Preserved Topic: I apologize. (Page 1 of 1)

OK, I am sorry for not inclucing the link to the site that I had wanted everyone to look at, I hadn't realized that with all the confusion in the beginning with my sig.
I also apologise for not taking your critisisms well and acting childish when faced with uncalled for bashings.
My only excuse for my ignorant behavior was that I am a newbie at web design and recieved tons of comments from the community that the site is designed for.
I have learned all that I know in the last two months and only as I go.
As far as this url, http://members.xoom.com/CK_72/
It was my first attempt at designing a layout in photoshop and cutting it up and writing the code in Notepad. So yeah it is a bit lame. But It was my first one and it is cross browser compatable.
After the confusion due to my lack of providing you with the correct url, here are the comments I will comment to. (we all posted some very childish comments and I am letting it all go, except these.
1.SewerRat does not = CK. Sewer is a cowebmaster at The Rogue Spear Database.
All those (in the RS community) who had viewed the new page at http://umm.roguespeardatabase.com liked it. I asked him to look at this forum. After recieving so much negativity.
2. Mikey Miller posted "we'll just drop the issue of being too stupid to support multiple browsers ..." Yes I do lack the knowledge to come up with a coding alternative to an iframe. My graphics couldn't support a repeat for an expanding layout. Frames wouldn't have worked either. Mikey, why be so insulting in your posts? I didn't get nearly as insulting at anytime during the topic save the response to your outlashings.
3.Mikey: "let's just focus on how much the site sucks asthetically...it sucks. it sucks bad." Why be like this? It isn't that bad in most peoples opinions, not for someone who has 2 months experience.
4. Jestah, I did make EVERY image in the layout except the chain and the hook on the main page. The "enter" page is a screenshot of a "map" from the game after I had added numerous concrete objects. The Crane on the "enter" page was a real pic at one time that I had to make a little less realistic to match the rest of the screenshot. So in essense I didn't create it, but I had to touch every aspect of the pic.
And once again, Sewer does not = CK. you can find evidence of this at http://www.roguespeardatabase.com
5.mbridge posted "damn, that's really lame sewer rat"
If anything was lame it was the unwarranted bash at Sewer, who was simply trying to say what I had forgotten to.
6. DL-44 posted at threads end, "I'm gonna go get IE just so I can compliment your graphics and design skills"
I guess I ask what is wrong with IE? I can't even think of one site that says "page best if viewed with NN at 1024x768.
Imagine how fucked I would've bee if I would've designed it for NN.

So with the apology offered I retreat having embarrassed myself with argueing over a mistake. I have read thru your comments and will take all the feedback into consideration for future work.
I am a beginner and made mistakes in design and will learn from them. I think that in the future it could be helpful to others if you offered "honest/encouraging to do better" replies and not "bashing/give up, your stuff sucks" replies.

i'm basically going to ignore everything you said in that post, because it's still a bunch of nonsense.

for some time there i honestly felt bad that i initially posted a rude comment towards you, i figured maybe i was just being out of line and overreacting to your poor attitude and comments.

i came back to the forum, planning on offering some form of appology.. only to discover the rest of the people from the forum here agreed with what i had to say to a certain extent.

next i ask for the thread to be closed, because it's really getting old and nothing good is coming of it...

i was hoping to drop it and hold no ill feelings for anyone, but here you are again.. and you need to learn when to just shut the hell up.

and i don't even feel obligated to explain to you where i'm coming from anymore with my comments, because you're either closed-minded, dense, or just plain rude.

maybe you should try coming back in a few months... give yourself some time to develop social skills, perhaps even work on your web design a little more too.

that's all i know, and this time i'm sticking to my guns...

cheers.mikey.milker

Wow, I should hang out in this part of the forum more often! What a crazy thread.

CK, sorry to say this, but at the start all of the comments to your design was rather polite, (with the exception of Mikey, who is known to not pull any punches!) You seemed to degenerate almost immediately into name calling and negativity, and guess what? The comments you received became ruder. No offense, but you brought this on yourself. The comments on the iFrame were spot-on, you really should never eliminate a big hunk of your audience, especially when you don't need to. Stats on browser usage can be skewed by making it not *work* in the other browser, that will make it so you get no visits from that one, dig?

Here's a rough series of stats, from the last 260,000 unique visitors to my site...

MSIE 5.x - 168833 - 64.8 %
Mozilla 4.x - 40045 - 15.4 %
MSIE 4.x - 28446 - 10.9 %

That stat in the middle, that's Netscape. This is a stat from a pretty high-end site (mine), with visitors who probably match your demographics. So, by this measure 20% of all your visitors will be using Netscape. Do you honestly want them not to visit? Your call.

PS: I'm using Netscape right now!

Your pal, -doc-

CK: There was no "uncalled for bashing" given at anytime. You asked for critisizm, we supplied it. My replys to your six things your not going to let go...

