Preserved Topic: Do YOU believe in GOD?

I'll give my life story on this a little later.

Right now I want to know if you do.

Do you?

InSiDeR: Thats a question coming laden with all sorts of sorts of assumptions.

Do I believe in a Judaeo-Christiam God?

Slightly better might be:

Do YOU believe in a GOD?

or even better:

Do YOU believe in any GODs?

I'm going with something like 'Do YOU believe in the existence of some kind of divine creator entity?'

My answer is that I see no evidence for the existence of such a being but I can't disprove that one exists (its impossible).

Emps

Another almost similair question is also: "is there a God?" and "what is a God?" Is God the perfect creature, something that you strive to become like, or is (s)he just our creator?

I don't believe in any of the God's presented to us by the "main" religions, e.g Christianity, Islam. I do believe that there is something divine out there that created this place we call the Universe. But I doubt that this something has any kind of influence on our lives (except from creating the Universe), it is simply is here somewhere. It might even be possible that the something used all of its powers creating the Universe so it died when it was finnished?



-= Veneficuz =-
"Mundus vult decipi. Ergo decipiatur."

I think you people are intelligent to know what god I am talking about (christian) but if you believe in something else, share it with us and explain why! As of now I do not believe in the christian god or any god. I guess you could say I am athiest.

your question is certainly not obvious.
did you mean GOD? or God?
or did you mean GoD? or god?
please be more specific.
also, did u mean western or eastern or northern?
how can we answer without knowing what you mean?
sheeesh

Affirmative.

Generally, I am convinced a supreme being exists.

Specifically, I am convinced the God of the bible exists and is alive and well.

. . : newThing

InSiDeR,

What do you mean by atheist? Do you believe in the non-existence of God? Or are you just not convinced either way on that question? There are different brands of atheism and it is usually a good idea to know which is which.

For example, I've met atheists who vehemently say there is *no* god, period end of story. I've met others who are really agnostic on the whole question but still call themselved atheists.

. . : newThing

All one has to do is to look at the research into Chaos Theory to see that even with the chaos of the universe there's some sort of pattern to it. You then have to ask yourself whether whatever esoteric rules that exist out there to force this patterning is something that just spontaneously occurred, or whether the rules were set forth somehow before everything began in the first place. And if set forth prior to the Big Bang, then by whom?

Are we just microbes in some being's petri dish, or are we mere random specks of cosmic dust? I wish I knew. All I can do is make guesses, however educated...

For me, I believe in some higher power/destiny... Does it manifest itself into a singular being I would name as a god? No, not really. For me, I think that such figures are more shaped by beliefs than existing in such a state to begin with. Say, that I think the gods and goddesses we've purported to believe in over the centuries are more images reflected off / projected onto this higher state/entity/collection of entities., rather than distinct individual beings in their own right.

Is any one religion more right than any other? No. I think they all provide a purpose to humanity, helping us get to whereever it is we need to get in the grander scheme of things. I do believe in destiny, serendipity, divine coincidence.. But I also beleive in free will... I think as individuals, most of us have complete freedom to do as we will, whilst others seem drawn towards specific destinies. Humanity as a whole.. I'm not sure how much free will we have as a species, beyond the opportunity to destroy ourselves...

Heh.. seems I've delved a bit off the beaten track again. Ahh well. I'll not bother to delete it. Someone might actually find it interesting.

Witherin

i've read enough of these types of threads, and enough of bug's posts to say that until further notice, whatever bugimus says he believes, i believe too.
and as a side note - thanks bugimus, for communicating the christian faith so well.
so... yes, i DO believe there is a GOD.

- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

I think we should be sure of our terms:

Atheist

Agnostic

That puts me firmly in the old agnostic category - atheism is a belief based on a complete lack of evidence

My 'favourite' 'religion' must be Satanism - it must be the only belief sytem out there that has their diety defined by another religion (and one which they despise to boot!!). Never having met one (knowingly) I'm not sure how they would react to being informed that.

Anyway this stating what we believe is probably a little stale around here - more interesting might be why you want know InSiDeR?

Emps

well...if your talking the Bible God...I beleive that he esisits

well...interesting choice of favorite religion Emperor, santanism. Number one, their not the only religion to have their diety defined by another religion and second, they are responsible for a number of murderes, mutilations and rapes, so, ya, I guess their a good religion. (im being sarcastic on that last part, just so you know)

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-14-2002).]

What if God turns out to be a big chicken??? Eternal consequences, thats what!!!!!!!!

. . .

Pascal's wager (one of the great thinkers of all time)

quote:

---

Pascal goes on to propose his famous wager to show that it is reasonable to believe in God. Either God exists or he does not, and we cannot use reason to determine which alternative is true. However, both our present and our future lives may be affected by the alternative we choose. Since choosing to believe that God exists may lead to eternal life and happiness, and nothing is lost if we are wrong about the other choice, it is better to accept the theistic alternative.

