Preserved Topic: Undecided Religion Questions (Page 3 of 4)

Again you dodge the actual point...

The difference is, the president is very openly and obviously the head of an earthly political organization.

Whereas the Pope and bishops are supposedly devoting their lives to Jesus' word and presenting themselves as living examples of the faith and its ideaologies.

I would hope, as a devout catholic, that you see a difference betwen the two positions??

Are you actually going to try to use the actions of a political leader to defend the actions of what you purport to be the highest authority in your selfless, humble, and charitable religion??



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-08-2003).]

The difference is that you and I, Jade, are citizens of the kingdom of God... Bush is not. (edit: well, actually he is but not in the role of prez) You know the church has vast riches, you even said so above. The point is that all of that wealth that is invested in history and adoration of an institution could be much better used for the work of God. We should only have and use as much money as is reasonable on ourselves and get the rest of it working to help out those who need it more.

No one is saying the church doesn't already do a lot of good work. We are saying it should practice the principles it stands for better than anyone else as an EXAMPLE for the rest of us. The best example we have is that of Christ and the church can stand to wake up and smell the coffee on that. You did not see Christ running around in gold and jewels.

But it needs to be stressed that he was not a pauper either. Remember that Judas was the treasurer of the group. The apostles needed money and resources to do what they did. Quite often they relied on the charity of the local communities as they travelled but they also worked for some of their way. In fact, the book of Acts describes much of that and there are even letters of Paul where he talks about how he handles paying for his way and balances that with the charity of the local churches.

This is one of the things that drives me absolutely crazy when I discuss these things with Catholics... at least the ones I've known. You can never admit *any* shortcomings made by the church. Even when they are comletely obvious excuses are made when it would be much better in my estimation to acknowledge them and fix the damn things!!! I still remember the molestation scandal and how I knew about this a decade before the latest flurry of charges came out. I could not for the life of me understand why the church insisted on covering up this behavior.

I must say, sadly, that I believe the church has put *itself* and its own failed theological premise of infallibility before God work. This is a very serious charge and were it one of my own, I would be every bit as direct as I just was. Just because the church is viewed as mystically and infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost does not mean that it is exempt from God's wrath when it goes astray and refuses to see the problems it has allowed to creep in over the centuries.

Now this is not directed at you primarily, Jade, but you do seem to dodge some of these charges when they come up. I want to hear from you about whether you acknowledge any of these failings about your church or not? Or is it part of the faith that to do so is prohibited? As a catholic, how much can you criticize your leadership?

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 10-08-2003).]

Yes. I agree. Well put and a lot of your post has truth Bugs.

Yes. My church has big time human failings throughout history and even today.

I get upset all the time with a priest about this or that. I don't understand his logic sometimes. I am not suppose to criticize but pray for them & help them but I get very irritated and fustrated. But I must remember they are human first and make mistakes too.

But I believe you shouldn't judge the church as a whole on the shortcomings of a few. That is unfair.

Thats like saying since Jade Theresa is Catholic, lets blame her for the priest actions, like she commited the crime. She deserves to feel our disgust and hatred for a act done by one of her people. Lets vent out ourr anger at her and go stone her for it. Then we can feel better, since we ourselve are guilty of no crime. So please feel free to keep bringing the subject up so we can remind her of how bad she is because of who she associates with.

What if your mother was a prostitute or a thief? Should you be judged for her actions and looked upon as unworthy. Or if you were born illegimate and a bastard, shoud you be scarred for the rest of you life as an undesirable. Should you be judged as once a cheater, always a cheater? That wouldn't be fair. People expect the christian people to be perfect. They are not.

The church has not reached her perfect state because she is made up of a body of imperfected humans. We were all born falling short of the perfected state that God intended for us. So we are born wounded. Since we make up the chruch, the church is wounded and fails. This would include all christian churches. So this being said means she can strive for perfection with the help of Jesus Christ just like we humans are called to do.
I know we have discussed the scandal b-4 and it keeps coming up, but you have to remember it was a US Catholic scandal. Not a worldwide scandal. Should you judge the catholics in Spain, Yugoslavia, Mexico and Rome? It was a local scandal that hit and hurt all. It was a terrible crime and many hearts were heavy hurt because of it. But the church has a chance to redeem itself just like a killer on death row does.

