Topic awaiting preservation: " The Iraqi Video " have they given us ALL the facts ? (Page 1 of 2)

I'm sure we are all aware of the sick and twisted Iraqi Video that has been touted around the net, but is it what we have been told it is ?

Was alerted to this and thought it opened up another avenue of possibility ?

Some close observations

I would not have a hard time beleiveing that this is something other than, or more than, the US government is portraying it as.

I would certainly need more credible sources and more actual information to make any sort of decision about it though...

Its worth pointing out that Rense shouldn't really be considered a reliable source as they are well know for pretty credulous UFO reporting and I'm concerned about the borderline (and beyond?) anti-semitic nature of some of the content on the site.

Interesting if only as a reflection of what some people out there are thinking rather than an accurate portrayl of 'The Truth'.

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I'm just wondering how the Berg snuff film premiered on an Al Qaeda related web site it if were not genuine. Why would they feature it?

I make no claims as to the accuracy of this, but from Aljazeera.net -

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the circumstances of the video release are also strange. A Reuters journalist in Dubai first named the Muntada al-Ansar al-Islami website as the source for the video ? at www.al-ansar.biz.

Although the site has now been shut down, Aljazeera.net looked at the site within 90 minutes of the story breaking ? and could find no such video footage.

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One point that puzzles me is the fact the video "is" from Al Qaeda and the 5 men ( including Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, lead member of Al Qaeda in Iraq ) hide their face though usually Al Qaeda's members ( and especially leaders ) do not hesitate to show their face in their videos. But honestly, and as DL-44 and Emperor mentionned the lack of credibility of rense.com, I don't know what to think of the video. It looks like another can of worms.

The time difference between the 2 videos? - all it means is that the time was not set properly on one of the two camcorders, let's face it, how many terrorists know how to change the clock on a VCR?

The only thing that makes me curious is why is Berg wearing the orange jumpsuit? obviously the CIA would not be stupid enough to keep Berg wearing it if they had him detained. or are they that stupid?

If you want to take the conspiracy further, and i'm just kidding here, what if the murder was conducted by Al Qaeda (spelling?) but purposely doctored to make it look like U.S. covert ops had actually done it? This would be bad propaganda for Bush - as if he needs any help.

I assumed the orange jumpsuit was a deliberate attempt to remind everyone of the images we get from Guantanamo.


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I think the orange jumpsuit refers to their claims that he was imprisoned by the US at some point when he was in Iraq.

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Another story considering the film a fake

Although I have to disagree with their statement number 7, about the amount of blood in the video:

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A human head contains 1.5 gallons of blood yet the freshly decapitated head shown in the video is leaking none. Neck artery would squirt a foot long geyser of blood. There is no evidence of that either. Only one answer lends itself here: the video was doctored.

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I doubt that it would squirt a "foot long geyser of blood". Especially considering that it wasn't a quick Jason Vorheese-style single slash that did it, there was a fair amount of sawing involved. And there was indeed blood, quite the pool of it I might add. Since the video quality was shoddy at best and the actual beheadding was done against a dark colored floor, its a little hard to spot gushes of blood and whatnot.

Besides, while a human body does contain a fair amount of blood in it, it certainly isn't under pressure, or enough of it to make it violently "gush" out all Hollywood like they proclaim it should have. But hey, I'm no doctor.

Further still, I did find the fact that he didn't struggle as much as I'd think someone about to get his head lobbed off would, well, a little odd.

Horrible thing to happen to another human being, regardless of circumstance.

Why are people so quick to question the veracity of this tape, yet not once has anyone given thought that the abuse photos could be faked? Just a thought, although I believe them all to be real, although I think a lot of the media hubbub has made the abuse thing much worse than it really is. All I have seen there thusfar is some photos which appear to look like fraternity hazings. All the rest is heresay, mainly from democrats in an election year. A very imprtant fact to consider IMO considering the intense contempt held for the Bush administration in many circles.

About the Berg video, I made the mistake of watching it and it is probably one of the most grusome things I have ever seen. I only have one question: Do we really have any reason to doubt that Islamic Jihadists would commit such an act considering their past transgressions?

