Topic awaiting preservation: American Heroes in Iraq.. (Page 2 of 3)

Interestingly while she didn't show early signs of violence the guy she was seeing in Iraq (who is the father of her unborn child) sounds like an unpleasant character:

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Mr Graner remains in Iraq. He appears in several of the photographs, most memorably standing with tattooed arms folded, lording it over a heap of naked Iraqi men. A reservist following a stint in the Marine corps, in civilian life Mr Graner worked as a guard at a maximum security prison in Pennsylvania.

In 1998, two years after he went to work there, more than 20 guards were demoted or reprimanded for abuse that included beatings, or forcing inmates to play a form of Simon Says, with punishment for those who failed to follow instructions. Prison officials did not tell reporters whether Mr Graner was involved in the scandal.

At about the same time, Mr Graner's wife, Staci, accused him of breaking into their home, dragging her out of bed by the hair, and stalking her with hidden video cameras after the breakdown of their marriage. The New York Times cited court records showing at least three restraining orders against him since 1997.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1211992,00.html

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Emps

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I just ran across this, From the Frontlines: A Combat Soldier's View of the Iraq Prison Abuse Case.

Like I said, I wonder if those abusers know just how much damage they have done.


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No I don't think they do - never having fought in a war I'd not wish to really comment but I suspect WS might have more insight into the strange parallel you can get into when some thing seem OK - see the Stanford prison Experiment and Milgram's experiments.

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Saw this:

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I suspect that Donald Rumsfeld is not a particularly squeamish man: one does not rise to become US Defence Secretary by having too great a regard for the little niceties of behaviour. So when Mr Rumsfeld warned a Senate committee last Friday that "the worst is yet to come" regarding the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers in Abu Ghraib jail, my mind reeled. The world had already seen photographs of a laughing Lynddie England mocking the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi and leading another naked prisoner on a dog leash. How much worse could it get?

Much worse, apparently. Rumsfeld wearily admitted that there are many more photographs and videos depicting acts against prisoners "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman". Military officials have already told NBC news that the unreleased images show US soldiers beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death; having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner and "acting inappropriately with a dead body". This wasn't just an interrogation centre with a couple of rogue soldiers in it: it was a sadistic free-for-all of the basest kind.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/05/09/do0905.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixnewstop.html

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Emps

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Emperor Said:

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both sides have lessons to learn here - I just doubt anyone is in a learning frame of mind at the moment.

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As is well demonstrated in this thread alone.

Ramasax - would you care to find the number of verses in the bible which promote violence? Would you care to examine the violent history of mainstream christianity? You need to seriously educate yourself on this matter before so assuredly judging an entire religion.

Be careful how harshly you condemn one side's propaganda while simultaneously embracing the other side's.

This is an interesting article about whether torture can ever be justified (with no easy answers):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1212158,00.html

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-09-2004 21:17)

Hey Ramasax er.. regarding that Jessica Lynch character.. what is the truth about that story? Where are you getting your info from about the apparent rape?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3028585.stm

Apparently she can't remember a thing..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85936,00.html

...and as for that rape theory that you wave as a banner..
http://www.counterpunch.org/goff12132003.html


That kind of ignorance and narrow dogmatism is quite ugly.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 07:52)

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Where is the perspective on things? Damn, you all sound like a bunch of Michael Moore wannabes. You basically have a bunch of fucking kids in war who were obviously mentally incapable of controlling themselves, things like this have been known to happen in any war. I don't think any of us, sitting in front of our computers in our comfy office chairs, or sitting on our couches watching our big screen tvs, looking at pictures and media spun stories can even understand the situation.

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I'm getting awefully tired of your mouth, boy. Especially the bold part - I told you before, I am a Gulf War Vet. Apparently, you didn't listen. Apparently you have no fucking clue about war, either. I would normally suggest that you pull your head out, but I'm afraid that it is stuck beyond all manner of repair. In fact, your "reasoning", if that is what one can call it, is so far from the mark, that it is difficult to even comment on it, without breaking down into vulgarities.

QUIT LUMPING ME IN WITH YOUR "MICHAEL MOORE WANNABES" AND "COMFY OFFICE CHAIRS" - GOT IT? I walked the walk, as well as talk the talk. Get that through your fucking head.

@Emps - Are you sure you want my rundown on the handling of the Prisoners?

