Preserved Topic: Religion - What has it come to? II (Page 1 of 2)

Continued from

HERE

Maybe we can do this without a fight...that will be a first .... but let's try

~I believe in God, I just don't always trust the ground personnel~

Doc, I took a decent look at the link you posted. The so-called abuses the Bible has undertaken over the years are known to scholars. You advised us to read the page with a grain of salt while considering the author... consider it done! Phew!

This is a typical approach that adherents to a religion will take to discredit another contradictory religion. The fact is that the Bible we can all go to the store and buy is simply incompatible with Islamic doctrine. This is why a page like the one you posted exists. It has to explain to you why the Bible can't possibly say what it's actually saying because if it does, it means Islam is just as unsupported as Mormonism. In fact, Mormons take a very similar approach to contradictions to their doctrine that are found in the NT. They say that there has been tampering with the original documents or it has been deliberately mistranslated by unscrupulous clergy.

I read through a couple of the main objections raised there and I think some very good rebuttals can be made to them, as regards to the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Let's just say that it is a pretty standard Christianity versus Islam confrontation and one that has been raging for several centuries. Funny how little some things change even over such vast amounts of time.

Well, one of the things that I did as a kid, made some of my "religion" teachers quite unhappy, was I actually READ THE BIBLE. Made bookmarks, underlined stuff, read it again with a highlighter in my hand. It's a good read once you get the tempo of the language used in your head. (Why were my teachers unhappy? Most of the priests and nuns had never actually read the darn thing with a critical eye, if at all. I think I may have been a Jesuit in a past life, heh. Can you say "awkward questions?" :-)

It *is* funny, there's a few chapters that are obviously way short, so much has been cut out that they make little sense anymore! Looked at from a historical perspective, it's just a book, a 1900 year old book, with lots of high emotional content associated with the... content! It only makes sense that certain liberties have been taken and mistakes in translations made over the years. The link I posted is of course a biased view, so I urge you to look at the information produced and ignore the conclusions drawn from them, conspiracy fan(atics) can also frequently dig up the right facts, it's only when they come to the conclusions that they lose track! ;-)

Insider, I tried reading through your last post, maybe you could start a new paragraph every now and then? My old eyes go woogly with big blocks of text like that! My dad taught me that as soon as I stop for a moment, that's a good place for a period, and if you gotta lean back and think, time for a new paragraph. No offense, just an observation on my part.

So! Bugs, you're going to make me dig up my old King James and find some examples, eh? My current bible is not that old tattered one I got in school, but I should be able to dig up some references to back up my claims.

Oh! Concerning Catholic school, is it really that bad? Here's my story, I started in first grade, I could already read, and I knew how to write. Problem was, I was LEFT HANDED. Believe it or not, they cured me of this tendency with a ruler across my knuckles, now I'm a righty. Took a few years to break me of this (evil?) habit, but they did it.

Your pal, -doc-

Doc, I wasn't saying the discrepancies don't exist. In fact, I know the King James has some errors in it. I was just saying that the way the guy on that page was representing things was messed up. He was of the opinion that the Quran was clear without error and the modern Bible had all these contradictions and Allah would never allow something like that.

I read that somewhere on his page where he said that if the Trinity was true then Allah would have said something like, "The Trinity is true". If it is a doctrine that is derived from several different verses then that was just too vague for his taste. But in fact the doctrine of the Trinity is *never* specifically mentioned in the Bible. I'm positive that if you went back 2000 years and mentioned it to Paul of Tarsus, he would look at you pretty funny. Yet, the NT speaks of three separate entities being God. Go figure.

Anyway, if you get the time to dig up those glitches in the King James, please post them because it would be cool to review them.

The best reading is the greek text. Get a bible that will interpret the sentence structure the same way that it reads without converting to english. A big difference in understanding why they recorded in Greek.

The closest translation that is true to the greek is the New American Standard Bible. This Bible was translated with all the information that was availiable in modern times. The orig Greek is the only way to go though. Big difference in Greek sentence structure and English.

This is why My family is dedicated to restoring the first century faith that was built on the heels of the tabernacle and old testiment law and why the greates event ever recorded was the walk of Jesus. Even if it was fiction, it was recorded in the history of a people and is the greatest encounter with another force and way of life mankind has ever experienced. So coming of the heels of this great event is where you will find the power of this faith. By returning to that time belief i think is where the greatest strength is found in this understanding. Pop has got some intersting ideas on this subject, fun stuff to listen in on.

You might here a conversation like this

The physical counter part of the Bible and its parrables is the hyragliphics in Egypt. No coincidence that Egypt is where a people started there journey out of physical and emotional bondage. The hyrogliphics are what parrables are. A set of symbols or meanings that have to be un-locked. This is the ying-yang-or light -dark principle. Hyrogliphics = Egypt-Physical senses and physical dominance. The Bible = spiritual or emotional struggle. They both prove the other exist as counterparts.

There was a boy in egypt that was born with the ability to decipher the carved images. This was a gift and he unlocked a differnt way of looking at symbols. This happens in the Bible also. There are those who where born to understand the complex stories and find patterns and common faith foundations. This book of symbols was also written back when this power of faith was strong in life style. There is a mystery to something that contains great wisdom and still confusses intelligent non seekers.

The Bible is an awesome journey-trap-filter-enlightener. All the spiritual principles of spiritual faith are mapped out in the Bible. Anyone care to take a look. Ill show you some of my beliefs. At least put my spin on some ideas and see where it all leads.

