Preserved Topic: Land of the Free? (Page 2 of 3)

genis: I think you have completely missed my point - trust me if I wanted to compare the acts of the current US administration to that of the Third Reich I would be more explicit and say so directly. That specific quote although orginating from the Holocaust has a interesting resonance and more than any other I can think of has taken on a life of its own because the lesson it teaches is far more important than just as a historical fact. It says that you should always be vigilant not just for the rights of yourself but for everyone's rights. Not even totalitarian regimes would be bold enough to impose sweeping monitoring measures, or any other erosion of our civil liberties, or large groups of the population. Ruling bodies of all stripes (from juntas to elected parliaments) will try and impose the greatest level of control they can get away with and if hat involves taking advantages of scares or targetting specific members of the population then so be it. In the late eighties early nineties here numerous acts were passed to try and restrict the 'dangers' of New Age travellers and illegal raves and we are still having to deal with the legacy of those laws.

You say you don't mind these laws because you are doing nothing wrong and that attitude is fatal because precedents are being set and what is classed as being wrong has a tendency to shift. On a smaller scale to what we have been discussing but still relevant (I hope): new laws in the pipeline and some legal precedents set may actually make it illegal to block ads.

Anyway I hope I've made my point a bit clearer there.

Jestah: I fear that is a good point - the majority of those involved in 9/11 were Egyptian or Saudi but I suppose the named countries are just easier targets.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Metahedron: Nice to have you back here and (if I've understood you correctly) I think you are right.

What these, and other measures, is trying to do is deal with symptoms not causes and in some ways I think these actions are only going to make matters worse. The reasons the US is hated (not just be Moslems) are many and some of the reasons (the freedom of women, a liberal, secular society, etc.) are ones that should never be changed but the perception that the US (its administration anyway) is being arrogant and high-handed and trying to force its values and systems on to other people aren't going to be helped by current actions.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

yes well, while i agree we should watch out for everyone's civil rights, you seem to be including admittance into the US as a civil RIGHT.
It is not.

quote:

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And we still have unspecified numbers of Moslems imprisoned without trail in a nuber of locations.

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And i suppose you would have us give everyone the exact location we are holding Abu Zubaiydah so the red cross could go over and see how his murdering ass is being treated? Well, I would too, if the evidence presented to us about his evil deeds were not sufficient. I'm just glad our government is responsible enough to tell us when they are holding someone. If they ceased doing that, I too would be up in arms. But giving out the location makes it one massive target. This is for our security after all.

quote:

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You say you don't mind these laws because you are doing nothing wrong

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I don't know where you are losing track of the beginnings of this post, but I've never said that, and this isn't about targeting Muslims in our country or elsewhere.

It's about securing our country against countries with the highest levels of threatening radical ideas and people. It's statistics once again. If those countries also happen to have a high number of muslims, well whoopty shit. No need to pull the race card or religion card. If Norway suddenly had an insurgence of white radical christian neo-nazis with plans to blow up the San Francisco bridge we would tag everyone coming in from Norway too, if they weren't a US citizen.

Show me where someone's civil rights have been breached and I'll be upset.
Can you show me? Can you?

genis:

quote:

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I've never said that

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and I've checked and you didn't - sorry about that. My pint is then directed to GD

I'm curious about the rest of your statements - are you really implying that no-one but a US citizen has rights when in the US? If not it is the way it comes across I'm afraid.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Certainly, taking action to prevent another 9/11 is justified. Even actions that are unpopular. It may be rather unpopular if war against Iraq indeed moves forward. How do you think the battle can be fought not against the humantiy but against language? When an innocent Afghani comes to our country to enjoy the sights and is strip searched, it can bee seen as an over-eager customs agent (and Customs policies) and might be seen as a terrible regression from freedom into totalitarianism. However, althought the pain is real, it is subjective. In my mind, what is happening is that an *idea* is manifested phsyically by a violation of one's privacy. So rarely do I see the issues (political or otherwise) as concept instead of direct personal responsiblity.

Some brave news writers have pleaded with the U.S. to be less of a jerk. Some citizens are seeing past the ACLU-ish goings ons and tried to remedy the sociological errors that created this situation in the first place. Some members of the Asylum seem to be attempting at least to reverse the long-coming loop of eye for an eye, the feeding of the beast.

