Preserved Topic: Religion - What has it come to? II (Page 2 of 2)

I am skeptical of your father's approach as described by you. If I read that all correctly, then it seems that your father starts off under the belief that there is something wrong with everyone and that all people are on the wrong path, and it's his job to set folks on the right path. Now, I can't refute the "evidence" that you have personally witnessed, but that approach sets off alarm bells for me right away.

I have been approached by my fair share of folks trying to tell me that I am worshipping the false gods of money and possessions ... that I have an empty place inside me ... that I am searching, but I know not what for ... and quite frankly I truly and wholely believe all those arguements are total bullshit. I like to have money, but it is not my ultimate pursuit in life. I am definitely not a person who worries about possessions ... just one look at my car will tell you that I am not searching for anything and I am POSITIVE I have no emptiness within me that needs filled.

*cough* Sorry ... the above paragraph may not apply to your father's style, but I had to get that off my chest, excuse me ...

But, going into a discussion, debate or whatever with the upfront assumption that something is broken that needs fixed immediately shuts me off from whatever the person is trying to say. You said: "My dad can take your testimony and situation in life and find a story in the bible that exposes your emotional state and then lead you back to a stable lifestyle again." What if I feel perfectly stable? What then? Will your father find instability anyways?

Yeah, I know this sounds antagonistic and all, but folks who assume there is something wrong just irk the hell out of me ...

Can I ask a simple question of you Beekay? What IS the most important thing in your life?

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

Beek
My dad only helps those who are looking for help. If you think your lifestyle is fine and works for you then nothing is broken in the eyes of my dad.

You dont see doctors walking the streets looking for disease, you first have to walk into the office with symptoms to a problem.

Im sure you miss-read my post. Ill have to go back, but i dont think i said everyone is sick and needs help, if i did i miss placed my knowledge. sorry

Keep walking the path your on, if theres treasure there youll find it.

Apok



If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

Family comes in first place. My wife and kids are my world. It's not the most harmonious world at times, but I love it nonetheless.

Second comes enjoying life, which is often in conjunction with the family. Example: I left the Marine Corps after 12 years because I was starting to hate getting up every day knowing I had to go to do a job I hated. I am proud I was a Marine, but the job I had just plain sucked! It's a horrible life if you are wishing each day would hurry along and be over with. I now have a job I truly enjoy. Folks thought I was crazy to leave the Corps. They said I just needed to hang on a few more years and then I could retire and move on to something else then. No. I was not going to be miserable for a minute longer than I had to. Do what you enjoy. If you don't enjoy what you are doing the move along!!

And third comes knowledge. Understanding the world and how it works should be a high priority for everyone. Once the kids are grown a bit more and don't need us parents quite as much, I will head to college at night and get some more education. Right now, I always feel that I just don't have enough knowledge ...

Well there ya go ... the world according to BeeKay cause ya requested it ...

(edit: Apok, no worries. I guess I did misread your earlier post a bit. So, he helps folks looking for help, but he doesn't actively search out folks to "save." I can respect that)



[This message has been edited by BeeKay (edited 10-17-2001).]

Beek
There are enough corner preachers telling everyone who passes by there going to hell if they dont change there ways. Thats a nasty way to waste your day in my opinion. Going around telling people there wrong, sounds like a good way to get your nose broke.

My dad fights this poor evangilistic nonesense daily. The reason he is as effective as he is ,is because hes sensative to what people think. He might think your wrong but he will never tell you that. He respects the walk of others to much to point fingers.

There are enough doing that already.

You sound like your on top of things.
How was the Marines?. I have a lot of respect for the military.

Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

wow. this world really is messed up. i felt unsure about it before, but after the events of sept 11th, i'm sure of it. i found the fact that my friend hannah and i were seriously considering moving to ansterdam with her boyfriend (my friend) because this country is so corrupt....the fact that we were REALLY thinking about this the weekend before the attack was VERY ironic.
but really... bombing afganistan really sucks. how does our messed up country (and *cough* <-------that person) really believe that peace can be obtained by bombing the little people. they attacked our nation's 'innocent'(or not so) people because of how cruel our government was towards them... i rest my case i guess

nifkitty was here...