Maybe some here might enjoy solving mysteries or traveling into other ideas. Sort of like a painting, we all like to paint something different even if its the same image. Ive seen some good conversations get past the shock and encounter phase to actually find common ground in who we are and what we like to experience.

Just a spir of the moment thought. I should think about this post a bit before i send it.

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.


[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 10-11-2001).]

Doc, you nailed that one. One big thing in the Catholic church is that they have a "correct" interpretation of the bible, individual study isn't really encouraged. For whoever it was that asked in the last thread (sorry, i'm too lazy to look it up at the moment) Catholicism in my experience is more concerned with the rules and regulations than God, can't see the forest for the tress kinda thing. The power of Christianity is in the personal relationship part, not the religion part.

Apok, interesting stuff. I'll give it a better read later when i'm not so sleepy...

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

http://sinfest.net/comics/sf20010929.gif
(the guy has a point)

mahjqa, yeah, that's a good one alright.

Apok, are you describing a modern version of Gnosticism?

Not realy
It is true you need to understand certain knowledge to put all the pieces together. But this is all exposed in the journey without straying to far from the scriptures. I havnt study Gnosticism enough to understand it fully so I cant say much.

I believe the bible teaches in layers. The first trip thru the bible will add some foundation. The second time thru will build on that and add some revelation and the 3rd time thru will start to open your eyes to hidden meanings and advanced revelation. This was my experience

This is the third progression principle that is found in the tabernacle. Those who dont get it and walkes away will miss all the hidden doors. The bible would make an awesome mystery game.

Of course you have to be dedicated to learning before you even start your journey. The bible was written in such a way so that you could build your knowledge slowly. One of the cool things about the bible and how it was written is that the same passage can have 3 levels of understanding attatched to it. A new believer is seeing the scripture one way while another believer is seeing another perspective built on the first foundation layer.

Most bible readers havnt a clue what there reading and will have to take a big leap of faith to believe that a man could live in the belly of a whale. But that simple odd story has major foundations of how certain energy works inside your soul and unlocks some mysteries that confuse people.

While most scientist are disecting brains and biological tissue.

Who is mapping out how the energy of the emotional world works. How does offense work. Well the bible tells you how it works. It gives you an example of what it looks like in history then shows you how the power base of that energy works. I find it odd that more christians havnt found this. It is so obviouse once you open your mind to it.

Like i said my dad is convinced that the bible is the manual on how our soul is wired and maps out what the power bases are that everyone uses every day. You cant respond to a subject with zeal-ego-kindness-hate-offense-love without using one of the power bases discribed in the bible.

To some there wierd un-believable stories. To others there a treasure trove into how your soul works in detail. But they are parrables or a learning that requires dedication and commitment. Probably why the bible gets such a bad rap all the time. Those who get nothing out of it are the ones throwing the real understanding out the window and condeming others for believing in far fetched jibberish. I say to each his own, just look deeper it could be life changing.

So Gnosticism up to the mind over matter stuff. then we leave that up to the new age christians that are gaining popularity. Im trying to reverting back to first century faith and belief and study from that knowledge. Thats where youll find my dad and thats where i want to be also.

Incredable understanding coming down from jacobs ladder.

I find it funny that many are probing the stars for a close encounter when the intelligence of life itself has already contacted us in the form of a teacher and a Holy Spirit. The orthodox Jews are still waiting for a messiah and the scientist are looking for a radio signal. Yet history has recorded the day of penticost. Talk about right under our noses.

I hope im not annoying everyone with my ranting on this subject. If i get to rediculouse let me know. ill be posting this stuff on the web site for those interested in what this understanding reveals to me and what others are saying also

. Im not sure how far you all want to go with a faith post or a religeouse post. Im waiting for the attention span to fall any post now. I am dedicating a web site to it though, which is probably the better place for me mouthing my opinions. Im still not sure how far you all care to go on this subject which is so broad in interpritation.

Thanks by the way to all the great PS stuff . Now that i have the program i can now see what you all are saying about its power.

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.


[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 10-12-2001).]

Here?s my take on religion, be it right or wrong: Religion is man?s answer to the unknown. Man can?t stand not knowing something. We are the supreme being on this mudball. We are the head honchos of this planet and no other being has come along yet to take us down a few pegs. So we are pretty full of ourselves. We create, we destroy, we create some more, we destroy some more. We are so doggone superior that it is hard to fathom that we may have been some cosmic accident tweaked by a few million years? of evolution. There has to be some reason for our existence, there has just got to be ?

What happens to us when we die? Man has a tough time thinking that maybe, just maybe, nothing happens. Worms munch on us and we fertilize the grass. That?s hard for man to swallow. We think, we reason, we create, we destroy, and yet when it is all over, it is just ? over?

So the idea of a spirit world of some type develops. Cavemen thought that spirits ruled everything. Don?t tick off the spirits! Do what ever you can to appease the spirits!

Spirits became gods. God of the sun, God of the moon, God of thunder. All of these Gods were seriously worshipped. We might think of Ra, the sun god, as just another god in the history books, but the ancient Egyptians sure didn?t laugh off Ra. It was some serious business involving human sacrifices. History is full of civilizations that took the worship of their particular gods very very seriously. Much more seriously than many folks nowadays treat their own religions.

Religion evolved over time. Yup, that?s right, it evolved! As mysteries of the world and cosmos were solved, religious ideas had to adapt. Will religion always be around? Probably. I just can?t see a way for us to satisfactorily solve the mysteries of our beginnings or of our end. As long as these mysteries haunt us, man will come up with explanations from his infinite imagination. I would love to time travel far into the future to see what religion evolves into!