First of all, let us differentiate between interrogation and torture. This can sometimes be a fine line. Interrogation methods are mainly used to get reliable information out of someone (normally the enemy). There are many, many different techniques, but all are centered on "cracking" the will and resistance of the person in question. There are basically two different techniques involved here : Psychological and Physical (and combinations of the two). Now, it has been proven, that Physical interrogation methods are mostly ineffective when applied alone, singularly. Conversely, Psychological techniques often take a very long time to get results. A combination of the two does tend to produce the best results, but only in the hands of experts. The main difference between interrogation and torture are, IMHO, the required lengths that one has to go to, to get the desired results. Interrogation is the art of using the minimun necessary Psychological and Physical techniques to reach that which is desired (information). The techniques used should leave as little scars (physical and psycological) as possible, while reaching the desired objective. Interrogation is allowed under the Geneva Conventions, although the techniques allowed are limited.

Torture is exactly the opposite of interrogation. It is not really useful as an interrogation tool, as one under torture is apt to say anything that the torturer wants to hear, irregardless of whether or not it is true. As such, it is totally unreliable as an information gathering tool. It is normally used to repress, and to inspire terror in target groups (such as a resistance). History shows that it doesn't work, in the long run. In the short run, however, it is remarkable effective, if somewhat crude (that is an understatement). Torture is considered illegal by the Geneva Conventions.

So, what has happpened in Iraq? Is what happened Interrogation gone wild, or actually Torture, under the disguise of Interrogation? Herin lies both the question, and the answer.

If it is interrogation (albeit gone wild), then it comes from higher up the chain of command. In that sense, then it is not a "small bunch of apples", but rather, a systematic and used system, that has gotten out of control. To a seasoned vet (such as myself) this is chilling, as it shows a breakdown in discipline. For anyone who has military experience, then you know what that means.

If it is actual Torture, then I would tend to suspect a "few bad apples" started it, and that it has spread, to others...and that the Chain of Command slowly became aware of it. From what I can tell from the pictures that I have seen, these were not interrogation methods (at least, not most of them) that I have heard of, or undergone in training. It looks more, like some sort of humiliation stuff gone totally off the deep end, ending in actual torture. However, should it be shown that this was ordered, then we have a real problem on our hands, that indicate that this type of behavior is widespread - and that is not the military that I know. In the first Gulf War, we did not treat prisoners so.

Irregardless of what it is, what the hell where the people thinking, that took pictures??!! Of all the stupid things to do...well, that cat is out of the bag now. No way of stuffing it back in.

Whatever credability, and "moral" high ground that we had, is now lost. Anyone that cannot acknowledge that, really is suffering from Reality loss. Irregardless of whther or not this type of activity is widespread, the image that it is, is impossible to shake in the minds of the Iraqis, who just came out from under the Terror Regime of Saddam. The difference being, that we don't use "death squads" to hunt down dissenters and kill them and their family...and that makes us weak, in their eyes, IMHO.

I am dreading how this thing is going, and turning out. It pains me to the core of my being, to see what is happening. The scars of Vietnam still sit deep within the Psyche of America, and the Military...we were just starting to get through that. Are we going to replace that, with Iraq?

I hope not. But it is slowly turning in that ugly direction...

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-10-2004 08:27)

I think I have double vision..

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 08:36)

oops.. accidental double post... (caused by a delay in the appreance of the first..)

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 08:32)

Thank you WebShaman for sharing your experience of war and military operations. As you said, the coalition, and the west in general, have lost the rest of its credibility with those acts of torture. As the day passes and number of pictures and videos grows, this practice seems to be rather wide spread alas. The coalition came in IRAQ in the name of democracy and freedom. I'm not saying that all the troops of the coalition tortured the prisonners but those who did vanished the great ideas they were supposed to promote in the heart of the Iraqi people and the arab community. Now some Iraqi people are saying publicly that they refuse to have a democracy in their country. Add to that, that all that mess is working for the terrorists and resistance who are certainly already planning some attacks to "punish" these acts.

I find this Accused soldier's dad: Where were his leaders?
to be very concerning, especially this part :

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Earlier, his father, Daniel Sivits, said his son was trained as a truck mechanic, not a prison guard, ... -Boston Herald

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Does anyone know if this is true? Was (is) Mr. Sivits a Truck Mechanic? If so, what the Hell was he doing guarding prisoners?

If it should turn out, that he indeed was trained as a Truck Mechanic, and was somehow "assigned" to guarding the prisoners...where were/are the MPs, who are normally responsible?

A Truck Driver is not trained to guard prisoners. I find this highly irregular.

