Preserved Topic: Perpetuum mobile

Liluth and I went a little nuts with PS... Liluth has a thing for perpetuum mobiles (machines that work for ages without any external energy supplied) and we tried to copy one in PS & imageready... thing is, nobody has made a real PM yet, and ours doesn't even work in theory! But it was fun to work with We made it together, it's a 60-minute job... we were quite surprised we managed to do it in such a short time

whow......that looks grat..i kant say anything else to it but cooool

Hmmm... the original idea was that it's supposed to turn the other way... I guess we kinda messed that up. this version's a little more believeable.

yeah, i like the second one better

so a perpetuum mobile is possible?

No, it isn't possible and will never be..
Energy cannot be created.. and there is always friction..

Mahjqa: the second one is nicer, indeed.. at this size I like the balls even more

~ Ex nihilo nihil fit ~

haha, I just stared at that thing for a few minutes, it's mesmerizing. Second versison is more believeable, but I like them both.

//ramasax

Very nice movement.

One big problem with the 2nd one - you've got balls rolling uphill on the left side....

I think that it's ok, just that the balls have to start to move uphill a little bit higer.

Awesome work guys.

Liluth, incluiding the frinction, why cannot be perpeetum movement?
there's a friction here, but i don't see why stop it. Maybe material time wasting?

A sig should be here.....
But is not.

That is sweet....I really like that idea and I like that animation. Nice and smooth and looks really good and I do like the second one better as well.

Peace

liluth, what the heck does perpetual motion has to do with energy creation?
just imagine an isolated environment:

Ae = 0
As > 0
remember? rudolph clausius? basic chemistry?

the problem is that there is no *real* isolated environment (aside from our universe, in theory once again)

very cool sig ^_^

energy cannot be created, nor destroyed - merely changed from one form to another.

the reason as to why this applies to this scenario is that, if this WERE isolated, then i would work, but it cannot - there will always be energy 'wasted' somehow - the balls move air particles, creating a tiny amount of heat, the wheel creates friction on it's axis - somehow, the energy is dissapated into its environment, slowly but surely.

nice work guys, but yes, attention needs to be paid to the left side to make it more convincing.

- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

heh - almost forgot:
your next project is to do this with a more probable scenario:

a cat with some toast, buttered side up, stuck to its back.
drop one of these babies, and the two laws:
1) a cat always lands on its feet
and
2) toast always lands buttered side down
with battle with each other, resulting in the cat spinning around, just above the ground.


- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

Yeah, reitsma, reminds of the beginning of The Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett. Check it out sometime, it's a great book.

Liluth .. what are you talking about Energy can to be created

Laws of physics, ramm. As already stated, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can, however, change form. Smack a table with your hand. It will hurt and your hand will be a little warm. That warmth is what the kinetic energy of your hand was transformed into when it stopped.

So you can't create energy or destroy it, just manipulate its form.

you can capture created Energy through the Combustion of Biomass

that is created energy just by typing I'm creating energy .. well I'm exchanging it .. but yes .. principles apply energy can not be created or destroyed

Heat is created Energy .. turning on and off your stove is created energy .. Silence

[winking]

Manipulation is the key .. you said it

Ramm - as stated...these things are *not* in any sense creating energy.

They are transfering energy.

*huge* difference... [wink wink...]



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-06-2002).]

One of my favorites is the Hamel thing. Converts magnetic to kinetic in a pretty keen manner. Check it.

DL is right on that one.

turning on the stove uses electricity to create heat, or burns gas. The energy is in the "fuel" waiting to be used.

wink wink...

*peeks his head in*

When are you guys gonna start talking cartoons? Then I could contribute.


-Wil

that animation is just amazing, very nice flow and all at 42k. Impressive.

we have something serious going here

Burning Waste material you can create MORE energy .. ie .. the stored energy or lost energy fro mthe material .. this itself is created energy .. yes .. energy is all around us but

DL .. I do no the different [ME specialty in HVAC] .. but I know energy can be created .. everyday our bodies waste energy .. shit our planet wastes energy .. so we must use the sun or wind or water to create new energy to replenish what was lost .. but do keep in mind .. without the sun we would have NO ENERGY

Right.

But...everything you keep referring to as *creating* energy is not at all. It is transferring it.

We don't use the sun or wind or anything else to create energy. We transfer the energy from the sun, or the wind, or water, etc....

Nothing is being created or destroyed, it's ebing transferred from one place to another; from one form to another.



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-06-2002).]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=energy+cannot+created+destroyed+law+conservation

It's a well known and accepted fact that energy cannot be created, and hence perpetual motion machines are an impossibility. I think you may have a limited view of what energy really is.

"everyday our bodies waste energy" - that energy comes from the food we eat and the air we breathe. Note that if you don't eat or breathe, you won't be able to do anything energetic. (You'll be dead. =)

"without the sun we would have NO ENERGY" - well, that's not entirely true. Energy exists on planets without suns. Even if it were true though, all the energy that we get from the sun is merely being transferred from all the material that the sun is made out of. Through the process of combustion, all that fuel is being turned into light and heat. Energy is being transferred, it's not being created.


Now, to say that perpetual motion machines can't be created because energy is destroyed is also false. They can't be created because energy is *released* into the surrounding objects. In order for something to keep moving, it needs a source of energy, and that source gets depleted over time. It can't be its own energy source, because it would deplete its own energy.

DL .. true it is a munipulation .. but without windmills or turbines or solar panels .. this energy can never be used/transformed .. this essentially is created Energy .. I don't say new energy but created energy .. energy that can be used to power what we use in our daily lives

Slime .. let me revert .. without the sun everything would die .. including us

but yes .. it is essentially be transfered .. but without these creations .. windmill, Dam, Solar panels, and turbines to turn this into energy we wouldn't have any energy .. so hence .. it is "created" in the simple meaning of the word created .. we created these machines to product/create energy for us to use .. though in scientific terms it is just transfering the energy to which can be used for our needs

I'd be interested if other planets have proof of energy .. surely Jupiter has energy or atleast stored energy .. but mars? I'd half to look into this

Again, your idea of energy isn't complete.

"without these creations .. windmill, Dam, Solar panels, and turbines to turn this into energy we wouldn't have any energy .. so hence .. it is "created" in the simple meaning of the word created" - the thing is, the energy is there before the water/wind/light goes through our contraptions. You seem to be viewing energy as movement, but you're forgetting the idea of potential energy.

If you haven't yet taken any physics classes, perhaps you should wait until you have.

Slime .. I do know the Law of Conservation .. and I'm out of college .. no need to say "have you taken physics yet" .. I understand the law very well .. but I think your missing my point

how would we be using our Electronics if we didn't harnest this energy? did we not have to create machines that can turn water/wind/heat into electricity?

Then again Enthalpy is something that can't be explained in just five mins .. due to its spontaneous reactions

yes in meaning we are just transfering this energy to how we need to use it but without these creations this energy we use daily can not be created or used for our purposes

Potential Energy yes .. Internal Energy .. this would be considered the materials Enthalpy .. we harnest this PE using created machines .. and all of this comes back to the sun

you see what I'm trying to say .. I've personally witnesses energy being created .. or that is MORE energy out of something small



[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 03-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 03-06-2002).]

Okay, I think you either have a concept confused or you're just arguing semantics, Ramm.

Yes, energy is created in the sense that burning a piece of wood creates heat energy that wasn't there before. But that energy doesn't just appear, it comes from the combustion of the materials.

And it isn't just the sun which supplies energy. Energy is a property of matter, thus all matter can be converted into energy, ergo E=mc^2.

Even a single gram of matter contains an enormous amount of matter, e.g. the basis of a nuclear reactor.

[soft chuckle]

I am kind of arguing semantics .. I guess I'll chill out now .. energy can be produced which essentially means created .. no matter .. I just didn't like Liluth "Energy cannot be created" comment .. that comment is false in my opinion

I'll stop talking about it .. though it was nice to talk about .. and I wont comment about your comments

electricity can be created rammstein, not energy.
that's what dams, solar power, windmills, and all that other stuff you referred to do - create electricity from other forms of energy.

semantics my ass - instead of creating new definitions to suit our theories, lets work with what we have here - if a windmill 'creates' energy, then why does it have to harness the wind's energy to work?

and by the way, it's not Liluth's "energy cannot be created" statement, it's lavoisier's. and it's been established as a fundamental law of science.

...and i still haven't seen any logic on your part that has caused my belief in this law to waver, even slightly.

- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

[This message has been edited by reitsma (edited 03-07-2002).]

That first one is tight. Dont like the second one where the balls be rollin up hill...

by they way... this thread is on fire.

reitsma .. then what is electricity? I know the answer .. I hope you do

Energy is a funny thing and energy is used, stored, and produced in many ways

I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just saying the general comment that "energy can not be created" is false .. in my eyes

wat they are speaking is is phisical energie not elektrik energy

but i dont care i like the grafik and the idea behind is

Ramm, I dont see how this is a sticking point. Conservation of energy is not a general comment its a scientific law. As others have stated The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form...