Emps, when i'm speaking about rights in this thread, I'm saying no one but a citizen has the right to be admitted entry into our country. We can turn you away if we don't like your haircut, and that's the simple truth. The fact that we allow them in is a privilige. If checking in with us in 30 days in undergoing a full background check is the price of that privilige, well they can take it or leave it. Don't matter us none.

quote:

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Some citizens are seeing past the ACLU-ish goings ons and tried to remedy the sociological errors that created this situation in the first place.

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Please do continue to open up that can of worms by telling us what you interpret these sociological errors to be, Meta.

Well, to start with: Israel. Is it truly in our best interest to support this last vestage of Divine Providence?

genis, your ranting is exactly that...pointless ranting. You've probably never been in a war, so get a clue. You've probably never lived in another country, so get a clue. You have absolutely no idea about oil, as seen from your previous posts, or how much America consumes, so get a clue.

I'd love to see you getting that 'full body cavity' check on vacation in some other country...just so I could hear you screaming about how you are an American citizen, and that you have rights, etc.

Ach, I'm wasting my breath on you, you're just arguing to argue. And if you call me a 'hippie' again, there will be hell to pay. First off, I fought a war for my country, and I have served. Have you? I am not a 'peace-loving tree hugger with a peace sign t-shirt'.

I have the 'luxury' of having lived in many other countries...not just visited, but lived. Therefore, I have a perspective on the States based on experience that you probably don't have. I have seen (and been a part) of the inner workings of not only America, but a large portion of the western world. I have held high security clearances, not only with the military, but also with the dept. of energy. My 'information' most likely vastly exceeds yours.

But hey, go on ranting...kinda sounds like Mr. Bush...or you could put your 'talent' to use as an energizer commercial...just goes on and on and on....

And I never said anything about the legal aspects of the threads topics...don't know where you got that idea. It's like arguing with a little kid. *shakes head*

@Meta - well said.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-03-2002).]

Everyone duck, the ax is swinging, and hair is flying...

Actually, American culture itself one obese, dirty, disrespectful sociological error, frankly. The beauty and power of the wise men who created our country and the blood of our ancestors is overshadowed by McDonalds, Disney, and Ford. I am so ashamed by the de facto way of living here. The fact that many Americans are ignorant, consuming slobs *does* matter to the world. An important effort would be to try and change our image and focus on the brighter sides of our country.

Emp - My basic point is that we're already being watched and tracked in just about everything we do. I wouldn't fall over if I heard that Ozone was being skimmed by FBI computers. Like... someone... GN, I think, said.

quote:

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But about ID cards, it seems that in America you can't do anything without a Social Security number, a drivers license and a Credit Card.

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Official ID cards really make no difference. Your social security card is your ID card. How is a "different" ID card going to be any different?

WS - I confess to missing your point. What about the above quote was supposed to make me re-evaluate what I said?

I'm also not against screening everyone regardless of race, religion, etc. etc.

We don't have the resources to do that right now. When we do, we'd better start searching everyone. I haven't said anything otherwise. I agree with equality. However, when faced with a specific threat and not enough resources to be equal in our checks, we should check where the percieved threat is until we can be equal in our checks. We can assume the innocence of a person until a routine check gives us reason not to. How else are we supposed to screen for criminals?

If I recall correctly, you aren't against security checks so long as they are done for everyone entering the country. If screening everyone isn't feasible at this point in time do you suggest we do nothing until those resources are in place? Or should we do what we can until those resources are in place and then screen everybody after it is feasible?

Maybe if our government was vocal about getting measures in place to be able to check everyone this wouldn't be so big an issue. They should check everyone for any number of crimes. It'll take time and money to get those measures put in place but that is the way it should be done. Some effort should be shown that we are heading that way, the way of equality.

I here ya, Emp. I am woefully subject to the information that is deemed necessary for me to hear from the media. It makes it difficult to really get all of the info. Is this actually that mainstream a thing or is it just here and there? I mean all of not just in the UK.

genis - Much as I agree with the instigating principles of what you're saying... your take is a bit extreme. It is a visitors priveledge to be able to come here. If you want to get strict about something get strict about stopping illegal immigrants or something. Oh... I see, Texas. A friend of mine form Arizona holds that same basic point of view, but only in the immigration for citizenship side of it.

Nods to Meta.

Right on both counts. An improtant effort would be to improve the American lifestyle which would improve our image. Lets not just focus on the brighter sides of America that are here... lets make some more bright sides to look at.


GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-03-2002).]

everyone is right is someone's eyes.

well, your Social Security Number is not an I.D. card.
As far as I remember from my stay in the US, it's not even illegal to give businesses a fake one. (I'm not sure about government agency, but you could argue for it on the scope in which Social Security Numbers were introduced).

Really scary is biometrical identification (fingerprints (already being done in GA driver's licenses), face recognition data, DNA-scans...) into the ID cards. You can't fake those. (or at least it's much harder to).
And, it's a very small step from there to a central database with this information. Welcome to 1984, only lot's cheaper...

For all your 'Big Brother' needs...this.

So yes, we are being watched, weighted, catogorized, filtered...all over the world. Echelon is a huge intelligence gathering dept. Luckily, it has 'filters' in place...screening much out. It 'looks' for certain keywords, phrases, etc.

However, the 'filters' can be changed...quite easily. The human element is, perhaps, the greatest weakness of this 'community'. They 'obey and follow' guidelines from higher up, on what they 'pass on' as information...

And yes, they 'watch' this board, as well...all boards, to be exact. And E-Mails. And data exchanges. And, and, and....

The nearest 'post' to me, here in Germany, is in Bayern. They actually managed to get into the German news awhile ago...surely, someone f**ked up...

Oh, and to GrythusDraconis, this

quote:

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We have evidence that proves that people of that ethnic background are a greater threat to us.(WTC Attack)

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is what I was referring to. Your use of the word 'ethnic' here...personally, it's...disturbing. I would put it more like this 'people from this sort of background' and then go on to explain what sort of background you mean. I don't think that because of the 'ethnic' background, it has anything at all to do with it. There are people from that 'ethnic' background who are christians, or who don't believe in religion, as well. And there are literally millions who are very peace-loving folks.

Maybe we should start doing the same to the Irish, eh? Or the many other 'ethnic' groups around the world where there are some 'bad apples' in the bunch...

And that's what I meant.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-03-2002).]

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-04-2002).]

Webshaman - I did not write that?

-^^-
--::--
\___/

don't mind WebShaman, GN, he has way more experience than us in everything, so he is obviously right by default.
Our arguing points with him mean nothing because he has been in a war, traveled abroad, and had some sort of security clearance at one time or another in 2, count em, TWO places.

By this same logic we should not question the president or our elected officials, I mean they work in the government for chrissake and have major amounts of security clearance we don't... they obviously know what is best for all of us.

*Shakes head*

There is no need to give Meta a retort for obvious reasons.

tool

Insider - LOL

Genis - Jestah summed it up quite nicely already: "Afghanastan didn't declare war on the United States. A small Muslim radical group ... did." There isn't a Terroristonia, filled to the brim with Terrorists that are just flocking to enter our country. It's a wee bit harder to handle than that. While yes, I do believe that a strong defence be a positive thing in America at the moment, simply slamming the door and telling everyone Muslim to piss off is just... well... ignorant. Perhaps looking at things a bit differently, and showing a moderate amount of respect to those who debate your opinions, and you'll find yourself an actual soap box to stand on and preach. Until then, at least try not to intentionally piss people off for the sake of pissing them off.

-

Moreover, to the ID Cards/Tracking issue that was being discussed before we got into a Americana Rights debate (as a lot of threads are going nowadays), I too don't have any real big issues with being tracked and watched and whatnot... but I don't know, it almost feel like it's an issue of trust. Have I done anything to have anyone really keeping tabs on me and where I go, who I talk to, what I buy? I mean... I pay my taxes, I buy my gas, I have my friends, I go to work, I get my paycheck... I haven't exactly purchased a gallon of napalm or an M-16 anytime lately, so being tracked would just kinda make me feel like my own government doesn't trust me as a citizen. And a government, built by the people and for the people, not trusting it's own citizens... sounds like a pretty shitty government, if you ask me. Why, it almost sounds... undemocratic...



Sorry I lost track of this thread, I fully intended on being a part of things, but I just downright forgot about it.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

genis! Retorts quite welcome to enlighten ignorant and oblivious asylum participants such as the author of such retort-impaired commentary.



(edit - obviously, obligated to correct "oblivious".)

[This message has been edited by Metahedron (edited 10-04-2002).]

Jesus, njuice if you'd just read my posts you'd understand we're not slamming the door on all people muslim... i've only repeated this so many times... you people really suck the life out of debate.

Keep on typing, Meta.

Nope, sure didn't say we did. I said you claimed this was the best course of action, which you did.