I apologize if my thoughts kinda rambled here. I just wanted to offer my 2 cents. To summarize: man created God(s) in order to fill in gaps in his knowledge. As we got more knowledge, religion had to adapt. The chances of our solving all mysteries are slim, so there will always be religion to fill in the gaps.

Have a nice day!

BeeKay
Murphy's 50 Laws of Combat Operations
15. Teamwork is essential -- it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
19. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

I guess it all boils down to individual experience. Even though i havnt experienced much in life at the age of 17, i do know without a goal in life i have a harder time trying to maintain what i did manage to obtain.

My goal is eternal life. If it exist i will find it , if it doesnt it gave me a purpose in life and taught me diligance. In todays struggles we all need a purpose in life because diligance is needed regardless of belief. In the end we all will know the answere to eternal life. it will be a thumbs up thumbs down or nothing but a bright light that fades with brain activity.

You cant touch intelligence only feel it. I cant believe that dimension of life is abstract . I think this level of life is obtainable and have faith in the experiences i have known to be the light to that path. You have to admit humans have been removed from the animal kingdom and have an uncanny ability to leave the planet. in body and spirit.

I carry that responsability with diligence, my body might feed the worms and grass when i die but my spirit isnt controled by gravity or scientific principles, so it has a destination as well.

Lots of questions to life and hopefully a full life to answere them.

Apok




If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

So, Apok, are you affiliated with any church? Or are you guys "doing your own thing" so to speak? Just curious. My church has roots in the Restoration Movement that began in the nineteenth century in this country. It strove to get back to the "first century" church too. I know you've mentioned that goal several times.

I'm curious to know more about where you are coming from just because of the unfamiliar language and terms you use so often in your posts. You speak of energy, third principles of the tabernacle, and things like that. It may be that all those terms are only referring to the same things I would accept just that you are using different names for them.

I'm still looking forward to that web site you say you're going to put up

[edit]added link to more info[/edit]



[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-12-2001).]

Yes, individual experience plays a huge role in each person's belief. I grew up in a household that was apathetic towards religion. I wound up finding my own way to my own beliefs (or lack thereof) over time. Other folks have a particular religion spoon-fed to them since childhood, and once reaching adulthood, those folks just stick with what they know. My wife is that way. She was raised in a Southern Baptist home and she now is Southern Baptist. But I firmly believe she is Baptist strictly because that is what she knows and feels comfortable with, without any REAL knowledge to back her up if challenged. When I question her (which I don't very often, because she gets real upset) she falls back on "faith" as her answer. Unfortunately, it's a hollow faith I think. When it comes to religion, she does not think for herself, which is the same position I think most people are in. Herd mentality more or less.

Ever wondered what you would believe if you were born to a different family or in a different time period or in a different country? I would bet you would believe in whatever was prevalent in that situation ... and yes, that goes for me too. I am just glad I am who I am where I am ... if that makes any sense. I'm comfortable with my atheism. It's even kinda fun to see other folks' reaction when they find out hehehehehe ...

BeeKay
Murphy's 50 Laws of Combat Operations
15. Teamwork is essential -- it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
19. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

i was curious about that too bug (church affiliation). Some of the stuff you mention sounds suspciously new agey Apo, which I'm sure you're used to hearing

Beekay, I have thought about cultural/environment impact on faith, it presents some interesting arguments. For places that are predominantly another faith (mid east/asian countries for example) you tend to find that the people there with other beliefs have VERY strong beliefs and strong attitudes towards evangelism, and they also tend to see greater moves of God than other places. Makes you wonder how many people would practice what they do if it wasn't allowed by law Personally, I grew up catholic, and I'm now a non-denominational Christian with a whole lot better understanding of what i believe and a much stronger faith. go figure

chris


KAIROSinteractive

My dads church is not affiliated with any church. He was taught Assemblys of God. He left that religeon when he became fluent in Greek. Greek opened his eyes big time and realized the Assemblies of God had major flaws in its gospel.

My dad was born with a gift and that gift was teaching. And the first thing he understood was the 3rd progression parrables that taught 3 levels of a mans journey through the tabernacle.

Which according to him is
Waking up to evil and repenting=The outer court
Wake up to good then userping knowledge=The inner court
Then finding peace from the tree of good and evil=the most Holy Place.

You come out of the bondage of Egypt which is your first experience in life. (where i am right now , without a voice or experience. All i know is what my parents taught me). In this bondage i have felt lost and not in control of my life.

Then you experience the wilderness (teen years), you shed egypt by a wilderness wandering and then enter life itself on your own (young adult). Here is where you walk into cannin or the inner court and learn goodness, but there are big obsticles there. Giants.People and energies who want to control you like Goliath.

People who say your not good enough bright enough goodlooking enough. You learn a differnt life or energy here when those giants attack you. So in the outer court you learn to serve others. In the inner court you become like those who say good is good enough and my life is mine dont walk on it. Then you realize that good is just good with evil intentions.

Then another understanding enters your soul . The need to find rest from voices you picked up in the outer and inner court. Now the goal is the most Holy place where internal peace is found. The 3rd progression.

This 3rd progression understanding is found all over the bible. No its not new age but its not modern christianity either.
Instead of Holy Spirit my dad uses energy. Its easier for intelligent men to understand that way.