Back to Interrogation - here is a good example `Torture lite' authorized for use at Guantanamo Bay - though I disagree with the title. Here is more specific :

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Officials at the highest levels of the US defense and justice departments approved interrogation techniques such as sleep disruption and temperature extremes for detainees at its base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, The Washington Post reported yesterday.

The techniques were designed to put stress on detainees and disorient them. Stripping detainees was permitted if they were alone in their cells, officials told the Post. Some of the other 20 techniques included "sensory assault," such as subjecting the detainees to loud music and bright lights, or making them stand for hours at a time, but physical contact was not permitted, the officials told the Post.

They said a similar policy was in force for detainees in Iraq believed to have information on terrorist or insurgency operations, but whether those guidelines were in force at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Bagdad, where US soldiers had abused Iraqi prisoners, was not known.

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Now that is the definition of Interrogation that I know of, which, as one can see, is much different from Torture (and what went on at Abu Ghraib).

And this

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The Post said that Guantanamo interrogators must win the approval of senior officials at the Pentagon, and sometimes even Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to use such techniques by justifying it as "militarily necessary," and detainees subjected to such treatment must be watched by medical personnel.

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is what makes me very uneasy about the events at Abu Ghraib.



WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-10-2004 13:43)

Yes WebShamen.. that was very imformative thanks. Here are a few snippets from the reports of the Red Cross and Amnesty International.

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The international Red Cross says the abuse it found in Iraq's US-run prisons was systematic and amounted to torture, adding that it first raised concerns with the United States more than a year ago. At a quickly-arranged news conference, the International Committee of the Red Cross' director of operations, Pierre Kraehenbuehl, said US authorities had broken international laws and their transgressions had been documented in an ICRC report. "The elements we found were tantamount to torture... There were clearly incidents of degrading and inhuman treatment," he told reporters.

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It is the contempt for due process and civil liberties by Bush and other administration officials that has led to the culture of impunity under which these abuses have occurred. The culture of any organization starts at the top, and lower ranking members take the lead from those above them. In the administration?s bluster to protect America by suspending civil liberties, they unwittingly fostered an environment where gross violations of international law and human decency were tacitly, though not explicitly condoned. While direct orders from top military brass surely were never given to rape, murder and sexually humilate prisoners, these acts are the result of administration policies that lack transparency and accountability

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When asked by reporters about the legality of such policies, Administration officials dismissed the questions and countered that the prisoners were terrorists and must be dealt with in a unique manner. Since these prisoners were held in camps outside the borders of the United States, no evidence was needed in order to hold them and there was no way to independently verify who they were or how many of them were being detained. Prisoners were interrogated using unknown methods in order to find out any information they may have had on terrorist plots. Statements made by administration officials described the prisoners as terrorists and evil-doers, promoting the idea that they were guilty until proven innocent. Of course there was no way for any of the prisoners to prove themselves innocent, since they were denied access to legal counsel or a court for legal redress. Bush himself and members of his administration, not limited to but including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft and Condoleeza Rice, stated that in many cases there may not be sufficient evidence to try and convict prisoners due to the shadowy nature of the terror networks. They argued that national security concerns meant that it was necessary to work outside of the law in order to protect America.

When photos of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners were plastered all over the media last week, it shocked and appalled Americans on both sides of the idealogical spectrum that such a blatant violation of our values could have happened. Where did those soldiers get the idea that they could use such ghastly tactics? What went wrong?

When the Bush administration said that America would not take part in the international criminal court, which would have allowed Americans to be tried for war crimes, it sent a message.

When the Pentagon declared that the United States would no longer be bound by the Geneva conventions, it sent a message.

It is the contempt for due process and civil liberties by Bush and other administration officials that has led to the culture of impunity under which these abuses have occurred. The culture of any organization starts at the top, and lower ranking members take the lead from those above them. In the administration?s bluster to protect America by suspending civil liberties, they unwittingly fostered an environment where gross violations of international law and human decency were tacitly, though not explicitly condoned. While direct orders from top military brass surely were never given to rape, murder and sexually humiliate prisoners, these acts are the result of administration policies that lack transparency and accountability. As the investigation into the Columbia space shuttle disaster showed, it was the culture at NASA which led to the tragedy. Similarly it is the culture of extra-legal authority and impunity created by the Bush administration which has led to the abuses of these prisoners. The same policies which were deemed necessary to protect America now threaten to destroy our credibility.

