a specialty filter; you'd have to use a 3D program (that's what shapeshifter is - a baby 3D program that plugs into Photoshop).
I was trying to illustrate that there are some filters that do things that just plain can't be done 'by hand' in Photoshop, thus strengthening my argument that not all 3rd-party filters are bad.
Not flaming here, just trying to explain what my point was.
Btw, what is DocCyber's URL? Sounds like someone who's work I'd like to see.

Darkgarden -
Your little metal widgets look very nice. What's your point? I was trying to show that KPT can make very impressive reflection maps, and that that ability makes the filter worthwhile. I didn't try to imply that you can't do nice metal without it, just that you can't do a realistic reflection map with just Photoshop.
I thought I was clear in my last post that I was talking specifically about reflection maps, not metal in general. Proving you can do some very nice metal (and those widgets are impressive) doesn't address the issue.
You would normally need a 3D program if you really wanted a photo-quality reflection map for a specific effect. Shapeshifter lets you get similar effects (albeit in limited situations) without doing any 3D modeling. That makes the filter worthwhile, imo, and that was my point.

Maybe it's just because it's late, but your comments above the photos sure look like you're flaming me (or at least mocking me). I don't think I did anything to deserve that.

I say again to the purists to whom '3rd-party' = 'crutch': if Lighting Effects was a 3rd-party effect, would you mock people who use it? What about Stylize

Dan:
No problem, like I said, it really was incredibly simple..that's why it's not as pretty..heh.

Bottom Layer, medium grey. Make a selection of it, make a channel using the standard gaussian blur effect over and over.

Contract your selection until it's very thin, fill with white, Select the bottom Layer selection again, and do a couple more blurs (that will make for the central "seams" in the image)

Lighting effects, mountainous, two directional lights, shiny and metallic, use the Alpha channel you created.

There's your base.

Next Layer, same selection, but fill with a lighter grey, do the lighting effects, making the light more intense. Set the layer blend to multiply, and adjust the curves, as well as brightness and contrast.

Duplicate this layer, and set it to Overlay to get a bit more highlight area.

Next Layer, same method as the last, but filled with black first, and then set to color dodge. Play with the opacity a little as well.

Next Layer, same selection, but this time have your foreground color set to black, go to EDIT>>>STROKE and stroke it interior with a few pixels....set to multiply, and do a gaussian blur (just a few pixels on the blur so it looks like an outlined shadow)

Then a colour layer for whatever shade you want it to be, set the Layer to soft light or overlay depending on what type of gloss you want. (Or using Color Dodge or Color Burn can be nice)

The Brushed texture is just another layer, filled with white, then Noise added, the brightness and contrast adjusted, then a radial blur done, and the Layer set to Multiply.

The irridescent "squiggles" are just a layer where I made the selection, stroked it, then subtracted, stroked again, then subtracted etc. Then used a Distort Zig Zag to screw around with them, then set to Dodge, or Burn, and the opacity quite low.

The reflection in the last one. Photograph, Polar Coordinates, Spherize, Distortion, Mask, Overlay.

Just that simple. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Hope it helps a bit. Like I said, take a little more than a few minutes, and you can have something that's gorgeous instead <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

Peter



ICQ:# 10237808

Oh, looky what I did... could it be that I'v egiven DG even more work to do for Guru's Network? c'mon man, thats an awesome effect, and you know it.

- Dan -

Das:
You must be reading wrong, or it came across wrong <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

I don't see third party filters as a crutch..I see them as a lack of proper control over what's being created at times. Like I said, your image is stunning, but not impossible by other methods.

Your comparison to "lighting effects" is valid. If lighting effects was thrid party, I'd use it...if it lost layer control in a large way for me, I'd ditch it.

Time is the key saver there, and it's the balance of what you save, with what you lose. I agree that there is a place for third party filters, but only in that I agree there's a place for 3D Max. Not absolutely necessary, but a hell of a way to save time.

None of my post was meant as a shot at all, or to mock your work. Just to illustrate that when OTHER people close their mind to other possibilities of how it can be done, they're cutting themselves off from becoming a more accomplished artist/designer.

It's the same argument I'd use for people who use premixed airbrush inks and saying it can't be done any other way.

DaVinci crushed berries to make paint to create what we can in Photoshop...So we know Photoshop isn't the only way.

As for the rest, write me off as a zealot who actually likes the idea of people learning from the ground up, instead of trying to hang out at the top before walking the stairs of knowledge.

<img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

(btw: you'll note where I said in the one post "..with design knowledge". I was meriting your skill, and the quality of the graphic, not besmirching it)


Peter

~clearing up the desk~




ICQ:# 10237808

Uh...DG doesn't need any more work thanks..~smack~

heh

As for the effect..it's not great..it's simple..but that was the whole point of it. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">

To lay my part of this issue to rest (after being annoyingly cocky <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/tongue.gif"> ) Third Party Filters can be a useful tool...or a useless hack. I don't care for most of them, due to listed reasons of control, but the ability to incorporate one into a well thought out, laid out, executed graphic or piece of art, is a skill of itself.


So there we go....open minded ambivalence..and ever the Devil's Advocate. Hoping desperately that the words "can't be done" get abolished.

Peter

for the last friggin time we hope..heh



ICQ:# 10237808

Hey, if you want, I'll write it for you, take screen shots of my work, put it all together in HTML, and sign YOUR name on it.

I'm offering this because I'm going to get tossed off the gurus network team soon, according to Pugzly, enless I can think of something to write a tutorial on. So I figured, I could just do it for someone else.

Yeah, I know, pretty sad. Especially since you'd be ashamed to have your name on something I did (you'd understand if you saw some of my work).