• SewerRat may not be you but its apparent that he certainly is your lacky. There is no need to have a friend go into a forum who has never posted there before and defend your work. We gave honest comments if you wanted comments praising you, next time ask SewerRat what he thinks.
• Mikey is known for being a jerk. Thats just the way he is. We all except the fact because deep down inside we know hes a scared little boy on the net. He does give a lot of great opinions and adds a different perspective.
• How can you say you made EVERY image in that layout if you admit to not making the chain, hook, craine, & enter page? The only other image in it then was your cheesey buttons that anyone could make, which didnt even fit your layout all that well.
• Was not mbridge right? Was what SewerRat said lame either way? I would never think of having a friend come to the forum and defend my site because no one liked it.
• There is nothing wrong with Internet Explorer. However, there is something wrong with limiting your audience so bad. You might not think so but there are a LOT of people who use Netscape. The Doc just said hes on it and Im on it also. Why should any viewer have to download or switch to a new browser because you did not take the time to make your site work in multiple browsers?

Your final paragraph is just stupid. You offer an appology but still list six things that you will not forgive? All valid points by us also. We did give you an honest review. Theres not question about that. No you will never see something like "l33t0 w3b s1t3 man ..." If theres something wrong in your website we are going to let you know, otherwise what is the need for a review?

umm.. if you coded for netscape, you wouldnt have a problem at all. code that works in netscape, as far as HTML and css goes, almost *always* works exactly the same in ie. i cant realy think of a time where it doesnt work...

btw, i have seen sites that say "best if viewed in netscape".

you tell him la!

Well, I actually didn't read the other thread in detail, but I'll just mention to those of us who come here often, even if someone *does* act like a jerk, it *really* doesn't help to insult back. Please, as soon as someone gets mad or defensive or aggressive, just drop the whole thing. It's really not that hard to do with a little practice... we could have avoided the whole thing if we had just ignored the insults that were made to us. (As my mom says, "It takes two people to have an argument.")

CK, even if this just ends up being another huge fight, I recognize that you're new to design and you will improve over time. Please do not be discouraged if the comments you recieve are negative; instead, learn what you need work on, (even if it's everything!) and keep at it. Chances are, you'll get something better the next time around.

Not that I'm siding with anyone here. If this is something that we have to take *sides* on, well, then it's kind of a waste of everyone's time...

HMM. Here we are again. I still haven't looked at the site, and at this point I won't, because this obviously is no longer about any site.

Nobody is going to bash you for being a newbie! Nobody here is an elitist! What you must understand is that everyone here takes there work seriously, and they'll take your work seiously too. If you ask for opinions, you will get them -- GOOD AND BAD.

And we will address all issues that we deem fit, regardless of whether you say you want opinions on just one part of it. Why? Because websites are not made up of only one part.

I'm unsure if your post was an apology (as the title states) or a defensive attack <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/confused.gif">

Any-hoo, we will all (except maybe mikey <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif"> ) be happy to critique any work you may post, offer advice, offer help, whatever you may need.

BUT -- if you walk in, with your two months experience, and then tell everyone one here (some of whom have been professional designers for a long time) that they don't know what they're talking about......well, you lose <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">





Ask for opinions At Your Own Risk!

CK did NOT ask me to come in, or anything of the sort. He remarked to one person in the chat I generally reside that he had posted it on the Ozone forums, recieved some bad comments, and totally embarrassed himself by acting like an ass to people who gave him negative comments. I decided to check out the forums to see what he did.

I did not defend his actions, because I felt what he did was uncalled for. I mostly posted to clarify which layout he wanted suggestions on. I did defend his use of an Iframe on the site however.

Also, as I posted in the other topic, 96% of all visitors to any of the Rogue Spear Database sites (hosted sites, forums, etc.) between Sunday and Friday used IE, and a fraction of those would be the hosted sites, so there wouldn't be many people having trouble with Netscape. These stats are according to our Hitbox counter.

The IFrame was something that was decided to do after I talked with him. He didn't want to lose the detail and variation he put into the orange border, so he did an IFrame, which I also helped him code a bit. He does not know much HTML, and putting it in a table would require quite a bit of work. After seeing the comments here, I might actually try doing it FOR him...

I am NOT CK. As he said, I am a co-webmaster of Rogue Spear Database.

And Jestah, the crane picture was NOT a stolen image. The one on the enter page I beleive was a picture drawn over with the paintbrush to make it fit into the screenshot more, I beleive, and everything on the page with the actual layout was done himself. Perhaps CK can be more specific, or post an in prgress pic - this is the first version he showed me: http://members.xoom.com/CK_72/ck_crane.jpg

"Can't we all just get along?" ...seriously though... I am relatively (well actually 'very') new around here. I just wanted to throw in my two pennies worth... (even though it maybe somewhat 'dangerous').
I just think that if someone asks for a site review, they should be more than grateful that the folks around here would actually spend some of their time to review it and then bother to pass comment back here (regardless of good or bad).

Isn't the whole point to get an honest opinion (s) from our peers?... well it is for me and thats why I joined this forum... it can ba hard to hear criticism of ones own 'graphics/design' etc... but hey...thats life..some people will like and others won't!

Plus, at the tisk of repeating myself (oops), you ask for a site review here at the forum purely because you are getting some of the better designers on the webs opinions.

Phew..that feels better.... just had to air after reading this and the previous closed thread <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif"> ~later~

~Vp~