Preserved Topic: Vegetarianism

Let me start out by saying I am an unabashed carnivore. I eat just about any meat I can get my hands on, and I enjoy it. I usually like my meat medium-rare or rare as well. So this is where I'm coming from.

My younger brother, who now lives in Portland, Oregon, is a vegetarian. He used to be a vegan, but I think it was too tough for him to stick to the regimen. I've heard some pretty weird (at least in my opinion) reasons for being a vegetarian. Personally, I have to say that the whole cruelty-to-animals thing doesn't bother me all that much. Maybe it should, but it doesn't. I also don't go in for any of the spiritual reasons some people have.

However, there are a couple of areas in which vegetarianism has made me think. The first is health. Basically, I've heard it said that eating too much red meat is not good for you, and that meat leads to cholesterol problems and other maladies. The second is the impact that the meat industry has on the environment. Apparently, it requires a heck of a lot more water to produce a kilo of beef than a kilo of grain. And given the food and water shortages around the planet, I must admit that I sometimes feel a little guilty living the way I do.

Then, of course, I sometimes think: Well, what if I were to become a vegetarian? Would that suddenly give the starving people around the world more to eat? How much of an effect would I really have?

I definitely don't eat as much meat as I used to in the U.S.--the Korean diet is far more vegetable-oriented. But I don't think I would be able to completely cut meat out of my diet--I enjoy it too much.

OK, so are there any vegetarians out there who want to try to convince me? I've got an open mind, and I'm willing to listen to any and all arguments (both for and against).





What does it mean?

Although meat certainly does contain much more fats and cholesteral than vegetables, its effects on your body would only be devestatingly bad if you were in terrible physical condition, and recived little to no exercise. Eating a ballanced diet can ALWAYS consist of eating meat, if you want it too. Although, obviously vegetables are healthier for you than meat, it's still more important to get physical exercise, than to cut meat out of your diet.

Personally, I love meat, I don't think it would be an overstatement to say that meat is the number one food group that I eat from, and I have no intentions of changing my diet because of peoples moral objections, just slight alterations to go along with how much physical activity I do.


My (lame) justification: It took years for us to find just some of the effects on the human body from tobacco, or cocain, or opium - and they all come from plants. Why would I risk my health on carrots or lettuce? How would we know what they could do?

Super Health <-- a good read. Right now I do my best to keep myself on a paleo-diet.




[This message has been edited by warjournal (edited 05-04-2002).]

ayup, balanced diet, lots of water, exercise, everything in moderation

I think of the ole body as a machine, service it regularly, feed it sensibly, and give it a good work out everyso often and it will last a lot longer.

warjournal: wow, that's some interesting stuff, although I didn't read all of it--the page layout is not really conducive to extended reading . I'll have to go back and read through that more carefully later.

I also value exercise, but here in the city I found it really difficult to get regular exercise. About a two months ago, though, I finally joined the squash club across the street, and now I alternate between playing squash (or at least learning how to play squash) and weight training every other day. I'm actually starting to look more human and less like a walking skeleton.

I try to keep a balanced diet, too. My wife and I decided to avoid fast foods if at all possible after I found out some unpleasant things about the nutritional value of McDonald's food . Other than that, our diet consists primarily of starch (rice is a staple), then vegetables, and meat probably comes third.

As for health care (this is from the Super Health thing, which advised avoiding the "medical profession"), I can't remember the last time I went to a Western-style hospital. I usually go to a practitioner of traditional Korean medicine, and (as you probably know) the medicine they prescribe is 100% herbal. I also subscribe to the Asian medical theory of "sasang uihak" (literally, "four constitutions medicine), which says that there are basically four different constitution-types, and different foods have different effects on each of these constitution-types (if you are healthy, though, you can usually eat what you want--I've found that the rules usually apply when your body is not at 100%). I am a "so-eum" type ("little yin"--as in yin-yang), which means "hot" foods are better for me than "cold" foods. This refers to temperature, of course, but also to the nature of the food. For example, rice is considered warm, but barley is considered cold (which means no beer for me when I'm not feeling well! ). I realize it may sound like a lot of hocus-pocus if you're hearing this for the first time, but it works for me.

Thanks for the opinions so far. So, I'll see you guys around the Asylum gym, right? What? We don't have a gym?! Hey! What kind of looney bin is this place, anyway?!





What does it mean?

Vegetarian: noun, Native-American word for bad hunter

I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals. It's because I hate plants.

If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

quote:

---

Although meat certainly does contain much more fats and cholesteral than vegetables

---

plant cholesterol???? nope, only in animals.