You have to remember the bible was written so peasants could believe. Today we are so smart as a society , some of those simple explanations need more substance for todays believers.

So Jesus would say "pick up your bed and sin no more. In the first century all would know what that means. Today you will get people who think thats a litteral translation or just plain silly . when all Jesus was saying was take your broken life , get back up and use my teachings to heal your mistakes so you dont repeat your troubles.

I know that was a simple explanation but thats why my Dad uses todays knowledge to say the same thing. Old sermons and rebukes dont work in todays society, which is why people cant defend there own belief. To mant thees and thows and not enough real understanding.

No im not new age. But im not modern either. The first century is where the truth was buried.

Read the historical events of Josephus, a jew that was hired by Rome to record the events of the times. Then read Mathew 24 and ask yourself what happened to the jews in 70 AD. You wont be looking for the second coming if you understand what happened up till then.

Did you know in the book of acts, jesus was seen by over 500 people. And this was after his death. to many that was a second coming in the flesh followed by the Holy Spirit on the day of Penticost. The modern church refuses to believe that event was the filling of all prohpecy. But we know different.

Its always good to examin the facts of an event when they accured. Not what others hundreds of years later thought they ment. Know whats odd. most doctrins where created when you had no way of compiling credable evidence. Someone had a brain burp and then got others to believe or they took the King James bible which is a poor translation of greek at best and created doctrins. If those same people had access to the orig transcripts they would have thought out there ideals a bit mot intelligently.

Question everything.

Fig im not offended with new age, we have new age christians in our church. There slow to come around but they are smart people and there getting it. Read the metaphysical Bible it will make you wonder about what we call new age.

Apok

My web site is www.gospelvisions.com
Its under construction. I had content on it but got the thumbs down from the parents as to strong and opinionated, so im starting over.

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.


[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 10-12-2001).]

*cough*

creating lies from truth, obfuscation, turning evil into good, blurring the line between good and evil...

Does anyone else here think that good and evil are differnt from each other.

I think there one in the same. JOB found this out the hard way

I would much rather deal with evil men who wont hide there motives then deal with good men with cunning deceptions. I know where evil is when it speaks, but the most cunning creature in the field is the one with good intentions with cunning motives, you havnt a clue what will blind side you from that situation.

Good and evil has one root.

Anyone want to defend good as not evil. Whats everyones thoughts on this idea.

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

You need to define the concept of good men with cunning deceptions before I dive into this one. I consider myself a good person and I'm not planning any cunning deceptions, but then maybe I just don't comprehend where you are going with this.

Took a look at what you have up so far on the site .. looks promising. Will be interested to see some content. What was so opinionated about what you wanted to put up? Just curious ...

BeeKay
Murphy's 50 Laws of Combat Operations
15. Teamwork is essential -- it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
19. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

No difference between good and evil??? If this isn't a trick question, then, ummm... yeah there's a difference.

Example: Killing the people in the WTC was an evil act. Killing the people who perpetrated it will be a good act.

If you don't agree with that, then I can't wait for the explanation. And how does what happened to Job support your assertion?

I guess what i was saying or should have said . Does anyone belive that good and evil are the same tree with the same root and can influence anyone in either direction.


Can an evil man love his own child (evil doing good). While a good man covets his nieghbors wife (good doing evil). And is that proof enough that when the bible talks about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it is the same tree with the same root with 2 outcomes that are closely linked to one another.

Can a good man do evil as described by that parrable.

Just wondering what you all might have thought on this subject seeing as Allewyn sort of sent the topic in this direction.

Hope i interpreted that right Allewyn. I f not i didnt mean to insinuate that you changed the course here.

Come on believers whats your spin on the verses that discuss this understanding and how do you deal with that.

This is always a very missunderstood belief of a believer that good is good enough.

Sorry for taking over this topic, Im usually coming from christian chat rooms where the dispensationalist are racking me over the coals most the time. Tough crowd.

I should get some lunch before i come here and take that atmosphere of defending my faith with those that arnt very christian at all. I dont believe in a devil but i sure can raise cain from the other side of the fence there hehehe.

I dont mean to bring those thoughts here.

Well as far as my web site. I am very convinced of what i believe and that comes thru loud and clear sometimes. Seeing as i have my own web site, i guess i got a bit focused on all the end time crap being preached right now and it showed in my opening page.

Its gone and pop was right. You cant alienate others just because your the landlord.

Maybe this topic has run out of steam, or morphed into something else.

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

OOOOHHHH! Well, now that makes a bit more sense. Thanks a bunch for clarifying that, Apok.

Yes, I definitely believe that "good" people can do "evil" and visa versa, no doubt about it in my mind.

In fact, just yesterday a very good friend of mine was having a problem. It seems he had gotten drunk and done something very bad that could have ended up with consequences even worse. He had seriously pissed off a good friend of his as the result. I didn't ask nor did need to know the details. But he said something that shocked me. He said that he had always considered himself to be a good person that couldn't do what he did. Now he's doubting whether he knows good from evil because of this incident.

I believe that every single one of us must struggle against the darkness in our own lives and in the world *constantly*. As soon as we let down our guard then evil steps in and does its thing.

Now do I think that the Tree of Knowledge has anything to do with that concept? I'll have to think about that but I've never linked the two before. I believe that story was much more concerned with the fact that we have been given free will.

Apok, I know what you mean about dealing with some dispensationalists, calling them a tough crowd is an understatement

It's very important to be clear in your posts and some of your earlier ones were leaving me foggy. This last one was much more focused and I really appreciate that. Now get back to work on that web site, I'm still anxious to check it out

Thanks for that advice bug. I need that input from the older more experienced friends.