Donald Rumsfeld said that he is fully responsible for the abuses which have occurred, but he is incorrect. He is not alone in creating the culture that allowed this tragedy to occur. In the blame game he is merely the cat?s paw. To hold Rumsfeld solely accountable is to merely swat at flies. If, as Bush says, America is a land where men are held accountable, Rumsfeld should be immediately fired, while Bush himself should be thrown out of office in November. Only then may we begin the task of restoring our values and repairing our reputation.

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QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-10-2004 19:22)

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The Bush team has made a mess in Iraq, but the pathologies of the Arab world have also contributed ? and the sheer delight that some Arab media take in seeing Iraq go up in flames is evidence of that. It's time for the Arab world to grow up ? to stop dancing on burning American jeeps and claiming that this is some victory for Islam.

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From Cursed by Oil By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN. I wanted to post this in regards to the points made above about Islam causing much of the problems in the ME. While I have some serious issues with the religion, it alone is not the cause of the problems. The problems in the Arab world are far more deeply rooted than just its adherence to Islam. I like this article because it brings another level of perspective to this whole business.

And on a similar note of perspective, ask yourself why we are going completely ape sh*t over the prisoner abuses and the world media is swamped with that and ask yourself what you know about the Sudan. This does not remove any blame or any responsibility for what we are doing wrong in Iraq BUT to lose our perspective on world affairs is a very dangerous thing. Sudan? A problem? Why do little coverage? The news media is a very powerful entity and it has the power to shape world debate. We must be careful to keep our perspective on things in spite of what any organization wants us to focus on.


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I agree wholeheartedly that media coverage is very unbalanced, and that global knowledge of so many atrocities happening daily around the world is disgustingly low because of the focus on US actions.

The problem, however, is that we have created that focus ourselves. We ahve made a media frenzy out of Iraq in an effort to paint a picture that required us to be there.

Now that we are, our government's actions are to blame for the focus on Iraq - for good or bad - and not anything else.

I agree we certainly share blame for making Iraq an issue. It is also a function of what you said before about the biggest power getting most of the scrutiny. I will not argue at all with that *and* I believe it is our burden to deal with being the largest power. I accept it as a human reality and we just need to move forward with that understanding.

But just because we get most of the scrutiny does not excuse the wrong doings of those with less power. This is one of the key points where I differ with the modern Liberal line of thought. Liberalism holds that morality and responsibility stems from power and decreases as you have less power. I find that to be incorrect. Some of the most moral people I know are poor and powerless while some of the most wicked are rich and powerful. Morality and virtue stands on its own merits. Just because the Arab world is not a superpower except for its economic sway with oil does not reduce its responsibility in the least.

To expect less from those with less power, in my opinion, is a supreme insult to their humanity. I'm not saying that you are suggesting that, DL, but I am concerned this is a position taken by many. We are greatly responsible for our actions *especially* because of our role in modern geopolitics but so is everyone else in this world stage and we should expect no less.


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Oh certainly.

I think the problem tends to be more in the line of people ignoring the actions of nations that do not involve the US directly (or atleast not overtly) rather than the excusing of their actions.

I think it is a complete travesty that Iraq held the headlines steadily through some of the chilling and abhorant actions in various parts of Africa over the last few months.

Which of course begs the question - where has our great crusader's concern for ridding the world of evil been throughout those events??

Ummmm...the "trickle down" theory (domino effect)?

Personally, I don't think it was really about "cleaning up" the world...just certain parts of it.

Business as usual...with a slight twist.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Actually, that's the idea WS. Iraq is hopefully the beginning of a long process of reform in the Arab world. If it indeed becomes an independent self sustaining democracy, it will be the first one. The hope is that it will get the populations of the neighboring monarchies and dictatorships to wonder why they can't have the same.

DL-44, we do not do enough about the atrocities that occur on the African continent. But I'm sure you're not actually calling for the invasion of the Sudan by the US or anyone else for that matter... are you? I don't see any other way to stop the genocide. If you've got any alternate suggestions I would very much like to explore them.

You and I both know the so called "free world" ignores violence that occurs on that continent unless it is perpetrated by whites against non-whites. It's been a basic foreign policy of the US and UK for decades. Black on black violence a la Ruwanda is ignored every bit as much as arab on black violence is ignored in the Sudan. We, the US, do next to nothing about it and the rest of the world even less. For instance, we walked out of a UN human rights meeting where Sudan was given its third term sitting on the Human Rights Commision. A completely symbolic act to be sure but at least we said something officially. Why don't any other nations object?

