Preserved Topic: What is a Hero? (Page 1 of 1)

I noticed that at leas the news and people i have talked to think Patrick Tilman isd a hero, or that Jessica lynch are heros. But why should they be heroes, Jessica lynch and her group got ambushed after leaving a convoy. Or this patrick tilman guy, he is no more a hero than anyother person who is serving in the military. I guess it is a patriotism thing, but then again why is there patriotism? I assume it's a lack of individualism in the US.

Your thoughts?

People love heroes. They need heroes. It seems to be a human thing.

I think making Jessica Lynch a national hero was way over the top. You're right, she got caught in an ambush and was rescued. I am extremely thankful she is ok now but fail to see why she should be considered a hero for that.

Pat Tilman on the other hand is a different story. While it is absolutely true that he was a soldier doing his job just like all the other soldiers, it is also true he gave up much more to serve his country; ulimately with his life. I think that is what makes his story exceptional. I don't think his heroism in living according to his convictions detracts *in any way* from the sacrifices being made by the rest of our service people. If that is the conflict you may be having by calling him a hero then I recommend disabusing yourself of it.

Personally, I think Pat Tilman is one of the best candidates for hero I've heard of in quite some time, especially in the modern American experience where heroes seem so few and far between.


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I have a very hard time calling him a hero. I respect his choice, and can see having an admiration for his commitment, but certainly no more than the career soldier, or the man who chose to serve in the military before there was even the option of a high profile, high dollar career.

I think he deserves a nod for going after what he thought was right, withstanding the temptation to simply go on with is career (though I'm also apt to call it foolishness....).

But I don't see that it elevates him in any way above the man whose first choice was to serve.

Why is it that every instance of a potential so called hero that you site seems to only be in the context of war and killing and patriotism.. and of course America? Are there no heros anywhere else in this world? or in any situation other than these stupid wars? Ahh I forget .. America IS the world.. silly me.

Jesus is a hero.. and King David... and Joshua.. and Gideon... and my mother...

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

I think Tillman is a hero not because of what he did but because of the way he did it. He gave up a very comfortable life to fight for his ideals. The thing that impresses me the most is that he just left the NFL. There was no fanfair involved, not even so much as a press release; he also refused to give interviews about his decision. His reasoning behind it was that he refused to allow himself to be treated differently than any other soldier fighting in the war.

So yes, I say he's a hero.

:::11oh1:::

(Edited by krets on 04-27-2004 17:40)

Anyone who chooses to put their own life on the line to protect their countrymen and ideals or to help free those living under a nasty regime seem quite heroic to me. While I do not agree with the US position on Iraq (at all), I do see those who choose to serve there as heros, regardless of what position they held in life prior to enlisting. A willingness to give up your own life to save someone else is very brave I think.

The downside is, not everyone who joins is so altruistic and my view is probably a bit too idealistic as some soldiers no doubt join just get in on killing a few "bad guys" or out of a sense of vengeance. But on the whole, I think those who serve willingly are very brave.

Amerasu |

heroes are great and from what Ive heard about tilman (the first i heard was in this forum) he is a heroe. In my oppinion Lynch is no more a heroe than my great uncle (a POW in WW1, who escaped). Also people need to be careful when they call out for a hero. They might just get a villain.

I thought Hero's were really tasty sandwiches... hehehehe *j/king* Sorry, just writing my thoughts...

(Edited by Wolfen on 04-27-2004 22:02)

The fact that America needs to make modern heroes like this says something about their insecurity, in my opinion. They need someone to look up to, and the military is very convenient in that respect.

It's not just Americans who seek heroes, RN3. I think all humans do this.


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The idea that this is an american phenomonon is completely absurd....once again.

This is a human trait, and I have yet to see a nationality (present or historic) left unaffected by this trait.

If you have an example of one, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Jessica Lynch was a hero that was made. Tillman is a hero by his actions. Big difference there.

:::11oh1:::

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What krets said.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

Tillman is not a hero, just smart. I think i would go to Afghanistan instead of contiuing playing for the Arizona Cardinals, getting shot at by a bunch of towelheads than play for one of the worst teams in the league

InI, Tillman died fighting in Afghanistan so don't I think your Iraq point should apply to his death. I hope you're not against our actions there as well.


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off topic but... "towelheads"? is that really necessary?

back on topic.... i don't feel that Tillman is a hero. I respect him for doing what he felt was right... but i have the same respect for anyone who stands by their convictions and practices what they preach....even when it's not something I agree with.

as far as it being only an "american" thing... pull your head out....

Dam.. ok.. well the topic is titled "What is a hero?" ..and all I hear is about these two people you all keep mentioning... well that seems kind of narrow to me for a start. To the rest of the world those names don't mean a real lot in this context. I find it hard to conjure any respect or admiration. Sorry. A sad waste that's all.
And as far as it being an 'American thing' that was meant ironically.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 04-28-2004 19:14)

X, so what's a hero to you then? If it is not these two people then who qualifies in your way of seeing things?


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The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

I'm sure war is 100 times worse than you or I can imagine not having participated in it. Of that, I have no illusions. However, the question remains as to its necessity.


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The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Xpi - yes, the topic title was "what is a hero?" but the opening post directed the subject directly toward two people in particular. It was directed this way because those two people have garnered a great deal of media attention here in the US, and given the label "hero" by many.

You can see that most here agree they don't deserve it, or at least that one of them doesn't.

You are certainly correct that the scope of this topic is far too narrow to cover all forms of heroism, and hasn't IMO dealt with actual heroism..

