Preserved Topic: Why do people lie? (Page 2 of 2)

*low growl*

reborn..don't go there ..i'll just find it in my soul to re-educate you.

a lie
is a lie

is a lie...

is a lie

there is absoutely no good in it..give me a circumstance and i'll tell you why you shouldn't (aside from your dress fucking sucks)..



[This message has been edited by ettie (edited 11-19-2002).]

"what if?"
I'm just a bit curious..

then again ms. ettie

a lie may be a lie but if the lie is good enoughand the lie can save someone for jumping or for comiting a social indiference then it is a good lie but then again there are lies that just ppl don't deserve cuz it can hurt them in a whole lot of ways.then a gain where would ppl be if there wasn't any lies?
I think lieing is an essential way of human life to pass it in a fantasy of there own little perfect world of lies and no true pain.




[This message has been edited by reborn (edited 11-19-2002).]

reborn...

spill...(btw you better not be my net stalker *L*)

ettie

stalker I can't be one I'm to nice...

or am I lieing to make you feel comfortable??

LOL..



[This message has been edited by reborn (edited 11-19-2002).]

reborn..

*rotflmao*...emm you don't sound like my stalker...much too intelligent sounding *L*

ettie

y thank you I think.I like the compliment if it was one..
I don't think I can have the privlage to stalk you..
lol have fun....don't lie that much nither..;-)

I think I got it. People lie cause they think that by lying they can solve problems, they think that the truth is not good enough. They lie cause they are mean, they lie cause they r selfish.

Im tired of lying to be honest, so here it goes. Reborn, you're the nicest guy I've ever met. Ruski, I do truly like you(even if I said I didn't cause I was mad and even if I said I had only said i still liked u to get back at you.) That was a lie reborn =\ I was just trying to gain back my pride.(people also lie cause of pride) I don't think you do like me at all Ruski to be honest, and your sometimes mean to me which makes me question why i like you in the first place. But regardless of everything I do like you. Thats all I have to say for now (this is awkward).

Wow, this sounds like a bad Jerry Springer show "when people lie" but then again, all Jerry Springer shows r bad.

to my dearest blinkie you don't have to question the fact that you like him because it may be true.now the fact that you don't know why you like him well I probably have the answer.it is the fact that he misled you into thinking that he was the guy you always wanted.us guys can be jurks sometimes. that is just another usless fact that you need to know.so don't be hard on yourself because whom ever it was tht misled you must have been a jurk that doesn't deserve you. in conclusion I would like to state that you need not search for the answer to your question anymore cuz everybody has givin suficient facts and opinions on what drives us to lie.and you also need to know that no body or nothing is worth questioning human way of living.also don't blame yourself for what ppl have done and forced you to do or act.
yours truely'
ettie's stalker...

lol nah joking or am I???

and also have a nice and truthful day..
lol


[This message has been edited by reborn (edited 11-19-2002).]

thanx reborn! (oh and tony if you read this like dont delete msn, I'd miss you, you're fun)

REBORN

RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT..(GOD I HATE IT WHEN THEY ARE TYPING AT THE SAME TIME I AM) *not shouting* (god stop posting i'm five posts behind *L*


*huge breath and getting back to serous..if that's possible *L*

if the crust of a human being is that they can't face what actually is...and they need to lie...then they need to wake up and face the truth..


they need to know themselves..no exuses...accept themselves..and bear up what is themselves..and know who they are..and make themselves all they can be...and all that they want to be..all that they aspire to be...

there is no room in that for a lie...for a manipulation of truth..because you either are what is...or you are entirely a lie...it goes beyond telling a tale it goes to the core of your soul...


...there is no lie in who you are...you must be all you are...or you live a lie...and all of us have to help everyone else be all they can be because to be less .....JUST SUCKS.

