Preserved Topic: Land of the Free? (Page 3 of 3)

Gah! Dumb browser!!

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-04-2002).]

Speaking of browsers, mine is taking longer than it should to load this page due to my 56k (i e shit) modem .

Would a psychotoc/mad sci be so kind as to make a new thread?

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No-one ever said anything about Nazis. And though the quote has its origins in that frameset, Emps (for me, anyway) clearly stated that it applies also to this thread...and it has been used before, here, in other threads in the Asylum to support such, as well without it being misunderstood. But maybe I just overestimate the intelligence of genis. And he probably didn't know that it has been used as such before...

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It is used so much in arguments all over the world, it is cliche. And the fact that no one gets as outraged as me when it is thrown around so carelessly, is itself an outrage! Everyone knows the quotes origin, that is what makes it so powerful. You don't have to mention Nazis, it is implied from the "CONTEXT"!
And just because Emps apologized to anyone who might get offended does not prohibit me from SHOUTING my disapproval of his use of it. That is laughable! That sort of apology is akin to belting out a harsh racial slur, then qualifying it with "no offense."
Everyone should be outraged by such careless use of that quote, as it relates to the senselessness of the holocaust and millions of lives lost to unspeakable evil. And by doing so you have equated my government with Hitler.... HITLER!!!
He directly compared "our security checks and our holding of detainees to the Nazi internment and slaughter of millions", which the Nazis carried out against any race, religion, or political party they didn't like. And THAT is not in any way what we are doing or have done, and it is a disgrace that quote ever surfaced here. It is irresponsible and I will FOREVER stand by my position!

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Well, that's clearly a personal attack. Plain to see.

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Telling you to "can your hippie crap." Is no different than you telling me one of my quotes is "the stupidest thing" you've ever heard. It's equivalent to "can your stupid crap". Anyone want to guess which came first? If you guessed WebShaman's insult, you'd be right!! Although, no prize, sorry.

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So, now statistics...put them all in a basket. That's how it comes across...

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It should, put them all in a basket if you can.
Luckily Iraq, Iran, Lybia, etc, make it easier on us, what with their irresponsible government propaganda, and those convenient borders and all. hyuck.

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"Come on... get with the program." - Either a 'personal attack', or a plea...which one do you think it is?. . .However, let's give him the benefit of the doubt - which program?

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Hey look, Insider, WS did actually (try to) stick up for you. Fact is, Insider did need to get with the program. He disagreed with me, then agreed with me in the same post. If "the program" here on the forum is making a clear point, then Insider definitely wasn't "with the program". And pointing that out is a personal attack? ... sad misconception really. <yoda>hmm, stretching you are, yeees.</yoda>

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No. I am using your comment from above to show that a law created along the lines of 'statistics' like that is considering them guilty.

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And as I reiterate... "No, if we believed that, they would all be immediately arrested." and we would throw them in jail, and sentence them, and on and on. But our security checks are just that... checks. When you are not a US citizen and you come from abroad to our country, should we just trust that you don't have a criminal background, that you don't have links to terrorism?
Why should we be so trusting? Is it in our best interests to let people just waltz in here, no questions asked? Would you let a complete stranger in your house, without asking questions and making sure he's an okay guy first? I wouldn't, but hey maybe i'm weird.

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"We don't have to let them in, we can chunk them back in the plane and send their asses back." - Who's we? Certainly, if you mean a collective 'we', as in all Americans, I think you have found out we all don't agree on that. Clarify.

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Americans "CAN" chunk them back in the plane. It's not a matter of opionion or agreement. It is our right to do so. I didn't say "It is right to do so" I said it is our RIGHT. No matter what you think, we CAN. What needs to be clarified?