"but really... bombing afganistan really sucks. how does our messed up country (and *cough* <-------that person) really believe that peace can be obtained by bombing the little people. they attacked our nation's 'innocent'(or not so) people because of how cruel our government was towards them... i rest my case i guess"

What have we done to them? Peace will never be attained, but if you don't support us retailiating, you need to get the fuck out of the US. None of the 1000's of people that died in the WTC ever did shit to afganistan, or osama bin laden, I hate to tell you. Just because were wealthy, doesnt mean they get to blow our shit up.

nifkitty! Reve! Let's move this to a new thread. This one is already very long and we've got an excellent exchange going on religion.

I'll go ahead an start a new one with the topic close to what nifkitty started... ok?

Thats cool

Way to go BeeKay! Yeah, I left the Air Force after 11 years, was just sick of wars, know the feeling, everybody thought I was throwing away a sure thing. Must say, my life isn't any easier, but at least I'm not killing people anymore (and nobody is inspecting my stuff, telling me how my dresser drawers should be arranged...). Love your last comment, Life sure is an interesting thing to explore! So go out there and learn! (but don't do too many Shrooms and Polar Beer!)

Ahhhhh, it's nice to know I am not the only one to get out of the military after going over the 10 year mark. I have to say life is much easier for me. I'm home every night! That's the big thing. I was deployed on a six-month float aboard the USS Bataan in the Med for 6 months. Shipboard life is no fun and it is even worse when you know your wife and kids are having just as rough a time without you. Besides that, I was constantly being sent off on various exercises and standing duty and being kept late at work ... it just got real old!

Apok: military life is a good thing for a single person who wants to get away from home to learn a bit about the world. I never regret having been in, but I do wish I had gotten out after my first six-year enlistment was up. I highly recommend the military to anyone who has no clear goal or skill in life yet. Military life will help maturity and experience quite a bit! Just think very carefully before signing the contract for any consecutive hitches!

The original goal of this topic seems to be sputtering ... time to close it? Anyone have any new input to provide?

I have friends wanting in. Im not a military type, even though my dad has trained me well. He doesnt inspect my room. thank GOD

I sure am glad we have the best when it comes to a military. I sleep very good at night knowing there are special forces watching our back. You might get a shot in with cunning sneak attacks but once the world sees where not going to take it well do fine in the long run.

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

Yes BeeKay, I do. For all those who are religious (different from believing in something...), Why do you feel the need to believe in God, an afterlife, etc, in the form of a religion? I mean, think about it. Don't you think that this need could be better served by getting to the roots of what causes this need? I think it is just fear. Plain and simple. Not asking you to doubt, just think. 'Why do I have this need? What causes it?' No explanations from holy books, but good old honest thought and insight. Any takers?

Webshaman
Whats wrong with using Holy books especialy the bible.. What is the fear there. I know very intelligent men and women who fully understand what is written in this awesome book. Not only is there history , theres a philosaphy that works and something else that is miss understood. The bible was written by a number of men in different times in that history and all say the same thing. what is the chance of anyone in the same generation understanding the same thing , never mind stretched out thru hundreds of years.

Alexander the great was predicted in the bible long before he was ever born. Along with other events that where acuratly predicted.

The non believers are running around with opinions ideas and crazier ideas on what life is all about then true believers who know. the nons have us believing we evolved from ape.

Run around if you must , but there are some of us who just smile as confusion rains supreme. That was predicted also. I know the religeouse crowd has destroyed the spiritual understanding of the bible , but that doesnt mean the true jems of the bibl arnt real.

I know exactly whats going on and live that as a truth. Plus i teach others my age this understanding and have many testimonies of lifes restored.

All your going to get with nons are battles on whos opinions are right. I teach my age group the folly of this dillusion and show them how to find the truth. Its not that hard to do.

And given enough time they get it. I had an indian friend who walked into our church 2 years ago. His life was destroyed, living on the streets totaly dependant on stealing for drug money. He came to us for help. The first thing he said was i dont want religeon i want the truth. Today he is clean, has a job and thru spiritual intervention is buying a house thru the government.