The church has admitted her mistake and has issued many apologies.
Even the pope has issued apologies to the hurt victims even though he did not commit any scandal. What else do you want Catholics to do?

First of all, the "scandal" as you call it (I think scandal is far too narrow-scoped to cover something of this nature...), happened all over the US. I wouldn't really call that "local".

Secondly, it happened over the course (that we are currently aware of) of more than 50 years.

Thirdly, the church - the people in charge, the people with authority - moved many of the pedophile scumbags who should have been sent to their deaths from town to town, church to church, victim to hapless victim.

These weren't the small, isolate, 'regrettable' incidents you seem to want to make them.

They were relatively widespread, over a long period of time, involving many people in the church heirarchy, and scarring for life thousands of innocent children.

The church tried for decades to simply sweep this under the carpet as if it never happened, meanwhile allowing it to continue happening.

Many of the preists are still priests!

But....the pope apologized. Oh. ok. That's better

You spoke of people needing to wake up and smell the coffee......?

DL.

Its evident you harbored bias and prejudice against the people of the church even before the scandal. So nothing they do to make ammends would satisfy you, since you have such high standards and seem to be an unforgiving person. But then again the church doesn't have to be accountable to you for its actions. So go on and think the worst of the people of the church your whole life if it makes you feel good. I don' think the church faithful will loose any sleep if a few athiest can't see past forgiveness. If its of your opinion that the people of the whole church are responsible for the actions of a few and should be treated with contempt the rest their living days then your the one with the problem. Your not even a believer of God, so why have an opinion at all on the subject. If God can show mercy to these priest if they are truly sorry and repent, then thats all that matters.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-09-2003).]

I wasn't even born before the "scandal".

Hard to hold prejudice when you're not born yet

And quite frankly, if there were a god who would show mercy on those priests, I want no part of him. Your efforts to belittle the vast and horrid effect this "scandal" has had on so many children tells far more about you than the empty words you speak about the greatness of your faith and the glory of your religion.

Of course, once again, rather than address the point, you turn to insulting me and inferring things I've never alluded to from my post.

I never said all catholics are accountable for what happened. But you continue to delude your self that it was merely a small incident involving jsut a couple of priests, and you seem to think somehow that it was only a couple of recent incidents...

quote:

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But then again the church doesn't have to be accountable to you for its actions

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No, it most certainly does not.

But it most certainly *does* need to be accountable to the people who suffered because of its ineptness, its blind eyes, its calculated coverups, and its propagation of the circumstances that allowed priests to molest young children.

You have more bias and prejudice than I could possibly muster.
Please, for your own sake, take a REAL look at the situation for a change...and at least *accept* the truth before trying to defend it.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-09-2003).]

If a priest who molested a child were truly repentant then of course there is forgiveness and healing first from God and from the church. That is the way it should be because we are ALL in that boat of being guilty of sin.

HOWEVER, said priest should be defrocked and removed from ANY position of leadership in the church and should NEVER be allowed to be near children alone EVER again in his ENTIRE LIFE.

Why did the church not know this? This was a mistake of tremendous proportion. I think it actually goes beyond a mistake and consider it gross negligence. At worst I fear it had something to do with *protecting* itself from looking bad. That would mean that the church had lost it's way so badly that it forgot why it exists.

A very good Catholic friend of mine put it this way. The priests who did this not only hurt the body of these children but they *murdered* their souls. You have no idea how serious that is. It pains me to say this but a child that was killed would go straight to God but a child that has this done to him/her may never be able to get back to God because of all the damage.

I don't understand how these priests could be moved from parish to parish and allowed to do the same thing repeatedly.

This sort of thing is not limited to the Catholic church. There have been ministers in our churches who have molested kids and they have been dealt with accordingly. I think we are all outraged at the crime, but it's the remedy that has been misapplied in these cases and that I can see no excuse for.

. . : slicePuzzle

And quite frankly, if there were a god who would show mercy on those priests, I want no part of him. Your efforts to belittle the vast and horrid effect this "scandal" has had on so many children tells far more about you than the empty words you speak about the greatness of your faith and the glory of your religion.