Why didn't Clinton do something about Ruwanda? I remember Dick Morris addressing that exact point in an interview where he explained to Clinton at the time, who genuinely wanted to do something, that the American public couldn't care less about a bunch of blacks in the middle of Africa. He advised Clinton there would not be enough political support for acting there. He may have been right but we'll never know now that the genocide has been committed.

Actually, I heard an absolutely fascinating interview this morning on my drive into work about this whole Iraq affair that I hope to share later but I've got to go for now.


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Some interesting points about the lack of complaints and some of the background to the whole thing (a tad disconnected but.....):

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Seeing the terrible pictures of the beheading of Nicholas Berg, it's easy to miss the significance of the soundtrack that accompanies them. The taped voice - presumably that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian associate of Osama bin Laden - rails not just against the Bush administration, but against the torpor of the Arab world. "The shameful photos are evil humiliation for Muslim men and women in the Abu Ghraib prison. Where is the sense of honour, where is the rage? Where is the anger for God's religion? Where is the sense of veneration for Muslims, and where is the sense of vengeance for the honour of Muslim men and women in the crusaders' prisons?" Professing himself to be outraged by the absence of Arab outrage at the photos from Abu Ghraib, Zarqawi proceeds with his gruesome remake of the videotaped killing of Daniel Pearl in Pakistan in 2002.

That portion of Zarqawi's repellent message - his claim that people in the Middle East haven't been as shocked by the Abu Ghraib pictures as one might expect - is surely true. For days, there was a feeling of tentative, nervous relief in the United States that the pictures streaming out of Abu Ghraib had not - yet - provoked the wave of uncontrollable and violent popular protest across the Arab world that many Americans had feared. It was suggested that Arabs are so inured to torture in their own countries that they had lost the ability to be shocked by it, also that Iraqi Shia Muslims and Kurds were unlikely to be greatly upset by the sight of Ba'athist Sunnis getting a taste of their own medicine from their western jailers.

Both these quasi-explanations were self-serving shots in the dark. What was clear from reading the English-language Arab press over last weekend was the truth of the old saying: "American viciously humiliates Arab" is not news; only when the terms are reversed are headlines made. To most of the Arab editorial writers, and perhaps to most Arabs, the digital photos merely confirmed what they had been saying since long before the invasion of Iraq took place: America is on an orientalist rampage in which Arabs are systematically denatured, dehumanised, stripped of all human complexity, reduced to naked babyhood.

...........


A chilling story in last Saturday's New York Times made plain that the humiliations depicted in the Abu Ghraib pictures are regularly practised in domestic American prisons. The reporter, Fox Butterfield, dug up examples of hooding, stripping naked and forced sex inflicted by guards in jails in Arizona, Utah, Virginia and Texas. At least two of the American soldiers due to be court-martialled are reservists who are "corrections officers" in civilian life, and it seems likely that in Baghdad they were indulging in sadistic amusements perfected back home in the US. Like Esperanto, dehumanisation is an international language with a universal grammar, and orientalism is one of its local dialects - a distinction that will, unfortunately, be lost on every Arab and Muslim who brings the photos up on his or her computer.

...........

A released detainee, quoted by the New York Times on May 10, says: "I realised [the Americans] came to obliterate a whole society, a whole civilisation" - a thought so old and so commonplace that one might hear it uttered, world-wearily, in any Arab cafe, anywhere across the globe. The questionable truth of the thought hardly matters now: it is so widely believed, so amply, extravagantly confirmed in the grinning face of Lynndie England. "American humiliates Arab" is not news. Unfortunately for us, those - like Zarqawi's al-Qaida franchise - bent on exploiting the injuries of the humiliated know all too well what does make news.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1215375,00.html

and it is interesting to see this:

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Lebanon's Shi'ite Hezbollah harshly criticised the beheading and questioned the timing of a "horrible" act which drove the torture of Iraqi prisoners by US-led forces from the headlines.

"Hezbollah denounces this horrible act which does an immense wrong to Islam and Muslims by a group which falsely pretends to follow the precepts of the religion of pardon and essential human values," the party said in a statement.

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http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/13/1084289801959.html

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The CIA did not have a trained corps of interrogators until the war on terror began and turned in part to contractors to handle the surge of detainees, including in Iraq. Some of those sent in are now under investigation in prisoner deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. Officials are considering one case as a homicide and have referred it to the Justice Department.