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So how does one 'decide' what is a terrorist-risk country? If the 'terrorists' can go through any country

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The countries with the irresponsible governments that espouse anti-American sentiment. And if you think Lybians, Iraqis, Afghanis, and Iranians, can easily move about the world, you are sadly mistaken. You seem to believe the terrorist networks are highly skilled, covert intelligence forces with James Bond-like resources, when the fact is they get in here on unchecked student-visas by way of refugee status from Canada or other such unsecured methods of travel. All of which we now would be checking at the border with this 30-day check-in system.
It seems, my dear friend, you feel like just giving up. That no security precaution could ever save us. You cast shadows on every security precaution rather than coming up with a feasible solution. If you have one, please share it, but negativity is hardly proactive. And neither is pie-in-the-sky "check everyone" idea, which would be best, but won't happen due to the demand for travel here.

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But militarizing the border? Well, that doesn't work. It's been proven, time and again. We've created a huge 'zone' between the US and Mexico...doesn't work. North and South Korea...doesn't work. The old Soviet Union...didn't work. China was probably the first to do it...didn't work. In fact, it never has. Just take a look at Isreal.

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Militarizing the border, doesn't mean stopping everyone, it means stopping illegal crossings.
In the case of the soviet union, they were trying to keep their own people in, and how many people escaped from there during that time through, over, or under the wall in the 28 years it was erected? 5,075. And how many illegals come in through our Mexican border every year? more than a MILLION!! You call that security?
You think we have a "huge zone between US and Mexico"? Our border guards have been shot at by (hopefully) bribed Mexican army personel. Some have been killed. You think our border is policed enough? I say bring in the military. The constitution created it for protecting our borders, and I stand by the Constitution.

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You even admit that it is flawed, but keep on supporting it. Why?

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because there is no perfect solution if you want to keep the borders open to travel, and as i said before... "keeping residents of irresponsible governments out of the US makes us more secure and we have the absolute RIGHT to do so, for the security of our nation". Hey look! I'm repeating myself again.

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One could call this 'paranoia' under another pretense...or fear.

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I can't believe you just called me paranoid.
HEY EVERYBODY! He personally attacked me! That's okay, I'm a big boy... I can handle it.

Why even try genis?

~sigh~

And for the record....

Sorry Jamie for all the trouble I caused you. I now know how you must feel after reading all the shit I posted, and now I know how ignorant I made myself seem.

~sigh~

Insider, stop trying to run someone else down, just so you can feel better about yourself. I'm as happy as you are that you don't want to be annoying anymore. But trying to pass it off onto someone else wont help your cause.

Jestah, you're not believable as a human being, seriously. It's amazing that in the other thread you actually accused someone else of being blindly devoted to their political party. You think this situation is all about politics, that's your oppinion, but don't try and tell people that it's likely, especially without evidence. You sound like a crybaby, and a peon. And Your comments on Texas and radical republicans? Although the point you were trying to make is valid and true, the way you expressed it was a direct, and unfair attack on genis, and every other conservative from Texas. It's as audacious as me saying "its not like all fucking morons come from Long Island" in reply to one of your posts. Its not Texas that has a high concentration of conservatives, its the entire country, virtually 50/50 between 2 right wing parties. (Not to mention that I'm pretty sure (may be wrong though) in proper terms, 'radical' is the word to describe people on the far left of a political spectrum, while 'reactionary' describes people on the far right)

Genis, getting emotional with text over the internet... I'm sure after you cool down you'll realize why people think you sound dumb. People can't hear the tone in your voice, and they arn't reading your reply to them until hours after they originally posted, so it just sounds like you're over-reacting. Maybe you should take a breather before you reply to something you disagree with.


Now..

On the issue at hand, selectively excluding people from entering the United States. I can't tell you I'd make the same dicission if I was in power. But if the current government stops profiling people entering the country, and there is another attack, there will be many more upset people then there is now. The Bush administration has 290,000,000 reasons to do everything they can to keep the country secure, there is no guarenteed rights or freedoms to 'foreigners who'd like to enter the country'. Is this the right dicission, however? Will it keep the terrorists from entering the country, or will it just ensure that even more hate comes from nations who feel picked on by the U.S. government? I really have no answer. I just hope we never have to find out.