AND

you have to NOT lie.. to make yourself everything you actually are

Just think here...at this site...if you were to be all nice..and kissy face...where would that get anyone? Yes you can be kind...but you must be truthful to have a new designer/artist come into their own..and grow

tis no different with people in every day life..it may rub them wrong ...and it may hurt...they may not like it..but you know what..they will see it eventually... although it may take years...

YES..you may be a shit head for a very long time..in their eyes.. but they may just thank you one day...(like all of our highschool teachers)


the truth rules..

it always rules

because it is all that truely is...and it's all that truely counts...

to love...enough..to tell the truth...

to defend the truth...is all that ever was and will ever be...

because...the truth can't be broken...it is..all that is...it's the only thing..that really is

it can't be undone and i have seen it in my almost 46 years...it will NOT be corrupted by a falsehood..cause i won't let it *L*

but how do you be kind...while being direct..how to you cushion it..with love and kindness?

My child will just not stick that penny in that light socket and if i see them try.. i will just have to teach them a new lesson on reality...

HOWEVER...

If i think your dress sucks i may not tell you ..it's not any of my business if you make an ass out of yourself...

i may tell you your bra strap is showing when nobody else will and tell you the toilet paper is trailing on your shoe...even if it embarrasses you and nobody else will tell you

if your underpants are sticking out of your waist...i will correct it

if your shirt is untucked i will tell you

I will tell you if you dandruff is all over your shirt...

I will tell you if you need a breath mint...

you are a human

but if you tell me some gross lie LIKE...the tolet paper is not on my shoe you silly bitch...i will be.."yes dear"...and tell you and everyone else WHAT AN ABSOLUTE PSYCHO you are and that you need to pump up the prozaic.


*end of sermon stepping off box*


(god i hope they are laughing)



[This message has been edited by ettie (edited 11-19-2002).]

OMFG!!! I AM A LIAR!!!!
this thread got me to thinkin....as i posted before, that i don't lie...is a lie. i made a mental note to watch and see if i lied at all in a day. and i do *sobs*
just lil lies...for instance, my mother left her friend (who is a total waste of skin and space) with me at the table, and i didn't say anything to her....so there was the uncomfortable silence thing happenin... so she says "why so quiet"....and i reply "oh i just have alot on my mind" as opposed to what i was really thinking which was "i'm not speaking because i can't stand you and i think you're a fat squaty sawed off lil troll and should not be allowed to live and breath the same air as i do". now, i told that lil lie because she's my mother's friend...so it was outta respect for my mother.
oh the other hand, i also noticed that there are times that i don't lie, when i maybe should...for instance:
my friend has these 2 lil girls...and she says "oh, they're so cute" and i said "no.....they're not! they're awful and if you'd just let me have them for a week i'd have them straightened out!!!"
hind site being what it is, i probably should have been a lil more considerate of her feelings and just nodded and agreed....but i COULDN'T cuz they ARE awful!!

where do you draw the line about one lie being acceptable and one not??? and when you draw that line will you put a huge neon sign on it so i don't go past it please??

Lacuna: I agree - lies can help oil the wheels of human interaction - going around telling the truth all the time would be like throwing grenades into rooms full of your friends

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Blinkie, you said that our sense of right and wrong come from God and that we need God to have rules to live by.

Liar.

I do not believe in any God, yet I recognize it is wrong to kill. Why? Because I have two things that I like to call empathy and human compassion. I don't prance around killing people not becuase some large, invisible fairy commands it, but because I would not like it if someone were to kill me or a loved one. Since I know how I would feel in that instance, I can imagine how other people would feel if I did it to them and act accordingly.

That's not God, that's the greatness of humanity.