If a country is at high-risk, we should keep their people out, plain and simple. Got any more secure ideas than that?

Sorry, did I misread that?

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

slamming the door and telling everyone Muslim to piss off

filtering out a country doesn't filter out a religion.

true we do stop all residents of Iran, Iraq, etc not to come here, but just because their government forces them to be Muslim doesn't mean we're targeting those countries because all their residents are Muslim.

why am i repeating myself? I'm done here... no one listens.

Their people? It was a handful of Islamic fundamentalists. They hardly represent the Middle East population. It's like suggesting that those on death row represent the United States.

It's not that no one listens. We all read your posts, there just generally filled with false generalizations and silly responses. Don't become offended because we disagree with you, try and figure out an effective way to get your opinion across.

-Jestah
Cell 277

[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 10-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Jestah (edited 10-04-2002).]

No, those islamic fundamentalists do not represent the whole of the Middle East, and neither does Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or Lybia.

But when a government brainwashes their population to hate the US and leads them to believe the US is the center of all their problems, is there any wonder why we keep Iranians, Iraqians, and Lybians out?

Have I made a false generalization by saying keeping residents of irresponsible governments out of the US makes us more secure and we have the absolute RIGHT to do so, for the security of our nation?
I don't think so.

You do realize we can't travel to those places either. My passport is not good there, is yours?

You say figure out an effective way to communicate my opinion?
Well if you've noticed, I've been a broken record in all of my posts. I've repeated the same point in all of them over and over but in different manners hoping to get something/anything across.

Doesn't seem to have worked.

First of all, my apologies to GN...indeed, that was meant for GrythusDraconis. Sorry about that. No hard feelings?

And now to Mr. Genis...

Heh. I have absolutely nothing against a good, sound debate...in fact, I welcome such. But personal attacks, name calling, and emotional outbursts are hardly what I would call a 'good, sound' debate. Now, I will do you a favor here, in the hope that you will listen. It is my greatest of hopes that you will remain here at the Asylum, and improve your debating skills (so that I can improve mine). The first few times that you posted at the Asylum, were pretty good...and I thought that maybe we had another thinker in you. However, in this thread, you went way off, maybe because the subject is an emotional one for you, and as you should know, emotion clouds not only judgement, but the thinking process, as well. It is one thing to 'stand on the soapbox', it is quite another to deliberately attack someone else personally. Now, you've been 'shown' the cold reality of your posts. You have a choice from here. Learn, and continue...or become someone who will be isolated. To have an opinion is one thing...yes, we all have opinions here. But to state those as fact, and to personally belittle others, even out of context, is another.

The ability to apologize, is hugely underrated...but sometimes essential. Have I made my point clear?

Also, you assume that I somehow hold the high ground, because of my experiences. Well, sometimes that may be the case, but sometimes not. I can be wrong, and I am well aware of this. When shown that that is true, then I admit it, and accept it. You could do the same.

I sincerely hope that you read this, and take it to heart. We can all make mistakes, yes. It's what we do after that, that is telling.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-04-2002).]

quote:

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I've repeated the same point in all of them over and over but in different manners hoping to get something/anything across.

Doesn't seem to have worked.

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Ermz to that...

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no one listens

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That just thralled it to me....

No you fucking idiot, you're not listening. Instead of being so defensive try to understand that these people here have an open mind about everything you say up until you slap down a bunch of shit that not only is rude and disrespectful but is ignorant and lame.

It's quite obvious you have a great sence of global knowlege and we are all happy to converse with you in a civil manor. Now you take the time to listen to what they say and think before you post. Trust me it works.

quote:

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don't mind WebShaman, GN, he has way more experience than us in everything, so he is obviously right by default.
Our arguing points with him mean nothing because he has been in a war, traveled abroad, and had some sort of security clearance at one time or another in 2, count em, TWO places.

---

And if you don't want to be scalped, I suggest you don't make any more comments on the fact that WS had to go to war. It sickens me when poeple have to go to the extreme to disrespect someone who has put their life up for this country and I won't tolerate it here.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-04-2002).]

tool

No no no... See it doesn't work that way....

Unless of course you were calling yourself a tool, in that case your absolutely right.

But since I doubt that you would all of the sudden change your attitude, I can only assume that you called me a tool.

<maynard>Well now I've got some bad advice for you little buddy. Before you point the finger you should know that I'm the man.</maynard>

That's TOOL.