Yes, Yes, Yes. I am an empty horrid cold person with no feelings. I will surely suffer the pains of hell like these priest because I believe God is a forgiving God and is boundless in mercy. Better yet may all catholics be dammed to hell for their careless attitude. All the past popes too should be dammed to hell too along with all the people who commited sins against humanity in history. There are you satisifed?

Who appointed you judge and jury?

I hope you can forgive your own children if they do something bad.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 10-09-2003).]

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

At least you're consistent in *something* jade

I think what bothers me the most about talking with christians, Catholics in particular, is their indignant defense of their religion. Not because they shouldn't defend their religion, but because they defend it as though the issues never happened or weren't that big a deal. Admit that it is a big issue, understand that we can't/won't/don't judge all peoples based on the actions of the few. Defend the faith instead of attacking other people's perfectly logical and justified opinions.

Stop answering with questions. Stop answering with insults. Stop answering with convoluted logic that doesn't lead anywhere. Stop answering with assumptions. Just answer with the truth.

None of the rest of it gets us anywhere and perpetuates the belief that lots of christians are blinded to discussing things objectively. I don't want to believe that of you but you're leaving me little room for another option.



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 10-09-2003).]

Ok guys he said that theology is like the booster of the signal



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

uh.....


and?

Well if the signal is not boosted, you do not recieve or recieve it garbaled correct? If a network cable goes beyond its distance and the signal drops off, then your not going to get the message on the other end. If a wireless network only has a radius of 2 miles and you live 3 miles away chances are your not going to connect, you may be able to see the network but not connect to it. In the same way if we don't obey God (theology) in the context of the Church He started, not Martian Luthor, not Josph Smith, not the Pope, the Church He started 2000 years ago, then we are not getting the signal entirely, maybe partially, but not entirely. That is the point.


Jade had it right in her first paragraph

quote:

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I would have to say that one of the reasons christianity has splintered into thousands of sects is becasue they claim to have discovered their own way to christ which better suits their lifestyle. Usually they are pastor centered on what the opinion of the pastors are in regard to how they see the bible interpreted. Anyone can start a church. I see a lot these days in shopping centers like business to make money and most of the money are for the pastors pockets. I would think some are sincere. But a lot are for greed. If you have a charasmatic personality and have a way with words you can hook, line and sink anyone in like salesmen. Some people are too willing to be led good religious leadership. Its like selling salvation for a weekly tithe. Usually when the pastor fails, so does the church and in cases closes down.

---

Tons of people have started churches and claim that it goes all the way back to Christ, but the fact is that it does not. What people don't look at is the history of their particular church and if there are any gaps in it's history between Penticost (33 A.D.) and the date that their church started. For instance many denominations started at some time in the 1800's gee lets do the math here....1800-33 = that's a good 1767 of history missing. The true Church that Christ started would have a contnuity all the way back to 33 A.D. I mean you can't really believe that nothing happened in the Church for 1767 years can you?

Let me demonstrait:

http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.gif

From: http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html
(And oh yes read it, don't just skim, read, anything worth while takes a while...)



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

[edit by Skaarjj: Linkifying the image...horizontal scroll bars make baby jesus cry]

[This message has been edited by Maskkkk (edited 10-15-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 11-01-2003).]

So...are you implying that only a church that has been around since 33 ad is valid?

In that case, everyone is shit-outta-luck. Even the catholics who claim to be the one true church...

And are you saying that because a church has been in existence for 2000 years, that it must therefore be true to the origianl message? Are you actually trying to claim that internal corruption, political interference, corporate intereference, changing world views, and the frailty of humankind wouldn't warp and twist that message?

And that if people wish to be truely christian, they need to find the oldest surviving "sect" available?

Forgive me if I seem stupified....but....

That is the most absurd concept I've heard yet.

the earth is flat

Yes, and this is what the world would have to say about Christ and the Message of his Cross, look at what happened back then, they crusified him. So why would now be any diffrent? It's still the world, and it's still filled with relative values and relative truth. Of course the world would not accept absolute truth. And I didn't say that the rest of them were as you put it SOL. But wouldn't it make sense to go to the Church that Christ started. To say that it couldn't exist for 2000 years would be to say that God is completely wrong. For He said "I will be with you even unto the End of the World"

Have a little Faith DL....