---

btw, in passing I believe either you have faith or you don't
it has nothing to do with what you think or try to rationalize or reason
having said that, i do not have faith...i wish i did , but i can't ever
imagine having faith

strange?

I REMEMBER ONE TIME I TRIED TO CREATE A ROCK SO BIG THAT EVEN I COULDN'T LIFT IT. I'D MAKE THE ROCK BIG, THEN I'D MAKE MYSELF STRONGER, BIGGER ROCK, STRONGER ME, IT WENT ON AND ON AND ON... EVENTUALLY I GOT TIRED AND A BIT ANGRY AT THIS FOOLISHNESS SO I BROKE THE ROCK INTO MANY MANY LITTLE PIECES. ALL YOU LITTLE PIECES KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT, I ASSUME.

ER, HMM, DID I HAVE A POINT WITH THIS STORY? MAYBE NOT.

"NOBODY CREATES IT LIKE GOD"

Ok people, LISTEN (please don't skim through this like I have your posts before )

I hate having to repeat this over and over again especially to my friends, but lets begin.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
When I tell people I don't believe in god (any god) they automatically suspect that I think that there ISN'T one. But not believing is simply not thinking that there is not to be confused with thinking that there isn't. Now could there be a god? Yes and that is a very strong possibility. Now is it exactly like the one the bible portrays? Now thats debatable and I personally think that if there is a supreme being he/she/it wouldn't be much like the one the bible portrays but then again I could be wrong.

Atheism in websters is someone that believes that there is no god. Now I have talked to people time and time again and I believe to be atheist is to not believe in anything. Some define it as needing visible and physical proof to believe in something. Others define it as having another opinion aside from god.

Why don't I believe in god you ask? Well after spending all of my elementary years in a Catholic Private School, listening to hypocritical teachers day to day, going to mass at 9:00 A.M. every tuesday, thursday, and sunday, I began to realize how much people devote to something that is very questionable. I remember my third grade teacher once telling our class that heaven and hell fought battles (I have no idea where that came from) and then she said that she believes we won the last one (right thats really from the chatholic bible). I have read most of the bible and see some of it as tall tales. Now see what we have here is the existance of exaggeration, lets take moses for example: Allegedly moses parted the see and set free to all the slaves in egypt from the tyrant pharo who enslaved them upon his monarch. Now supposedly there IS proof that the sea has been parted before, but also that there was an earthquake. Now could it be that then an eldar stretched the tale and told them the story of moses in relation to several other life expiriences of his, and then the kids believed it and the old man dies and that generation is left with an exaggeration. Now I am not saying that happened but it's a possibility in my opinion.

What do I believe in? I believe in the strong possibilty of the big bang or the open universe theory or the one that most people know me for and is my own: I believe that quite possibly there is an explination uncomprehendable by our minds. We can only understand so much yet there is an infinate span of knowledge left to aquire. Maybe we will find out when we die maybe we won't but I guess we will all find out won't we (thats rhetorical).

Now when you think about it more clearly you may realize that the belief and existance of how we came to be is understandable by a 3-year-old. To make it sound easier, a child 3 years of age can understand how we got here in the christian religion. Now I think that the explination of why we are all here is definately NOT that easy to understand, and is not as simple as "Oh it was God the Almighty." Sometimes I think of god as an excuse as a lot of the questions we cannot answer. But then again over the centuries people have molded and humanized him to make him more understandable for the common people.

If someone younger then I were to ask me if there was a god, I wouldn't say yes, and I wouldn't say no, I would say I cannot answer that because honestly I don't think anyone can answer that with factual evidence. They could say yes but really believe that there is not knowing for a fact, and vice versa.

Another thing that I Hate is christians that over abuse the religion. Like people that say If you don't go to church you go to hell, or people that say Harry Potter is satanic and that you shouldn't let your children see it, and especially the ones that say I pray for the middle-eastern cultures that will go to hell because they don't choose to believe in god OR because they have never heard of god. If you don't go to church, you shouldn't go to hell, and as to the rest above. Why go to church? Why go and sit and listen to someone bark about how you should live your life? (Methodist). Why should you go and sit and listen to a man while he reads to you from a book of his beliefs while you sing and eat a symbolic meal?(Catholic).

Now don't get me wrong. I don't dislike people that don't believe in god. Infact I admire most for keeping a strong will. Without the christian faith the world would be in chaos, not because of the 10 commandments and thal shalt not kill but because so much is based on the christian faith. Think now B.C. and A.D. If I were to prove the christian faith wrong then I would ruin historic knowledge.