Heh. Never thought that InSiDeR would be 'sticking up' for me...

Well, let's wait and see how genis reacts...I think a reasonable amount of time should be given for him to think, and comptemplate...he's standing on the edge...and his decision now will decide future...actions.

'Everyone is responsible for their own actions, and therefore the consequences' (unless insane).

On with the original topic of the thread!

anyone around here get the irony?

Can anyone tell me what is totally wrong with Insider's post?
I find it glaringly obvious, of course.

Can anyone share with the class? Anyone at all?

Ahhh...genis, this isn't about InSiDeR...I think we've had way too many threads about InSiDeR...in fact, we are all hoping that we won't have to have any more threads about InSiDeR...one can hope...

That said, this thread is about Land of the Free?. My most recent posts, however, were directed soley at you. I await your reaction to them.

oh dude... sorry I didn't even see that one.... will get to it post haste.

I'll play along with this little off-topic ruse for now . . .

emotion clouds not only judgement, but the thinking process, as well.
And boy it must've clouded you when I laid "hippie" out there.

It is one thing to 'stand on the soapbox', it is quite another to deliberately attack someone else personally.
Dude, if you find that my suggesting that you espouse "hippie crap" as a personal attack, then you have got some major problem with hippies that i don't even wanna know about.
Remember, you called my statement on militarizing the border and banning flights "the stupidest thing you ever heard". Well then in your mindset that equates to calling me stupid. So I should be the one apologizing? PUH-LEEZ.

You've probably never been in a war, so get a clue. You've probably never lived in another country, so get a clue. You have absolutely no idea about oil, as seen from your previous posts, or how much America consumes, so get a clue.
Hmm... this isn't a personal attack?
okay then.

Also, you assume that I somehow hold the high ground, because of my experiences.
No ... I don't... that's why i was mocking you sarcastically.
If that offended you.. tough. I know you're a tough guy, i know you can take it.
Sarcastic remarks are a poignant way to get your clouded logic across to you. In this instance, it was your belief that you held the high ground because of your experiences.
Which, i then equated to the president and congress very nicely. Did you read that part? You should really read the whole post, i think that makes it all come together very nicely in the end.

To have an opinion is one thing...yes, we all have opinions here. But to state those as fact, and to personally belittle others, even out of context, is another.
It is funny how stating opinions as fact, which i don't do, and which is wrong, kind of ties back in to my original posting in this part of the forum.
And if you can find anything out of context with my posts, you're probably not comprehending hard enough.

Okay enough of that.
This ruse was just a deliberate attack on my character so you could try and escape replying to my actual points of argument.
You made a huge mistake when you referred to your past experiences as making you some sort of expert on the subject at hand, and I called you on it big time.
And you know that was a bad move.
But how can you save face? By turning the tables and acting like I slammed you personally. Hey, even Insider helped you out by not getting my poignant sarcasm (although he never does).
This ruse wasn't even well played.

We can all make mistakes, yes. It's what we do after that, that is telling.
True indeed, WebShameon, true indeed.



[This message has been edited by genis (edited 10-04-2002).]

Ok genis, you don't seem to be getting it. This was a serious attempt to reach you. Sad...but...it appears to be the path you wish to take.

'He who sows, reaps'.

You called it...now live with it.

One thing though. You seem to think (judging from your post) that this is some sort of 'game', or challenge, or part of the debate. Well, it's not. It's actually a part of the underlying rules here in the Asylum - 'We police our own'. Since the Doc doesn't believe in banning, this is one of the way we attempt to reach (and teach) new members about the workings of the board. Now, maybe you didn't realize this...but if you are as intelligent as you seem...then I feel that you probably realize this. It's a shame, really, that you seem to be ignoring this.

And personally? Well, I certainly have nothing against hippies...I'm just not one. Plain and simple. I might of even let all the other slandering of my character slide, but...you started attacking others, as well. Now that I cannot abide, neither personnally, nor officially. Thus, I took it upon myself to attempt to 'educate' you in this regard. Apparently, this has not reached you. Apparently, you still wish to 'ignore' my suggestions, continuing this absurd 'game'. Maybe you are thinking that I am reacting emotionally. That is clearly not the case, as you can now see. My reason is not clouded. On the contrary, it is finely focused. It is a very rare occasion where I react out of emotion here, at the Asylum. On these rare occassions, I had good reason to do so. This is not one of those occassions.

You made some mistakes. I admonished you for them. You still seem to be ignoring that.