But if you need to use lies for social interaction then its not worth is because that means that you cannot interact with the truth, you cant be your true self or say what you truly think. The other day this girl was being mean to me she thinks she is my friend but I can't stand her, regardless of everything I had tried to be her friend but that day she got on my nerves and I told her the truth. I said to her that I didn't really like her because she was a mean person who gets jelous about everything and I would appreaciate it if she left me alone. I know it sounds mean, but thats what I think of her. I'm not saying for you to go around shouting the truth at everyone when they haven't asked for your opinion. However, there are just some occations, just a few where lying is neccesary.... for example, someone gives you a present for your birthday, you hate it, they ask you if you liked it, your not gonna say you hate it because thats just being an ungrateful person.(this are lil lies that don't affect anyone)

* about the 2 lil girls being awful that truth was totally uncalled for because he didn't ask you if they were cute, he was just simply saying they were. oh and if I was left with someone I hate I'd leave, avoiding awkward silent moments is best but hey thats just me. Still, the truth remains the right thing to do even if we dont always tell the truth.

There is a greater good even if you don't belive in it. Sure, the greatness of humanity drives us to fallow our morals, but the morals where stated by God and he gives us strength to fallow them. Some people are 2 afraid, thats why they kill, or lie or whatever. Oh and I didn't say our sense of right and wrong come from God because what you think is right and wrong can be totally different from what God thinks is right and wrong, I just said that the correct sense of what is right and wrong is God's because if it weren't then there would be no right and wrong. Because then, maybe you'd think is wrong to kill, but this other person would think is ok and then right and wrong would just be opinions and the laws would just be pointless.

And if people where to always fallow "the greatness of humanity" not doing to others what they wouldnt want others to do to them, then there would be no lies, no killings, no nothing because nobody wants the bad. Morals and rules are much easier to brake if you dont have faith, thats why people brake them (unless they r just stupid rules that r pointless to fallow but those r not the ones im talking about).

Right and wrong exists as it relates to common sense. God didn't create it. The Golden Rule encompasses all of the Ten commandments except for 'Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy' and 'Thou Shalt not worship any other God but me'.

Do unto other as you would have them do unto you"

Goodness has nothing to do with God. It has to do with the fact that there are things that we just don't want to happen to us. Thusly, those things are 'bad' and not doing those things is 'good'. So I only lie to protect people from their own harm. Just as I want someone to protect me from myself when it's necessary. I'm not saying you should lie and leave it at that. If it's... say a weight issue that someone is asking you about... They already know the answer. What you, as a good and loving friend, need to do is give them the opportunity to redeem themselves in their own eyes rather then you doing it for them. or you making it harder for them too. Start your own exercise program and tell them you want some company. Make opportunities for them that they can take. if they can't get there on their own then they won't learn or gain anything from it. It will all be superficial. I'm willing to do that for someone. i consider it an affront to my honor to lie. i am willing to hurt myself to help someone else. I see no selfishness in this act, only Love ond compassion.

GrythusDraconis
Prince of Gold - Lord of Dragons

I know God exists and the questioning of his existance is not acceptable, even tho I might question it myself. You can discuss his existance and the things he gives us among yourselfs, but I have nothing to say on the subject besides that he exists and I belive in everything he has given us.

Lying is being selfish, most of the lies are backed up by a selfish act.

[This message has been edited by Blinkie (edited 11-19-2002).]

It isn't a matter of whther or not he exists. He can exist all he wants. I'm just saying that people can be good people without his rules except for the ones that apply specifically to religion. You can believe that we follow our moral precepts because He gave them to us, whether we believe in Him or not because He believes in us. I'm more comfortable believing that He made His Commandments to tell some fo us to be true to what we already had.

I don't see that lying is pure evil(which is what it seems you're suggesting). Mostly because I don't see anything as pure anything. Everything is influenced by something. You have to take the intent behind the act into consideration. Without that your stuck in a world that you can't get out of without being wrong. If hurting someone is wrong and lying to someone is wrong and telling the truth to someone will hurt them... then what? You stop talking? I think it's your moral obligation to help that person as best you can by all means necessary. Just be responsible for what you do and the things you say. Understand that your lie might come back to haunt you, but also understand that it can save someone that wouldn't be able to handle the truth. Again it comes down to the Lesser Evil. Decieve someone to save them... or damn them by telling them the truth?