ShootingStar, you are hysterical.





What does it mean?

I had a girlfriend that was a vegan once. She was also bleaumic (sp?) which made her breath and fingers always stink :P I don't understand how she got any nuitrition at all.

I think it's bulemic, but I'm not sure, and thank you for that very wonderful image...

Um, and don't take this the wrong way, but I think that girlfriend of yours might have had some "issues" .





What does it mean?

i think it's actually bulimic or P2P (prone to puke).

I can just imagine being with a gal like that.
obviously french kissing and finger sucking are
off the menu unless you like finger food and
leftovers in general.

way too much information...need to brush teeth.

OK, let's get back to vegetarianism before I lose my breakfast...

Let me just say that from a purely evolutionary/biological position, we are omnivores, just like the chimps. We have flat teeth to smash vegetation and the remnants of fangs for the flesh. If all there is to life is the physical, then I say eat what you like.

Personally, I gave up eating animals just one month shy of 4 years ago. One day I was an omnivore and the next day I was a lacto-vegetarian. I did it cold turkey, pardon the pun.

So many people have asked me why I did it that I finally wrote it up and put it on my web page. Of particular interest to some is the fact that I'm a Christian and that has confused the issue somewhat. Here are my reasons:

Reasons to Veg I have been meaning to write up a section about why I choose to eat vegetarian. Here are a few key reasons as to why I think it makes sense for me and how it doesn't conflict with my Xian faith.

1. In the Genesis creation story, vegetarianism was the norm. All the animals and man had only been given the plants for food. It was only after the fall that we hear anything about using animal skins for clothing. And it is only after the flood that man was specifically given permission to eat meat as long as the life blood was not eaten.
2. The dietary laws of the Old Testament while allowing the eating of meat, also regulate how and which animals can be killed for food. I did not know about this until just a few years ago. Animals killed according to Kosher procedures have their throats slit with a very sharp razor. Now if you compare this method with other methods, it is probably the least painful, at least it was in OT times. So I asked myself why would this be in the law? There must have been some concern for the needless suffering of animals for a rule like this to exist.
3. It is supposed to be healthier and taking good care of our bodies is certainly in line with Biblical principles.
4. When I see an animal suffering I automatically feel bad. I gave much thought as to why this would affect my conscience and came to the conclusion that on a very basic level it is wrong to cause unnecessary suffering. There is simply no good reason for me to eat meat when I have such an incredible choice of foods that do not cause the death of animals. This is unlike the Eskimo tribes that live on the North Slope of Alaska where the
5. only
6. regular food source is animal.
7. In the book of Isaiah 65:25 it says, " 'The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,' says the Lord." Part of our daily prayers include the phrase "on earth as it is in Heaven", so where I can I want to help make that happen.
8. From a New Testament perspective, Paul said that for Xians operating under the law of love "all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful". This means that we have great latitude in what we do but only in as much as it works toward higher principles. Points 1-5 have convinced me that being a vegetarian wherever possible works towards a greater good.
9. I can now better relate to millions of people in this world whose vegetarianism is more than just a passing fad, but rather a fundamental core of their religions, cultures, and identities. A good friend of mine, who happens to be a Hindu, influenced the type of vegetarianism I practice. I don't eat any animal flesh including eggs but I do eat dairy products as that does not require killing.

. . : newThing

Dairy products?

I'll let that one slip by Bugs! you make some interesting pts.

i've chosen cannibalism - humans piss me off, so i have no problem eating 'em.


- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

Didn't Linus once say that he loved humanity but it was the people that got on his nerves? LOL!

I think eating is just a right,everyone can choose it freely.:P

i love beatles

<ludicrous reasoning>

We had a discussion about eating animals and the fact that we were terminating life in doing so. (yep, I'm a devout carnivore. Steak Tartare..mmmm).

In the end we suggested to the (quite rabid I might add) vegetarian that one should sedate the animal and surgically remove a slice of meat and then rehabilitate the animal.

Me get steak, animal lives

Needless to say our veggie friend freaked.

</ludicrous reasoning>

Jokes aside:
I like meat, but I'm all for minimizing the suffering of the animals.
Let them be as happy as possible during their lifetime and make their suffering short. They are worth it.

If it tastes good, I'll eat it...I don't care what it is. That about sums it up for me...never felt guilty, or obliged to eat with a conscience (sp)...each to his own, I guess.



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-09-2002).]

Hmm... interesting points, Bugs. Although if I were to consider becoming a vegetarian, I don't think it would be for the reasons you outlined. Personally, I think you can be either vegetarian or carnivorous without violating the basic tenets of the faith. In the end I guess it's a personal choice.