I keep what works and throw opinons out the window.


Apok


If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

*sigh*
Apok, I don't have anything against holy books, but my point was centered somewhere else. I don't know if you have enough real-life experience yet, but what I was suggesting was to examine why there is a need (to believe, to know, etc) and what causes it. I am interested in the opinions from others, my experiences and opinions are only really important (and relevant) to myself. You see, I could center my life around this or that belief, but my experiences have shown me something else. Instead, I like to hear what others have gone through, and experienced.

well..

I am not sure anymore if I believe or not.

Was is a big bang or was it God?

:: Max ::

It could have been both

I definatly dont have the experience if your counting age , but when your in a context where your family councils all of lifes probelems with society from birth to your death bed. I have to say ive seen a lot at my age.

Let me say the urge to find yourself and the meaning of life was born within us. This is how GOD gets you to phone home. Some ignore that voice others challenge it. Some find it in personal wealth others find it in a belief.

No i dont have the years but i shure have heard the tales and have seen the results thru the eyes of others. Comes with the territory.

Bugimus , good one. What else would the event of concousnes meets wisdom look like
Apok

If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.


[This message has been edited by Apok (edited 10-22-2001).]

Apok, experience is NOT measured in age, it's measured in life. You know, living. So it doesn't matter if you're 100, or 10, it's the amount of actual real-life experiences that one goes through. Whether or not someone learns from them or not, is another matter. I perceive that, as wisdom (learning from life). If all you know is from others, it's time you started getting out there, and living. It's the only way to find out if what others say really applies to you. I guess coming here is a step in the right direction...

Thanks Webshaman
Thats what my dad is constantly re-inforcing into my concouse. That you have to deal with life day by day. All he can do is prepare my emotions to handle situations correctly. He calls emotional training the boot camp that prepares you for lifes battles.

So far i have witnessed the struggle between my emotions knowing what is right and what it could look like without a strong controled spirit. The voices want control masked by touchy feely things but wisdom says patience and perserverance. Im tested daily with my friends. I dont have the struggles they do thanks to pops emotional boot camp and the revelation of biblical principles.

Ive also noted that those who are in lifes struggle are emotional basket cases. Even those who sit in gold towers have big problems.

But i cant wait for lifes trials. Im ready.

Apok


If I try and fail, then i contradict my actions. Trying is not failing, failing is not trying.

Yeah, life's an open road...glad to hear that your hands are on the steering wheel! (wish my hands were on shii's cars' steering wheel. I love her '66!) Wish your father was more active here. Would love to converse with him!

Hope you stay around for a loooong time here, Apok! Look forward to many great discussions with you!

Hey enough of this nice stuff! What ever happened to ad hominem attacks and telling people to go to hell? Sheesh!

Go to hell, Bugs!!

Do you feel better, now?



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-23-2001).]

Okay, before this thread disapears into data heaven.. My mother and I had a really long talk about religion in the car riding back from her parents' house for the big Christmas exchange. In this conversation, I think she made a lot of interesting points, and I really want to voice them, er type rather..

point#1: Missionaries through their duties to 'god' have created wars. I wont say that Christianity is the only religion that has created wars, because I, personally am not sure; but we'll just say that it has made the most wars than any other religion. More importantly, Christians are the only people that feel a need to convert the world. Why not realize that a lot of parts of the world would malfunction if converted? Infact, most do.

point#2: Most forms of religion excluding Christianity include a daily meditation of some sort where one takes time to free themselves from the world, and focus on higher-thought so they will be closer to the divine, and the earth itself. Christianity on the other hand, promotes a kind of laziness, and gets people to think that all you have to do is sing some songs once a week, and pray a little every night. Though this is devotion of time, it does not excersize a desire to connect with a higher-being. Why? Because Jesus already died and forgave you of everything.