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http://wire.jacksonville.com/pstories/20040512/2151517.shtml

and if Rumsfeld is going to approve 'torture light' at Guantanomo and hide the prisoners from international scrutiny then what kind of message does that send to the troops guarding prisoners in Iraq?:

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US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved the use of "harsh" interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay, including stripping detainees naked, making them hold "stress" positions and depriving them of sleep, a Pentagon official has confirmed.

..........

Critics have argued that Mr Rumsfeld's decision to suspend Geneva Convention safeguards for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, and the transfer to Iraq of interrogation techniques used there, helped create the conditions for the Abu Ghraib scandal, even if no order was issued to use torture.

"The despicable actions described in General Taguba's report not only reek of abuse, they reek of an organised effort and methodical preparation for interrogation," Democrat senator Carl Levin said.

According to Senator Levin, an unpublished annexe to the Taguba report stated that "sleep management, sensory deprivation, isolation longer than 30 days and dogs" were described as a "permissible technique for use in the Iraqi theatre" on condition that the commanding general gave approval "prior to employment".


...........

While General Taguba depicted the abuses at the prison as the acts of a few soldiers under a fragmented and inept command, he also said that "they were probably influenced by others, if not necessarily directed specifically by others".

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http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/12/1084289748000.html?from=top5

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Emps

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A bit off topic..

I have been thinking alot about the issue of Iraq and it's roots, trying to come to conclusion if it is justifying...
I usually tend to stay away from politics and the world afairs, because I feel like I lack information and media is not doing very good job anymore.

so here we go:

I will try to ge through timeline on what happened...

9/11-terrorists attack, claim to be "messangers of god" are Muslims.

The war on terrorism is declared by America and supported by everyone else. ( it appears to be new kind of war) it also seems justifying, because it was stated clear we were going after the terrorists.

The target is Afganistan(appears to be a nation run by leaders calling themself Taliban, who seem to hide terrorists and support their actions)

The invasion begins, Taliban is overthrown, Osama not found. Afganistan is too vast and huge and very difficult to control, alot of money being spend and no result of finding terrorist's leader.

Now so far as I understand, since there was no result at all and alot of money spend, the invasion of Iraq began(not supported by UN and many nation)...why? I am not even sure. The claim was WMD. Not found, next liberating Iraq..not likely happening from what I see, that citized and soldiers are being tortued for "somekind" of information. (over all I do not see anykind of liberation, people in Iraq are not German or Japanese, if we come and fuck everything up, we are suppose to rebuild alot of things there, lots of money. People who live in that nation still have difficults judging from right and wrong, without books, schools, hospitals etc. We can't just be comming and fucking them up removing leaders and leaving the place. Those people cannot do shit.)

Appearently that type of sexual abuse and tortue can easy crack Iraqi people. (just speculating)
And it happens almost in every prison not only few guys.

I still do not understand, why are we in Iraq?
I can only think of Oil...

why else would be we there? spending money and fighting Saddam?
as I understand no one goes to war without expecting somekind of result.

And please people do not confuse Muslims with terrorists...Muslims are very peaceful people, unfortunatly media only caputers a group of dipshits doing stupid shit.
Also keep in mind many of them do not know what the fuck is going on, those peopel have no form of communication, no tv, no radio etc.

I am starting to see the issue highly pathetic.

WS or anyone else help me out here...perhaps I see things inaccuratly
so...correct me on certain things if I appear to be wrong.

More developemts (warning contains discussion of sexually explicit material):

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm

How low is this going to go?

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Emps

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Hopefully not as low as slicing off people's heads in the name of Allah...

And hopefully not as low as shooting an 8yo girl in the back @ 50m in the name of freedom and democracy...

[edit] Adding a link [/edit]



(Edited by poi on 05-15-2004 16:39)

Ramasax: And do you object to capital punishment in the US?

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Also it appears that mos to fthe people in the jail were released without chagre (as they didn't have much to detain them on in the first place):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/15/wirq15.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/15/ixnewstop.html

Abuse was reported nearly a year ago from another camp in Iraq and nothing was done then:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.prisoner14may14,0,453350.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

And it said on the news that one of the British guys release from Guatanamo bay has said that similar things go on there.

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quote:

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Suho1004 said:
[Edit: Oh, yeah, I've been meaning to say this for some time now: it's "damned," not "dammed."]___________________________Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | Keeper of the Juicy Bits(Edited by Suho1004 on 05-05-2004 11:12)

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What if your were stuck between two beaver created structures meant to keep water from flowing, in that case would you be "dammed"?

quote:

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Emperor said:
And it said on the news that one of the British guys release from Guatanamo bay has said that similar things go on there.