What is hell? I have read on and on about hell and its really not a bad place! No really! Supposedly it is like a mountain growing underground getting large and wider the deeper you go, and there are 9 layers and as long as your away from the 4th ,5th ,8th , and 9th layer your in good shape! But I got some of this information from a cult website so don't go believing all of this.

I think that if you live a good life as a good person and a good attitude towards future then you will end up in an alright after life weather it's heaven, pergatory, hell, re-incarnation, or other.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Please remember this is MY opinion, I know there may be several contradictions and hypocrisy involved but when you point that out try to be a little nice about it .

I thank you for taking the time to read my theories, thoughts, and beliefs. No not you the one that skimmed through the paragraphs and ended up here I want you to go read it from the top! j/k

InSiDeR: Your main arguement against the existence of a God seems to be more an arguement against organised religions (don't even get me started on them - is it going to Catholic school that does it to a person as it worked for me too??) and you can always strike out on your own and find your own path to the divine if you don't like the flavours currently on offer (how would you like your metaphors mixed sir?). Then again I suppose the wide variety of religions could be an arguement against God but then it could be argued that they are like the three blind men describing an elephant.

And this:

quote:

---

I believe to be atheist is to not believe in anything

---

Now I thought that was Nihilism:
www.dictionary.com/search?q=nihilism

A true atheist believes there is no God.

Emps

I am suprised you read it!

Yes atheism can be debated.

Doobie, i am very weary of what I belive... but still I am convinced that theres junk out there, a spiritual side to stuff...

I think a good question to ask is this: do you believe that when you die... you are totally gone. No nothing. Zilch Zero... Like you never were?

Cuz... if so... and I believe in God... um... I wont know I ever believed... but IF there is a heaven I got mah seating covered.

[This message has been edited by eyezaer (edited 05-14-2002).]

"Sometimes I think of god as an excuse as a lot of the questions we cannot answer."

That is right along the line of my own theory. Primitive man didn't understand what was going on around him, so he made up spirits and totems and gods to explain his world. As the wonders around us were eventually found to be natural and not supernatural in origin (lighting, fire, storms, etc) then some religous thought was phased out and replaced by others. Religion evolved (I love saying that ).

There are still mysteries to be explained. How did it all begin? What happens to you when you die? I believe religions and their gods will be around as long as there are big questions to be answered.

I am an atheist. There is and never was a supernatural super-being.

quote:

---

What if God turns out to be a big chicken??? Eternal consequences, thats what!!!!!!!!

---

CALVIN AND HOBBES!! omg that was the best comic stip, EVER.

Ok, continue your theological debate

I believe there are more 'evolved' beings than Man out there...and that some of them have a 'higher' consciousness...so, we would consider some of them to be 'gods' in comparison to ourselves...sort of along the lines of what BeeKay said.

As to an 'ultimate' being...well, that would be the end point of evolution, to finally evolve into perfection...whether or not that exists...I have no idea. One thing is sure...we will all find out, sooner or later...either there is, or there is not. Though I do believe in life after death, I'm still not sure if that would lead to meeting an 'ultimate' being...maybe there are diferent 'levels' of consciousness, death (for this existence) being only one step to the next 'level'...maybe one must go through many such 'steps'...

I have been thining about dieing yet again.... and um... I can not imagen myself not being. I cant comprehend an end to myself...

bugs beliefs line up with mine for the most part as well, which most of you knew anyway. and really, the unexplainable things i've seen and experienced give me a complete knowledge that there is a God who is just as the Christian bible describes Him.

insider, one initial observation is that the catholic church holds a lot of beliefs that aren't based in scripture, i wouldn't necessarily judge your thoughts on a christian God based on that.

one thing often missed is that what we know of the Big Bang, evolution, etc., lines up quite well with what the bible says. most christians, to stereotype, don't know much of what the bible actually says, they know what they heard from their parents or a sunday school teacher or a priest and have never read it for themselves. anyone wants some interesting recommended reading on this let me know.

my very brief view, as i've experienced different sides of all this (grew up catholic and fairly "good", ditched it all and did my own thing, then came to know God in a non-denominational setting) is that we're all designed with a God-shaped void, so to speak. we all fill that void, or try to, in different ways, whether it be with God Himself, or new agey spiritual stuff, or drugs, alcohol, sex, work, relationships, success, etc. but the only real completeness is found in God. your mileage may vary

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Well, that's all good and fine, Fig. However, let's propose a theory - that mankind succeeds in creating artificial intelligence, and that it doesn't believe in God, because it doesn't have this 'void'. So, who is correct? We humans, because we (as you put it) have this 'void' or the 'new' intelligence which doesn't?

On the other hand, maybe this 'new' intelligence would also believe. Who knows? It's just a proposed theory...