I havnt the great writting skills yet but im trying.

I know i have some differnt spins on the gospel, but ive been pickeled in a great philosaphy since birth. My dads library has over 5,ooo books all related to the history, geography and philosaphy of the hebrews.

I think my dad can read the bible backwords from memory (just kidding)

Its a great atmosphere if you dig this stuff.

I do have a lot to share. The web site is still in the figure out how to do it stage. Im learning tables now and how to use them so i can add text to cells without throwing images out of wack. lot to learn.

Bug Great sig

Apok


If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

There is very little black and white in the real world. It's all shades of grey.

On top of that is that I believe good and evil are concepts created by us humans. Those concepts can change over time and from place to place. Too many folks have their thinking trapped in the here and now ... in a very narrow point of view. Things you might consider evil might not have been so evil a decade or a century ago. Things you consider evil may be perfectly acceptable in another country in the present time. Is abortion "evil?" (now there is a can of worms hehehehe, care to open it?)

Is being kind, paying your taxes, never cheating on your wife, and living a normal "wholesome" life good? What if that typical "good" person happens across a man trapped in a burning car and he doesn't try to help because he fears for his own life? He's got wife and kids at home, and he has no desire to leave them alone by risking his life for someone he does not know. Is he suddenly less "good" ... is he possibly even "evil" for allowing a person to burn to death?

So does good and evil come from one root ... or whatever? No. Everyone has their own personal definition of good and evil. Many parts of those definitions overlap with what others think, especially within ones local community, but there are infinite combinations of what is considered good and bad according to each individual. Society gives a broad definition to good and evil. Am I making any sense? A tree of knowledge of good and evil ... no I don't buy that at all, sorry ...

Shades of grey, buddy, shades of grey ...

BeeKay
Murphy's 50 Laws of Combat Operations
15. Teamwork is essential -- it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
19. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

Interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing that.

I have to disagree with your point of view though. Mainly because I believe this principle can be understood and understanding this parrable is key. I see no grey areas only enlightenment and understanding to a belief, i can defend my understanding with sound principle.

We all have seen the cartoon of the devil on one shoulder and an angel on another. These spirits or energies do exist i believe. You have an inner engine that runs spiritual emotions and this is what we call the root of a tree that produces 2 kinds of fruit or free will. What determins the flow of that energy is your free will. It doesnt matter if you live on the good side all your life. The fact you get tested severly in times of trials is where the real understanding lies. Do have enough control over all your emotions to guarantee you wont kill at the tested time of snapping and freaking out. Well understanding this parrable assures you wont.

Now tapped into this root that is directly connected to your spiritual engine is your decision trigger.Now you can respond any way you want to a situation , but your will has to decide which path to take, and when it takes that path it produces an outcome. This is a physical response to cause and effect. And the pathway is a root which finds its way to a branch which produces an outcome or fruit. This is free will and the outcome of your decision making

Your entire life is controled by your will and 2 choices "right + wrong" according to your belief, which is why the tree has one root 2 branches and 2 fruits.

Why is this important to me, well because its a predictable pattern, and this spiritual engine that is controled by your will was all revealed in the bible by men who understood the spirit of life better then the science of it.. I find that intersting


This foundation allows me to reason why im faced with certain situations and can determin a logical outcome. Now the key is to wire your thought patterns so that you trigger the right respone to an outcome you believe in.

We all do this and understand where in the field of making decisions. The bible reveals this principle so you can over come addictions and a lifestyle that you might not want. Its a cause and effect principle that is GODLY and freedom from its grip starts with understanding this tree principle. By the way the tree symbol was used because GOD speaks from natural events which everyone understood. When you said root in the old country, it was a universal understanding. Some times my dad uses other modern means to discribe how this principle works.

I said all this because im saying understanding the principle of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you can answere more questions why your faith works . A poor understanding and wrong equasions will cause more questions, which adds to confusion.


This is what my dad calls the boil down aproach. You keep adding elements into your faith that answeres questions, If what you add starts to confuse things, then back off and try another understanding. If your hunting a GODLY principle it will work out to perfection. Science does this all the time, If a theory is sound a scientist will get it to work using sound principles.

Well those are my thoughts

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.


[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 10-13-2001).]

Beekay, I'm curious whether you would have any difficulty characterizing the events of 9-11?

We (including myself) consider the event and the people doing the deed "evil." That is our perspective, which is shared by much of the country and the world. The terrorists behind those horrible acts consider us evil and see their actions as good. (Of course, I'm doing a little assuming here, since I have not actually met any terrorist connected with this event.) Could we grab one of the folks behind the plot and convince him his ways are, in fact, the evil ways? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Is those one of those shades of grey I was talking about? Hmmmm gotta think about it. Just not enough information to go off of. Looking at the surface, the enormity and severity of the event sure leads me to believe this is one of those few stark "black evil" situations. However if we were to dig into the layers of all of this we might see some grey around the edges ...

In every conflict, it is assumed that there has to be the good guys and the bad guys. Always remember: History was written by the winners who wrote for themselves the part of the good guys.

Whew ... much too late at night to be writing deep thoughts ... time to go home and get some sleep ...

BeeKay
Murphy's 50 Laws of Combat Operations
15. Teamwork is essential -- it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
19. Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

We teach evil isnt the physical act or the results.
evil or good is the choice your will makes in order to reach your goals. No grey area there

Knowing the paramatures you use shure helps in making good,evil choices.

You could use the fruits of another tree called the tree of life where all your free will acts are governed by. Its a tree all on its own with one root and one branch and one fruit. Its a constant principle. The fruit looks like love-compassion-Patience-mercy-understanding. These fruits have no equal and cant be stopped or corrupted. This parrable is key to a believer. No grey area there

Remeber the garden that had 2 trees. The garden being your soul and the trees bearing fruit after there own kind ( all the attitudes you picked up in life that have strong voices). Choose carefully here. When you reach into your bag of attitudes what comes out. What tree do you choose to nurish from.

Had OJ been a practising christian he wouldnt have had to secumb to his ego-pride-hate. He could have forgave. He wasnt forced into killing innocent people. Lack of spiritual understanding destroyed his life.


So our christian faith says good isnt good enough, you get tested and eventualy fail. Non believers do this daily. You must choose fruits that cant be corrupted, this is what truly seperates believers from non believers. Believers using this principle are using energy that is centuries old. Another great parrable the church world has forgotten or put out of reach.

The true course of a true christian or christ like spirit is to eat the fruits of the spirit which assures life and is fundimental for a peacful spirit. All else will find grey areas they cant understand. I didnt say that the bible did.

This is a true teaching of the first century and one principle that has been waterd down to a gospel that has no power. The modern church is lazy in there execution of true faith. Real christians have an awesome attitude and are a joy to be around. You can always trust what they say because of the fruits that govern there life, they never fall. Pagans are moody , you trust em one day and lock your house the other. Lots of grey areas there

I think predictability is found in all principles if you study them enough. Use em dont abuse them.

great topic. I hope to get some constructive feedback from the more experienced believers. Am i way off base or can my thinking lead somewhere.

Thanks

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

Well, guys, certainly don't want to rain on your parade, but...about religion...Hmmm...not much to say, there. That's a personal topic, I'd say. But to the question of good and evil...there is no good or evil. Doesn't exist. To those who doubt it, just take a good look at nature. Not a sign of good or evil in nature. Just natural laws. I do, however, believe in positive and negative energy. That does exist in nature, and (IMHO) is also pre-dominate in human behavior. However, one shouldn't get the notion that positive=good or negative=evil. That is namely not the case. These are just 'descriptive' words, used to describe properties of the energy and how it flows. It is also true to say, that life demands a balance of positive and negative energy. I believe that the natural state is 50-50, but because of flows (meant as influences) this 'balance' fluxuates.

My hope regarding religion is, that someday Mankind will leave this belief in a higher being behind, and finally accept that Mankind itself is responsible for itself. Without this 'crutch', I believe that many of the injustices, or problems found in the world (of humans) will then have to be dealt with. When Mankind finally achieves real unity, or acceptance, I believe we will finally be ready for what's out there (in the universe). I mean, think about it. What alien race would rationally want real contact with us, when we can't even come to terms with our own differences and problems, let alone attempt to come to terms with something totally different from ourselves? Of course we are monitored, it's only smart to keep tabs on such potentially dangerous beings. I'm not sure how Mankind would handle having absolute power in the universe at the current level of 'cosmic' awareness. How easy would it be to wipe out beings we consider 'evil', when one could do it, say, with just a thought ? I'm not suggesting that we have such power, but if we did, or somehow in the near future obtained it, could we be responsible enough to exercise it? I think not. Just my comments.

Interesting
I believe in GOD and your entertaining the thought of aliens :-). Let me also add that those who dont believe in good or evil are a small minority in the earths population. The rest are fully convinced it exist.

I guess thats why the world is so dynamic. The question i think that is relavant, is our beliefs causeing us to better understand life or just cope with it. But thats just me.

I find what i believe answeres all my questions. I like that
Im just glad that we have the ability to believe in something and then see the results. All my beliefs are based on principles that are found in this universal soup we called emotions.

Good post and an opinion i hear quite often from non believers. Let me also say that the bible is a great treasure trove of principles on how pos=neg energy works not just exist.

I think a new look or approach should be given to the bible. Its not a religeouse book. it was turned into that. But the reason it exist is to help understand these forces within your soul. You know that place where emotions dwell. Just a reminder that most have been lead to believe what the bible says without any investigation on there own. And most have believed it is a religeouse book without hesitation.
Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.


[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 10-15-2001).]

WebShamen, just how are we to regard your use of the word "injustices"? I apologize for my weak mind and crutch oriented approach to life but it's hard for me to not equate injustice with evil... or is this just a flow of energy in one direction or another?

Seriously, are you saying that if 99% of the world were loving each other and striving for each others happiness instead of their own selfish hateful desires, that we would need to "balance" that with 49% more "negative engergy"??? When can we ever have too much goodness?

Bugimus - I am a little confused.

quote:

---

Killing the people who perpetrated it will be a good act.

---

I guess I just don't understand how such an outspoken christian can say that. Whatever happened to 'turn the other cheek'?

I don't believe "turning the other cheek" applies to me allowing countless more innocent lives to be taken needlessly. This includes Afghan and American life by the way. Bin Laden and those who agree with him want to bring about a 7th century Muslim medeivalism that includes women as property, torture for trivial offenses, stoning for premarital sex, etc.

I just heard on the news for instance that in Nigeria, a 30 year old pregnant woman has just been sentenced to death by stoning. Under the Taliban rule in Afghanistan, an unmarried woman found pregnant is to be buried up to her neck and then stoned.

DL-44, I know we've covered this before and I've done a lot of thinking since then. In fact, I've been having some very intense discussions with fellow Xians about this very topic. Killing people with our military is not something I take lightly and that is why I can make a bold statement like the one you pointed out.

St. Augustine laid out criteria for a "just war". Here's the basics:

"Catholic teaching holds that war may be declared if the cause is just, if it is led by a legitimate authority and not guided by revenge, if the results do not produce more evil than the good sought, if it is waged as a last resort, if there is a reasonable chance of success, and if the goal is peace.

A war that meets these requirements must, once under way, avoid excessive force, the teaching says, and seek to avoid damage or death to innocent parties"

DL-44, you know that I believe pacifism is an extremely misguided position, bordering on evil itself, because it does *nothing* while innocents are slaughtered by aggressors. I simply cannot accept your interpretation of "turn the other cheek" to include allowing innocents to die like that.

Let me say this before I kick this back to you, that a Christian that I respect highly explained to me how he operated when he lived in a somewhat dangerous section of the world as a missionary. He told me that he carried a gun with him when he was traveling with his wife and children with full intention to use deadly force to protect them. When he traveled alone, he traveled unarmed.

I think this is where I am drawing the line too. If Bin Laden walked up to me and attacked me personally, I may respond quite differently, but to allow him and those who agree with him to continue this carnage on innocents cannot stand.

I'm very interested in your response.

My spin on turn the other cheek has nothing to do with defending yourself , but everything to do with falling prey to operating in the same curse or energy or evil.

If you live by the sword you die by the sword. Notice "if you live by the sword". That deosnt mean you cant defend yourself if attacked, if you live with peace as your companion then peace will be your reward. What that means is live by the fruits of the spirit and dont get caught up in bad thoughts.

My dad has trained in the martial arts for years and has taught my sis and i both to defend our life. He does it for exersice with a purpose. To extend physical life, But be just. Dont go looking for trouble and use it as a last resort.

To many christians are taught differntly.

True christians can walk thru life without worry because of another understanding. This understanding is one of the spiritual tools where given as christians to protect our soul or spirit.

Ive seen this principle at work first hand and is humbling to witness.

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

Ahh, Bug. Justice, injustice, these are human terms, they don't exist in nature. Never heard of an animal complaining of 'injustice'. Do you think the lamb feels it is an 'injustice' to be slaughtered by the wolf? Nature has checks and balances. A 'natural' sense of justice, if you will. Oh, yeah, there can never be enough good? Depends on how you define 'good'. Good for Mankind? That's not necessarily good for life, the universe, nature, etc. No, good, evil, it's always a perspective thing. Doesn't really exist. Just different ways of viewing the same thing.

Apos...never said that I was an unbeliever. How did you come to that conclusion? Just feel that belief is a personal thing, not to be found in books, priests, churches, etc. Within oneself. I do find your system of belief to be interesting, tho. Finally, people are starting to investigate the Bible with intelligence, instead of just believing in what is written. Taking a look under the surface, so to speak.

By the way Bugs, I share your opinion on Afganistan. Would be interested in your view of the Bible. Do you take it literally, or subjectively? And how much of it? The old and new testament? By the way, energy flows, always, it's never really static. O.k. at absolute zero it doesn't move, but that's because it doesn't exist at that temperature. Or perhaps I'm wrong? In any event, all actions result in energy being moved. From a thought, to very large explosions, all involve energy moving. How, in what direction, and to what extent the energy moves is largely dependant on the influences and effects of the surrounding environment. This is what makes chaos theory (IMHO) so interesting.

BTW, this is a very interesting thread...love the asylum.

Yeah, just read through the first thread 'religion I'. Never thought I'd say this, but...damn, twitch, love your philosophy on life! Would be very interested in how you came to this point(s). Much of what you said, I deeply believe in, came to these conclusions by evaluating my own life experiences, and just looking around me at the world (have had such great luck, being able to see, live, and feel in much of the world and its countries. Only africa and antarctica are not yet on the list. Trying to change that...hmm...well, we'll see what the future brings). Have read the bible, many different versions, just wish I could get the complete translation of the dead sea scrolls. Hve read the koran, the book of the hindu, confucius, ghandi's teachings and other 'great' books, but never really found something in these books for me, or directly just for me. So instead I looked to life itself for inspiration, and went my own way. Unbelievable what kind of resistance I encountered in people (or unacceptance) as I travelled (and continue to travel) this path. It took a hell of a long time to get here, to the asylum. Really like it here. So many interesting, but different views and beliefs, and most co-existing peacefully with one another here. Thanks, Doc.

I share bug's opinions on war, and I think one thing that those who attempt to quote "turn the other cheek" as a reason to avoid war forget that in many circumstances in the Bible God sanctions war. A little something to read if anyone's interested, there's a prof at UT who writes a short-story style article for a college webzine. Some of it's a bit cheezy, but he does a good job of breaking down Biblical principles, even if you might not agree with them. This one has something to do with what we're talking about.

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

Webshaman
Sorry
I didnt mean you where a non believer , just that a lot of non believers feel the way you do about good-evil. Its just energy that has to be balanced. After reading your experiences i say excellent job in educateing yourself in understanding.

Our church boils down our belief this way.
All of us was born with free will. This power is based on being able to use all the energy that the universe has available in the spirit realm, or energy realm however you name it. All the energy is there. Its called the tree of knowledge of good and evil and its a tree called the tree of life. These are the symbols of this energy. This is the garden spoke of in Gen. This garden is the power base of all energy. You free will is in a candy store of right and wrong.