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

No, you didn't say they were SOL - I did.

Why? Because the catholic church didn't exist in 33ad....it didn't exist until a long time after that.

The catholic church is not the church that jesus started.

It is a very human institution, that has been through endless corruption and change caused mostly by it's overinvolvement in and infiltration by political issues and people's.

For a great chunk of it's history it was run far more by princes, bankers and politicians than by any religious or spiritual forces.

I can accept that a person would have faith in god.

I cannot accept that a person would call their blind following of a human organization "faith" of the same kind.

Jesus may very well still be "with us". But that doesn't mean that he has anything to do with what we humans have built and defined in our own manner...


To say that the church that is oldest must be the "true" one, and that more recent attempts to bring the church back to it's actaul origins are wrong simply because they didn't exist as early as the catholic church is just......extraordinarily arbitrary and irrelevent.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-15-2003).]

well, DL-44, i wish more "christians" knew as much as you seem to know about christianity. i think the phrase "many are called, but few are chosen" should give us all a clue as to what "churchianity" is all about. anyone who has read the Bible with any earnestness at all will have noted how much of it is devoted to warning against "wolves in sheeps clothing". the sheep know the shepherds voice and follow where he leads. this all reminds me, in a hysterical sort of way, of the movie "Babe".
a smart pig, that one!

oops-double post

[This message has been edited by outcydr (edited 10-16-2003).]

quote:

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The true Church that Christ started would have a contnuity all the way back to 33 A.D. I mean you can't really believe that nothing happened in the Church for 1767 years can you?

---

actually, from your little diagram it would appear that all those churches have a continuity back to around the same time, they simply diverge off the path that the orthodox church took. if the catholic church split from the orthodox church i'm curious what makes it the "true" church.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

Actually Fig

Catholics don't recoginize the split of the orthodox churches. We are still in communion with them. They are in a temporary state of schism.
So we are still one even if they don't agree in the authority of Vicar of Christ. Where we split from them, we view it as the time they splintered, not us. Truth in its fullness, holy and apostolic is "catholic" which means universal. One of the things to think of why we have relics of christ which are his infant clothing, tunic, robe, burial shroud, cross, nails, crown of thorns, clothing of the virgin mary, remains of the first apostles, which includes the beheaded heads of some of the 12 apostles who were marytered. We have the body of St. Paul the Evangelist also. I feel Christ wouldn't entrust the articles of his legacy and mission with a church unless he himself guided it.

that makes an awfully large leap in logic and a very huge assumption that christ actually had anything to do with the the catholic church acquiring these objects, and then makes an even further leap in assumption that these articles are even remotely authentic.....

quote:

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Where we split from them, we view it as the time they splintered, not us.

---

How very convenient and self-serving =)
I'm sure they view the situation in an equally silly manner...

I would say they should be authentic. Why would they lie?
To make the hoax more believable? They are documented as
authentic. You think the church wouldn't use science to determine how old they are along with how they came to be in the possession of the church by historians?

Most certainly to believers they are sacred and tie us to the truth
of the gospel. I know the articles don't prove that he was the son of God, but with all the messages of the apostles and evangelist thur faith we believe Jesus was.

Well DL it may be silly to a non-believers how believers question what is or isn't true in belief of their faith, but to us its very serious stuff.
Think of the church established for us as part of a plan like any plan one would implement to achive a means. You have to perform the right steps or make the right decisions to fulfill a task or achieve a dream you may have. Take for instance a college degree. You have to meet academic standards, enroll and take certain classes required to achieve a certain degree or you will not get one. If you deviate from your required courses and take other classes that you don't need along the way, it will take you longer. Maybe you might get side tracked and decide on another kind of degee and it may take even longer. In the same way with God, God makes available to us certain stepping stones or ladders to climb to ascend the best way or easiest way like a divine plan. If we splinter off Gods divine plan and go another way but we are still looking for God its OK, but it will take us longer to reach the fullness of God.

quote:

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I would say they should be authentic. Why would they lie?