I'm terminally lazy when it comes to cooking and hardly ever buy meat - I seem to live off pasta and veggies topped-off with cheese!

But I do enjoy good food in restaurants! Hmmmmmm, had confit of duck with new potatos, peas and some fancy sauce just t'other day! and hmmmmm oooohhhh and swordfish I think, the day before that! - been entertaining old friends... I dont normally eat out this often...

Anyways, I dont think we should feel bad about eating meat - though I do have a problem with cruelty and I dont like the methods behind things like - Foi Grais (spelling?) and would never eat it (though other types of paté, is okay yeah?) Not too sure why its so cruel, perhaps money? / get the geese fatter, quicker?

Hmm... all good points. I guess I should mention that when I said above that the whole cruelty-to-animals thing didn't bother me, I meant that I don't think killing an animal for food in and of itself is cruel. Unnecessary cruelty, on the other hand does bother me, and just the thought of foie gras (still guessing on the spelling) does kind of make me sick.

I don't forsee myself turning vegetarian in the near future, though. The benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks for me. I think I'll just shoot for everything in balance for now.

Plants are living things, why don't people get up in arms about killing them for food?

DigitalUbiquity

Well, if you want to eliminate killing anything then you have to choose suicide... except you end up killing something with that too.

Actually, there are some groups who don't eat certain plants for that very reason. For example, eating an apple doesn't require chopping down the tree whereas eating a carrot destroys the entire plant. I've heard about some very strict Hindu monks that will only eat milk and fruit.

Suho1004, I don't expect my reasoning to change anyone's mind on this issue. I just wanted to share them. And for the record, I don't think vegetarianism is required by the Faith. I just think it is consistent with it.

What i love are animal activists who wear
leather shoes or leather gloves...talk about
not practicing what you preach.

they should wear poison ivy as loin cloths.

Ah, we've been following (mstly) a diet by Dr. Atkins, the main concept is that you limit your intake of carbohydrates severely, then you can eat as much cholesterol and meat and whatever you please. Interesting concept, I myself prefer pastas and rice and potatos along with my meats, but all those things contain too much of the carbs, sigh. Fortunately, I'm a guy, and guys actually *should* have more carbohydrates than girls, something to do with testosterone. :-) Anyone interested, check out this site... http://atkinscenter.com/ <- good for losing weight, I'm told, though both Malin and I are already skinny. ;-)

Your pal, -doc-

I, also, am a vegetarian.
Bugs, your 'faith & vegetarianism' post earlier reminded me of an interesting conversation I had with my father-in-law some time ago.

<a little background>
father-in-law...
...is a devout, super religious, almost obsessive, 'bible-belt' christian.
...grew up on a 'cattle farm', that is, they made their living raising and slaughtering cows.
...is still very into farming, his current job is as a consultant to midwest USA farmers.
</a little background>

He argued with me once that being a vegetarian was AGAINST the will of the christian god. His argument went something along the lines of:

"Genesis story; creation of earth and animals; man was made in god's image; god gave control of all the earth and it's creatures to man; animals -- and, thus, their meat -- are a gift from god to man; to not accept that gift is an insult to god."

His argument was a bit more in-depth, but I think you get the point.

I guess MY whole point in this...it's interesting how the same book, the same words, can produce such total opposite conclusions, all depending on 'other' background factors.

I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion, just interesting (at least to me) analysis.

mobrul

Too late!!! Just kidding.

I run into that kind of position a lot as you can probably imagine. It's the same text, it's not changing. Sadly, people usually read what they want to read from it instead of being dedicated to reading what it actually says and letting the chips fall where they may.

Doc, I have a good friend whose significant other has him on a super low carb diet. We went out to a burger place the other day and I had a veggie burger with fries and he just had a burger. At the end of the meal I had a few fries left over and he asked if he could have one of them... the look of ecstasy on his face was classic! He was dying for some carbs and that one fry meant so much to him. I almost died laughing.
[edit bad grammar]

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 05-07-2002).]

Here's a trivia question: Where do "vegetarians" get their name?

. . : newThing

From their parents??

Man right now I'm craving a half pound bacon
cheeseburger with all the trimmings...or super
size smoked meat sandwich (anyone know
what smoked meat is?) or a huge t-bone or
NY cut sirloin, medium rare.
mmmmmmmmmmm
we have a saying here:
you can smoke meat but you can't pea soup.




[This message has been edited by ShootingStar (edited 05-08-2002).]