I think perhaps such a broad topic deserves its own thread so it can be thoroughly fleshed out - there'd be a great deal to cover.

there is no greater love than that one lay down his life for another. to me, this doesn't necessarily mean actually dying in the doing. anyone who gives of themselves for the sake of bettering someone elses life who is less fortunate or in need is a hero in my book. i've known a lot of heroic people in my day, and even been one myself on occassion. in a time of crisis, what's inside of one will shine out above what they might do ordinarily. people with love in their hearts. people who have taken time to learn CPR or taken a course in basic first aid. anyone who has actually walked a mile in someone else's shoes. etc. . .

here; http://www.ozoneasylum.com/21531 is bugs and myself discussing my opinion of war, for those who want to read that. I really don't feel like repeating myself as it's early in the morning (relativly speaking, I didn't wake up that long ago), so read that if you want to see my general opinion on war. Now, as for these two people:

Since I'm not a supporter of war in any way, neither can I call 'hero' those who perpetrate it. Jessica Lynch we've heard about over here in Australia, but of this Patrick Tillman there has been nothing. I perosnally don't think either of them deserve the title of 'hero'. I don't count 'heroes' as infallable creatures, but the very fact that these people are involved with a body of people who's sole purpose is, in the end, either the killing of someone else, the subjigation of somoene else, or being a visible threat to someone else. None of these three ends are something I agree with, and so I cannot call anyone who willingly takes part in them a hero, not by any stretch of the imagination.

I mean, sure, it takes alot of guts to do what you believe in, but if that's what you count as being a 'hero', would you also count as a hero those who decide not to go to war if there was conscription? Say the American military called up someone for service, and they chose not to go becuase they, like me, don't believe that war is ever the right option, would you call them a hero? Would you venerate them while they spend time in jail for ignoring the draft? Would you call those who go and fight for alQueda a hero, simply becuase it is what they believe in? All the taliban fighters, all the 'terrorists', all the dangerous loonies the government warns you about...they too are doing the same things you hold up Patrick Tillman as a hero for. Would you openly stand up and call them heroes too, then?

I cannot speak for you, of course, but I don't think you would. Alot of people would define hero by what the media or the government tells them is a hero, and so these same people who do different things for the same reasons are often called the enemy, simply becuase their ideals don't exactly match those of the government. So, do different ideals really make people so irrefutably different that there is nothing in common between them? I think not, becuase I can tell you something that all the American, Australian, British, etc Soldiers have in common with the enemy that they're fighting. They're all fighting for what they believe in*. They're bleeding and dying for what they believe in. Yet I would tell you that these soldiers and this 'enemy' are no more heroes than the average person on the street who chooses not to go to war. They too are doing what they believe in. Are they any less a hero for that? I suppose by this reasoning we should say that everyone, in their own way, is a hero. Thye have to be, otherwise no one could be.

*I will stress it again in the strongest possible terms that I don't believe in the fact that they believe they have to fight for what they believe in, but I am just stating fact. They do, after all, believe it.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

Yeh, I remember that debate as to "what is a hero?" that took place here somewhere before. Also I recall that none of the true definitions of a hero ever included anythng to to with war really.. or being a trained killer.. or some crap about having a uniform on or baseball or homemade cookies and chewing gum.. It just happens that some like to hijack the meanings of words and re-define them for their own purposes. Well, all I can say is that some of us are still reading 'real' dictionaries and language books.

You can nowadays just as easily be bestowed the title of hero in 'some lands' as easily as you can aquire an 'instant' mail-order degree.. And quite franlky.. both are worthless.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-05-2004 08:12)

quote:

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I respect him for doing what he felt was right... but i have the same respect for anyone who stands by their convictions and practices what they preach....even when it's not something I agree with.

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that in and of itself is so rare that it probably qualifies for borderline hero status

quote:

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would you also count as a hero those who decide not to go to war if there was conscription? Say the American military called up someone for service, and they chose not to go becuase they, like me, don't believe that war is ever the right option, would you call them a hero? Would you venerate them while they spend time in jail for ignoring the draft? Would you call those who go and fight for alQueda a hero, simply becuase it is what they believe in?

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i think there's a variety of reasons for dissenting that do range from a true opposition to war to cowardice to simply wanting to avoid something you'd rather not do. there's a story i heard that i think illustrates this:

there was an american soldier in one of the world wars who was what they called a "conscientious objector", someone who was morally opposed to the war for faith or other reasons but were drafted into service and served in some capacity as a non-combatant. he became an ambulance driver, as many conscientious objectors did, and was stationed with a unit in europe.

during one of his outfit's operations they came under heavy fire and were pinned down around a bridge, many of them injured. the young man was called out to help, and when he arrived on the scene he could get nowhere near enough to help. he got down and crawled across the bridge and down to his injured comrades, took one of them and brought him back across the bridge to the ambulance, then took him to the medical unit. he then returned the to scene and repeated the procedure, crawling across and down to reach another fellow soldier, then dragging him back to the safety of the ambulance and to medical care. he repeated this over a dozen times, returning the scene and risking his own life, until a bullet or piece of shrapnel caught him in the leg and his fellow medical personnel wouldn't let him return to the scene. he was understandably named a hero and awarded numerous honors.

his commanding officer visited him during his recovery and told him, "you know, when you came into my unit and i found out you were a conscientious objector i really didn't expect much from you, most men like that are cowards. but you truly are a hero."

the man's response was simple. "i said i wasn't willing to kill for a cause. i didn't say there wasn't something i wasn't willing to die for."

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." - John 15:13

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

But isn't - supposed - cowardice also doing what you believe in? You believe in preservation of self. So strongly do you believe it, in fact, that your mind reacts quite voilently to anything that threatens it, hence the 'fear' that accompanies these 'cowards'.


Justice 4 Pat Richard