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Ahhh...yes, that's convincing!!

quote:

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They are documented as
authentic.

---

Ok, now here we have incontravertable evidence!

quote:

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You think the church wouldn't use science to determine how old they are along with how they came to be in the possession of the church by historians?

---

...and how old they are and how they came to be in the possession of the church proves......what exactly?

Again, let me say, I can understand faith in god, or in christ.
But translating that faith into blind acceptance of what the church heirarchy claims is true is a *far* different matter....

And once again, I am left wondering what point you're even trying to make...and trying to fathom what you think your typically vague and wandering statements contribute to that point...

quote:

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In the same way with God, God makes available to us certain stepping stones or ladders to climb to ascend the best way or easiest way like a divine plan

---

so, afterall it seems you DO need to do work to reach something as "GOD' I always thought that there were no steps to enlightment...but seems that you need to do shiiiiizzzz loads of works, ceremonies, steps, pathes, before you can say I am with god....

added: I always thought it was all about man and christ...but catholics seem to make up whole lotta bunch of stuff and put it between man and christ....


Just last friday we had a chapel in school and I was soo pissed off! some Jacka$$ came with huge poster and started pointing to everyone "LOOK there are 300,000 religeons that have not been touched by GOD" "He started pointing out to Islam, Budhism, Judaism and whole lot more" criticizing and judging religeon....

thats the whole proble with christians nowdays, they are like self proclaimed masters of universe who know it all.

I couldnt stand and left chapel right away....some a$$hole just comming and talking $hit about other religeons, how can you just go and judge them when you know NO $hit about them in first place..... That was so pathetic man i am pissed

I have no problem when person believies in whatever he wants, the problem is the majority of dickweeds walking around and talking $hit about others and claiming they are all THAT ENLIGHTED and CORRECT



[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-23-2003).]

Ruski: You're ignorance pervades all your religion-oriented posts.

That guy represents 1 persons personal opinion. And, guess what: It make me mad too.

Really, if I wasn't sure that God was real, Jesus died for my sins, I would have to say that Christianity wouldn't be on the top of my list of religions to just "join for the hell of it."

Of course, I only represent one persons personal opinion as well.

quote:

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Most certainly to believers they are sacred and tie us to the truth of the gospel.

---

Well see. That's it exactly. It ties you to the truth of the gospel, not necessarily to the truth of God or Jesus. It's a matter of perspective, I imagine, but I find the intermediary step... unneccessary and yet a nother point for miscommunication and disaster. I mean, it's your soul (our souls) we're talking about, wouldn't you want the most direct line of truth instead of it coming through dozens of filters? I would think that filtered truth would be rather diluted and difficult to understand. That certainly seems to be the case nowadays.

Oh... and Maskkkkk. Could you shrink your image some? I'm at 1280x1024 and it's giving me a horiz scroller. Rather irritating.

CBF you have no clue whats going on in my life. I am surounded by hundreds of igrorant assholes who just critic other people if they are not christians...I have said it before, and am going to say it again.

I was CATHOLIC for about 10 years, then I was in CHRISTIAN school for another 3 years, I HAVE STUDIED bible ALOT, before I decided not to be christian....

I do post alot of quick replays where I am extremly pissed off and am unable to remain calm....

and I can't stand mojority christian ignorance about other believes.

I have never said that christians are wrong. I dont have NO problem with any faith...

But sometimes people like you just dont want to bother understanding what is happening in another persons life.

why things bother me so much....not your faith ...but people who fallow it and who hypocrite....

then state some coherent points and maybe someone CAN discuss with you and be able to understand where you're coming from. if you don't have time to post some constructive then don't post. if you can't remain calm and post because of something someone else says then you've got some serious other issues to deal with.

and i'm sorry, but if you've studied the bible you need to study a lot more. your posts relating to the bible in general are rather far off and don't show much knowledge of biblical history or theology, no offense intended.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

just because I have negetive view on majority christians and I do not agree with them, I need to study bible more?


added: as I said I have nothing agains bible...its THE PEOPLE!
Believe it or not Fig, I know alot more than I can express it here. My writting skills are poor, I can way alot better express myself in conversation rather than writting.