The description of the forum includes

quote:

---

Is there a Dog?

---

I think that is the true question.

Can someone who is dyslexic truly believe in God?
or, is the best they can attain a love of Dog?

counterfeitbacon (and Emps I guess)

Not that I'm a believer, but i always find it a bit disturbing when people generalize so widely about satanism. There are plenty of different beliefs and practices within satanism.

You have the ususal nut-case devil-worshipers that actually believe in and praise something that resembles the christian devil.

But then you have the satanism of Church of Satan (LaVey).
They took the name as a counterpart to christianity since they believe christianity base much of their religion on fear of god and limitations in the way you live your life.

They despise sacrificing/violating other lifeforms which means no chopping of heads of chickens and eating babies. That part of satanism could be boiled down to:
You are your own god. If anything is to change you got to make it happen.
Then spice that up with a few wiccan-like rituals (sometimes quite sexual oriented).
(which suggests that they believe in a greater power, albeit a faceless one, beyond good and evil).

The Satanic Bible (like most books on religion) is actually quite a good read, regardless of your beliefs.

Just thought I'd mention this

Um, are we allowed to yell at God for using all caps and bold at the same time?

Yeah, I believe there is a God, but it's now getting very late and God is not going to save me from myself tomorrow morning if I don't get to sleep soon.

Nimraw is right - I was being distinctly stereotypical about Satanism. I have the Satanic Bible and it is an interesting read (and apprently tasty as one of my dogs has eaten the cover!!) - although for some reason none of my (even mildly) Christian friends will read it. I did once have a plan to get rid of Jehovah's Witnesses (and any other door-to-door Christians) by only accepting their literature if they took a copy of the Satanic Bible but I got enough funny looks buying one copy let alone 10-20!!

Emps

oh well...

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-14-2002).]

Did that answer your question bugs?

Anyone esle?

I had a satanic bible years ago, but the darn thing grew legs and ran away.

Where can one get a copy nowadays? It's not exactly spotlighted at any local bookstore ... Amazon maybe?

Does anyone believe in the tooth fairy?

How about santa claus?
in australia they have the christmas kangaroo
i know cuz i saw it on SNL.
your dad has to box the christmas kangaroo
and if he loses the kangaroo has his way with him.

is it true that during your life, i.e as you grow older:
1) you believe in Santa
2) you don't believe in Santa
3) you are Santa

Into some black magic there BeeKay?

I have tried some to hold some stuff, seances (spelling?) and such, nothing has happened yet. I have always wanted to try some black magic before. I am not really into the whole elemental magic, I am more fond of contact with the dead. But back to the topic!

well, i can tell you that many scientific facts/theories have come about/been figured out as a result of the christian bible. Such as

* the ten dimensional universe (the basis for quarks and the string theorum)
* how ancient dinosaurs could fly
* why people lived so old in the bible (age studies)

and many more, I just forgot them at the moment

Any book of fairy-tales would have been equally helpful to the progress of science IMO.
(Okay, Theology may have been influenced by the bible )

WebShaman, interesting proposition. my first instinct would be that no, the new intelligence wouldn't have that same void, because while it may have intelligence it still doesn't have a soul. interesting idea tho...

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Beekay:

You could pick up a new copy at amazon, here
Or just do a search for LaVey in there.

Fig, my people believe that all things have souls...so I believe that the new intelligence would have a soul...however, how do you decide what has a soul, and what does not?

To those messing around with what they call 'black magic'...I would leave that alone, if I was you...without the proper teachings, and guidance, you could get into real trouble. Now, I'm not about to get into a 'howto...' discussion on the topic. Just know (and witnessed) a few things, in the presence of somebody who knew what they were doing. Apparently, there are real dangers, and one has to take proper precautions...it's not really something that one should 'play' around with...

Of course, that depends on what one means by 'black' magic...many of the things that the shamans practice among my people have been considered 'black' magic in the past...of course, they knew what they were doing.

I'd second WS on that one - even if there is nothing in it things can scare the pants off you and it only takes someone who is slightly unstable or who has perhaps lost a loved one recently and things can get out of hand quickly (and you don't want nervous breakdowns and suicides on your hands).

Emps

quote:

---

* the ten dimensional universe (the basis for quarks and the string theorum)
* how ancient dinosaurs could fly
* why people lived so old in the bible (age studies)

---

flying dinosaurs? i don't think so. birds are probably
the descendants of dinosaur relatives but pterosaurs
are quite distinct. p.s. what's an ancient dinosaur
versus a recent dinosaur?

people lived so old? i'm sure they kept accurate
records of their birthdays on their hard drives.

10 dimensional universe? that's a new one
and to think we gave all those noble prizes
in physics to people who ripped off the bible.

if you believe science is bad you should keep it to yourself
you just made a very strong case for it.