Ramasax: I don't doubt they are capable - the point is did they? I believe they did but you can see a conspircy theory developing already.

And on this:

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Why are people so quick to question the veracity of this tape, yet not once has anyone given thought that the abuse photos could be faked?

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You must have missed the news about the British abuse photos which have been shown to have been faked and have resulted in the sacking of the editor of one of the biggest British newspapers.

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Ramasax: And the veracity of the pictures of British abuse have been questionned since the first days of their publication. There was some clear evidendece that they were some hoax ( the shirts of the military, their weapons, ... ) which is not the case with the picture of the American abuses for which one military ( the woman on the pictures ) have even given an interview explained that she was given orders to take the pose on the pictures.

Should this topic not be in the philosophy ant other sillines section?

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Rinswind 2th: Good point.

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Well sure I can see a conspiracy theory developing, you actually grow to expect them in times like these do you not? Propaganda is a powerful tool. The only thing the above article left out was the tin-foil hats.

As far as Al-Jazeera is concerned: During WW2, did we believe everything the German Nazi controlled papers had to say? To me Al-Jazeera is not at all credible. They hardly covered the event, and many of the Arab media did not cover it at all. Those who did cover it started with headlines like "Internet Bloggers say video was faked!" I mean, since when do credible journalists get their information from Internet Blogs? This IMO is the problem with the Arab society, and what separates them from the western world. When the abuse photos came out, everyone in the world was appalled, but we accepted the responsibility and work at fixing our faults. I do not think the US ever claimed to be a perfect society, there is no such thing. But the fact that we can actually admit and deal with our faults is the important thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but Arab society seems to have a little trouble in this area.

I am aware of the British photos being disproven and Piers Morgan being fired. I think the situation there proves just how far and how low the media will go to make a buck and further an agenda. I was referring to the US photos, sorry for not being clear about that. And while I do not believe they are faked, any capable Photoshop user could manipulate the photos. All evidence indicates otherwise of course, it was simply a passing thought.

I really don't go for how horrible they are being portrayed as, I know it is rare, but I have a little more faith in my country than that. Saying that Rumsfeld knew about this and actually condoned it seems a little far-fetched to me. I still believe this to be an isolated incident involving a few misguided individuals. I mean, if the military really was using this as policy, why would they document it so thoroughly with condemning evidence? Only time will tell though.

Here is an interesting Tidbit, seems that a few DJs in Oregon thought it would be funny to make a joke out of the whole Berg thing. Unbelievable how low people will go. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4980784/

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I mean, if the military really was using this as policy, why would they document it so thoroughly with condemning evidence?

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my theory on that is: in a culture where honor and propriety are huge, (especially concerning public nudity, sex and sexuality) it would make sense to take pictures and use them as 'threats' of sorts. i'm sure they had no intentions of letting them hitting the world stage.

as for the berg video, i haven't seen it...thankfully

(Edited by Lacuna on 05-17-2004 00:30)

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Do we really have any reason to doubt that Islamic Jihadists would commit such an act considering their past transgressions?

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No. Not in the slightest.

But does that mean this video is the real deal? Of course not. I'm not prepared to say it's not, but I'm also not willing to say for sure it is at this point.

As far as the propaganda - well, shit, that's what this is all about, afterall.

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but we accepted the responsibility and work at fixing our faults.

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Really? when was that? I'm waiting for that to happen still (and these abuses were reported well over a year ago).

As I've said before - be careful how strongly you condemn one side's propaganda while at the same time embracing the other side's....

I'm just curious, how many people have actually seen the beheading?

I've got the Daniel Pearl video but I've been reluctant to watch this most recent one. I have not seen it. I've read the details and they are enough for me to go on at this point. There was a time when I felt a duty to watch... now I've gotten squeamish about it. I keep running through my mind what it must have been like to be him as they begun and once he realized they were really going to kill him.


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InSiDeR: I haven't seen it - I saw the daniel Pearl video when krets posted a link here and that was enough for me. I know what the Berg beheading involves and I don't think it would add anything to my understanding to see someone butchered like that so I'm not planning on watching it. I may get curious and sneak a peek later but not at the moment.

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InSiDeR: you mean the whole video ? The French news did not show the beheading itself, but just the "introduction" made by N. Berg and the 5 men in black until the one in the middle shows his knife and pushes N. Berg on the floor. They couldn't really show the whole video at a time where families and children watch the TV.

When I heard that news for the first time, I knew I would have felt sick after that but I thought I had to watch the TV screen. I think I was watching the news and decided to ( try to ) "assume" even the most disgusting ones as they were broadcasted. Now, I don't feel the need to search on the web to see the whole thing, maybe in the future if it's prooved to be an hoax. I know the content of that video and can guess the horror of seeing and hearing the scene.

[LINK REMOVED] but over the past few days it's been getting mighty slow. Fair warning, it's the real deal if you get it to choke through the already traffic heavy pipe.

Bugs: It's a bit more... real than the Pearl video, though I'm not quite sure that's the correct word for it. Pearl's video, while certainly gruesome in and of itself, lost a bit of the shock value over a second or third viewing, it seemed easy to subconsciously deem it 'fiction' (not fake, there's a difference). This one, it's... right there. Nothing else about it, you're seeing the real deal. :|

(Edited by njuice42 on 05-17-2004 06:00)

(Edited by Emperor on 05-17-2004 13:37)

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DL: Really? when was that? I'm waiting for that to happen still (and these abuses were reported well over a year ago).

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Sure, they knew. Are you suggesting that simply because it wasn't released to the public it was not being investigated? Do you believe the military should have run straight to the media as soon as they found out knowing full well how out of proportion they would blow it? I mean, how can you fight and win a war without some sense of secrecy. Did it ever occur to anyone that it may have been kept quiet so as not to cause the type of execution that has recently been commited? All because of the actions of a few idiots.

Everyone is so quick to embrace conspiracy theories these days. Does anyone ever think that maybe things are actually what they seem to be? That we are at war and doing our best to bring about a peaceful and democratic Iraq and that the transgressions of these few soldiers are just that? The simplest answer is more often than not the correct answer IMO.

I don't know, seems to me most of you WANT this type of thing to happen and to have it proven that the military dictated a policy for it simply so you can complain some more about how horrible the US or Bush or Rumsfeld is.

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As I've said before - be careful how strongly you condemn one side's propaganda while at the same time embracing the other side's....

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I guess I should watch more Al-jazeera and listen to more liberal radio... Come one man, like you never condemn any propaganda. Hmm, was it you who used the statement "Right Wing Rhetoric?" You seem very quick to condemn anything from the right.

And in any case, if it is all propagranda on both sides, then what exactly are "credible sources" to you as you mentioned up above? Is there really such a thing as a credible source?

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-17-2004 06:00)

Yep. I just viewed it, and I agree it is far more explicit than the Pearl video. There is nothing about it that looks faked to me whatsoever. But as it seems a conspiracy theory is in the works, no amount of investigation will disuade some from believing what they desperately want the truth to be.

[edit] Ram, we posted at the same time.

I actually think we are not putting enough effort into propaganda for our side. When the Iraqis turn on their TVs and radios what do they get? Basically a choice of Iranian programming and Iranian programming. Why are we not pumping the airwaves full of our propoganda? I don't understand that at all.


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(Edited by Bugimus on 05-17-2004 06:05)

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But as it seems a conspiracy theory is in the works, no amount of investigation will disuade some from believing what they desperately want the truth to be.

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Ain't that the sorry truth. The key word that struck me was "desperately."

I think everyone should watch this video; remind yourselves that we are in a war, and that there is a detestable, bloodthirsty enemy whose stated goal is to do to all of us exactly what they have shown themselves doing to Nick Berg.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-17-2004 06:11)

I agree, this video is an important one to watch, if you want to see more than just one side of the story. I find that a lot of those around me forget that this isn't just some simple little mission over to the 7-11 and back.

here's yet another page showing the video and giving a bunch of reasons why it may be fake:
[LINK REMOVED]

(Edited by Emperor on 05-17-2004 18:04)

I'm in a quandry as we made krets take down the link to the Daniel Pearl video and I'm unsure why this should be any different. However, it may b an important moment in history so...........