Just like our backyard garden. It has a soil with all the raw ingrediance to grow what ever seed you plant, plus it has the ability to mature that fruit so you can consume it. This is exactly the parrable behind the garden in your heart, only that garden grows emotions. Now just like a good farmer you nurish, weed and tend the plants you like in your garden. We do the same thing in our heart. Anger as a seed is just a small outburst, grown to its full fruit it kills. Thats what it was ment to do, its the seed of anger. The problem is where bad farmers and dont know untill its to late that the anger plant we nurished will turn on us. This is where we need a better farmers understanding.

Now how do you rid this garden of this plant that drops seeds and consumes the garden which consumes you. Simple you root it out. This is the teachings of jesus. He comes into that garden that is out of control and plants the right seeds that wont grow up to usurp your garden but gives you fruit that is eternal. That fruit will always bring life to your soul. You cant do it because you dont know how, you did what you thought was right only you hadnt a clue what you where doing.

As we grow and use this energy where amatures at it and make many mistakes.
Some of us take the seed of anger and nurture it till it becomes an energy or spirit we cant control. Every chance we get to operate in this fruit gives that fruit more power or drops more seeds in your heart that grows up in numbers you cant control. This is a perfect progression from nothing to something. Then where introduced to the correct way to farm this garden. The problem is where alredy operating in a false understanding because where given this ability to interact with lifes energy from day one.

This is the entire walk of the old testament. Good and evil is at war back and forth untill the first century. Im angry (evil) but i can control it (good).

Then an understanding is introduced to the earth that has the perfect knowledge of being a heart farmer. The problem is this intelligence doesnt trust you because of the terrible job you did on your own. so a new spirit is introduced and a new teacher. This is the born again experience.

Now jesus or the perfect farmer shows you how to correctly plant and maintain lifes giving seeds. Once you are fully learned and tested in this knowledge a cool thing happens. The omega shows up and with fire destroys all thos bad seeds, and then a packet seed of love -kindness-compassion-patience is planted in your heart.

This is what we call right standing in the garden which will nurish eternal life in our life force we where given in the beginning as free will.

I hope that made some sense. I know in my 17 years and being in this enviroment since day one. I am light years ahead of understanding my emotions then my friends.

My minstry as a youth pastor is helping young people understand the myths legends and abuse of the bible. Like i said the bible is the manual that explains why you feel the way you do and allows you to correct those feelings so your emotions dont lead to suicide or ego status. I have to lead my age group with testimony and life style. You cant tell others what to do you can only posses an attitude others want.

Thanks for letting me share that

Apok


If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

Hey Apok. No need to apologize. I wasn't offended. Interesting philosophy you have there. Or Belief, if you please. I wonder if you could come to many of these conclusions without the Bible? Because of your few years (you're relatively young) I would suggest that you attempt to gather as much experience (real experience) as possible. One can intellectually learn a lot, but only experience can really be felt (IMHO). IMHO experience is the real teacher of life. Would love to discuss things with your father. Think you could get him active here at the asylum?

Bug - satisfies my question I suppose.

Obviously you know far more about your religion than I. It's just not what was presented to me as christian philosophy when I was young.

And I have too often seen (insert religion here) hijacked to support whatever cause someone may feel needs support, which leaves me awfully skeptical.

It also adds amazing support for my belief that religion is nothing more than placebo and should only be used in moderation

My dad does visit here once in awhile. I think hes letting me do the talking right now to get more exposure to the normal lifestyles of the other side of life.

The understanding my dad has given me was formed and experienced over a long period of time. The gift he has to interpret the bible has forced a lot of debate. But his ability to put people back on the road of life is almost 100%.

My dad doesnt teach religeon he teaches recovering lifestyle. It just happens to be the christian philosaphy. He doesnt look at the bible as an opinion , he looks at as a tool to teach yourself the purpose for life. He says most teachings in the past was just dry boring jibberish used for forcing people to tythe or to scare the hell out you.

He looks at it this way. Its a road map and guide for us to understand the spirit world without 8 gazzillion opinions. If you let the bible teach you what it means you will understand it 100%.

My dad can take your testimony and situation in life and find a story in the bible that exposes your emotional state and then lead you back to a stable lifestyle again.All because the bible has mapped out every emotion you have, could have, and should have. I know people scoff at this but ive seen this understanding at work and can do the same thing myself.

It works . If an idea bears itself out and then works you keep that as a tool of undersdtanding.

All my friends are walking towards this understanding and are the top students in school, are finding there natural gifts and walk with a confidence that is unique to our age group.

This isnt speculation , this is realtime experiences.

Ill see if my dad wants to chat with some here. Hes not into rediculouse opposition though. If you want to debate or discus his faith or understanding you have to bring tolerance and an open mind. If your just posting to vent an offensive energy that rises up because you cant handle anothers understanding he wont respond. But if you are willing to discuss differences in understanding with patience and respect , hed respond to that.

To often people are taught a certain way from a bad teacher and call it good. It doesnt take my dad long before he can read you like a book. All he has to do is recognize your attitude to certain situations to know what you believe. He says pagans are predictable and easy to read, and hes right . once you have some great foundational truths as your guide you can see right thru self will.

DL whats your experiences with christianity?

I appreciate the tolerance to my post in this forum. You guys have been kind :-)

Apok



If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.