I do not believe in any gods. Every god that has ever been worshipped is a fabrication of human design.

I must say, however, that if the Christian god of the bible does exist, I would hate him more than anything.

I would not hate him. He would leave me indifferent,
just as he is indifferent with us - indifferent to pain, indifferent to suffering,
indifferent to all the evil that man inflicts on fellow man.

It amuses me as to how some people selfishly think God plays such an important
part in their little lives....yet they never comment on why
God would allow children to die of disease or starvation
every stinking day of the week....their usual answer is "it's all
part of God's plan"

well you know what, I would prefer a God who's plan
is for everyone to be happy and healthy...but again
i'm sure the real plan is just way too complicated
for me to understand right?

InSiDeR,

Yes, that answered my question quite well, thanks. I read your post word for word a few times to make sure I got everything straight. I'm going to respond to your post section by section.

I've never quite understood why anyone would believe very strongly in the non-existence of something and I'm glad to hear you are not one of them. In my book of definitions, I would consider you an agnostic.

I'm not sure what it is about Catholic schools that has this effect on people. Hypocrites in the church? Um... yes there are quite a few but who ever said the church was filled with perfect people? Jesus came to heal a lost and dying world not a perfect world. With all due respect, the existence of hypocrites in the church doesn't really address the question of the existence of God.

I think what your teacher meant about battles between Heaven and Hell is the references to how Lucifer opposed God and he and a third of the angels were banished forever for their actions. We had a decent discussion about that in this very forum about a year ago.

The parting of the "Reed" Sea is another interesting issue indeed. Remember that the account states that the winds blew all night long very strongly and that is when the Hebrews were able to cross. Whatever you do, please don't think that it happened the way Charlton Heston did it in the movie I mentioned "Reed" sea instead of Red sea because the last time I looked into it, that was most likely where it occurred and it is a much shallower area than one would think and the possibility of crossing it under the right conditions is hardly out of the question.

So to the question of what you do believe in. I honestly can't see how the Big Bang theory contradicts the existence of God. The opening words of the Pentateuch simply state that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Personally, I think we will continue to learn more and more about the actual physical processes that occurred during the creation of the universe and I can't see how any knowledge gained in that process challenges, or even needs to challenge, whether there was something greater behind it all.

I don't think we should confuse an answer to a question with a scientific explanation of a process. Think about what you said about *understanding* the creation of the universe versus answering who did it. If I were to ask you who designed your web page, what would you say? Most likely you would answer, "I did". Simple, to the point, done. If I were to ask you, "How was this web page created? What tools were used? What languages? Explain to me the process behind building something this cool." That could take quite some time to answer to a person's satisfaction.

So you hate some things religious people do and believe... welcome to the club! But remember we are still dealing with people and many of the things you described are opinions and not necessarily mandated by biblical teachings. We could always discuss each of those separately and, in fact, in my congregation we don't agree on lots of those types of issues.

Hell not a bad place? You just got through explaining how you didn't accept the bible, so you can hardly start going on about the nature of Hell after that. First things first, eh?

Why do you think that "living a good life" is the ticket? And did you ever stop to think what defines a "good life"?

Phew!

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 05-15-2002).]

Here is a question that I never hear asked.

If there is a God, what is his/her origin?



[This message has been edited by beaner (edited 05-15-2002).]

Beaner: one of my cousins and me had an arguement back when I was a believer about where he came from, he kept saying that he was always there and I was like but that can't be and so on....

Bugs: Yea Hell isn't that bad of a place so If i end up going there I don't care! Although I don't believe in hell lol. If beekay got a satan book then maybe we could be sure on hell hehe...

Why Do I think living a good life is the ticket? Well in my opinion living a good life is living by doing what you want in a sane and appropriate sence. Aside from the religion topic I think everyone should be "nice" lol. I think you should always try to think in the positive way and even if people are mean to you don't be mean back try to eliminate the tension between yourselves. So lets say there is a god, I think theoretically if there is a god then living a good life in an appropriate and optimistic way will get you to heaven.

It was really hard for me to explain this.....

Oh and personally I thought my third grade teacher was an idiot LOL

St Seneca why would you hate him? Do tell!

ShootingStar - those are all human problems....what has that to do with God? Imho it's our responsibility to sort it out...I'm sure that if God does exist, he has much more important things to do...

Welcome beaner to the Asylum...in answer to your question, God is timeless, so exists outside of time...there is no beginning, and no end...I know, the concept is hard to grasp...but without time, there is no 'movement'...one exists in all points at once.

Looky, Bugs, I beat ya to it...or do you have a different explanation? If so, let's hear it, I'm kinda curious...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-16-2002).]

<way off topic>
Could this really be?!?!