GrythusDraconis
Prince of Gold - Lord of Dragons

gotta put in my $0.02...

an "untruth", any "untruth", is a "lie". Purveying "untruths" makes you a liar. That's the black and white version.
We all know that morality has shades of grey in between the black and white. Someone, can't recall who right now, said so earlier. These "white lies", as they are colloquially called, are representations of socially mandated "tact" and "Political Correctness". We sometimes state untruths in order to avoid hurting peoples' feelings, to protect ourselves and others from painful information, etc. None of that makes it right, it just makes it easier for us all to get along. Peoples' perceptions of right and wrong are different. And there is nothing anyone can say to someone else that will make them change their mind about their beliefs. Humans hold to their beliefs more strongly than anything else that matters to them, including their lives. Witness: The Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, Holocaust, etc. While religion is the common vehicle for morality, it is not necessary to have religion in order to be a moral person. Your belief in God is extraneous to your morality at this point in history.

On a personal note, I have been guilty of lying in the name of "tact" and "political correctness", and I don't, in the least, consider myself to be a perfect person. I do understand that tact is sometimes necessary to ease human interaction, and use it accordingly. I tell the truth in tense situations when I feel that it is more appropriate to be honest than it is to save someone's feelings or reputation. I have gotten in trouble and lost friendships over my occasional unwillingness to lie. My husband, on the other hand, is honest to the point of brutality. His reasoning is that he will be honest, regardless of how it affects someone's feelings. How you handle his honesty is your problem. We've had a great many discussions regarding the use of tact in the family setting (especially because my family is nuts, but that's beside the point!)

This pointless arguing back and forth over why people lie is futile. Ultimately, all lies hurt someone, and all lies come back to bite you in the ass. But everyone has a different idea as to what level of untruth is acceptable. We lie because we were taught to lie. Our parents, teachers, friends, siblings, all taught us how to lie and what lying was. We, as humans, are products of the environments we create and we are much less intelligent and independent than we would like to believe.

Bodhi - Cell 617

*Looks around at the blank faces... stands up a gives bohdi23 a standing ovation.*

GrythusDraconis
Prince of Gold - Lord of Dragons

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 11-19-2002).]

Ehemem..when you Lied when telling the lady you were quiet because you had a lot on your mind...well it wasn't a lie was it..you did have a lot on your mind..you were thinking about how how much she sucked. Thus your brain was fairly busy. I don't think that is a lie. That's called having tact.

I think we all know what kinda lies we are all talking about here...we are talking about distructive ones. Sadly, even the best intentioned lies can hurt folks eventually. That rotten woman ya had to sit there and talk to will find out someday you detest her and then..she'll wonder how you managed to lie your way though a meal *L*. I probably would have just left the room myself. Feigned a sudden attack of the vapors or something *L*'

Here's a great example of a lie some one says "The software I helped develop.." They just went in and used the software for a bit and gave their two cents on it and now it's suddenly part of their resume.

"I helped develop a huge community site" You actually put your two cents up like everyone else did on the discussion boards or in feedback.

"I'm a trained webmaster" You took a class in crappy front page and now think you run the world and know everything about the net.

Help me god they are actually out there.

well, i don't lie about big stuff...so, i'm not goin to hate myself over lil white lies
when it comes to big stuff, i have a rule. for example (this is fictisous) if my girlfriend were cheating on her husband and i knew, i wouldn't go running and tell her husband. BUT if he asked me point blank, then i would tell him. i wouldn't lie for her. all my friends know this about me...i won't lie for them. and they wouldn't do that for me either. ya see how that works?!

just a note: about the kids, though she didn't ask if they were cute ....it was the look while she said it... you know the one... where when they say something and give you that "you agree?" look?! well that's why i took it upon myself to answer. if she was just stating it out into the blue i wouldn't have said anything

takes a bow, steps off soap box...
So, GD - that last race go your way?
walks over to the couch, pops a black pill or three...

Bodhi - Cell 617

Quite... Tony won the championship. He could have placed better but I'm thinking he didn't care too much.