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 10-23-2003).]

Ruski
i think i know where you are coming from - you are trying to find the truth for yourself but you are being confused by what you've been taught and what you see as reality(hypocrisy). if that is the case then all i can say is - way to go. too many people go to church and listen to what some man says what it all means and how it is. nine time out of ten or, more likely out of a hundred or a thousand, he is only repeating what he has been taught. and to many people take for granted that that is how it is. very few preachers i have heard ever take the time to go line by line, verse by verse and actually let God do the teaching. rather they spout some stories about this and that to illustrate and back up what they purport to be the truth of the matter.

bible study is good, up to a point. after that you have to rely on the guidance of the spirit. the spirit is available to all. and it was promised that the spirit would guide us to all truth.

quote:

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CBF you have no clue whats going on in my life. I am surounded by hundreds of igrorant assholes who just critic other people if they are not christians...I have said it before, and am going to say it again.

That's very unfortuate. It most likely has to do with the area that you live in. Also, "born-again" Christians tend to have some extremely fundy tendancies. But, you should realize that it's silly to apply that idea of Christianity to (the majority) of Christians at the Asylum.

I was CATHOLIC for about 10 years, then I was in CHRISTIAN school for another 3 years, I HAVE STUDIED bible ALOT, before I decided not to be christian....

Well, I didn't know that. I'll take it into account in further...discussion.

I do post alot of quick replays where I am extremly pissed off and am unable to remain calm....

Well, why not try and calm down. Take some sedatives. Like the ones they use on elephants: Those should help

and I can't stand mojority christian ignorance about other believes.

Me neither

I have never said that christians are wrong. I dont have NO problem with any faith...

I'd agree

But sometimes people like you just dont want to bother understanding what is happening in another persons life.

How could I understand if I'd never been told in the first place. It's not like you've published some widely-read biography or anything. If you had, then I'd be able to understand whats going on in your life, and I'd be happy to take it into account when writing posts directed at you

why things bother me so much....not your faith ...but people who fallow it and who hypocrite....

You know, this bother a lot of people, including me

---

__________________
War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

quote:

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just because I have negetive view on majority christians and I do not agree with them, I need to study bible more?

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I beleive Fig's point is that, you say you have studied the bible - yet a lot of the "facts" you spit out regarding the bible are very far from accurate.

It has nothing to do with yuour view of christians, but rather your misinformed outlook on the facts at hand.

I am certain that language is an issue here as well, and I don't envy you having to express yourself in something other than your native language...

[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 10-24-2003).]

I sympathize with Ruski. It seems to me he feels that he has had or has a difficult
home life. Its difficult to see God in a negative environment and
maybe he feels let down by God. A lot of people see so
much of an ugly world they cannot fathom a God created it or
that God exist for them. Or why would there be so much hatred,
tryanny, oppression, unjustice, sickness, death, etc. I guess for
some its hard to find happiness, but sometimes I think we look
for happiness in the wrong places.

quote:

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I guess for
some its hard to find happiness, but sometimes I think we look
for happiness in the wrong places.

---

I agree whole heartedly.

Some look to money...some to booze or drugs, so to social stature, sex, violence, and some to 'god'.

But the truth is, the only one that can truly make a person happy is themselves.

DL would be correct, thanks for clarifying. and ruski i actually do sympathize with you because i see a lot of me in you. i was brought up similarly with regards to faith and had some similar views. it took me a while (post-college) till i was able to see a lot of true meaning in the bible that i'd always received in a somewhat filtered sort of way before, and that changed everything.

chris


KAIROSinteractive

eh, thanks for understanding.

I do hope that by the time I go to college, everything can change.

Here's a history lesson.



- Biggie

- Face the Present
- AIM: MASKKKK

01001101011000010111001101101011011010110110101101101011

Amen DL...well said!!

mask - once again, I am left wondering what your post has to do with anything...

Yes, that article gives a little bit of basic history. But it says nothing that relates to the conversation at hand, or any of the questions aksed of you regarding your post.

It's all fine and good to get information from external sources, but if you're going to come in and claim something as bold and absurd as you did up there, it helps to have a little bit of personal reasoning and actual information to back it up with...