I can see where you are coming from Dan and I don't blame you for thinking the way you did on my behalf. But I am not trying to "pass it off," see. I agree with some of what genis sais, sometimes... Not most of the time but sometimes... But it really pissed me off to see that he just had to make a comment on the fact that WS fought in a war.

And genis let me rephrase that for you.

'I didn't appriciate the fact that you made a disrespectful comment to WS because he did something more American than you probably ever will.'

Not only that but WS's heritage has been on this land for milleniums to come by.

So Dan I don't want you thinking I am trying to pass it off. In fact I hope genis would just come clean and start over. It would make things much better on us all if we just chilled you know? I mean I did say "Lets wipe the slate clean and start over," meaning I no longer had hard feeling on genis and that I wanted the thread to continue. But then genis just had to counter WS's personal attack statements so pretentiously.

Sorry if I made it appear that I am "passing," the title around. I hope I don't continue to make people think that. And genis for the best I hope you come clean too , it makes the best of us, even better.

*sigh*
*sigh*
and.....
*sigh*

Good luck.

It's cool, I'm not trying to bad mouth you, just making sure you don't run around calling everyone a name you heard here

It wouldn't reflect that well on all of us you know.
Now lets get back on topic guys.

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Now lets get back on topic guys.

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Amazing how many people have said that, and when WS and I even tried to in our last posts, you and Insider brought it back. Oh well. Here i go again. Defending my rights.

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Why even try genis?

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I was thinking that myself, Insider. But then I realized not everyone reading this is actually participating, so I hold to the hope that someone is gaining enlightenment through our conversation here, even if it is not those participating.

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I'm sure after you cool down you'll realize why people think you sound dumb. . .so it just sounds like you're over-reacting.

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I've been cool this entire time. . . have you, Dan?

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You sound like a crybaby, and a peon.

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hmm... have you? seems no. "Maybe you should take a breather before you reply to something you disagree with."
I know Jestah's comment was aimed at me, but I didn't respond because sometimes it is better to let people just talk (type) themselves into their own hole, without my help. Also why Metahedron's postings have needed no more response from me.

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But it really pissed me off to see that he just had to make a comment on the fact that WS fought in a war. 'I didn't appriciate the fact that you made a disrespectful comment to WS because he did something more American than you probably ever will.'

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And let me reiterate about you reading the entirety of this topic before replying. I did not bring up the fact that WebShaman fought in a war, he brought it up. And he posted that as credible evidence that I did not have the right to speak out against him, or to call his ideals "hippie"-esque.
And you think being in the military qualifies you as the best American you can be? Then you need to re-examine your belief system. To some people it is just a job, and is in no way because they are patriotic. Perhaps they need money for college, or like the vet benefits, or because of family tradition. You in no way know what his reasons for joining were. And no doubt the war he "fought" (because he may have been in it, but maybe just sewed parachutes.) was the Gulf War. And with the ideas he and you espouse, if we were discussing that war right now, I'm sure you both would say it is all about oil (Kuwaiti oil). Fighting that war seem the most American you can be?
Your getting pissed about that is totally out of character for you, because you seem like the most unpatriotic 14-yr old I've ever come across... and that is saying something.

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But then genis just had to counter WS's personal attack statements so pretentiously.

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Have you a problem with my pretention, Insider, or the rebuttle that has exonerated me from the attacks of someone you have recently backed?

Has no one anything to say of WebShaman's flagrant attacks on me? Never have I targeted him until he singled me out. There must be some logical head out there. Speak if you feel you could weather the storm.

Dan - Unlike InSiDeR I can't even begin to imagine what your talking about. If you actually read what I've written you'll probably see clear as day that I've called no one on this forum a radical Republican nor have I suggested that Texas has a high concentration of radicals. If you want me to explain myself more clearly by all means ask. Don't accuse me of being offensive or demeaning because you disagree with my opinions. The really odd thing is you're here chastizing me on being offensive and you call me a cry baby and a peon. It's just universally uncool to accuse people of being insulting for not having similar beliefs as you and then insult them.