Have I missed something?

I just realized.
A thread about religion with 40+ posts and it has no personal insults or petty bickering in it yet!!

geez, you might think we actually have learned a thing or two. This is very unsettling if we want to keep our asylum status. Guess this means that hell really have frozen over... *lol*

</way off topic>

quote:

---

I'm sure that if God does exist, he has much more important things to do...

---

WS:
Name one.
Please

I guess we have set different priorities for God.
Mine would be:
8h00 have breakfast
9h00 consult with Alan Greenspan on portfolio
9h30 call broker with hot tip
10h00 cure cancer
10h30 solve middle east crisis
11h00 toilet break
12h00 lunch with Elvis
14h00 prevent forthcoming asteroid crisis
15h00 watch spiderman or episode 2, decisions..decisions
16h00 go for pedicure
17h00 get ready for date with Marilyn Monroe
17h30 send nasty email to satan

WS, interesting observation. i consider a soul something that is only God-given, so i don't see a man-made object having a soul. when you say you think "everything" has a soul, what exactly does that include?

i find shooting stars comments interesting. people seem to miss free will playing such a role in the pain that we see. we have a choice to do whatever we want, follow and believe in God or not, etc., and there will always be those that choose to abuse that right and hurt others, sometimes in catastrophic ways (9/11 for example). 'but where was God? why didn't He step in and stop it?' we ask. why should He? we've turned away from God in general, embraced values that go directly against what the bible teaches, removed as much of God as possible from our schools, government, etc., yet suddenly we go 'oh, help me' and expect results? God does step into situations where He's asked to by people who are truly following him and reaching out to Him (do some searching on uganda and prayer and transformation and see what you find), that just doesn't describe a lot of people.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

I'll call it quits for this thread.
I truly believe in tolerance, in "to each his own"
we should not try to sell others our beliefs

if you do great, if you don't great as well
peace to everyone

To ShootingStar:

*The Ten-Dimensional universe is a theory that says that instead of the four basic dimensions that we know of (length, width, height and time), their are actually ten. The extra six come from heaven and hell, but since time is irrelivant there their is only three dimensions in each. Those dimensions would then overlap with our dimensions to make ten (think "Planes" from DnD, Baldurs Gate etc.). The theory was invented by a german scientist and proved through years worth of mathematics.

*Ok, maybe I wasn't clear about this...by ancient dinosaurs I meant anything that lived around that time that could fly. All of the flying lizards (thats what i'll call them, I forgot the proper definition) bone structures were scientifically proven to have been to heavy to fly, so (some scientist) said that maybe the air was denser then it could support the flying lizards heaviness, because they could get more lift from the denser air when they flapped their wings.

*The theory of the denser air was then taken farther to say that if the air was denser then it could soak up more deadly rays from the sun. It has been scientifically proven that if we were not bombarded with those rays then we could live anywhere from 10-20% longer. In the (chrisitian/catholic) bible, it records people living 120 - 130 years and more. While I think that this could be because of conflicting calenders, that theory could also have something to do with it.

*Check out these books: Book 1, Book 2, Book 3

*There was another book called Biblical Truth's in Modern Science, but it's not listed on Amazon.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-16-2002).]

BeeKay click here for your satanic bible

Well, actually I have no intentions of buying the satanic bible. I was just curious if anyplace actually sells the book or do stores not sell it because it might offend the customers ...

ahem ... all righty then ... let's jump in and have some fun here ... ~rolls up sleeves~

we have a choice to do whatever we want, follow and believe in Allah or not, etc., and there will always be those that choose to abuse that right and hurt others, sometimes in catastrophic ways (9/11 for example). 'but where was Allah? why didn't He step in and stop it?' we ask. why should He? we've turned away from Allah in general, embraced values that go directly against what the Koran teaches, removed as much of Allah as possible from our schools, government, etc., yet suddenly we go 'oh, help me' and expect results? Allah does step into situations where He's asked to by people who are truly following him and reaching out to Him (do some searching on uganda and prayer and transformation and see what you find), that just doesn't describe a lot of people.

Did you read that paragraph carefully? Did you note the simple, but important changes I made? I could just as easily slipped in Zeus or Ra (keep in mind these ancient gods are just history to us, but were actually believed and worshipped in their time). God did not step in because there is no God, or Allah, or Zeus, or Ra ...

Of course, this doesn't prove anything and I realize that. I just think that it is odd that a person's religion happens to be the right religion when there are and have been so many to choose from.

And on another note, I am a very big proponent of separation of church and state. The statement concerning removing God from school and government is false as written. The important distinction is that there can not be any "state-sponsored" religion. Students can not be forced to pray a certain prayer or to even pray at all. On the other hand, religion in schools is alive and well. All students are permitted to pray on their own, carry bibles, organize religious clubs, etc. It is when the school makes a religious function mandatory or when it appears that the school is promoting one religion over others or promoting any religion over non-religion that the red flags go up.