Well, ShootingStar, I think my reaction to your post (and pic) pretty much proves that I'm not becoming a vegetarian anytime soon.

This has turned into an interesting discussion, with a lot of different viewpoints. That's all I really wanted--to hear some different views on the matter.

[Edit: Bugs, how long are you going to keep us in suspense?]




[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 05-08-2002).]

ohhhhh... Talk about fuddruckers... they have some Awesome one pound hamburgers... ahhhh.... ahhhh.... they are about a big as your plate, and ya can pile them HIGH with basically a full sized salid. oh man. Thats good. I like a good round meal, veggies (cooked), veggies (raw), carbs, and some meat. Oh yeah.

. . .

I got totally tied up today and couldn't get back to the Asylum until now, I hate when that happens! Excuse me just a second, I need to go smack mobrul...



...ok that's better... anyway it comes from the latin word "vegetus" which means lively or vigorous. But it is so similar to vegetable that people just assume is based on that.

. . : newThing

OK, that was worth the wait. It is interesting, though, that "vegetus" would mean lively and vigorous. Considering the connotations of "vegetable" in English, one would think it would mean the opposite. I suppose it's referring to the "life" aspect of it, though.

Just as I thought. I just looked it up (why didn't I think of that before), and the chain of words running from vegetus to vegetable goes like this:

vegetus (lively) -> vegetare (to grow) -> vegetabalis (vegetative) -> vegetable

Considering the similarity between vegetare and vegetarian, wouldn't it be just as correct to assume that it means "to grow" as well? I think it's all a matter of semantics, and vegetarians get their name from "vegetable," it's just that the Latin root of the word was used to form the new word. Interesting stuff, nonetheless.

(I still think the most interesting part of all this is that "vegetable" once meant "lively," but now we use the term to describe someone who is anything but lively!)

Exactly my thoughts Suho. A vegetable is someone who is inactive, mentally and physically.
Which reminded me of an off-colour joke (i hope this doesn't offend anyone)

What's the hardest part of a vegetable to eat?
The wheelchair.

Nurse! ShootingStar needs more meds, pronto! And from the looks of it...shock treatment as well...*grins at ShootingStar*

You gonna get it, but good!

Ooh... shock treatment!

*sits down in the front row bleachers with a bag of popcorn*

Heh, now don't get too comfortable, Suho1004. You're next! Hahahahha!

GROSS

Shock treatment time, baby! Time for me to do my Don King impression!

You all do realize they make some very tasty meat substitutes out there, right? I know I know, they're not like the real carnage, but they really are quite satisfying if you give them a chance. For that matter, haven't any of you eaten Indian cuisine? You can eat an entire vegetarian meal at an Indian buffet and be totally satisfied and go away never even thinking of dead animal flesh.

Suho
This is really developing into a insightful thread..learning lots
about very fundamental issues relative to human nature and diet.
Tons of redeeming social value here.

But some critical questions still beg answers. For example,
can a vegatarian still break wind? I've heard dogs let loose
but never have I witnessed a cow with flatulence (but again
i'm a city boy)

Also, can a vegan ignite his farts, to entertain his frat
brothers for example? what's better a lighter or a propane torch?

Are veggie farts composed purely of natural gas and derivative hydrocarbons
or do they also possess the semi-lethal sulfides of hydrogen that are so characteristic
of meat eaters?

Can anyone answer these questions?

I was very surprised recently to find out that
Vegetarian leather exists!
Yep, apparently it is used in furniture and
households, cars, etc. they call it vinyl.

I'm a big fan of the MorningStar brand of 'meat substitutes'.
They have all different kinds:
breaded chicken patties
breaded chicken nuggets
hamburgers (4 different flavor varieties!)
hotdogs
breakfast sausage (patties and links!)
bacon
spicy buffalo wings
bags of 'ground beef'
...I can't even remember all their products.

Vegans be warned, some of their products do contain egg whites and / or whey. As usual, read the label.

For the full vegan menu I go with a homemade recipe...very tasty.

mobrul

ShootingStar...for the record, yes, cows fart...enormously. Don't ask how I know this...

WS:
Yes, but can the volatile odiferous bovine emissions be ignited?
if so, what is the chemistry behind it?
methane?

which reminds me of a story.
a guy has to bail out of a plane (see the thread in ozone forum)
he's out of the plane, pulls the ripchord, nothing happens
damn! he drops and drops and all of a sudden he sees this
guy going up!
wtf?

the guy with the faulty parachute hollers at the guy going UP:
hey, do you know anything about parachutes?

the guy going up, hollers back:
NOPE...you know anything about gas barbecues?

a true story, honestly

edit: joke reads better with protagonists going in the right directions.