Of course we can chalk this one up to 'not all Canadians read things the wrong way and over react,' but in this situation one did. YMMV

-Jestah
Cell 277

*Super Ultra Mega Sigh*

This is my fault... I flamed genis.

Sorry.

Now everyone shut up and discuss the land of the fucking free!

Edit: You know what? Fuck everything I just said....

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You in no way know what his reasons for joining were.

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And no doubt the war he "fought" (because he may have been in it, but maybe just sewed parachutes.) was the Gulf War.

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Moron. He put his life up for our country. Did you? Oh you didn't? Keep your god damn hypocritical mouth shut please.

Thats all the sticking up for WS fighting in a war for me. Now I'll just stick up for WS because, well he's a great guy and I admire him.

[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 10-05-2002).]

What war was WebShaman in anyway?

I was just reading Emps early words in this post and I have to say that I am very worried about national databases and id cards and such like. I do believe this kind of thing can be turned against the populace without proper caution.

But I must say that none of us have any privacy right now and not even before 9/11. In the US, the social security number was never supposed to be an ID number you can't even get a credit card or have your lawn mowed without being asked for it. The point is that I really don't think it is the existence of these measures that are the real threat.

What is the real threat? I have to share this awesome quote I came across a few years back. I really think it demonstrates precisely what we need to guard against:

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When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England, Professor Alexander Tyler wrote about the fall of the Athenian republic over a thousand years ago:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.

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Well, I think it's when the public forgets or no longer knows why freedom is so important. As long as we all know what it is we stand for, then I think these measures will be kept in check by our representatives because we'll insist they do our bidding.

About these specific things due to the war... I'll reiterate that I think they will only be needed as long as the Islamist terrorist threat is real. Right now the threat is very real and until we have a few more victories against the terror masters (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria), it will remain as such.

( I didn't jump into that fracas above because it seemed to be going so well on its own... and, genis, I believe it was the Gulf War in which WebShaman served his country with honor. )

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-05-2002).]

~Air Hug~

genis let it go already.


-tiki, cell 478

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gaining enlightenment through our conversation here

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Nope. Just entertainment.

it's gone, tiki. hope it stays that way.

thanks bugs...yes, the Gulf War...

Yes, I have killed to 'protect' (though, in hindsight, it doesn't really seem to have protected American freedoms, now did it?) freedom...namely, the freedom of Kuwait. I was in the War, and I lost friends there...

I have served my country. I 'paid' my debt, if you will...

Bugs brings up the point, and the gist of it. Freedom is a state of mind...not a law, not a rule. When people forget this, then it goes...in the case of America, many are willing to 'sacrifice' their freedom for false security.

So 9/11. Well, besides other 'happenings', I think it has more than proved that there can never be enough security, namely, that no amount of 'security measures' will stop, or protect, someone from such an act. In light of that, and as Dan pointed out, who really knows what these 'new' securities will bring...I personally see no real reason for them. Today the 'Muslems'...tomorrow, the world? Well, whatever...paranoia...and freedom falls...it's almost like McCarthy-ism...

The worst thing about losing Freedom, is that one seems to miss it most, when it's gone...and fighting to get it back is much harder than losing it...

And as for genis? Well, take the rest to mail, as I suggested before. That's all I have to say about...you. One thing...I didn't suggest (or you misunderstood, once again...) that you were paranoid...heh...or I would of said that directly. Namely, I mean the limiting of freedoms and the implimenting of such measures. namely, that train of throught, that meaning, that opinion. So chill, yes?

totally chilled.

ah, forums. free speech at its unfettered best.

Enemy of the State
The Siege


Watch these two movies if you think about this sort of thing all the time.

There some long posts here and it is getting slow (and InSiDeR asked so nicely ) so this is continued here:
http://www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum17/HTML/000554.html

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor