Preserved Topic: JPEG 2000 plugin

Yea remember that file format JPEG2000, Also known as JP2, JPEG 2000 it uses wavelet compression as opposed to the DCT compression used in standard JPEG. The end result is better image quality in a smaller file. JP2 also includes mandatory metadata such as information about an image's colour space.

Get it plugin for windows or mac HERE at Fnord Software site.

Info a day late.....(sorry) from creativepro.com

COPEY

So, we not have png and j2p file formats that are better quality and lower file size as compared to .gif and .jpg yet we are not utilizing either format in the web fully yet?

Yeah, I see little use for JP2 at the moment.

If I want to save a flat image file with colour space information then I'll be using Tiff's or PNG's. Mainly because the support for these file types is a lot broader. Besides, with the current size of HDD's and cheap CDRW drives the saving in space is only really useful for web delivery and well, the lack of support once again rules out that possibility.

The only real use for JP2 that I can see would be for delivering a lot of images on the web with a special purpose. Say like a university image library that also provided a download of the plug-in. That would enable dial-up users access to high quality, gamma correct images without suffering any major bandwidth issues. Even then it would likely prove to be a big pain for the tech support people.

If you need a plug-in to use something chances are it?s not really worth using unless it?s really really important and popular.




[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 01-16-2003).]

Yeah, the key phrase here is "at the moment". Right now? Nope, no point. For mass delivery you need standards no matter if they're good or bad. For specialized formats, there are already good formats (TIFF, PSD, EPS, etc.) The real key here is to keep an eye on weather we see a shift in the standards in support. We're going to start seeing a shift away from JPEG over the next couple years. Not so much because of the format faults, but because it's getting expensive for people to liscence the file format. Companies like Adobe can afford to use it, but I'm seeing support dropping off a little in recent edditions of smaller applications simply because it carries an inherent liscencing fee (i.e. it's a copywritten product).

Is the solution JP2? Maybe... my understanding is that it's an open source format, so it would be free from those restrictions, and with the industry offering many good open source programs (anyone heard of GIMP? hehe) there may be more of a lean towards open source. Apple has made a big push to open source development. Both X11 and with their new Safari browser are good examples. Microsoft has SAID they're going to "beat out open source". I find that hard to believe but then again, it's Microsoft so you never know. Historically speaking they've simply bought the better software and melted it into their existing line. Either way, we should see more open source formats available and becoming accepted standards.

We've had some tenuous support for PNG, which is really too bad as it's a fairly robust file format. The really sad thing is that we're actually getting LESS support for it and not more. e.g. in IE 5 for windows there was wonderful PNG support... in IE 6 for windows it's almost non existant. And like it or not, IE is still the big man on campus. (I don't mind personally because it's actually just NSCA Mosaic with a microsoft skin on it, just like netscape 7 is simply mozilla with a new throbber).

Something to consider too is that with specialized needs might come some new type of file format that could knock everything off the shelf. I keep hearing about SVG this and SVG that. A good example of a targetted file format, but based on need and design rather than proprietary corporate programming (aka, GIF, JPG, and even PSD).

Am I telling most of you something new? Probably not, although some people may not know some of this. My point I guess is that while there may not be a need for it now, if there is a good file format (like say PNG) and more people are attempting to use it then maybe it will catch on. I remember a few years ago when people would say, "Flash? WTF is that? I don't want that on my site, no one will use it". Now it's everywhere. I even remember when JPEGs were thought of as a flash in the pan file format that would never replace GIF. As graphic designers and web developers, I think just about everyone here can see the need for a high quality, small size, feature rich graphic format. Hopefully we'll see that become a standard soon.

$0.02


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

I agree I think SVG will take off...



Maskkkk

- Face the Present

Not much has been said about the microsoft monopoly in a while (2 or 3 weeks).

But SVG would take off, PNG would take off, however, microsoft conciously decides not to let them take off, because it is not monetarly adventageos.

Microsoft controls 86% of the browser market as of my site statistics last week, with that k ind of market share, they are the ones who decided what makes it. The .FUCKYOUPROPRIETARYLOSERS file format that microsoft encorporates into its next verion of its browser will be the next big image file format if and only because microsoft has control.

It's true that proprietary formats have dominated the market due to provider monopoly (hell, that's why JPEG and GIF are standards... does anyone here remember that the full name is Compuserve GIF89? yeah...anyway...) Microsoft does control the market share of the industry, but there are two things going in our favor.
1. No proprietary microsoft file format has every become a MAJOR standard. Yes, BMP is a standard for windows graphics, but they had to cowtow to JPEGs eventually they don't render really on browsers, and mac needs a special translator to read them...so I wouldn't call it a standard.
2. While they can support or not support anything they want... if enough people really want to use something, it will become a standard. There is no internal rendering support in any browser that I know of for Flash. Flash is a proprietary open source format (yeah yeah I know...). The reason it's a standard is because people used it. They used it so much that it became the defacto for vector graphics online. You STILL need a plug-in for it to work correctly with a browser.