point#3: Before there were Christians, there were Paigans.(sp?) They believed that the divine was not only above earth, but on earth, and inside of earth. They had fairies, and spirits that protected them; and then there was the great beyond above them. The winter solstice is the longest night of the year, and on this night, the Paigans would have a great festival in thanks for the begining of shorter nights. The entire festival was all about being happy for living through another year, and welcoming the next. "Bring the outdoors in" my mother said many a time. Fire burning, food, warmth, all a great way to cheer people up after living in the cold winter for so long. Then Christians came along, and told the Paigans they were wrong. Infact, they were so set on proving the Paigans wrong that they found a way to trick them into converting: Christmas. The yule log was adopted from the Paigan's festival, to "prepare for the coming of the 'son/sun'." Yay! They believed it! They'll be saved!

um.. Thats most of it. Sorry if I got hostile in there. >.> But the main point was that my mother has a lot more legitimate and logical reason to believe the Paigans than she does Christians. One of the other points that she tried to uphold was that Christianity was the only religion that created a devil. I proved her wrong with Hades, and she said something like, "but hades was just there to do bad things. the devil is there so Christians can say 'if you don't believe in GOD, The Devil's gonna get ya,' to scare people into becomg converts." I don't think that point was very strong, because I thought Hades played the same role as the Devil; even if they were slightly different. However, she said it mostly o enforce her point that currently, Christianity is the only religion that has a devil, while most other religions belive that there is no firey thing down below us, but instead the earth as a whole is a level of existance, while above is a higher level, which can be accessed through meditation - something that Christianity does not partake in.

-Bmud-

Ok, to correct a couple things:

point #1: if you're blaming Christians for wars you might look at what a few folks over around Afghanistan have done recently Religion, not true relationship with God, is what causes wars and killing in the name of God. It's people using a religion to cover their own personal agendas, not what God is truly "telling them". ANY faith with a belief in some sort of god states that killing is wrong.

As far as why Christians feel the need to convert people, it's not so much a need for conversion (which is what some interpret it as) as much as a need to just share the gospel, something that the Bible (if you believe it) calls us to do.

point #2: again, you've subscribed to a "religion" view on this and not Christianity. Some churches and denominations lend themselves to the idea that if you go to church once a week, try to be a good person, and follow the "rules" (of confession, communion, whatever) and you're good to go. Any church that truly teaches the Bible does not teach that, the major part of Christianity is a personal relationship with God, and the way to develop that is doing personal devotions every day, reading out of the Bible and spending time in prayer. So that point is pretty much entirely incorrect

point #3: pagans, just to clarify I don't know all the specifics on exactly what you mentioned, i'll have to look it up, but i do know that in the early church some pagan tradition (parts of Christmas, looking for Easter eggs, etc.) was integrated with Christian holidays in order to help bring pagans into the church more comfortably. Definitely a political move to at least some extent.

Her take on the devil is also fairly incorrect, there's no fear of Satan nor any belief that he will "get you" in Christianity. The belief there is that you have a simple choice, to follow God or not. Following Him and accepting Christ is how you get into Heaven. You're banished anywhere or "gotten" by anyone, it's completely your choice if you believe it.

Hope that clarifies some things...

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

Thanks for clearing up those few things. Again, this was just all what my mother was saying at the time. She's not always the most right person in the world, but just this once, I found it interesting, and thought I would share her htoughts with the rest of you. As for MY opinion, I almost totally agree with you. And as for the peigan thing, I'm not sure that I was entirely accurate on that either. oh well

-Bmud-

quote:

---

Fig said:
The belief there is that you have a simple choice, to follow God or not. Following Him and accepting Christ is how you get into Heaven. You're banished anywhere or "gotten" by anyone, it's completely your choice if you believe it.

---

I think that this is one thing that some (not all!) Christians have a misconception about. If they beleive in God and accepet Christ as their saviour, then they can go to heaven. I know of a few people that I went to college with that belevied in the "Once in Grace Always in Grace". I find that to be one downfall in some Christians lives.

These people that am I talking about always wanted to argue their relegion. They also tried to force their relegion on you and tell you that you were going to Hell because you didn't follow Christ. I never liked someone to tell me that if I didn't do as they did then I was going to live in eternal tourment.

When I was in college I knew that I needed something more in my life and was going through a very difficult time. I never really cared too much for what was tought in the Christian Church. So, I went through and actually spoke with Priests, Preachers, Rabi and Monks. Then my mentor in college introduced something to me that made a lot of sense to me and helped me find what I was looking for. Since then I have been practicing Buddhism.

The one thing that drove me to studying Buddhism is mainly one thing: No one can help you be a better person and get you to a higher state of enlightment other than yourself.
If you think about it, we are all striving to get to the same place basically. It is just that the path that some of us take may be different and we just have to find the right path to travel.



Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

Forcing your faith on someone is rarely effective, people that do that (and often act very non-Christian or non-whatever) bother me a lot as well. I'll simply add one of my favorite quotes here, it's from St. Francis of Assisi:

Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words when necessary.

Chris


KAIROSinteractive

If I wasnt so sick of debating this kind of issue with my father (yes, the guy i met when i was 15, who had read the bible 8 times at the time) and his beliefs... I would write a post that would put apok ashamed of his little writing on the subject. Oh yes, I wouldn't stand ground against my dear progenitor if I had a little less knowledge in the fields of context-absence.
I also had to withstand a year on christian school, in which i made a 63 page dissertation on the whole theological subject instead of some weird homework (which got a c along with a note to my fathers).
Because that if you take hold of something so heavy and yet so hard and self-contained as the beliefs that withstand the passage of centuries you don't need shields, weapons, pens or words. You will simply defy nature by looking at it; and if you are lucky, you'll get thousands of followers who will fight not for them, not for you, but for the image you, and the persons who made you, lived by you, and died by you, created.
If we replace the word "you", by entire nations... you can imagine the "effect".
It's not a seed, it's not a weed, it's not even a tree.
For me it's earth, and I would never consider it any other thing than a place.
So, if we're talking about places, we should consider it's prosperity potential, and since we're at it, why not talk about other issues, like defiance of reality.

Ah, the old issue..... is our imagination the limit?
Everyone of you heard the phrase "you can go as far as your imagination can take you"
Maybe in a book, maybe in a movie, all of you heard it... but and I mean but, the phrase sometimes falls in error & the error provides false beliefs.
The only false belief that was made, that is actually being "dis"-made is the one that imagination exceeds imagination, by many many times. Imagination is trying to catch up with reality... so new "imagination" and "reality" concepts can be formed.
I for once feel little and misled. I for once feel ignorant.
I for once feel ashamed and unlike the ones who disguise their ignorance by joining others in the sole confort of being more than one, I for once, want to grow up.
I don't know if I will ever "know" what we are or where we are, and I certainly don't know if blind beliefs can be shortcuts to the central operator of the whole thing.

I know this, everytime I read something like
"There's a theory that states when someone discovers the absolute truth about reality, it will simply vanish and be replaced by a more twisted one. Other theory states this has already happened."
my body shivers, my mind boils and my face grins.


Religion?
Faith?
can you tell me..... if those are the riddles?
Why should I care about those, when I can more or less plainly feel that the goal always stands on the other edge of the map and in me at the same time?

God?
If he is.... i'm sure he always will ever be was.
If he isn't.... i'm sure he is.

The question remains.... what has come to religion?
I think it's mutating.
And since beliefs are not eternal, the blurs that are today's dogmas will be replaced by a society where friendship among ourselves is stronger than the mightiest bind or belief.
but that's another issue...



[This message has been edited by Arthemis (edited 01-03-2002).]

Why should you care about those?

Because they are the keys to *everything* you could ever hope to imagine.

I really believe one of us is missing the point.
~sigh~
I really hope it's not me the one lacking vision.

A strategic retreat is in order, like i said... I'm tired of this issue

Arthemis,

I've heard the opinions you expressed many times. So many times have I heard them that they rival any mantra or memorized prayer I know.

I'm pretty sure I got your point, I just thought I would side step it and interject another one of my many opinions on such matters

It's a shame you're running away from this because I would have loved to hear you rebut Apok. I'm sure it would have been quite interesting.

Oh well