On with the thread!!! That's awfully remeniscent of Off with their heads!!! LOL

GrythusDraconis
Prince of Gold - Lord of Dragons

People lie because all they wannna do is get ahead in life regardless of who they have to trample in order to get there.In short,I'm just saying what everyone else has been.Lying is a selfish act.No five ways around it

Lying is essential. Without lying, no one would get elected. Without lying, everyone would take offense to everything said. Without lying, telemarketers would die from starvation.

Lying has been going on since the stone age ("Hey Thag, I caught a mammoth this big!"). Why should we stop now?

S^abaal ud T'a johtizuc^ult'a Fedaro.

You say without lying no one would get elected, and without lying no one could progress in life. How is that so? What, you are saying no one is good enough to actually progress by being themselfs and being honest? You are degrading the human race, there are people who r good enough that they dont need to lie to get what they want and where they want, it's just a matter of strategy and using ur brain.

good point.

it's not that withou lying that those things wouldn't happen...it's that with lying, the person who doesn't lie won't acheive those things.

it's a self degrading cycle.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Good point DL-44.....we are evil bastards nuff said.... well see thats the real world and you just gotta be part of it..........EVERYONE LIES, even your moms did when you were a kids like when you try to ask something about whats condom or whatever they just cant tell you yet its better for them to lie....and so was the USSR full of high folluted crap...the government was full of bullshit heh....thats a life, if you dont like it, its your problem, you wont change it anyway...

Actually, he's right. Without lies, nobody would get elected. Think about it for a minute. Do you know anybody, does anybody know anybody, who has lead a sinless life? In the black and white definition you seem to be using, a prospective senator would be on the podium telling people about the hundreds of times he had lustful thoughts about his secretary, or the thousands of times he's gone over the speed limit, or even the time he drove a car without wearing his seatbelt.


Also, I found this comment a bit unsettling:

quote:

---

I know God exists and the questioning of his existance is not acceptable, even tho I might question it myself.

---

That in itself biases your opinion and illustrates that you are not after logical explanations or reasonable arguments, but rather an affirmation of your own personal beliefs and validation of your belief system.

Let me pose a dilemma for you. Does God tell us right from wrong becuase He has decided what's right and what's wrong, or because of a universal moral standard? If the former, then all right/wrong values are arbitrarily chosen. If the latter, then that would contradict the omniscient attributes of God.




[This message has been edited by silence (edited 12-06-2002).]

It seems tome that a fair amount of those issues that you mention, Silence, aren't lies. At least not until someone asks him. And even then some of them are only particularily bad if asked in a religious light.

To All: I guess my thoughts are that... Yes, everyone has lied at some point in their lives. Some of us have learned that lying isn't really worth the effort involved in making that lie become truth. Honesty has gotten me further in life thna my lies ever have. Based on that experience I don't lie anymore. Not without just cause anyway... such as protecting a surprise from someone or someone from themselves. I realize it might bite me in the ass but I accept that. I could tell the truth and lose a friend... but that just happens to be something that I won't accept. I refuse to believe that we are all inherently evil or mean or whatever else. You CAN lie for selfless reasons. Just because it isn't something most people would do doesn't mean that some of them won't.

Unfortunetely I know that you don't believe me because society has taught you a lack of trust. Of course, I can't prove myself to you so that doesn't help. I find it personally infuriating and hurtful to know this because I truly try to be a very good person. The assumptions of some people in this thread have rolled me into a group of people that I don't belong to. That most people don't belong to, if they'd give themselves a chance. If you weren't so hard on yourselves maybe you wouldn't be so hard on everyone else. You can't cut things down to good or evil, right or wrong, black or white. Life doesn't work that way.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

I belive I have the power to change what ever I want as long as I work hard for it. Yes everyone lies, we are human after all. But you are missing the point, I am not talking about "white lies" the ones you tell to protect someone, tho those can be bad as well. I am talking about the lies that can truly affect a person. I choose which ever life I want, I do not want one full of lies. No one likes to be lied to, regardless if they think lying is "good" or "bad".