[This message has been edited by ShootingStar (edited 05-09-2002).]

Lady: We call it Underworld. That's where Bartertown gets its energy.
Man: What, oil? Natural gas?
Lady: Pigs.
Man: You mean pigs like those? Bullshit!
Lady: No. Pig shit.
Man: What?!
Diffrent Man: Pig shit. The lights, the motors, the vehicles, all run by a high-powered gas called methane. And methane cometh from pig shit.

ShootingStar, I believe methane also cometh from bull shit. And vegetarians produce more methane than carnivores and thus contribute more to the so called green house gases. LOL!

. . : newThing

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 05-09-2002).]

Ok Bug.
But what if Mad Max had a cow, and he wanted to ignite
any blasts of wind and....

nevermind.

quote:

---

Wednesday October 25, 2000; 12:25 PM EDT

Gore Proposed $2 Mil to Fight Cow
Flatulence

Everyone knows that if elected, Vice President
Al Gore plans to pull out all the stops in his
fight against air pollution.

But Gore surprised even President C*****n with
his enthusiasm and his "leave no stone
unturned" approach to the problem, according
to an anecdote in George Stephanopoulos' White
House memoir "All Too Human."

Stephanopoulos wrote:

"'I know you've been worried about the
credibility of Reinventing Government,'
[C*****n] deadpanned. 'Now I'm really worried
that the vice president has gone over the
line.' Smiling, [C*****n] handed me the
folder, which contained a Xerox copy of 'REGO
Action #39,' a $2 million government project
to clean the air by cutting bovine flatulence.
Two million bucks to fight the cow-farting
crisis. I left the Oval laughing, convinced I
wasn't crazy to keep an eye on REGO."

---

after reading this, there is NO WAY in HELL i'm ever going to eat veggies.
http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1993-01.html

I remember an episode of south park where stan wouldn't eat meat and his skin was breaking out in vaginas.... Pretty much meaning he was a pussy. But it's in our nature to eat meat which is why I chose to eat meat. However I dont discriminate vegetarians at all, in fact I admire their strong will not to eat real food just kidding, but it would take a lot of self disaplin for me to convert to eat in that diet, which again is why I admire people like Bugs even though I admire him anyway for his artistic ability, his perception, his DHTML skills, and his taste



[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 05-10-2002).]

Insider:
If i were you i would NOT be playing with
fire around this thread...BOOOOOOMMMM

Bugs: Actually, there's a vegetarian restaurant here in Seoul (run by some cult, I think ) that serves a lot of different meat substitutes. They have this stuff that tastes so much like sandwich ham (you know, the processed stuff) that I can't really tell the difference. Obviously they also make a lot of stuff out of tofu (tubu) here as well. In fact, I've seen vegetarian fish made out of tofu. It's amazing what a little seasoning can do.

ShootingStar: Despite the fact that I call myself a dyed-in-the-wool (what the heck does that mean, anyway?) carnivore, I don't actually eat a whole lot of meat, and I usually don't eat any meat before lunch. My first breakfast (before I go to the health club) consists of something called seonsik, which is basically a powder made from all sorts of grains and fruits and stuff. I mix about 50ml of it with 250ml of milk and honey. Let me tell you, I let rip like a machine gun when that stuff goes through my system. It's all healthy, though, of course .

Well, except for your underwear...

Green skidmarks...hahahah!

I'll have you know that I, at least, change my underwear. Unlike some people around here...

quote:

---

green skidmarks

---

lmao@ws

Suho:
I would be weary about eating any "meat" substitutes. We all know
that hot dogs are nothing more than "chicken lips and assholes" but
what else can you find in that tofu burger? How about a kidney, lifted
from a tourist who found himself lying in an alley dazed and confused
with a large scar down his back and side? Now suppose that kidney
didn't match any donors on the black market? Talk about a substitute
for vegetarian steak and kideney pie.........gross.

p.s. wasn't there a poem called green skidmarks and ham?

Maybe you should change your name to fallingstar...

Nurse! Shootingstar needs more meds...and another series of shock treatments...

I just love yelling that down the corridor...

ShootingStar: you are obviously a very disturbed person. I'm glad you have found your way here before you seriously hurt yourself or others.

As for what else is in the tofu burgers... um, tofu. I think you went off the deep end on that last one.

WS: Shock treatments are not going to cut it anymore. I think we need something... stronger.

Where is the nurse?
i could use some dilaudid
the horror the horror