'Pride goes before the fall'.

Yes, I know this, and learned it here as well, in the Asylum. That was awhile ago, and a Mod stepped in and 'showed me the ropes'. I believe that many of us here, in the Asylum have had such a 'learning experience', at one time or another. Some harsh, others not so harsh. The deciding factor, is how one deals with it afterwards...whether or not someone takes it in stride, and to heart. Or not.

Your choice. You decide. Either it's all good, one learning experience more...or I take this to mail. It's that simple...

So I gave you a warning. And a chance.

go ahead, buddy.
I have yet to see you post any direct quotes of mine that relate to this alleged personal attacks.

If you feel your status as "Mad Scientist" allows you to rule with an iron fist, so be it.
Please feel free to "take this to mail", and know that you are safe in your own little virtual world from the hard arguments you've had to face.

Never again will the other "peons" cowering under your "Mad Scientist" status ever make you face your own lapses in logic when posting.
Your opinions will now become law, and let no man deface the golden virtual statue you have erected unto yourself. ALL HAIL MIGHTY WEBSHAMAN!!

I believe in this forum, however, evidence not need be held back due to security concerns. So cough it up, or face judgment yourself. Yes, even in your "official" capacity, you too can be judged by the cold reality of public opinion.

You? Emotional? nooo.
You? Beaten? yes.
And it hurts sooo gooood.

Ok, I've already sent the mail, so I won't be 'answering' your replies here...or 'take the bait'.

My duties as a Mad Scientist aside (which have more to do with archiving/deleting threads, moving threads, closing threads, etc, and nothing to do with 'abusing' whatever 'powers' you may think I have...otherwise, I'd just edit your posts...or delete them. And I certainly don't 'rule' anybody here. You are being silly, in that regards.), it is more that the older members of the board do attempt to help newer members 'learn the ropes'. I see that I have clearly failed in that here (in your case). In that regard, yes, you are correct. You have 'won'. At what price, I dare say.

Sad...

So, let's get this thing back on track folks!



[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-04-2002).]

---posted before I read Webshaman's last comment---
---I guess refresh is a good button---

I was wondering when nap time was?

Enough of this BS.
Both of you guys are insulting each other.
This is not a one way thing here.

Ok, Goodie.

Now it's time to sit down by the fire and reflect on the heat you both feel streaming through your scowled faces.....

It's time to get out the peace pipe and try and remember what started this all. And when you realize you can't remember what started this, then you can laugh and smoke, and perhaps drink a couple sips of whiskey.



[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 10-04-2002).]

Yes, agreed GN. But I'm not angry. A bit sad, maybe, but those are the breaks.

So, to continue...

quote:

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As for the Niemoller quote. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU compare our security checks and our holding of detainees to the Nazi internment and slaughter of millions? You disgrace the memory of all those who died in those camps.

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This I not only consider a personal attack, it's a downright insult. Emps said here -

quote:

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Its much quoted (in many variations) and a little emotive (I apologise in advance if it upsets anyone) but this comes to mind:

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Then comes the quote. Read in context with his post (and the original topic), it is very easy to understand how Emps meant it. Deliberately 'misunderstanding' it is the way I see genis reacting to it. And then bending it totally out of context...that is an attack, a vicious one. No-one ever said anything about Nazis. And though the quote has its origins in that frameset, Emps (for me, anyway) clearly stated that it applies also to this thread...and it has been used before, here, in other threads in the Asylum to support such, as well without it being misunderstood. But maybe I just overestimate the intelligence of genis. And he probably didn't know that it has been used as such before...

So then there is this -

quote:

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Our country, our choice. Can your hippie crap.

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Well, that's clearly a personal attack. Plain to see.

Then this -

quote:

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*sigh* - how about you bone up on the recent history of how the 9/11 hijackers got in.
... and i'm the stupid one?

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Well, he 'complains' that calling an opinion stupid somehow means that the person is stupid...so I guess we can all see what he is saying here...and I note, that I never called him stupid, but the opinion. I always considered him intelligent before all this...

Here, the 'beginning'...of the 'twisting and turning'

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Statistically, now people from the same background as the terrorists are more likely to commit the same crime. They are from the same country, lead by the same propaganda, taught by the same Madrassa's etc.
That's statistics. When 12 people die from lung cancer because of cigarettes, then others with the same habit are believed to be susceptible, so in turn their life insurance rates are raised higher than non-smokers.