If you know a way of creating, not converting energy to generate electricity I would really like to know. Maybe we can grift off your genius and win a Nobel prize as a group. Maybe you could give an example for dullards here like me who havent completed college.



[This message has been edited by moaiz (edited 03-07-2002).]

"I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just saying the general comment that "energy can not be created" is false .. in my eyes"

Because you're not seeing it correctly; matter is energy. Setting a piece of paper on fire is, essentially, causing a reaction in the paper that causes matter to be given off in a less-dense form. Heat. Water turning a turbine causes a magnet to spin inside an iron coil, which results in ions jumping to the coil, where it is more usable for human purposes. Or something like that.

On the other hand, the net energy and motion of a closed system remains constant. Perpetual motion is only impossible if you assume a system can't perfectly closed. So lets just assume the spinny ball thingy is closed and works in mysterious ways. =P

now hang on here, ramm...
*thinks*
*finds wall*
*smacks head*
*and again*
now, THAT made a hell of a lot more sense.
*smack*
and if any other 'dullards' want to join me... believe me, it's far more productive than having to create any energy to type a response here.


- - r e i t s m a - -
(tifkab)

ahhh it's ok reitsma .. I guess you haven't taken your black pill today yet

btw .. there is no such thing as a perfectly closed system .. and I'm not talking about the Perpetual graphic above .. I haven't been this whole time .. but if we want to have some smart asses and try not to think outside the box .. then that's ok too





[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 03-08-2002).]

wow mahjqa those kick serious Asphalt.... "that means they rock"
and wilmonkey, that's a very smooth animation, I love catoon art & monkeys

Rammstein, there's no box to think outside of.

The Law of Conservation states that Energy can neither be created or destroyed.
It was made by people who are much smarter than you. They too completed college.
There are no semantics to argue.

I'm not saying the Law is wrong

think of the words

if Energy can be produced .. then what does that mean? it was?????

sheesh .. most of you are either not seeing what I'm saying or just trying to make me look stupid .. I don't need help in that category .. I do that by myself .. when need be

nevermind .. I'm just going to leave this thread alone .. like I told myself to do a few posts back .. good day





[This message has been edited by RammStein (edited 03-08-2002).]

:edit:



[This message has been edited by silence (edited 03-08-2002).]

Ramm - we see what you are saying. What *we* are saying is that no matter how you want to try and play with the words to make it means something different, it doesn't cahnge the facts or the principles involoved.

Period.

it has been found experimentally that the internal energy of a system may be changed either by doing work on the system or by heating it. Whereas we may know how the energy transfer has occurred (because we can see if a weight has been raised or lowered in the surroundings, indicating transfer of enery by doing work, or if ice has melted in the surroundings, indicating transfer of energy has heat), the system is blind to the mode employed. Heat and work are equivalent ways of changing a system's internal energy. A system is like a bank: it accepts deposits in either currency, but stores its reserves as internal energy. It is also found experimentally that, if a system is isolated from it's surroundings, then no change in internal energy takes place. We cannot use a system to do work, leave it isolated for a month and then come back expecting to finding it restored to it's original state and ready to do the same work again. The evidence of this property is that no perpetual motion machine of the first kind (a machine that works without consuming fuel or some other source of energy) has ever been built.
This is the first law, the consequence of the above:

AE=0
(A=delta=variation)

the total variation of energy between any instants of time in a isolated system is always zero. Aka, the sum of all energies is always the same.
this universe is currently "considered" as an isolated environment
the second law states an even deeper thing, but that is going out of the issue here

ramm, i can see what you are thinking, but even in relativity terms, the laws stay the same, the only thing to change is the point of view

"Lisa, get in here! In this house we obey the laws of Thermodynamics!!!"

You tell em Arthemis.

And HS, you bastard, i was just about to say that!

It`s beautiful day in the Asylum.

Today`s word is Entrophy..

so, if
"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed"--only transferred or changed
and,
"if a system is isolated from it's surroundings, then no change in internal energy takes place"
and,
"this universe is currently "considered" as an isolated environment"
then,
everything was, is, and will continue to be recycled ad infinitum
perpetually
duh

obviously.

I won an entrophy once, but it fell apart...

I actually think the first one is better(realisticaly-wise), and it looks better in general for some reason I cant explain.
(also I think Rammstein, copped he was wrong but didnt want to admit it)

- Hugh

icklepix

The first is for the King, the second for the joker!

Ok

*smacks reitsma's head against the wall* Ahhh...that felt better



JK