Now, about the God issue that has arised here. I was not saying God exists and I wont tolerate you saying he doesnt. You missed the point. What I meant by that statement was that I belive in God so you can open a discussion about him if you want but right now I don't wanna open one under this topic, because my question was not about God. Seeing how God is a very extense topic I did not want to discuss him here. Right and wrong was established by God when he created the world, he made the 10 commandments. Plus I belive we are born with a sense of whats right and wrong even tho that sense may change by what we are thought and even tho we sometimes choose to ignore it. I know the world is not about good and bad, right and wrong, black and white. But we should always try to choose the "right" path in life, even tho we may sometimes go on the "wrong" one we should try not to make the wrong one our permanent path in life.


GrythusDraconis, I totally agree wih what you said.

because they wanted to and they have to in some reasons that you doesn't or can't tell the truth!

YOU THINK YOU'RE SMART, WELL THINK AGAIN!

english please?

Whew! That was a long read...very interesting topic, acutally. I had this in college (communication and society), and actually wrote a paper and did research on truth and lying, it interested me so much.

It has been found to be true, that most people lie 250 - 500+ times a day. This is essential, for it keeps our societies functioning. As to reasons for lying, many of them have already been given. What hasn't been said (I think), is that people lie because they don't have the actual time (nor the energy, or opportunity) to actually listen to the truth. Think about it; when you say 'how are you?', for example, are you really asking how someone is? Do you really expect a reply, an honest one? Do you even have the time to really listen? And do you really care? We do this all the time...it is the 'oil' of society...the lie. Because we do not have the time (nor the energy) to actually hear the truth from the hundreds of people we 'greet' everyday, we lie.

Now, the internet is changing this, of course. Forums allow one to reach many, with just a post. Also, it is much easier to be honest. At least, this seems to be true. However, thousands of years of social 'programming' are hard to overcome. It does seem, though, that Forums do seem to be much more 'honest', then RL.

Now, truth. Actually, studies have proven that the human brain is prone to tell the truth. This is because it is hard-wired to give actual information according to the experiences had. To lie, the brain must do more work. Because it is inherent that lifeforms save energy where possible, beíng hard-wired allows us to save energy, where applicable. But because we live in societies, it actually is easier to save energy by lying. This is because of the mass of humanity that one comes in contact with. In very small groups, lying is actually less, as studies have shown. Between just two people, lying is even less.

One interesting thing - body language. It is almost impossible to lie, with ones body. The signals (non-verbal) that we send out with body language often directly contradict our actual words. Only someone who has been trained (or who is aware, and has learned), can lie with the body. This also seems to be hard-wired.

So, one can conclude, that we humans are truthful, in nature. Only the fact that we live in societies, have changed this. We see this everyday - we wear clothes, for various reasons, make-up, perfumes and deoderants, etc. Most of the things we have are designed to disguise, impress or to influence. All are forms of lying. With the lie, it is easier to get what we want.

On a final note - everything that you have just read, is a lie.

Blinkie, thanks for clearing that up and I apologize if I read it the wrong way. I can understand your desire to stay on topic.

Also, I believe we have to agree on some type of definition for lies before being able to argue them productively.

And, Yannah, punctuation is your friend. Don't be afraid to use it.

People lie to get things they want, to fit in, be funny, or to be cool. Some people even lie to seem stupid.

~~badjoke~~ [edit - And some people lie to lure kids into their mini-vans.] ~~badjoke~~

[This message has been edited by Gilbert Nolander (edited 12-11-2002).]

Heh. Definition of lie? The opposite of truth, I'd say...though one can also lie with the truth...but I would consider anything other than the truth to be a lie...yeah. I guess it's really about intent isn't it? Basically, anything can be conceived as a lie...just depends on how it is intended. Since intent begins in the mind, that's where I would start...

I'm interested to see where this will go...