Another good example for the concept, although not an image format, is java. Microsoft in all it's bluster and bravado announced (mainly out of spite) that "windows will no longer support java, period." ... well, they try not to by no longer shipping or providing a JVM. Does this stop sun from making one? Nope. I hear these two things concurrently all the time. "Windows doesn't support the JAVA VM anymore, so you have to go download it directly from Sun." heh. Nice try MS.

I think the Hitchhiker's Guide lists it something like this "Microsoft is big. Really big. Really really big. So unimaginably big..." etc. etc. etc. Don't panic, the standards are still swayed by the people using them. If something gets used enough, then it will become a standard. Another thing to think about is that MS can effect standards on the web with it's browser, or standards on it's own OS by support, but there are lots of industries that contribute to these standards that don't even USE Microsoft products. You don't pay $1.5 million for an offset press and expect it to run on windows. hehe. And no matter what people tell you, Mac is still a very strong player in design and development. Yes, ~25% doesn't sound like that much market share, but when you consider that most of those are production computers and the numbers in graphic arts are more like ~75% market share, it's still something to consider. Plus, with mac adopting BSD as it's core you've got two of the major MS rivals standards concaconated. Not trying to turn this into a platform war, just something to think about over your morning latte.

$0.02


It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

MindBender - You gave me a bit of an idea. Maybe it has already been done. Is there a way to make a plugin for IE that would allow .png support? Something in a similar fashion to flash. You embed a little code into a page that would prompt the user to download a .png plugin? Has this been done yet? How would one go onto to futher support this cause?

Sure, assuming you're a software developer... you could write a plugin that added itself to the file helper list. For me, things like BMPs open in IE using the quicktime plugin... so it could work in theory. The question is, would it be more useful to build a plugin or simply switch to a better browser? Mozilla 1.x is a very nice browser (fyi Netscape 7 is just a 'oem' version of mozilla again). I'm not a software engineer, so I don't know about building the actual browser plugin code. Any software engineers in the house? hehe

Actually, if you really get down to it, lots of things are handled with plugins. Browsers really are just rendering front ends for markup... which is why they were built with plugins in mind over the years to allow for new technology.

-=-=- EDIT -=-=-
Just thought I'd pass this along as they were vaguely related, interesting resources...
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/PNG/inline-alpha.html

http://www.libpng.org/pub/mng/
http://entropymine.com/jason/testbed/pngtrans/
http://www.w3.org/Amaya/User/BinDist.html


Something else I'd just like to point out... I mentioned the WinIE issue, but the latest version of MacIE isn't any great beast either. Here's the reason, Microsoft has taken it apon itself to cause headaches for people. While they had NEAR PERFECT PNG support in IE 5 for both windows and mac... IE 6 windows and IE 5.1x mac now have limited or NO support for PNG. This is not a software development issue... this is Microsoft being spiteful. I still use IE because it simply has the fastest rendering to memory footprint ratio for mac os 9, it has some of the widest plugin support, and it's generally got good rendering and scripting support. I like the features of some other browsers better (tabbed browsing in Mozilla is just cool). I don't know the story behind Safari, but my initial tests with in in OS X have been VERY favorable. It's fast, quick loading, easy to use, and full featured. My guess is that it's a port of Amaya, but I haven't check closely enough yet. This would follow along with their latest push for open source.

One of the things I was looking at (since I have a ton of browsers installed...) was testing support on some of those afore mentioned pages... I got mixed results. The problem I'm finding is that the render order for PNG seems strangly implemented in most browsers. One will do great transparency support, but no gamma support... while the next will support gamma but not full transparency. IE Mac is an every WEIRDER beast... I was able to get full transparency support at times, but you can actually change the way the rendering engine works by hooking it into ColorSync and using system color profiles... this gave me some WACKY gamma reactions. So my quest at this point is... does anyone have any browser that fully supports it? I'm not sure... I'd love to find a browser that's cross platform that supports it. Opera maybe? I tested with version 5 and got good transparency but bad gamma. iCab is the same. I'm looking to see what other browsers are out there... there was a petition on one of those pages to get IE and NS to support PNG... for whatever good it would do.

This has been a thorn in my side for a couple years now, basically since I started hearing about PNGs. I'd love to hear if anyone has any good browsers to recommend as well as experiences that people have with different browsers. PNG works, it's a good format, SVG and PNG could have some very good applications if they just got supported correctly. *sigh* We'll see what happens I guess.

-=-=- EDIT -=-=-

Well, apparently I lied... while gamma isn't working correctly in MacIE 5.16, transparency seems to have been fixed. 5.0 worked, then 5.1 ? 5.15 didn't work.. but now we're at 5.16 and it seems to be working again. Gotta love that intermittant support. *sigh*



It's only after we've lost everything...
That we're free to do anything...

[This message has been edited by MindBender (edited 01-18-2003).]