In the meanime I have removed the link from njuice's post as it was to a site with strong adult content.

[edit: And yes I watched it - I suppose we shouldn't back away from such things. I'm not sure it really told me anything I didn't already know.]

[edit2: Both links removed - they go way beyond the general Asylum remit of keeping the Asylum child friendly. If you want the links Google them or Q me.]

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-17-2004 18:06)

Ramasax - easy there buddy.

I've never said that I buy all the shit being spread around the net, and I pointed out very clearly that I made no claims as to the accuracy of the info from Aljezeera.

I am very much of the mind that the propaganda spreading around the world these days is very dangerous and usually quite absurd.
The point is that both sides are doing the same thing, and you seem to be very comfortable with the pro-bush propaganda while very condemning of the any other.

It's just plain silly - both sides are full of shit at this point. It has nothing to do with "liberal" vs. "right-wing". Confining things to those labels and judging the world accordingly is the whole problem here.

Jumping to some pretty far-fetched conclusions about my opinion isn't going to help any either.

But to answer one question, yes, you should read more from Aljezeera. You should read from a variety of sources, and they shouldn't be confined to sources who share your outlook and carry your biases.

That's the only way to get a balanced view and the only way to get any sort of "truth".

I am in no hurry to pass this video off as a government conspiracy. Many of these websites have ridiculous criteria on which they base their claims of it being faked.

But there is enough that seems a little wrong, and a little too convenient with the whole thing that I am not ready to blindly accept that this is what the gov. says it is either.
I'm not ready to get into a blind patriotic rage against the whole middle-east because of it.

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Why are people so quick to question the veracity of this tape, yet not once has anyone given thought that the abuse photos could be faked?

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For starters, the Dept. of Defense, the President of the United States, and those involved have acknowledged that the atrocities did take place. As its been said above, the accuracy of those pictures concerning the US military had been questioned many times over. There doesn't appear to be the same discrepancies in the US photos as there is in the Al Quada photos.

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When the abuse photos came out, everyone in the world was appalled, but we accepted the responsibility and work at fixing our faults.

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I think this is our real problem. As much as people are pushing the "we accepted the responsibility" bit, we only accepted it after the photographs were printed in every newspaper around the globe. Our government knew about it months ago. Sec. of State Donald Rumsfeld acknowledges that after he investigated the matter he never bothered to read the actual report. It seems rather unlikely that had our abuses not have become public knowledge we would have "accepted the responsibility".



As far as the tape goes, I'm not real big on conspiracy theories but there does seem to be a few discrepancies that don't add up. I don't know why the Bush Administration would claim Berg was never detained by the US military when it seems clear he was. I don't understand why he would still be wearing his prison jump suit. It certainly does seem convienent and it was a big boost for the Bush Administration. I don't know enough about military training to comment on the executioners posture.

Personally, I don't know what to think. I'd like to think the US government is above lying to the public and putting peoples lives at risk to accomplish a political objective, but as we've seen w/ the WMD in Iraq, they clearly aren't above that.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

I think that perhaps an undertone of most conspiracy theorists on this particular video lies with denial. No one denies that we walked Iraqi prisoners around the yards on leashes or made them form nekkid pyramids, because that's really not that bad in the grand scale of things. But this, maybe a few of us don't want to believe that we just saw an innocent (?) man get beheaded.

And there was a bit of this kind of murmur about the Pearl video as well, I remember.

I believe it's completely human to see something like this and have it enact the 'bullshit' reaction automatically.

That could be njuice. I think its difficult to accept that a person could do this to another person but the reality is terrible crimes like this happen all the time. I haven't been convinced that the video was a fake but I don't know if I'm reading to believe it as being truth.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

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...we only accepted it after the photographs were printed in every newspaper around the globe.