[This message has been edited by BeeKay (edited 05-16-2002).]

Well, if the goverment was really concerned about seperation of church and state, im sure that they wouldn't of overlooked these things...

*Remove all mentions of God or religion from text books and the pledge of allegiance
*No more Golden Rule...thats one's a No-No, because it came from the bible
*The moral code, practically all of it came from the Bible
*Better not teach abstinance, the only western religion that promotes it it Christianity
*While were at it, how about the teachers can't talk about ANY religion ([sarcasm]were not going to single out Christianity now are we
[/sarcasm]
*Kids can no longer pray, talk or do anything remotly related to any religion
*Give up our basic right, freedom of speech

...there

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Another thing in responce to InsiDers post way back up there in the thread:

quote:

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Another thing that I Hate is christians that over abuse the religion. Like people that say If you don't go to church you go to hell, or people that say Harry Potter is satanic and that you shouldn't let your children see it, and especially the ones that say I pray for the middle-eastern cultures that will go to hell because they don't choose to believe in god OR because they have never heard of god. If you don't go to church, you shouldn't go to hell, and as to the rest above. Why go to church? Why go and sit and listen to someone bark about how you should live your life? (Methodist). Why should you go and sit and listen to a man while he reads to you from a book of his beliefs while you sing and eat a symbolic meal?(Catholic).

---

Every christian/catholic that I know (about ten, minus people at our church) are very conservative, and don't do any of the things that you mentioned above.


[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 05-16-2002).]

YES! I believe in God & I am a christian.

-Andrew

It takes a lifetime to die.

You confuse me with some of your points, but I will try to address each one.

*Remove all mentions of God or religion from text books and the pledge of allegiance
School instruction concerning religion is fine in a learning context. To understand history, society, art, etc. you need to know about all the religions that were influential. It's when you promote one religion as "correct" over another or over non-belief that you are going over the line. Would you be ticked off if a teacher tried to push Wiccan beliefs on your child ... not in a instructional context but rather in a "you need to believe and practice this" way?
And the pledge of allegiance was without god reference until the 1950s Read here ( http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled.htm ) for information about this.

*No more Golden Rule...thats one's a No-No, because it came from the bible
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you was a concept around long before the bible.

*The moral code, practically all of it came from the Bible
Not sure what moral code you are referring to here. Acting morally did not come just from the bible and the bible only.

*Better not teach abstinance, the only western religion that promotes it it Christianity
Abstinance is a smart, safe concept for safety and medical reasons with or without religious support.

*While were at it, how about the teachers can't talk about ANY religion ([sarcasm]were not going to single out Christianity now are we [/sarcasm]
A teacher can not promote any religion, but they can talk about it in an instructional manner with equal treatment given to all religions being discussed.

*Kids can no longer pray, talk or do anything remotly related to any religion
Read my earlier post. Kids can talk, pray, wear religious clothing, carry religious materials, organize religious clubs etc. They have the right to express their beliefs just like they have the right to not be forced to participate in religious practices they don't believe in.

*Give up our basic right, freedom of speech
This one comes out of left field! What are you trying to say here?

quote:

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you was a concept around long before the bible.

---

Ha! The Bible was written about 2,500 years ago...

The bible was written over a period of over one thousand years. Not just "about 2500 years ago", its a collection of different writings by different people. Its very likely that many of the stories in the bible were passed around long before the Christian faith was started, and therefor were infact written, or at least created before the bible was. But in my oppinion, it would be stupid to credit the bible with something like "do unto others..." perhaps thats where the exact words come from, but anyone who isn't naturaly a bad person, doesn't need the bible to be nice to other people.

Ya, I know about that, I guess I'm just defending myself, oh well, your religion is your religion, and I don't really care about that...oh well...

It amazes me how the Aslyum can go though 60 replies in a thread and have no bickering, swearing or degrading comments that have to be filtered out.

Yeah, take that you heathen..
Anyways, I have a question for all those that do "believe". When one dies, do you believe that they live on in another life? A life in heaven, persumably free of time, like God himself. Do we continue to learn and grow once we die? If we don't, what is the use of those seriously mentally handicaped, or infants so young, who would never understand what has happened, and would never appreciate where they are. Or, if we do, then persumably after an infinate amount of time, we'd have an infinate amount of knowledge, no one would be the same as they were on earth, but everyone would eventually accumulate the same experiences and knowledge, and we'd all essentially think, and act exactally the same. Perhaps we'd be perfect. But no diversity, no one is special, nothing can exist that people don't like, or it would be unperfect, and without something to dislike, nothing could be likeable. Heaven doesn't seem very appealing anymore. What do you think?