Thought it was worth offering though <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

- Dan -

I meant that the comments sounded like you were mocking my argument ("I know, anyone attempting to work any sort of realistic metal effect in PS without thrid party filters must be an idiot", etc), not my work. Sorry if I misinterpreted.

The image wasn't posted as a pride piece. Like I said, it took about 2 minutes to make (and 15 to clean up, add drop shadow, colorize the ring, etc). I made it while playing around to see what exactly KPT5 offered (result: shapeshifter does cool reflection maps and adequate bevels, and the rest of the filters suck :P).

I just get sick of people who think that using any non-Adobe filter is "cheating", or "not putting in their dues". Sure, if you use Layer Effects for all your bevels, and don't know how to use a layer in overlay or hard light mode to do the same thing, you did miss something.

But some third-party filters are not automated wonder-tools. They offer excellent control, and are roughly the equivilent to Lighting Effects or Stylize

~breaks the silence rule~
Dan, we'll see what we can do big guy. I can't leave another Albertan out in the cold <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">

Das:
See, I'm not a purist in that way though, or I'd be espousing my new website made entirely in MS PAINT...hehe.

No worries, hopefully the points all got across now.

Lots of ways to do things. Lots of reasons to do so. Lots of bad filter effects that should never be used again because they're just damned ugly. Lots of filters that deserve respect.

Ahhh....peaceful.

<img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Peter



ICQ:# 10237808

Haha Dark Garden, I wasn't completely being serious there. Like I said, my work, no matter how good the instructions are, would not turn out to be good enough to have your name on it.

About the cold.. yeah, it's startin to get colder here.. only supposed to be 22ºC tomarrow =[

- Dan -

Das:
I dont think using a 3rd Party Plugin is cheating, I just think most of the time its not a good idea. Like Dark Garden said you lose a lot of control with some of the different features. I dont see a difference between using the Lighting Effects filter or KPT's except you have a little bit more control with Lighting Effects. To me that image you made was fine. Whether or not use used KPT's in it makes no difference. It still was awesome. Theres just a lot of people just beginning who get there hands on a warez copy of EyeCandy and just goto town with the Fire filter. BTW, havent seen that lately. I miss it, sorta brings back memories. Most of the time you can tell a 3rd Party Plugin image from an image that didnt use it. In your case you cant. If you didnt say anything everyone would just assume you did it by hand, which I still think is very possible. Like I said theres nothing that a 3rd Party Plugin can do that cant be done with the standard Photoshop filters and tools.

BTW Dark Garden, why do you hafta be so amazing? Your like Bat-Man without the cape...

Jestah
ieJestah@hotmail.com
ICQ - 77252449

[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 19-08-2000).]

Maybe I chose a poor image to illustrate my point. I admit you could make an image that looks as 'cool' as the biohazard without KPT5. I just don't think many people could do a photo-quality physically accurate reflection map with just Photoshop's tools.

Ignore the overall image for the moment.
Look into one of the chrome pieces. You can actually see what the room looks like. See the reflection of the tile floor, curving just as it should in a real reflection in an object that shape? See where the floor meets the far wall? See how the square window is misshapen so accurately in the upper-left chrome piece? How would you do that with just Photoshop's default filters? I could do it on a pure sphere (just distort

I believe in using all the tools that are available. Use whichever method creates a better result. I agree with DarkGarden in that filters definitely lack control, but I'm not so rigidly against them. Then again, I'll probably never use Eye Candy because it's so overused and its results are generally ugly. On the other hand, KPT, BladePro and some others can create some nice metallic effects (or so they say, I don't have either of these so I can't say for sure). Use whatever works, but I think you'll find that the better designers do not use any third-party plugins.





[This message has been edited by mbridge (edited 19-08-2000).]

I guess it's time for me to put in a few pennies of my thoughts about third party filters...*sigh*

Anything that can be done in non-adobe-standard filters is theoretically possible to do without them.

That being said, lets move on to the side points:

1) Third party filters do what needs to be done in a matter of moments, rather than the seemingly endless amount of time spend without them. So, they're time-savers.

2) Creating an effect outside of third-party filters leaves a great deal of room for manipulation. As a professional graphic artist, I have clients I need to please. If they want something changed with an image that I've utilized third-party filters to create the bulk of, chances are quite good that I am screwed and have to start all over again. So, by that example, third-party filters are not a time saver, but rather a time-waster.

3) Many filters available (KPT, EyeCandy, etc) create effects that are overused and not really interesting anymore. If you wanted to see a pair of DocMarten's somewhere in the world, you wouldn't have to travel very far; ergo, they're really not that interesting anymore. In that regard, third-party filters aren't really useful in the graphic design world.

4) Continuing that statement, DocMarten's makes their shoes and boots in multiple styles with embosses, colors and other decoration on them to make them more interesting. Third party filters can be used to create the hard stuff and refinement can be added at a later time (though not much, granted). Ergo, these filters are good.

That's 2 for filters, 2 for the olde fashioned approach. So, the tie breaker has to be this:

5) If another graphic artist sees your work and can only see merit in the filters used, then you've not created a work of art: Kai has, or EyeCandy has. So, if you overuse them, you've taken the artistic control out of your hands and placed in a nameless large corporation.

So, the final score is 2.5 to 2.5. Shit. I guess the jury is still out on this one, kids. You either use them or don't. But as far as the professional opinion on filters goes, I'd try to stay away from them of you want to be considered professional. If you're doing this solely for fun and intend to not make any money doing it, you're just fine. Anyone can create a stunning image using filters, hence the metal biohazard logo. But not everyone can create four different metal glyphs that have the same shape and are easy to manipulate, and thank you dg for that.

The moral of this story is always eat your pancakes. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">