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Umm... then why had a military investigation already taken place and reprimands were already in the works before it broke in the media? Now I doubt the military and/or the administration wanted to broadcast these abuses but I also think the evidence so far shows that actions were already beginning to take place to correct this problem.


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njuice - I honestly doubt that is the case. In most cases, people simply become irate and are ready to blow up the entire middle easst after seeing such a thing.

I have seen very few people react in the way you describe, and I persoanlly have no illusions that human beings are not capable of comitting such acts.

As far as the government investigating and issuing "reprimands".....I mean....come on. Reprimands? Is that what we consider to be sufficient in such a case?

What did you have in mind? Seriously, what do you think is appropriate for what they did? It seems some are facing court martials, reprimands, and/or jail time for these actions.


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DL - Nor do I, we are certainly capable of so much worse. Anyone wandering around the more macabre sections of the net would agree. I just think that it could be an underlined automatic response to something as shocking as this, people immediately dismissing it as fake.

Though anything could be debated over the validity of it actually happening. Conspiracy Theorists often don't give apt thought to whether or not its actually true, I've noticed, instead they focus all their energy into disproving it. I hope that makes sense, because it does in my head anyways.

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Umm... then why had a military investigation already taken place and reprimands were already in the works before it broke in the media? Now I doubt the military and/or the administration wanted to broadcast these abuses but I also think the evidence so far shows that actions were already beginning to take place to correct this problem.

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I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about Bugimus. As far as I've read in the newspapers, it was only after the public learned about the US Rape Rooms that reprimands were enforced. In fact, a significant number of those involved have claimed that they were doing as instructed by commanding officers.

Also, Donald Rumsfeld has publicly acknowledged that after allowing an investigation he didn't bother to read the report. This is like a college student claiming he deserves an A on a paper that he didn't hand in because he went to the library and picked up a few books on the subject.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

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Bugs: I actually think we are not putting enough effort into propaganda for our side. When the Iraqis turn on their TVs and radios what do they get? Basically a choice of Iranian programming and Iranian programming. Why are we not pumping the airwaves full of our propoganda? I don't understand that at all.

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Well I agree to some extent, but a lot of loud mouth people out there like Michael Moore, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and the nasty media types seem to upset the balance. The right can hardly keep up because the left has a louder voice, especially on the Internet, where more and more are coming to get their news. As we can see from this site and the opinions expressed here, most of the Asylum is leftish. What is this board dedicated to? Web design and photoshop primarily. Computer arts. So esentially, if Asylum is any indicator, most of the Internet is built by mainly tech-savvy anti-war semi-liberal types. Notice all the leftish sites look nice, and the conservative sites are always crappy. I am reaching here aren't I? heh

I think the only propaganda we need is to tell people the truth, and spread the word and concept of freedom. They really do not understand that freedom is so close within their grasp and how it will affect their quality of life. All that this anti-US propaganda does is slow the progression toward a free and democratic Iraq and prolongs the suffering of both our troops and the Iraqi people. Let them do their job, and when something happens like the abuse scandal, deal with it, but do it quietly. The media and the world does not need to know everything. Anything in a war is going to appear grisly to us here at home in comfort IMO. We all know full well that people like the accused exist in all societies and blowing it up into a huge conspiracy does nothing but harm everyone. We don't want our troops, who have sacrificed everything, to come home to people spitting on them simply because of a few riff-raff, do we? And we do not want to make the Iraqi people believe that it is indicitive of our society to humiliate people, anyone who believes that is seeing far too much false-evil in the midst.

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DL: Ramasax - easy there buddy.

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You mis-judge my tone. Sorry if I came across as angry or something.

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DL: I've never said that I buy all the shit being spread around the net, and I pointed out very clearly that I made no claims as to the accuracy of the info from Aljezeera.

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I didn't mean to insinuate that you did.

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DL: The point is that both sides are doing the same thing, and you seem to be very comfortable with the pro-bush propaganda while very condemning of the any other.

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The other side, in this particular instance, is silly. I could have found more truth here. As for my other condemnations, read on.

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DL: It's just plain silly - both sides are full of shit at this point. It has nothing to do with "liberal" vs. "right-wing". Confining things to those labels and judging the world accordingly is the whole problem here.

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I disagree. It has everything to do with Liberal vs. Right Wing. Where I stand has to do with the morals, values, and ideals of the right, which I mainly agree with. If I was pro-abortion, pro-gay-marriage, anti-God, pro-peace at any cost even if it means a dangerous future, I would side with Liberals. I see the Liberals as a destructive force to the traditional American way of life and the core values which shaped this nation and made it great. I also see their views as a threat to our future national security.

Where we stand really comes down to each individual, their view on life, and the experiences that have made them who they are. To some extent I think you are right, both sides are full of shit, we each simply choose the shit that tastes the best to us and our particular brand of "common sense." What makes sense and seems perfectly logical to one person will be BS to another.

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Jumping to some pretty far-fetched conclusions about my opinion isn't going to help any either.

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To be quite honest DL, sometimes it is very hard to discern where you stand. It always seems as though you are against almost everything I have to say though, so more to the left I have assumed. I never categorized you as an ultra-liberal or anything extreme though, you seem far too intelligent for that. Once again, I apologize, I guess I just came off the wrong way.

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But to answer one question, yes, you should read more from Aljezeera. You should read from a variety of sources, and they shouldn't be confined to sources who share your outlook and carry your biases.

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To be quite honest I do check on Al-jazeera frequently. I have even listened to Air America Radio a few times for fun. I simply disagree. It doesn't always have to do with the "facts" becuase "facts" are spun from many different angles, but in the end they are still the same "facts", you simply agree with the views that you as an individual hold. I do not blindly follow the right, I simply relate more to the right's way of presenting said "facts."

For instance, it is fact that one of the stated reasons we went to Iraq is WMDs. Some believe we were lied to becuase we have not found any. They believe there are none to be found whereas I believe Iraq is a large country and they may well still be there buried underground like the many bodies we have found in the mass-graves, OR the fact Hussein had ample time to smuggle them out of the country. Syria perhaps? I am not jumping to the quick conclusion of crying "conspiracy" at every turn.

No WMDs yet... The left cries "Bush lied, he decieved this country." Abuse prison scandal... The left cries "Rumsfeld knew, it was policy, or they are not telling us everything." See a trend here? All the left is going on is conjecture and speculation.

And then there are those who are less opinionated and can simply sit on the fence, I simply am not that type of person. I am what I is.

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But there is enough that seems a little wrong, and a little too convenient with the whole thing that I am not ready to blindly accept that this is what the gov. says it is either.
I'm not ready to get into a blind patriotic rage against the whole middle-east because of it.

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Well I agree, there are plenty of things surrounding the man that are a mystery. It can all be explained away with a little common sense. Of course, again, what is common sense to one is BS to another Here is an interesting read. I am not saying that anyone who doesn't believe what I believe doesn't have common sense, just that they have a different common sense.

As far as blind patriotic rage. Not really. After seeing the video I went outside and stared at the grass for a while, thinking nothing. I do harbor rage for terrorist types, but I would hardly classify that as being directed toward the entire Middle-East or blind or patriotic.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-18-2004 10:21)

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You mis-judge my tone. Sorry if I came across as angry or something.

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Not really, you just seemed in a hurry to slot me into a certain profile. As you've noted, I don't really fit into many preset political profiles

I'm not going to attempt to carry the liberal torch, by any means, but the same things you say about the left can easily be said (in different ways) about the right. Thus the problem with settling into such silly notions as "left vs right". I do tend to side with the left, generally speaking. But there's nothing I hate more than the way issues are decided based more on which party brought it up than on the actual issue at hand. And I detest seeing many so called "liberals" speak publicly, in much the way as I have always hated seeing Rush Limbaugh speak. Many people are far too eager to go overboard with things and lose any point they may have had.

As to that article - it is as rife with baseless conjecture as any of the sites claiming the video is a fake. I have yet to read any of the articles it links to, but the content on that page is filled with the very conjecture it condemns.....

(Edited by DL-44 on 05-18-2004 14:06)