Personally, I don't think that there is a "life after death". Science can't prove or disprove the bible, or torah, or qu'ran, but we do know that everything we learn, see, experience. Everything we touch, taste, smell. Everyone we know, everyone we love, this is because of activity in our brian, an organ that gets damaged, and loses these memories, and eventually dies. An organ that once dead, no longer gathers and prcesses information for us anymore. Its not a soul that remembers for you, or determines whats on your mind, its your mind itself. Once dead, everything you've ever done lives on, but in the memories of others. All thats left of you is your legacy, not your physical presence.
Personal oppinions of course, as I'm sure the bible leaves room for this (it seems to leave room for a lot of things, eh?).

- Dan -

No your not...go away...or get a life...

In the words of an inmate (I forgot who):

"Create beutifull things. Or kill yourself. Either way the world should benifit"

This quote applies to you...

Ok, back on the subject:

I think that you have a soul, and the after you die it goes to heaven and you get a new body...Christianity is based on faith, it's not a seeing is beleiving, and I think that it happens to be one of the most tolerant religions out their.

beekay, i do see what you're saying, and there is some validity there to a certain extent, tho i think you're incorrect. i would, howver, completely agree with you if you can do one thing for me: find me documented instances where over a fairly short period of time a country/city/area has been transformed by prayer and following of allah, ra, or anyone other deity besides God in a christian sense.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

So...to Fig...how can all things have souls? Very easily, actually. It should come to you as no big surprise that all things contain energy. You can change its form, but it is still there. So go a bit further with that idea...and if God created the universe, then all things are 'God-created', irregardless of what form they currently have. Thus, along the lines of this reasoning alone, all things must have souls. My people call them spirits.

To vogon.poet....I think I know that writing style....correct me if I am wrong. And if not, then to use your first posts here for such inane comments, esp. the 'racist' remark, is uncalled for. Please think about the impact that your words have before you post - dig?

And last, but not least, to Dan - if you read through my posts, then you already know my answer to your question. Yes. You are aware that energy can be 'imprinted' right? Maybe our 'souls' (or spirits, or whatever you want to call it) are imprinted from our experiences, our feelings, our beliefs. I think so.

As for those who are born handicapped, etc. well, it's hard to see (understand) something when you can't see the whole picture, right? Maybe it's something along these lines. Since we humans don't have the current capability to 'see' what God can see (if he exists), then it is most probable that we can't understand why such things happen, or why they are necessary.

Here is some solid support for the Bible:

http://www.deoxy.org/h_kaku1.htm

The six dimensions would go to heavan and hell, since they would only have three dimenstions (no time)

Insider, why would I hate him?

If there is a god, he takes no responsibility for his creations. Most people on this planet suffer horribly, yet he does nothing.

Why is there evil in a universe that a god created? He IS all powerful and all knowing. God knew about everything one would consider evil eons before it occured. And yet he lets it happen anyhow.

How could a being create us, endow us with free will and intellect by design, yet then condemn those who use that free will and intellect to conclude he doesn't exist; to an eternity of damnation. He fails us, we pay the penalty.

In fact, I couldn't imagine a supreme, compassionate being who would create a place like Hell or purgatory in the first place. All I can conclude is that either there is no Christian god, or he is the biggest prick that ever was.

i find it interesting that us not believing something, most people (not necessarily those in here as but the general populace) simply because they've never even taken the time to consider it or investigate it, is the result of someone else's failing. you said it yourself, its your intellect and free will. not meant in a condemning way at all, simply observational.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Well St. Seneca then I guess all parents fall in that catagory, as well, according to your thesis. What if God wants to help, but knows better to let his 'children' their own free will, to grow? In that case, it doesn't make him something terrible, quite the contrary. To do otherwise, would be to sufficate his children, and to never allow them to learn and grow on thier own. I think that is called tyranny...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-16-2002).]

Pardon me while I break character, and smack vogon.poet, whoever it is.

*slams vogon.poet into a wall* that's for defamation (sp) of VP's character.
*slaps vogon.poet around with a trout* that's for Doc.
*kicks vogon.poet in the stomach* that's for the Asylum.
*backhands vogon.poet across the face* and that's for me. Racist comments like that one have NO place in a forum such as this. If you have something you'd like to say, you can email me about it - raptor@eyeball-design.com

K, you may all go back to your discussion. While I'm at it, I guess I'll post my thoughts. I don't really have a religion (never liked the idea of following something because somebody tells me to) but I do have my beliefs. I believe in a God, whoever/whatever s/he may be. I'm iffy on the creation idea, but I still have a lot to learn in my life before I form *all* of my beliefs

$.02

i'm locking this thread here and now...


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