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And I've seen in the news a representative of the Amnesty Internationnal mentioning similar tortures/violations of the Geneva conventions/abuses/... in the jails of Afghanistan.

I don't think my philophy teacher was wrong when he said that wars revealed both the best and the worse in men. I just think he underestimated the importance of the later.

Furthermore, what I find to be the most disgustive about these videos/information is that they were probably disclosed by Bush political opponents to harm his image. I've quickly read the whole topic, and I haven't seen anybody evocating this possibility. The presidential elections in the United States are coming in a few months. Wouldn't these revelations be the most effective weapon against G. Bush ? Or am I missing something ? Imaginating that without the presidential elections it is possible that nobody would have known about these tortures is sickening me.

The soldiers involved in these tortures are unforgivable, for they are no excuses to this behaviour. And I don't consider much better the people trying to justify their attitude.

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If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

MS, it's good to hear from you again, it has been a while.

The fact is that these abuses were wrong, period. Nothing changes that fact. What was done was against regulations, army convention, and civilized tradition.

I think you are right about Bush's political opponents being very interested in using this against him to win the election. But it is wrong to say that we would not have known about the scandal if this weren't an election year. The government had already begun investigations into this abuse before it was reported in the press.


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W?s Apology, He was right. Some conservatives are wrong.

I just read this article by Alan Keyes and I agree with it strongly as it relates to the prison abuse scandal.

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Interesting article by Susan Sontag on the wider implciations and problems:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1223130,00.html

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Emps

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Interesting Articles, both Bugs and Emps...thanks for posting both.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

This backs up everything I have said about what has happened there in Abu Ghraib Prison abusers were 'stupid,' retired intelligence officer says


Especially these parts

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Hillebrand is dumfounded by the images of naked and shackled Iraqi detainees emerging from Abu Ghraib. In his view, the accused soldiers violated more than moral and military codes. They applied methods he believes simply do not work.

"I was revolted. I could not believe that individuals were that stupid. It cuts to the core of all that I believe as a soldier and an officer."

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And this part

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Hillebrand said he sanctioned no harsh procedures, and Red Cross officials had regular and open access at Bagram.

But he conceded the two deaths shook up the system.

"A lot of things changed as a result of that," said Hillebrand, who assisted in the investigation of those deaths.

"You will read more about that in the future," he added, declining to elaborate.

In his tenure, Hillebrand said the Bagram facility was geared to extract information in the most efficient, least intrusive way possible. "It was not set up to be pleasant."

But he said it did not resort to brute force or sexual humiliation of the type exposed at Abu Ghraib. He said cameras were banned from interrogation.

Instead, interrogators appealed to detainees' love of family, their ego, or their craving for cigarettes or tea. They were asked the same question over and over. On occasion, they were deprived of sleep.

Hillebrand said he was given the option of using guard dogs to intimidate detainees. "I declined it. It was something I didn't want to do in Afghanistan."

He said he became convinced rough tactics did not make for good intelligence.

"We received detainees that had been roughed up. We found the information they obtained could not be proven.

"I constantly stressed to the troops how important it (interrogation) was. But you've got to do it within the guidelines."

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The two deaths surprise me, quite frankly...that demonstrates amateur-type torture methods, to gain unreliable information. Incompetence.

This last part I find especially interesting, and supports my thinking on the subject

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But based on his experience in Afghanistan, Hillebrand sees a system that failed at multiple levels in Abu Ghraib. He faults Military Police linked with abuse for violating their training, not to mention decency and common sense.

But he suspects elements of military intelligence condoned or encouraged the practices as well.

"You are probably going to find that military intelligence was probably involved at a lower level," Hillebrand said.

"But where were the officer corps? People did not do their jobs. People covered up. I hope those leaders are held accountable for what happened."

Hillebrand fears the United States could pay for this for years.

"This goes against most of the things that are important to an Arab or Islamic male," he said. "If you talk about what would make a great recruiting poster for Osama bin Laden, they've got that."

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I am really starting to think that this type of behavior did/does have its roots up the chain...the question is, how far?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

However far it goes is however far heads should roll as a result. We will be paying for this for years to come and it has set back our efforts in Iraq considerably.