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- So, now statistics...put them all in a basket. That's how it comes across...

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Come on... get with the program.

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- Either a 'personal attack', or a plea...which one do you think it is? Well, based on genis character, and way of posting, I would say the first one. However, let's give him the benefit of the doubt - which program?

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You believe giving them a background check and making them check in with us within 30 days is tantamount to labeling them guilty?

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No. I am using your comment from above to show that a law created along the lines of 'statistics' like that is considering them guilty. Since those are your thoughts and comments, I then draw the conclusion that you consider them guilty. Which then makes no sense whatsoever when you say that this approach is flawed...in the end, one comes to the conclusion that you are arguing just to argue. Whatever.

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May I remind you that they do not have the right to be here in the first place.
It is a privilige the US government is bestowing upon them.
We don't have to let them in, we can chunk them back in the plane and send their asses back.

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Heh. Who's we? Certainly, if you mean a collective 'we', as in all Americans, I think you have found out we all don't agree on that. Clarify.

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They are not US citizens.
No US citizen is being tagged here.
I, for one, am all for militarizing the borders and banning any flights in from terrorist-risk countries.

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to that, I answered this -

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is the stupidest thing I've ever heard...do you think that terrorists would have any problem getting around that? It would only keep innocent people from traveling...terrorists have access to passes...and can go through other countries first...

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So how does one 'decide' what is a terrorist-risk country? If the 'terrorists' can go through any country...than they are all terrorist-risk countries? In other words, do it to everyone. Ok. On that I can agree. But militarizing the border? Well, that doesn't work. It's been proven, time and again. We've created a huge 'zone' between the US and Mexico...doesn't work. North and South Korea...doesn't work. The old Soviet Union...didn't work. China was probably the first to do it...didn't work. In fact, it never has. Just take a look at Isreal. So, based on history, it's a 'stupid' thing to repeat...because we then haven't learned from the mistakes of the past.

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In this case, the terrorists we're worried about are from these certain arab and muslim countries.

This of course is also a flawed because not every terrorist is a registered citizen of these countries nor flying in straight from them. But they do this because checking everyone is too hard. Yeah well, tough cookies.

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Strange is, you admit yourself that this will not prevent terrorists from entering the country...but you support it anyway. You even admit that it is flawed, but keep on supporting it. Why? One could call this 'paranoia' under another pretense...or fear. I personally choose not to live under fear. That's what the terrorists want. And why should we mess with something that isn't going to have the desired effect? What is the point? Just for the sake of doing something, anything?


[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 10-04-2002).]

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Heh. Never thought that InSiDeR would be 'sticking up' for me...

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Don't mention it , no seriously, never mention it again....

Heh, I am sure you would do the same for me... Ermz, or would you....

________________________________________________________________


Lets all just wipe the slate clean and just go along with the thread ok?

Ok...

WS - As fun as watching this Did Not!/Did Too! arguement unfold has been, I think your were right when you tried to get it into mail. I'd rather it disappeared, it's killing the thread.

You'd be amazed how far you have to scroll to find pertinent information on this thread now.

njuice42 -

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...so being tracked would just kinda make me feel like my own government doesn't trust me as a citizen. And a government, built by the people and for the people, not trusting it's own citizens... sounds like a pretty shitty government, if you ask me. Why, it almost sounds... undemocratic...

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Good point. I have to admit I hadn't really thought of it that way. I suppose that's one way to take it. You could also take it as the government wants to make sure that its laws are followed and the rest of us are safe from those that would break them.

WS - My choice of the word 'ethnic' was reasonable. It just means that people of the arabic/muslim background are perceived to be a greater threat to us. We can't focus on a localle to screen against. Our enemies will just fly in from some other country. It has to be based on people. I don't see every Arab or Muslim or Afghani as a threat or a suspicious person but I also don't see why I can't check to be sure. Why do apartment complexes check everyone's background? To make sure they haven't done anything wrong and can pay for their apartment. It probably started when a large group of people with the same basic background continually didn't pay up or caused problems. Apartment complexes got it right though, they check everyone. Of course, they're dealing with a much smaller group of people and they make the prospective tenant pay for the background check. Which comes down to the resources of it all. We can't check everybdy that enters the US. Not yet anyway. I don't like checking only arab/muslims, but I choose to accept that until we can check everyone else too.

GrythusDraconis
"Be careful not to anger the Great Dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with Ketchup" T-Shirt Somewhere