The only good thing, and unexpected I might add, that has come from it so far is that there are Arab voices actually surprised to see high level US officials being grilled for these abuses. I have heard that in the Arab media you are getting the occasional article asking why US officials are apologizing and being questioned about this incident when that sort of thing would never happen in their own coutries. I think the repeated apologies from the US administration are turning a few heads because honor is such a huge element in the Arab world. I can only hope that more of that realization will have a balancing effect on the revelation of the scandal.

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Zell Miller basically sums up my thoughts on the issue.

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Zell Miller (D):
Mr. President, here we go again, here we go again.

Rushing to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Pushing and pulling and shoving and leaping over one another to assign blame and point the finger at America the Terrible.

Lining up in long lines at the microphones to offer apologies to those poor, pitiful Iraqi prisoners.

Of course, I do not condone all the things that went on in that prison, but I for one, Mr. President, refuse to join in this national Act of Contrition over it.

Those who are wringing their hands and shouting so loudly for ?heads to roll? over this seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that someone?s head HAS rolled - that of another innocent American brutally murdered by terrorists.

Why is it? Why is it that there?s more indignation over a photo of a prisoner with underwear on his head than over the video of a young American with no head at all?

Why is it that some in this country still don?t get that we are at war? A war against terrorists who are plotting to kill us every day. Terrorists who will murder Americans at any time any place any chance they get.

And yet here we are, America on its knees, in front of our enemy, begging for their forgiveness over the mistreatment of prisoners.

Showing the enemy and the world once again how easily America can get sidetracked and how easily America can turn against it self.

Yes, some of our soldiers went too far with their interrogation tactics and clearly were not properly trained to handle such duty.

But the way to deal with this is with swift and sure punishment, and immediate and better training.

There also needs to be more careful screening of who it is we put in these kinds of sensitive situations.

And no one wants to hear this, Mr. President and I?m reluctant to say it. But there should also be some serious questioning of having male and female soldiers serving side by side in these kinds of military missions.

But instead, I worry that the HWA - the Hand-Wringers of America - will add to their membership and continue to bash our country ad nauseam. And in doing so, hand over more innocent Americans to the enemy on a silver platter.

So I stand with Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma, who stated that he?s ?more outraged by the outrage? than by the treatment of those prisoners.

More outraged by the outrage. It?s a good way of putting it. That?s exactly how this Senator from Georgia feels.

Thank you Mr. President. I yield the floor.

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http://miller.senate.gov/floor/05-13-04prison.html

Ramasax

Kurt Vonnegut's take on it:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/cold_turkey/

[edit: Ooops already posted here:

"Cold Turkey" by Kurt Vonnegut ]

Its an interesting one - most of Old Europe (Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, etc.) have acted like corrupt power-crazed loons and we have (hopefully) learnt our lesson from it and I suppose its time to let some of the younger nations have a go at making a mess too. In some ways we had hoped that if nothing came from our Imperialist past except the lesson about not letting history repeat itself that was something but it doesn't seem to be turning out quite hat way - I wonder if the withdrawl of the US troops will be used in 'compare and contrast with the Belgian Congo' exercises in future classrooms?

This is also bad:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html

Blunt force trauma to the back of the head leading to death? Anywhere else that would have led to the opening of a potential murder investigation (even if there might be another explanation).

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-25-2004 04:36)

Anyway. back to the point. I hope those people all rot in... wherever people go to rot.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

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Xpirex said: Anyway. back to the point. I hope those people all rot in... wherever people go to rot.

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Hell or the ground, depending on your outlook.

Ramasax

German pupils tried for 'torture'

I'm not going to bother making a "cute" post with this drawing some silly comparison between the prison abuses and this outrage, BUT what I would like to hear is given that there is no war happening in this school, what do you believe "drove" these eleven children to torture the victim?

Earlier in this thread some were of the opinion that war causes people to act in this way, depending on the individual of course, but how is it viewed when the offenders live in an affluent country and are not thrust into a war environment?

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To me, it basically comes down to a total lack of morality and dicipline in modern society. Sure, go ahead and say it DL, morality is better today than ever before. I just can't go with that conclusion. Immorality in the past was less widespread because the means to spread it was not around. There are more negative influences on the minds of children today than ever before.

Nowadays, with all our modern conveniences, immorality spreads like wildfire. Couple that with the lack of discipline due to poor parenting, and this is what you get IMO. It is partly responsible for what happened at Abu Graib, and is responsible for what happened in Germany. The inability to see right from wrong (a rather archaic concept according to many liberals), not enough fear of the consequences, and not enough empathy for others. This is what happens when people are raised by the Internet, video games, hollywood and public schools.

Ramasax